Quote from: Christopher Brady;908301And I'm a terrible speaker and have no real life charisma, but the problem I have with social mechanics, you have to restrict to a bunch of codified choices, but real negotiations are much more nuanced.  It seems to be just another mind control mechanic, especially given that this is Exalted.

Could you guys take this to another thread?

Yeah, social systems very much tend to be hit or miss depending on the group. Some love 'em, some have no use for them. My own group gets by just fine through roleplaying with the occasional skill role, with social conflicts (the simple system Savage Worlds uses) reserved for really important stuff. But some people get into it a lot more than we do. It's much like how some groups are happy to get through combat as quickly as possible while others want every shift and blow to be all part of a greater, carefully worked out strategy.

For me, probably the most important part of the podcast was the way that group used to have to slog through combat, constantly checking dozens of Charms and keeping track of so many different things. That was easily my biggest concern with Exalted 3e's system when I first started looking it over.

I've tried to penetrate the book, but my eyes glaze after a few pages, what are 'sorcerous workings'?

Quote from: Brand55;908303Yeah, social systems very much tend to be hit or miss depending on the group. Some love 'em, some have no use for them. My own group gets by just fine through roleplaying with the occasional skill role, with social conflicts (the simple system Savage Worlds uses) reserved for really important stuff. But some people get into it a lot more than we do. It's much like how some groups are happy to get through combat as quickly as possible while others want every shift and blow to be all part of a greater, carefully worked out strategy.

Yeah, like I mentiones in the Godbound thread some groups don't roll for physical combat unless either ever or unless they feel its important. Its very much a preference thing.

QuoteFor me, probably the most important part of the podcast was the way that group used to have to slog through combat, constantly checking dozens of Charms and keeping track of so many different things. That was easily my biggest concern with Exalted 3e's system when I first started looking it over.

That was how the small test combat I ran felt too. I was wondering if it was just lack of familiarity but seems like it wasn't.

Basically, a sorceror can spend a number of weeks/months/years to perform a magical feat that isn't a spell. A working can be anything from warding a field against pests or a house against ghosts to embedding sorcerous knowledge and a path of initiation into the fundamental structure of Creation. There are three tiers, three levels within each tier, and three levels of what's called "finesse." Finesse means how much control the player has over the details of how the working does what it does. The higher the circle and the higher the ambition, the more successes you need. The higher the finesse, the higher the difficulty on the extended roll. Adding things like working in a manse, having good tools, assistants, taking lots of time and so on all buy you extra rolls.

Workings are normally permanent, or at least of indefinite duration. You can't dispel them or unwork them. It's possible to counter them with opposed workings, but this can get really weird. A road both blessed and cursed might result in horses running off, but local elementals agree to take their place. Or the campsite comes under attack from hordes of buzzing insects, which would make sleep impossible were they not kept off by a strong wind that rises to keep them away. Overall, the journey's no more difficult or easy than usual, but it's certainly much, much weirder.

Quote from: Whitewings;908307Basically, a sorceror can spend a number of weeks/months/years to perform a magical feat that isn't a spell. A working can be anything from warding a field against pests or a house against ghosts to embedding sorcerous knowledge and a path of initiation into the fundamental structure of Creation. There are three tiers, three levels within each tier, and three levels of what's called "finesse." Finesse means how much control the player has over the details of how the working does what it does. The higher the circle and the higher the ambition, the more successes you need. The higher the finesse, the higher the difficulty on the extended roll. Adding things like working in a manse, having good tools, assistants, taking lots of time and so on all buy you extra rolls.

Workings are normally permanent, or at least of indefinite duration. You can't dispel them or unwork them. It's possible to counter them with opposed workings, but this can get really weird. A road both blessed and cursed might result in horses running off, but local elementals agree to take their place. Or the campsite comes under attack from hordes of buzzing insects, which would make sleep impossible were they not kept off by a strong wind that rises to keep them away. Overall, the journey's no more difficult or easy than usual, but it's certainly much, much weirder.

So it's mainly an NPC thing?

Not at all. I have a character who, in her near future, will take a few weeks to spin sunlight and moonlight into thread from which to make gowns and robes for her wedding: gowns for herself and her bridesmaid, robes for the groom and the groomsman. She'll then donate them to the village so other couples can use them.

