Kevin, have I ever said you're my favorite?

Gosh, it's almost like things that take time and effort to produce eventually end up costing money.

And aren't little cartoons used to suggest that consumers are being fleeced in a niche industry that literally cannot support most human beings working in it just hilarious?

Quote from: Warboss Squee;904934Looks like AsenRG is the only guy who really gets Exalted.  Someone give the guy a gold medal, because he's apparently the only guy playing it right and the rest of us are wrong.

Actually, I'm going to call bullshit on Asen's statements.  Because up thread he's already claimed that he doesn't use a MASSIVE chunk of the system because he can't be arsed to actually deal with it, and still has the balls to claim to our face that he's using all the system.

Quote from: Jetstream;905147Kevin, have I ever said you're my favorite?

Gosh, it's almost like things that take time and effort to produce eventually end up costing money.

And aren't little cartoons used to suggest that consumers are being fleeced in a niche industry that literally cannot support most human beings working in it just hilarious?

Take your sarcastic ass home.  I only ask why a specific company charges so much.  You know one of a few companies that demand more money for both POD and PDF while Kevin offers his PDFs for free if you get the POD.

As for the rest of you guys.  Thanks for answering my question.

Quote from: Jetstream;905147Gosh, it's almost like things that take time and effort to produce eventually end up costing money.

That's probably why no one at all here actually suggested that they shouldn't cost money.

Quote from: Jetstream;905147Kevin, have I ever said you're my favorite?

Gosh, it's almost like things that take time and effort to produce eventually end up costing money.

And aren't little cartoons used to suggest that consumers are being fleeced in a niche industry that literally cannot support most human beings working in it just hilarious?

Fleeced? No. Charged more than strictly necessary for some thing they're clearly willing to pay for?  If the money's out there you'd be foolish to not get it and fanbase has shown they're willing to pay. A Cash Cow  doesn't mean something is a rip off. But that its a major source of revenue, an income source that's milked for what its worth often to help support less profitable projects and products. Most small, niche industries have them or wish they did. Exalted is a major line for OP right now. They'd be stupid not to charge what can get for it. Now, if you think its worth it. That's the subjective part. I don't happen to think it is both due to quality and I'm hesitant to pay that much for any PDF. But the price? That's capitalism, pure and simple. And no one suggested that it should be free.

And its such a cute cow.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905152Actually, I'm going to call bullshit on Asen's statements.  Because up thread he's already claimed that he doesn't use a MASSIVE chunk of the system because he can't be arsed to actually deal with it, and still has the balls to claim to our face that he's using all the system.

Learn 2 sarcasm.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905075At this point, I think he's a God.

Funny, another poster thinks I'm the Devil...

QuoteNot only is he actually USING the system, he's the ONLY person who hasn't houseruled or handwaved away any of the mechanics and made it WORK.

Of course I have. I did state so repeatedly.

QuoteThat is an impossible feat worthy of a Gaming God, there's no other way to explain how he does it.

The God Of Industrious Gaming? How big of a Cult rating do I get?
And where can I exchange the Ambrosia in Euro:p?

Quote from: yosemitemike;905080^I ran it RAW without being any sort of gaming god.  It can be done.

Crap. There goes my godhood, too...

QuoteIt was just way more trouble than it was worth.  The system was a constant obstacle.  It did nothing but trip people and get in the way.

I have better experiences with it...but that's achieved by trimming the number of sub-systems.

QuoteThat seems to be the case with every serious Exalted fan.  They are all the only one who gets the game and plays it right.

In fact, it's not limited to Exalted.

QuoteThey all seem to be playing different games though.

As a matter of fact, that's the case in all settings. You think two different GMs have the same view of any setting?
I doubt it.
There's a reason why the advice "make the setting your own" has been part of setting books since...oh, wait, since 1975 at least:D!

Quote from: Nexus;905088I commend anyone that didn't on their patience and/or exceptional improv skills. The gamers I've met that said they were "running it by RAW and it worked fine!" were doing it Old WoD/Storyteller style. That is avoiding actually using the mechanics as much as possible and "storytelling" things out, maybe occasionally rolling dice and making shit up from the results enough to make them feel like they were using the system when they were at best a guideline. There's not innately wrong with that but I don't feel like paying for a few hundred pages of rules for it and claiming that's using "RAW" is disingenuous at best.

