Quote from: Snowman0147;902122I got version 1.8 godbound.  Kevin seems to release a update from time to time.

1.8's been out a while. He's been working on 1.9

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;902135Houseruling and improving? You shouldn't NEED to do either. Exalted, however, all but forces you to, if you want to maintain a shred of sanity. It's a shit system made by shit people that caters to (largely) shit fans. It's not quick, it's needlessly clunky and defense of it smacks of a desperation to maintain the illusion of it being what people were promised.

"Oh just ignore the system" has been the standard defense of Exalted for years now. If I'm going to ignore then rules, the hundreds of pagers of charms and other crunch why the Hell am I paying for it? Especially now when there are two versions of largely the same fluff around?

Quote from: Jetstream;9021401.8's been out a while. He's been working on 1.9

Yeah, but until 1.9 is release 1.8 is latest your gonna get.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;902135Houseruling and improving? You shouldn't NEED to do either. Exalted, however, all but forces you to, if you want to maintain a shred of sanity.

First, this was equally necessary in Exalted 2e.
Second and more important, I need to do that for almost all systems, except the few that are already this way:).
Your arguments apply equally well to almost all systems out there. That probably includes your favourite system, too;).

It's not because I want to maintain sanity, but because it's less work - and I almost always have better things to spend my efforts when GMing, then dealing with statistics.

QuoteIt's a shit system made by shit people that caters to (largely) shit fans.

...that's so stupid, the only answer I can give you while maintaining the tone would amount to "y tu mama tambien:D!"

QuoteIt's not quick, it's needlessly clunky and defense of it smacks of a desperation to maintain the illusion of it being what people were promised.

Heh. I'm pretty sure that "quick" has never been promised (and if they did, it was a stupid promise - quick, in a system we knew would be exception-based, is a pipe dream), but whatever.
It sure is quicker than the mote attrition of 2e, I can guarantee that;).
In what concerns "needlessly clunky", I can kinda sorta agree. It's clunkier than some fans want or need. But for people like the poster that said on this board that "a game no more complicated than chess doesn't count as an RPG", it's probably too light:D!

Quote from: AsenRG;902162First, this was equally necessary in Exalted 2e.

...I want you to reread this statement.  And just think on it.  Then I want you to consider the sheer inanity of actually believing that because it's always been done 'that way' is a good thing.  Seriously, just how much of a blind apologist are you going to be???

Wow, just wow, having to ignore more than half the game system to make it work is a GOOD THING?  Really?  If you're OK with bald face lying to your about the choice of Charms they make because in the end, whatever they choose will have no mechanical impact is fine, I suppose, but don't assume it's good design.  Like Nexus said, if you're not going to use most of it, why bother owning it?

Christ, it's like ordering your favourite burger and just eating the lettuce it comes with.  Not all of us would consider that a good value.  (And don't try to be 'cute' and claim you don't like burgers or some such.  It's a sad attempt at trying to deflect the point, and you know exactly what I mean.  It also makes you look stupider than you seem, so please, don't abuse my respect like that.)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;902171...I want you to reread this statement.  And just think on it.  Then I want you to consider the sheer inanity of actually believing that because it's always been done 'that way' is a good thing.

Who says it's a good thing?
As far as I understand, the poster I was replying to was criticizing Ex3 for being worse than Ex2 and Ex1, and I pointed out that this specific objection is not valid. That's all. The "it's a good thing" is something you read into it, and it's your problem.

QuoteSeriously, just how much of a blind apologist are you going to be???

As long as there are blind haters, I'll probably enjoy pointing out the flaws in their arguments.

QuoteWow, just wow, having to ignore more than half the game system to make it work is a GOOD THING?

Half of what game system? What?
The Antagonists chapter isn't exactly "half the game system". More like 10% or less.

QuoteReally?  If you're OK with bald face lying to your about the choice of Charms they make because in the end, whatever they choose will have no mechanical impact is fine, I suppose, but don't assume it's good design.

Easy here, pardner! "Lying" is also something that you managed to read into my post without it being there...
You sure you don't need glasses?

QuoteLike Nexus said, if you're not going to use most of it, why bother owning it?

Thing is, I'm using most of it. I just don't need all of it for NPCs - that's for the PCs only.

QuoteChrist, it's like ordering your favourite burger and just eating the lettuce it comes with.

No, it's like me and my friends ordering our favourite burgers, and me passing the lettuce to them - because they like more of it, and I don't want it. Which actually happens with a number of other meals - not sure about burgers, I'm not into them.

QuoteNot all of us would consider that a good value.  (And don't try to be 'cute' and claim you don't like burgers or some such.  It's a sad attempt at trying to deflect the point, and you know exactly what I mean.  It also makes you look stupider than you seem, so please, don't abuse my respect like that.)