Low level workings can be done in as little as a single week, if you're not fussy about the details. Or even if you are, if you're Exalted.

So it's got no real mechanical value other than how the PC spends their downtime?  There's no immediate application, like in combat or a stressful situation?  Which makes me wonder why there'd need to be any rules for it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;908330So it's got no real mechanical value other than how the PC spends their downtime?  There's no immediate application, like in combat or a stressful situation?  Which makes me wonder why there'd need to be any rules for it.

Because creating things magical healing springs,  zone of enhanced fertility, invisible floating islands, warding areas against undead or spirits, curing permanent disabilities (missing limbs, blindness, etc) or making enhanced beings (or races at high levels) can be useful and have impact, even major impact on the setting and the PCs exploits such as future combats and stressful situation. In a sense its Ex3 version of spending Influence and Dominion but more skill and ability based.

It does seem like they don't explore the concept enough. Since sorcery is open to mortals and mortal sorcerers while rather rare are more common than Exalted and would have more use for smaller Workings There'd be more or them fixing or at least mitigating some of "lesser" issues around Creation. Like permanently and truly changing someone's gender would be a relatively minor Working well within reach of mortal sorcerers (glances at Prince Diamond*)

Mechnically, seems like the rules and structure of Sorcerous Workings could have been reskinned to work for construction artifacts, manses, more mundane political and bureaucratic  projects, etc, pretty easily too and cut down on some of the myriad rules or provided some in areas they're lacking like Bureaucracy. I think someone already home brewed artifact construct from them.

*In fairness they'be given their reasoning behind her not doing this. If its solid or not is up to the individual.

Quote from: Nexus;908332Because creating things magical healing springs,  zone of enhanced fertility, invisible floating islands, warding areas against undead or spirits, curing permanent disabilities (missing limbs, blindness, etc) or making enhanced beings (or races at high levels) can be useful and have impact, even major impact on the setting and the PCs exploits such as future combats and stressful situation. In a sense its Ex3 version of spending Influence and Dominion but more skill and ability based.

It does seem like they don't explore the concept enough. Since sorcery is open to mortals and mortal sorcerers while rather rare are more common than Exalted and would have more use for smaller Workings There'd be more or them fixing or at least mitigating some of "lesser" issues around Creation. Like permanently and truly changing someone's gender would be a relatively minor Working well within reach of mortal sorcerers (glances at Prince Diamond*)

Mechnically, seems like the rules and structure of Sorcerous Workings could have been reskinned to work for construction artifacts, manses, more mundane political and bureaucratic  projects, etc, pretty easily too and cut down on some of the myriad rules or provided some in areas they're lacking like Bureaucracy. I think someone already home brewed artifact construct from them.

*In fairness they'be given their reasoning behind her not doing this. If its solid or not is up to the individual.

I don't know that I'd use Prince Diamond as an example, since it's more of a cultural thing than a mental thing with him I think.   That said, if sorcerous workings could change gender, or even species,  and is doable by a mortal sorcerer, the Deneth culture seems more pointless.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;908365I don't know that I'd use Prince Diamond as an example, since it's more of a cultural thing than a mental thing with him I think.   That said, if sorcerous workings could change gender, or even species,  and is doable by a mortal sorcerer, the Deneth culture seems more pointless.

A sex change is within the ability of an unExalted sorceror, but it would be quite expensive, about the equivalent of $5,000 in modern terms, the rituals would take an entire month, and the waiting list would be long because most sorcerors are very busy people. Also, Dereth is mostly a social custom; Diamond is unusual in being genuinely transexual. Taken together, these provide a good explanation for her still being a her, but still don't explain why she doesn't seem at all interested in becoming a he.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;908365I don't know that I'd use Prince Diamond as an example, since it's more of a cultural thing than a mental thing with him I think.   That said, if sorcerous workings could change gender, or even species,  and is doable by a mortal sorcerer, the Deneth culture seems more pointless.

I mention Prince Diamond because she's tied up in this.

