Quote from: Brand55;908403Oh, and I was pleased to hear another fan of the Savant and Sorcerer cover. I love that thing. Few covers have ever upset so many prudish fans.

Sexy is cool, unless you're an SJW. What's funny is that titties and camel toes are scary but spells that rip your soul screaming from your body in unending agony are fine. Shredding the skin off a human being? Awesome! Cleaving mortal into pieces? Even better! Wait...are those NIPPLES?! *head explodes*

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;908432Sexy is cool, unless you're an SJW. What's funny is that titties and camel toes are scary but spells that rip your soul screaming from your body in unending agony are fine. Shredding the skin off a human being? Awesome! Cleaving mortal into pieces? Even better! Wait...are those NIPPLES?! *head explodes*

I ALSO like the Savant and Sorcerer cover.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;908441I ALSO like the Savant and Sorcerer cover.

Quote from: Brand55;908403Yeah, and it's certainly true since we're talking about developers who started out as fans and were brought in later. But slow, ultra high-crunch Exalted is official and not likely to change any time soon, if ever. I've made my peace with the fact that Exalted is just never going to have an official system that I'm going to want to run again.

Oh, and I was pleased to hear another fan of the Savant and Sorcerer cover. I love that thing. Few covers have ever upset so many prudish fans.

Whew. I thought I might be the only person aside from the artist that liked it. The weird part was the fans were asking for HKT to do an Exalted piece while apparently never having seen his work before. The cover was very much in line with much of his other work. But they were shocked, SHOCKED and appalled I tell you by the final product. I really wonder was it that unpopular or where allot of people shamed into silence or just jumped on another internet hate train once it got rolling. Or maybe I just have bad taste.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;908432Sexy is cool, unless you're an SJW. What's funny is that titties and camel toes are scary but spells that rip your soul screaming from your body in unending agony are fine. Shredding the skin off a human being? Awesome! Cleaving mortal into pieces? Even better! Wait...are those NIPPLES?! *head explodes*

The reaction to that cover is one of the shitstorms that has me convinced that the ostensible gaming community online has a stick very far up its collective backside. But its not atypical for the US. Violence and gore okay, nudity or sex: OUTRAGE!

Hell considering the Black and White Treatise had a two page spread picture of The Lover Clad in Raiment of Tears that had her entire ass showing its hardly like it was only scantily clad sorceress in Exalted.

Any one have any opinion on the new take on the Immaculate Order?

Quote from: Nexus;908457Any one have any opinion on the new take on the Immaculate Order?

Which is?

Quote from: Warboss Squee;908466Which is?

I was referring to the current line of discussion on the main rpg.net thread. Shouldn't have assumed people were following it. I'll dig up the relevant posts to keep things accurate. But it'll take some time.

Long story short, the new official line is that the savants and higher ups in the Immaculate Order (and not just the siddies behind it) knew all along that the whole "Solars are anathema sun-stealing demons" is bullshit, but they still feed the tale to the unwashed masses because the truth ("Solars were architect of a great era but their power got them crazy so we shall not allow them to rise again") would be too hard to understand for the peasants.

Frankly I don't see the big deal. Exalted "official canon" is so fucked up by now that if you want any decent amount of coherency you need to rewrite major parts of it anyway; this is a minor blip at most.

Here ya go.


Like most things Exalted this edition, its long and immense

Quote from: Aquillion;20261908My reading of it is that it's like how real-world Evangelical Christianity approaches some of the contradictions between the popular version of their faith and what's written in the bible, especially when it comes to insisting on eg. everything there being literally true and written by the hand of god...  any actual religious scholar knows that they have to take a slightly more nuanced approach.

There's basically a sort of tiered approach to understanding it.  The version of history that most peasants learn is intended to be easy to understand and digest and to get across the main political message, even if it contradicts history.  No mention of the term Solar Exalted, the Anathema are demons who ruled for a while and then got killed when the Immaculate Dragons, who rule Heaven, decided to empower the Terrestrials to stop them, everyone hated them because they were oppressive tyrants, etc.  This version also blurs the Primordial War and the Usurpation into one event (with maybe a short period of time between them when the Anathema-demons managed to rule people without their demon overlords or something.)

Then you have a more nuanced version intended for (and developed by) scholars who have a clearer view of the actual First Age.  This one is written more like an Immaculate apologia, from a somewhat defensive perspective, intended to answer the issues scholars run into when encountering books or gods who contradict the "peasant" version.  It's also something they're a bit careful about talking about in public, since it involves contradiction the "popular" version on a few points and could get you into arguments or imperil your academic career if you  talk about it to the wrong person - the really good scholars in the Realm know eg. just how widespread the worship of the UCS used to be or how Anathema clearly and obviously (at least publicly) revered him rather than demons, or would know that the Primordial War and the Usurpation were clearly-distinct events separated by a significant gap in time, or would know that the Immaculate Dragons have never ruled Heaven, and if you wanted to write a really good treatise that other scholars would take seriously, you'd have to acknowledge these things; but they're also smart enough that they wouldn't talk about it in public.