But I really don't like burgers...also, I just replied why your analogy is erroneous, and suggested a better one;).

Quote from: AsenRG;902185Who says it's a good thing?

By saying that ignoring chunks of E2 was normal, you were implying that it was fine, because if it was done before, what you do now is OK, and anyone complaining about (as if this is the first time anyone has complained) is a bit disingenuous.  It's a cheap internet debate technique.  Please don't use it.

Quote from: AsenRG;902185As far as I understand, the poster I was replying to was criticizing Ex3 for being worse than Ex2 and Ex1, and I pointed out that this specific objection is not valid. That's all. The "it's a good thing" is something you read into it, and it's your problem.

Yes, it IS worse simply because it was advertised as something it turned out not to be (as in better than the last two versions), it IS worse.  And not only because of the repetitive charm bloat either.  There's a lot of holdovers from 2e that are simply unchecked.

Quote from: AsenRG;902185As long as there are blind haters, I'll probably enjoy pointing out the flaws in their arguments.

I think you may be projecting your blindness on others.  See, someone who 'blindly hates' is a lot like the 4e haters that never tried the game and immediately parrot the 'Oh, it's like a video game' bullshit that everyone else, who also hadn't seen the game decided to call it, so that they could justify sticking with 3e.  Hating something without looking at it, analyzing it or in some cases actually trying it out, or just hating because X company put it out, that is blindly hating something.

Sadly, this is NOT what happened here.  Most of the complaints you are responding too, have actually tried the game system in some fashion.  And found it very, very, very lacking, simply because it's just not different enough from the mess that 2e ended up being (when it turned out that apparently the errata for the core book turned out bigger than the core book.  Or so it was claimed.)

Quote from: AsenRG;902185Half of what game system? What?
The Antagonists chapter isn't exactly "half the game system". More like 10% or less.

And this is where inability to understand mechanics comes to the fore.  Not an insult, but it's clear that you've not actually thought it through.  One part effects another, even D&D's spell system, each of which is a separate rules block that don't interact with the base system is effected by certain other factors.  Like the Saving Throw, each class in most of D&D's lifetime has a unique modifier on what type of effect the spell is using.  In AD&D for example, some Spells used the Charm saving throws, other went with Death.  But those mechanics were tied to other things that weren't Spells either, like a Dragon's Breath, which again, each class some of which did not use magic at all got.  A Gorgon's Breath, if I remember correctly (and I may not, but it's just an example) also used the Death saving throw number.  I could be wrong, but hopefully you know what I'm talking about.

All these systems are interlinked, by changing one, you change others.  Some might seem that big, others rewrite the entire system in it's effect.

So, by ignoring the antagonists chapter, that actually cascades into other rules, like most of the Charms, of which they actually affect said antagonists in some fashion.  By ignoring one section, you are in effect ignoring another.  One thing is interlinked to another, and by ignoring one section, you are, apparently without realizing it, ignoring a rather large section of the system.

Quote from: AsenRG;902185Easy here, pardner! "Lying" is also something that you managed to read into my post without it being there...

By not using the antagonists as they are, and letting your players believe that all the charms they want to use actually has meaning, but actually don't because you're not actually using what the charms will be affecting is lying.  You fooling your players into believing something that's not true.  How is that not a lie?

Quote from: AsenRG;902185You sure you don't need glasses?

FLAG ON PLAY!  Using an ad hominem attack to try and dismiss argument.  Shows weakness of own argument.

Quote from: AsenRG;902185Thing is, I'm using most of it. I just don't need all of it for NPCs - that's for the PCs only.

But the most important section of the book, even if it's the smallest, is the Antagonists.  And I'm not just talking the combat monsters, I'm talking those that would want to challenge the PCs, in physical tests, like combat, but athletics counts as well, mental tests, like puzzles or general knowledge, and personality tests, like negotiations or intimidation and every thing in between is relegated by their stats, what charms (if any) they have and other factors.  By ignoring that tiny, ten percent, you've just affected the entire system in a way that's apparently too subtle for you to have realized.

Uh, sticking your entire arm in water for a couple of seconds, and sticking 10% of your arm in acid.  The acid, despite being less of it on you, will still do more damage in the long rung than having your entire arm into the average American bathtub water.

Quote from: AsenRG;902185No, it's like me and my friends ordering our favourite burgers, and me passing the lettuce to them - because they like more of it, and I don't want it. Which actually happens with a number of other meals - not sure about burgers, I'm not into them.

What you believe and what you're doing are two different things, evidently.

Quote from: AsenRG;902185But I really don't like burgers...also, I just replied why your analogy is erroneous, and suggested a better one;).