Its complicated and not just in setting. The Dereth were originally presented as a kind of cultural safety valve, something for individuals that wanted to avoid the strong gender based roles in the southern nomad's culture. They could put on the gray (originally Dereth wore gray veils as a variant on common practice of wearing veils in the society) and could take on the opposite gender role. They weren't physically considered the opposite gender, dereth men were male, dereath women were female but acting as their roles in society and were treated as such, could court and marry, etc. Homosexual sometimes used the option as it allowed for marriage and formation of a household. Its a logical extrapolation that some dereth would be transgendered if that's a state the exists in Creation's version of humanity.

Prince Diamond has been declared to be such by the developers (though they kind of hemmed and hawed about it at first). She feels she's male. Now in the current interpretation of the dereth the claim is they feel they are the opposite gender in entirety not just role wise. Gender is entirely cultural for them. So Prince Diamond has no desire to change her sex because she doesn't need too. She is a man just one that happens to have a vagina, uterus and breasts. Thing is that came across as a late change, essentially an ass pull that came up when someone asked why Prince Diamond hadn't or wasn't seeking to change her sex* that rewrote the concept of dereth because the impact of Workings hadn't been taken into account among other things. At least that's what I've been able to piece together from all the dodgy wiggle wording when it first came up.

Cliff notes version: Dereth weren't originally a "transexual" concept as we'd understand them, just a possible route for a character of that nature to take in that society. Now apparently they've been adapted as such to the point they wouldn't sex change since their idea of gender is totally cultural.

Really short version: I brought up Diamond more because I consider her a bit of ill considered pandering related to the topic than as a good candidate for gender reassignment via Sorcerous Working.

*The Dobsian reason is that the writers were afraid providing an "easy" solution would trivialize the issue of Transgenderism and put off a segment of their audience. Which did come up when Prince Diamond's nature first came out and the question was asked. Doing away with a gray veil tradition (now Dereth have to wear a piece of gray clothing, visibly I presume) had a similar reason, its potentially insulting.

Quote from: Whitewings;908366A sex change is within the ability of an unExalted sorceror, but it would be quite expensive, about the equivalent of $5,000 in modern terms, the rituals would take an entire month, and the waiting list would be long because most sorcerors are very busy people. Also, Dereth is mostly a social custom; Diamond is unusual in being genuinely transexual. Taken together, these provide a good explanation for her still being a her, but still don't explain why she doesn't seem at all interested in becoming a he.

Its not a matter of "still" its the "is always going to be". Diamond is described as widely traveled and not exactly hard up. It wouldn't be beyond her means as a mortal and even less so as an Exalt, particularly an Eclipse who can deal directly with spirit world which gives even more access to being with the power to do what would be required. If the sig character are a Circle. One of them IS a sorcerer.

Its also flaky,IMO, the Diamond, an Eclipse, supposedly the diplomat and traveler caste, used to the strange and exotic gets violent when others don't grasp her cultures rather unusual viewpoint and have the audacity to assume that someone with breasts and female genitals is a woman. Annoyance, rolling her eyes at the backwards barbarians, sure, but murderous rage and martial challenges? Not a good mindset for a diplomat unless the refusal mandated some denial or deprivation. She's not a Dothraki.

Re: The Ex3 vs Godbound podcast

One thing I strongly agreed with is how Ex3 feels like houserules and homebrew as far as setting and mechanics go. It was a feeling I couldn't really nail down until I heard it articulated but clicked. It explains some of the attitude demonstrated by Holden and Morke and the strong appeal it has with some of the fanbase that happen to share their outlook.

Quote from: Nexus;908374Re: The Ex3 vs Godbound podcast

One thing I strongly agreed with is how Ex3 feels like houserules and homebrew as far as setting and mechanics go. It was a feeling I couldn't really nail down until I heard it articulated but clicked. It explains some of the attitude demonstrated by Holden and Morke and the strong appeal it has with some of the fanbase that happen to share their outlook.

Yeah, and it's certainly true since we're talking about developers who started out as fans and were brought in later. But slow, ultra high-crunch Exalted is official and not likely to change any time soon, if ever. I've made my peace with the fact that Exalted is just never going to have an official system that I'm going to want to run again.

Oh, and I was pleased to hear another fan of the Savant and Sorcerer cover. I love that thing. Few covers have ever upset so many prudish fans.