Generally they'd have an accurate view of the broad outline of the First Age and the Usurpation, but they'd still write from an Immaculate perspective.  Some of them would still hold to the fact that the Anathema used stolen power (and that their fealty to the sun was a ruse), with whatever contortions necessary to support this; others would basically recognize that Anathema were once "legitimate" Exalted, but would argue that they were corrupted and went mad (which is, well, basically accurate.)

But it's important to recognize that the political power of the Realm allows it to enforce a view of history even if its scholars know better.  The version of the Immaculate Faith that most scholars at the Heptagram hold to (if they still hold to any at all, which isn't, of course, a given) is radically different from what most peasants are taught, and those scholars, if they've managed to build a career at the Heptagram and were able to get tenure or whatever it has, probably know enough about the political realities of their world that they're not going to push things in public.  There are things you can say and can't say if you want your academic career to say on track, and any competent scholar of history in the Realm is going to understand this.

(Again, I feel Evangelical Christianity is a good example here - many of the things it says about the their religion and the Bible at a pop-culture level are blatantly and easily falsifiable by any competent scholar of biblical history.  Like, not a matter of belief or disbelief, it's just blatantly wrong in the sense that it contradicts the text and everything we know about it, and the teachers at Evangelical colleges know this perfectly well.  They also know that there are some things that, if they say them, will cost them their jobs and get them stamped as heretical, so they don't.  For instance, when the president of your college says that all of the apostles were first-hand accounts of Jesus' life, you smile and nod and don't say anything about the Synoptic Problem or the real-world timeframe they were probably written in.  This doesn't mean, note, that those scholars are not believers; they just have to take a somewhat more nuanced view on some aspects of their faith in order to incorporate facts that the political establishment finds it easier to ignore for the sake of producing an easily-palatable story.)

Quote from: Holden;20261948Pop-culture-level Immaculate theology probably doesn't talk about the origins of Creation at all, and I imagine most peasants, if you pressed them on the point, would guess that the Elemental Dragons made the world-- they've simply never received any religious instruction on the subject. "In the beginning" isn't a central phrase in the Immaculate Philosophy. Otherwise, yeah, this is on point.

Addendum: Actual complete religious non-adherence is pretty rare in the Realm, since the Philosophy's claims about reincarnation and worthiness of the soul are a) very flattering to the Dragon-Blooded, b) unverifiable, and thus also c) unfalsifiable. Heptagram students are pretty well-prepared to handle ideas like "it turns out the Anathema weren't evil 24 hours of the day, 7 days a week," since they're studying demonology at that school and it doesn't take long to figure out that actual genuine demons are sometimes nice, generous, open-hearted, or even well-intentioned in some kind of screwed up way, or that this doesn't render them any less dangerous. The most common form of theistic non-adherence you're going to run into are scholars who conclude that while the Elemental Dragons are certainly real, transcendental beings, and the central axis of Creation's cosmology, the Immaculate Dragons are probably historical fictions cobbled together from the exploits of various real heroes to embody the virtues of the Elemental Dragons (or, that if they were real figures, they have gotten a lot of apocryphal clutter stuck onto them post-hoc and may not have actually been mortal incarnations of the Elemental Dragons to any greater degree than any other Dragon-Blooded is).

Quote from: Jürgen Hubert;20261965So... basically some Anathema might be described as Lucifer Morningstar? With good intentions causing ruin in the end, because of the source of their powers?

Because that would fit very well with observed evidence, and would allow members of the Wyld Hunt to have pity with individual Anathema without being deterred from their duty.

Quote from: CowboyEnergy;20261977I have heard that Anathema are described as not necessarily always being evil, but being innately selfish. Therefore, even if they don't intend to actually cause harm, their hubris against the natural and rightful order will inevitably manifest itself, and with their incredible powers cause untold misery. Therefore, they must be killed for the greater good. That's also why you need to kill the Anathema even if he or she seems to be doing good things. Yes, they might be good now, but eventually their hubris will manifest.

Quote from: Holden;20262211The Immaculate Philosophy posits rebellion against the natural and rightful order as the fundamental root of all evil and discord, so it's not really a distinction they'd appreciate or articulate.