I admit these guys always amazed me, too. I mean, why do you even need hundreds of pages of rules that you're not going to use:)?

Quote3rd Edition leaves me cold but it appears to work in a workman like fashion but the complexity and design choices are not for me and according to some the cracks are already starting to show.

Well, no cracks so far have become apparent. I'll report if it happens;).

Quote from: yosemitemike;905100^Unless people are talking about a verifiable fact like the atomic weight of iron or something, people declaring, "This is what (fill in the blank) is about!" make me roll my eyes.  It's almost always just pompous, self-important horseshit.

Usually that statement means "that's how the setting was meant to be used by the author". Nobody says you can't use it differently, but it is a data point to consider.

QuoteI have heard that 3rd functions better as a system but I have no first hand knowledge of it.

It functions better as a system.
Also, if you want a lighter system, you might as well consider the Burn Legend hack;).

Quote from: SineNomine;905130The fact that PDF prices don't inevitably gravitate toward the marginal cost of production- zero dollars- has a couple reasons behind it. First, you still have to recoup non-print production costs, which are the same for a PDF and a print copy. Art, layout, writing, editing, and your own sweat equity all have to get covered. If you're selling POD, where the customer pays before you have to print the book, these non-print costs are effectively your entire production cost and are the same between formats.

For one example, take Godbound's $60 premium color hardcover at 251 pages. Print cost is approximately $31, OBS's taste is 35% on the rest, netting $18.75 profit for me. If that's my share of the take, the customer is paying me, personally, 7.5 cents/page for my writing, apart from the print format costs and OBS's cut. The $20 PDF gets me $13 profit at a 5.2 cents/page cost  to the customer. Both editions cost me basically the same amount of up-front money to create, given POD realities, but the PDF is already losing me almost six bucks in profit per copy sold, and the ten dollars given back to the PDF-only buyer off what they're paying to me specifically for the premium print.

To compare, look at Exalted 3e. Premium hardcover runs $114 for 656 pages. Print cost is about $74, OBS takes 35% of the rest, giving OPP $26 profit/copy and a to-the-customer cost of... 3.9 cents/page. About half what they paid to get my stuff in print. The $30 PDF they're selling nets them about $20, but leaves the customer paying a rock-bottom price of three pennies per page to OPP. OPP is netting approximately 50% more profit than I am on each copy sold of Exalted 3e, but I can tell you up front that Exalted 3e sure as Hell took more than 50% more effort to put together than Godbound did. A monster book like the 3e corebook simply cannot economically work without the sort of Kickstarter push it got. People get uncomfortable paying 3 cents a page for something that big. Pay your writers 3 cents a word, and you need to sell about 1,000 copies of the damn thing just to pay your writing costs.

The second reason that PDF prices don't naturally fall to zero is that they're a luxury good marketed to a small group of relatively affluent patrons. They're almost the opposite of a commodity. Unless you're churning out Processed Extruded RPG Product, you're offering something that no other publisher can exactly replicate, so whoever wants your stuff has to buy it from you, and their only alternative to pushing the 'buy' button is to pirate it. The latter course is possible, but a correctly-chosen price will be more convenient for this niche market to pay than it is to try to navigate the pirate sites and find the thing there. Since a huge swath of our market is 40something knowledge workers in their prime earning years, they're just not going to quibble over five bucks either way if you're able to convince them that they need your specific brew.

And since you can get that money, it'd require a degree of business incompetence unusual even in the RPG industry to not take that money. You won't get significantly greater sales by chopping prices below the customary-and-usual, you'll just make your product look like the PERPGP wastelands of $2 Pathfinder classes and $1 homebrew campaign settings exported from MS Word. There are only so many people who are interested in the stuff we sell, and if you leave their money on the table, you won't make it up on volume.

OK, that's an amusing, well-read analysis of the PDF pricing.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905152Actually, I'm going to call bullshit on Asen's statements.  Because up thread he's already claimed that he doesn't use a MASSIVE chunk of the system because he can't be arsed to actually deal with it, and still has the balls to claim to our face that he's using all the system.

I didn't renege on that statement, either. It's your reading comprehension that's suffering. Let me try and explain again;).

I am using the system. I'm using all of the system in the sub-systems that I actually use.
I've decided to discard other systems, because I do consider my ideas better - for me, at least (though given the opinion many posters here seem to have of the Ex3 developers, it looks likely that I might even find unexpected support if I needed it:D).

I'm not using all sub-systems of the system - that's not the same thing. In fact, I couldn't do that even if I wanted to, because nobody in my group has even bothered to take Craft as a skill.
Similarly, I'm not using the Antagonists, other than as guidelines, because I can't be bothered to, or simply because I didn't want to. That's not always a process towards a simplification - I've actually added charms to some NPCs that were presented as antagonists. The reasons? Because I wanted to tinker with them, and it made sense!

Glad to clarify that for you. Now move along and try to construct a better argument!

Quote from: AsenRG;905174In fact, it's not limited to Exalted.

and no one said it was.

Quote from: AsenRG;905174As a matter of fact, that's the case in all settings. You think two different GMs have the same view of any setting?

There's a lot of excluded middle ground between every GM having the exact same view of the setting and being in a dicsussion where it sounds like 10 different people are talking about 10 different games and all calling them the same name.  

Quote from: AsenRG;905174Usually that statement means "that's how the setting was meant to be used by the author". Nobody says you can't use it differently, but it is a data point to consider.

That would be the case if it were the author making that statement but it almost never is.  It's generally a pretentious fan trying to pretend that their subjective opinion is objective fact and what the game is really about.

Quote from: yosemitemike;905185and no one said it was.

If you didn't mean to imply that it was, I apologize for having misunderstood you:).

QuoteThere's a lot of excluded middle ground between every GM having the exact same view of the setting and being in a dicsussion where it sounds like 10 different people are talking about 10 different games and all calling them the same name.  

Except 10 games set up in 10 of the cardinally different parts of the setting will be wildly different, because it's a fucking huge landmass, and that's before different interpretations come into play...
IME, there's three kinds of people that run Exalted. The first focus on one of the sources of the setting's inspiration, like the epic legends, Tanith Lee's S&S stories, or the anime influences and then quibble with other fans why this particular source of inspiration is the most important one. The second try to run a game of transhuman superheroes in a fantasy setting. The third try to mix and match more than one of the above.
All of them are usually firmly of the opinion that the other groups are Doing Exalted Wrong.

And of course, everyone not sharing my approach simply is Doing Exalted Wrong, in fact it's so wrong it's almost triggering me:D!

QuoteThat would be the case if it were the author making that statement but it almost never is.  It's generally a pretentious fan trying to pretend that their subjective opinion is objective fact and what the game is really about.

The authors these days often make their goals clear, so the fan might well know what he's talking about;).

Quote from: AsenRG;905174I didn't renege on that statement, either. It's your reading comprehension that's suffering. Let me try and explain again;).

I am using the system. I'm using all of the system in the sub-systems that I actually use.
I've decided to discard other systems, because I do consider my ideas better - for me, at least (though given the opinion many posters here seem to have of the Ex3 developers, it looks likely that I might even find unexpected support if I needed it:D).

I'm not using all sub-systems of the system - that's not the same thing. In fact, I couldn't do that even if I wanted to, because nobody in my group has even bothered to take Craft as a skill.
Similarly, I'm not using the Antagonists, other than as guidelines, because I can't be bothered to, or simply because I didn't want to. That's not always a process towards a simplification - I've actually added charms to some NPCs that were presented as antagonists. The reasons? Because I wanted to tinker with them, and it made sense!

Glad to clarify that for you. Now move along and try to construct a better argument!

Bullshit.  You've claimed you don't use the antagonists section.  Which is a rather LARGER and intricate chunk of the system.  Not book, but actual system.  Let me point out where it all starts, so you can try and stuff a third foot into your mouth trying to verbally dance around it again.