Once upon a time, the Solar Exalted became the rulers of the world through canny application of their sheer power and their overwhelming charisma, displacing the Dragon-Blooded who, as spiritually elevated individuals who earned that position through lifetimes of wisdom rather than a single moment of reckless heroism, should rightly have held it. And to their shame, many Dragon-Blooded acceded to this state of affairs, having been won over by the radiant glory of the Solars. In accordance to their nature, the Solars tamed the wild Lunar Exalted, and made an accord of all the various heroes of humanity, and raised up a great and shining age-- but because it all grew out of that fundamental perversion of the natural order of the cosmos, it ultimately bore poisoned fruit and grew corrupt and terrible, and had to be burned down that order could be restored.

There's not really a distinct point in there where the Solars "grew corrupt," so much as that their abundance of power drives them to step out of their place in the world, calls them to chase glory at any cost-- and this brings sorrow to everyone, because that is, in the understanding of Immaculate thought, a wicked act.

Quote from: Holden;20262246This sounds about right, yes. Although keep two things in mind:

Immaculate dogma posits Dragon-Blooded as spiritually elevated, but in no way morally infallible. The Immaculate Dragons stand as exemplars specifically to curb the endemic misbehaviors of the Dragon-Blooded-- to drive Air Aspects to action rather than contemplation, and to caution Fire Aspects to contemplation before rushing to action, and so forth. A core tenet of the Immaculate Philosophy is that a Dragon-Blooded can fuck up his karma badly enough to demote himself in the next life through his own deeds-- certainly he can, nothing stops him from doing this-- but that a mortal cannot pollute their spiritual well-being by obeying one of the Terrestrial Exalted, even if that Exalt is firmly in the wrong. This is one of the reasons the Order so abhors peasant rebellions, yet usually comes in on the side of the peasants. That's a sign that some Exalt somewhere is behaving so abhorrently that he's ruining the spiritual well-being of those in his care by making obedience to his dictates unendurable. At that point, the DB in charge of the region has a very high likelihood of being murdered in the street by enraged monks. None of this points to a religion that has any delusions about the fallibility of its bodhisattva rulers.

That tendency toward cynicism is tempered (not erased, but tempered) by the lived experience of Exaltation. Plenty of real-world groups have spun up a great line of bullshit about the blessings they enjoy on account of their innate superiority-- the poor bastards rooked into the Boxer Rebellion were told their righteousness would protect them from British firearms-- but each and every Dragon-Blooded can feel a direct connection between their blood and Essence and the fundamental substance of the world around them. When an Air Aspect breathes, he feels the trade winds drawn into his lungs, and has a momentary connection to Creation itself. (Never mind all the cool magic shit they can do.) They are very receptive to being told that they are the Princes of the Earth, because that's what Exaltation as a Dragon-Blooded feels like.

Quote from: Holden;20262314These are the parts of the Immaculate Philosophy that Chejop Kejak and some other Sidereals just completely made up in a meeting one day:

• The Elemental Dragons are transcendental beings, rather than "just" being extremely powerful spirits.
• There is a natural hierarchy to the cosmos, and souls are judged and assigned to their next life based on excellence within the role they were born in during their current life.
• Dragon-Blooded sit at the top of this hierarchy of reincarnation, and birth as a Dragon-Blooded is a reward for many lifetimes of excellence and diligence. This makes them the rightful rulers of the world.
• Dragon-Blooded who achieve perfect righteousness and wisdom as rulers of the world merge with the Elemental Dragons upon death, transcending the world to become part of something indescribably grand beyond it.
• The Elemental Dragons incarnated themselves as flesh-and-blood, Dragon-Blooded heroes during the uprising against the Solar Exalted, and demonstrated the kind of righteous behavior that Dragon-Blooded need to strive to emulate in order to become one with them.
• The Solar and Lunar Exalted are inevitably destructive forces in the world if left to their own devices. (Kind of. Kejak would argue this is functionally true, if not ontologically true. The Gold Faction disagrees.)

All of those items are just some shit Sidereals made up. The rest of the Philosophy is basically either elaborations on those points, or re-contextualization of society and history in light of those false axioms (such as their policy on Exigents).

Quote from: Luca;908490Long story short, the new official line is that the savants and higher ups in the Immaculate Order (and not just the siddies behind it) knew all along that the whole "Solars are anathema sun-stealing demons" is bullshit, but they still feed the tale to the unwashed masses because the truth ("Solars were architect of a great era but their power got them crazy so we shall not allow them to rise again") would be too hard to understand for the peasants.

Frankly I don't see the big deal. Exalted "official canon" is so fucked up by now that if you want any decent amount of coherency you need to rewrite major parts of it anyway; this is a minor blip at most.