Quote from: AsenRG;902116No, that's just houseruling/improving the rules on "Quick Characters", which are explicitly part of the third edition:p!

That is not using the rules, that's making shit up because you can't be arsed to use the full system.  So either you don't use the entire system because you don't actually care about it, or you've read it and realized just how insanely hard it is to maintain any sort of fun, unless you love Excel spreadsheeting.

I love that Mr. Emoticon keeps screaming at the hurricane of "Ex3 sucks!" reason with support of why people think it sucks. Ex3's system is serviceable for gaming the same way using a screwdriver to hammer a nail is serviceable: both can get the job done, but it's suboptimal and will likely break something.

I think you're being a bit excessive. God knows I don't exactly like Exalted (at least since Game of Divinity) or its current developers, but there's a market, however small it might be, for very crunchy games.
And also, the fact people like the crunch doesn't automatically translate as "they want to use every single rule in a huge-ass book".

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905280Bullshit.  You've claimed you don't use the antagonists section.  Which is a rather LARGER and intricate chunk of the system.

So..."if you make your own opponents, you're not using the system"?
Do you also object to third-party supplements:p?
That's...stupid beyond belief. NPC stats are a series of target numbers you need to hit or exceed, a series of resistances, and a series of tricks they can pull from their sleeves. That's all. The idea that if I don't use The Officially (R) Approved Numbers (TM)...
Why, it reminds me of TSR and Kevin Simbieda - except you don't have his style:D!

Oh, and for the record, I always have Excel spreadsheats with NPCs:). I don't need the sheets because of the rules info, they just contain the GM-only info. You know the stuff, I would hope (though with you, I'm done assuming that you know anything). Who they know, what they know, what relationships they have to whom, what they own, what they look like, where they are at the moment.
That's orders of fucking magnitude more important than their stupid stats!

And that's, in all likelihood, the last time I address your posts.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;905337I love that Mr. Emoticon keeps screaming at the hurricane of "Ex3 sucks!" reason with support of why people think it sucks. Ex3's system is serviceable for gaming the same way using a screwdriver to hammer a nail is serviceable: both can get the job done, but it's suboptimal and will likely break something.

Fine. Show me a more optimal system for doing the Exalted setting, and one that I have obviously missed:).

Also, the hurricane around here started with "Ex3 is not serviceable" and other exaggerated claims. I objected to that and pointed that no, it can be used and is fun.
Now that you are back to "there's better ways", my answer is much simpler. No, I'm not claiming Ex3 is necessarily the best Exalted system for every group. That would be stupid. Different groups have different needs.
There are probably systems that would do Exalted better for you, too. I've houseruled other systems to run Exalted already, myself, between the KS being announced and receiving the official book - and it's arguable whether my systems didn't have at least some advantages over the current edition. (Scratch that, at least some of them did have some advantages - but the current edition also has its own advantages, too).
Either way, now I just want to try the third edition. After that? I might use Godbound, or whatever other system strikes my fancy. In all likelihood, it would be Mythras Exalted:D!

Quote from: AsenRG;905358So..."if you make your own opponents, you're not using the system"?

That's not what you said, stop moving goal posts.

Quote from: AsenRG;905358Do you also object to third-party supplements:p?

Those are still house-rules, someone else's that you paid for (assuming it's not something some guy made up that you like, which by the way is totally fine as long as you admit that is what you're doing.)  But the question is:  Are you using this third party to replace broken rules?  Or are you using them to add on to the base rules.  I'm thinking it's the former, despite your constant harping about how the system is perfectly fine despite not using the antagonist section.

Quote from: AsenRG;905358Oh, and for the record, I always have Excel spreadsheats with NPCs:). I don't need the sheets because of the rules info, they just contain the GM-only info. You know the stuff, I would hope (though with you, I'm done assuming that you know anything). Who they know, what they know, what relationships they have to whom, what they own, what they look like, where they are at the moment.
That's orders of fucking magnitude more important than their stupid stats!