Given how the Usurpation is being framed this edition, at least in the core its more or less correct at least as far as Solars go. Every one of the First Age Solars either became a fucked up mustache twirling monster or the (apparently infallible) Sidereal hoodoo predicted they unavoidably would. So the Usurpation was bitter but heroic necessity not a possibly hasty choice possibly fueled by a variety of influences.

I guess as far as current characters go it mostly makes it harder to try and reason with the IO faithful. You can be Mother Theresa meets Ghandi but you'll go bad "someday" so best gank you now.

Allot of seems to tie into how the new feeling almost embarrassment over the high kicking epic "over the top" aspects of earlier editions or a "clever and sophisticated" attempt to subvert silly notions of heroism and adventure because the best the can aimed for a mediocre, muddled world of "realistic" dark grays. Bucking the system brings trouble, trying to improve things brings trouble so that current status quo is near the best of all possible worlds, etc etc.

Eh, but Luca calls it. The canon material is such a grand clusterfuck at this point that reading any coherency into it is virtually a fool's errand.

If someone decided to produce a comedy about Creation, I'd focus on a group of Sidereals running around Heaven and Creation desperately trying to fix things that aren't broken.

Quote from: Nexus;908494Here ya go.


Like most things Exalted this edition, its long and immense

I always find it funny how when casting aspersions of contradictions or radical belief in religion, Christianity is the SJW's go-to, not Islam. I'm a Christian and full-well realize that crazy is crazy and that it can fuck up a blow job from Traci Lords, but damn if the Left isn't living in a hole of ignorance when it comes to using real-world religions in the negative.

Oh, Rich and all his little sycophants can eat blood-covered shit.

Most importantly, when the fuck do these asshats find time to play the game?! They post thesis after thesis about what the color of a magi-monk's nipples rings mean to the post-war economy of Victimville and the word "ravage" or a bit of side-boob sends them into orbit. Can you imagine the tear-streaming hippie-tangents at their tables? Holy fuck, people! These turds are such a scourge to...anything.

nexus, I applaud you for wading through so much digital vomit. I suggest you watch Teletubbies or play Pokemón Go in traffic with your eyes closed as a safer use of time. You sir, are both patient and brave.

Quote from: Whitewings;908519If someone decided to produce a comedy about Creation, I'd focus on a group of Sidereals running around Heaven and Creation desperately trying to fix things that aren't broken.

So, pretty much the government...

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;908537I always find it funny how when casting aspersions of contradictions or radical belief in religion, Christianity is the SJW's go-to, not Islam. I'm a Christian and full-well realize that crazy is crazy and that it can fuck up a blow job from Traci Lords, but damn if the Left isn't living in a hole of ignorance when it comes to using real-world religions in the negative.

Oh, Rich and all his little sycophants can eat blood-covered shit.

No, this really does strike me as parallel to Christianity, in particular all the theological debates that developed immediately before and after the Nicene Creed.  If anything, Islam has the opposite issue: Because it was never that formularized and bureaucratized, any thug can say "this is Islam" and it'd be hard to contradict him because it's not like there's an official body that can say, "no you're wrong."

QuoteMost importantly, when the fuck do these asshats find time to play the game?! They post thesis after thesis about what the color of a magi-monk's nipples rings mean to the post-war economy of Victimville and the word "ravage" or a bit of side-boob sends them into orbit. Can you imagine the tear-streaming hippie-tangents at their tables? Holy fuck, people! These turds are such a scourge to...anything.

I think we're agreed there.

JG

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;908538So, pretty much the government...

I confess, one of my inspirations was the British series Yes, Minister.

The whole thing along with other aspects of the revised setting serves to reinforce my feeling that its a setting about being demigod heroes written by people that don't believe in heroism and may in fact be innately corrupt. Or at least uselesse so the game's mood is like some kind of historical sim with some flashy special effects but the mood that gray, boring and banal world is the best. That's fine for those that enjoy it but its not what expected or wanted out of the game.

I'm not sure what the deal is heaping more crap on the Solars. It brings to mind setting like Hunter: The Reckoning and Aberrant where the big surprise was that you were playing the nominal bad guys if you played the core characters. No big surprise in hindsight. ST has always been about playing monsters but again, not what I expected or wanted. At this point I wish they'd have just gone with what it seems was really wanted and gone with DB as the central characters. It felt increasingly like that since a point in 1st.

Something I like about Godbound is that it doesn't do these things. There's a setting and its grim but its presented as something you make better as a PC, if you want or bend to your will if you're so inclined not a precious darling where nothing major can be changed or any changes you make will be swept away in the tides of history like sand castes in a hurricane because that would be "unrealistic" Godbound doesn't preach, doesn't make you feel childish for wanting to actually be a hero or that the setting is there a unchanging set piece to marvel at but not touch.