No, actually, it's not.  ESPECIALLY if you're planning on using the charms.  The moment you introduce those little packets of rules, all those things can in theory change.  Especially the Social Manipulation Charms, which can alter every single one of those little bullet points that you have your excel spreadsheet.  They can change your NPC's personalities, who they view as allies, enemies and lovers and all sorts of things that will change the moment your social expert player (Assuming you have one, although in my experience there usually is, but that's just anecdotal.)  They can, in theory, -assuming your players are OK with this- alter PC's personalities and 'intimacies'.

There's a total of 650+ little things you hand wave away as not important, despite being the core chunk of the book!  The Charms, which affect everything, especially if you have non-combat antagonists that use the social Charms instead of Kick to Face ones.

Which pretty much means that no, you're not using Exalted as written.  

But here's the ONLY problem with that.  It means that your contribution to this particular conversation is not useful.  It's actively detrimental.  BUT!  This is the only place that this actually matters.

If your friends are totally fine with your hand waves and house rules, you keep going.  Keep doing whatever it is that allows you to keep this game fun, despite the sheer mess it is for the rest of us.  You managed to fix it for your crew, which frankly is a massive undertaking that I honestly applaud.  I take one look at it, and I give up.  You didn't.  That is something I wish I could do.

But you're not helping this conversation about what can be done to improve, because you've assumed that your house rules are as written in the book, when they're clearly not.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905427That's not what you said, stop moving goal posts.

Of course it's not what I said! This is what follows from what you said:).
In fact, you repeated it in this post I'm quoting.
Obviously I wouldn't say something as monumentally stupid! I'm quoting it so I could laugh at it - and I had the vain hope you'd realize how stupid it is and go back. Obviously didn't work out, some people don't see when they're offered a way out:p.

QuoteThose are still house-rules, someone else's that you paid for (assuming it's not something some guy made up that you like, which by the way is totally fine as long as you admit that is what you're doing.)

Which is somehow different from any system ever? How? OD&D were Gary Gygax's house rules (the question of whoever else participated in fleshing them out notwithstanding). Traveller is Marc Miller's houserules for science fiction. And so on.

QuoteBut the question is:  Are you using this third party to replace broken rules?  Or are you using them to add on to the base rules.

I'm not using them to replace a rule that wouldn't work, or would break the game - so no, it's not "to replace the broken rules", much as your hate-on for Ex3 makes you want that this were the case...
I'm using them because they work better. Period.

QuoteI'm thinking it's the former, despite your constant harping about how the system is perfectly fine despite not using the antagonist section.

That's again misquoting what I said...but I corrected you in my previous post:D. I don't have the time to spare for doing it again.

QuoteNo, actually, it's not.  ESPECIALLY if you're planning on using the charms.

OK, you need to go back to GMing 101. Have fun with it, it should be useful, according to my observations about you - from this thread and others;).

QuoteThe moment you introduce those little packets of rules, all those things can in theory change.  Especially the Social Manipulation Charms, which can alter every single one of those little bullet points that you have your excel spreadsheet.

Of course they can. If you can't change those things without influencing them

Quotedirectly

with the system, either your players, or your GMing sucks (or both). No need for Charms. Charms are just a way to change the difficulty numbers, anyway.
The fun part about spreadsheets is they allow me to track the changes.

QuoteThey can change your NPC's personalities, who they view as allies, enemies and lovers and all sorts of things that will change the moment your social expert player (Assuming you have one, although in my experience there usually is, but that's just anecdotal.)  They can, in theory, -assuming your players are OK with this- alter PC's personalities and 'intimacies'.

Most of the group tends to be mostly of social experts. That's not a bug, it's a feature.

QuoteThere's a total of 650+ little things you hand wave away as not important, despite being the core chunk of the book!  The Charms, which affect everything, especially if you have non-combat antagonists that use the social Charms instead of Kick to Face ones.

Charms just change your difficulties numbers.

QuoteWhich pretty much means that no, you're not using Exalted as written.

Now you're just being obtuse. Stop it, it's boring.
No need to continue responding to your posts, anyway - let me use a certain forum feature;).