...Really?  Really?  Wow.  

I'm not going to change your mind, and that's fine, but it's clear that you have no idea what the scope of the complaints are, and blindly dismiss them because your OK with the mess that you have is like dancing the mamba with nitro glycerin in each hand.

Just because you've gotten away with it unharmed, does not mean that dancing with nitro glycerin is safe for everyone to do it.

...BOOM!

Quote from: AsenRG;902162First, this was equally necessary in Exalted 2e.
Second and more important, I need to do that for almost all systems, except the few that are already this way:).
Your arguments apply equally well to almost all systems out there. That probably includes your favourite system, too;).

It's not because I want to maintain sanity, but because it's less work - and I almost always have better things to spend my efforts when GMing, then dealing with statistics.


...that's so stupid, the only answer I can give you while maintaining the tone would amount to "y tu mama tambien:D!"


Heh. I'm pretty sure that "quick" has never been promised (and if they did, it was a stupid promise - quick, in a system we knew would be exception-based, is a pipe dream), but whatever.
It sure is quicker than the mote attrition of 2e, I can guarantee that;).
In what concerns "needlessly clunky", I can kinda sorta agree. It's clunkier than some fans want or need. But for people like the poster that said on this board that "a game no more complicated than chess doesn't count as an RPG", it's probably too light:D!

No, I don't need to ignore rules in Star Wars or Cypher System games. Why? Because they work without having to fiddle-fuck with a ton of shit. Can I change things if I want to? Yes, that's an RPG thing. However, I don't NEED to in order to run a combat that won't still be going in a year...

And yes, most of the most fervent supporters of Exalted are SJW fucktards who aren't gamers and hate the hobby. The Ex3 crew is a huge group of assholes with one designer not even gaming. The game was promised to be streamlined, which is pretty much synonymous with "quicker". The ST System wasn't built from the ground up and it shows. All they did was mash years of everything into a cluster-fuck system.

Here's the most glorious rub, though: I'm not wrong about any of the points I've made. The creators ARE vitriolic assholes who lied. The majority of fans ARE SJWs shitheads. And the system IS a clunky, cludgey, counter-intuitive mess.

Oh, your little emoticons are stupid. And I hate you.

Quote from: AsenRG;902185Half of what game system? What?
The Antagonists chapter isn't exactly "half the game system". More like 10% or less.

With all due respect, that's quite disingenous. A game system like Exalted (complex, extremely crunchy, theoretically designed to give players lots of significant choices during both character generation and combat) falls apart if you wing it up whenever you're playing the opponents. At that point you might as well wing up the players' powers.
A game's tactical depth requires either both PCs and NPCs using the same rules, or, if they're different, they have to be properly designed that way from the start so the 2 different subsystems interact correctly with each other. And if you lose that depth, then why bother with Exalted's level of complexity?

And regardless of any other factor, a corebook with over 600 exception-based powers (with much more to come in the following splatbooks) requires an initial investment which is just plain crazy. That's an objective number, not linked to any specific person's bias.

I thought Qwixalted was a good implementation of the rules. The barrier to adoption seems to be that many players prefer having a large, but manageable, number of exception-based charms.

I don't understand why this is such a big problem. I would think it would be a simple matter of houseruling that all charms have a second dimension of limitations define by the player/GM. This would give an effectively infinite number of discrete charms without having to write new subsystems for each and every imaginable superpower.

Could someone explain it to me?

Hero would be the best system for Exalted. A nice 200 page setting/campaign book and you'd be done. Wouldn't happen in a million years as Exalted and Hero fans are like oil and water, I'd bet my house they will vote on predictably opposite sides in November.

Quote from: The_Shadow;903533Hero would be the best system for Exalted. A nice 200 page setting/campaign book and you'd be done. Wouldn't happen in a million years as Exalted and Hero fans are like oil and water, I'd bet my house they will vote on predictably opposite sides in November.

I and most of our group are Hero fans that also like Exalted. Its not a total division and I am working on a conversion for our games. But I agree its unlikely to happen officially at any point. Geoff Grabowski apparently had a strong dislike for systems like Hero and GURPS and its something later developers have clung to keep the game's exception based design instead of a build your own or similar system. Its been suggested and shot down aggressively as "not being Exalted". Cynically, I think its a move for sales. If your customers can easily write up new abilities they're less reliant on the supplement treadmill. And while you can make new charms, its hit or miss and they play up the process as practically arcane, never offering solid rules or even guidelines. Supposedly the Exigent book will. That remains to be seen but it essentially has to given the nature of Exigents.

You can't even work out rough principles from the examples given. Each Ability seems to be based around a very loose design scheme (weird in such a high crunch game), and the scheme seems to vary hugely between abilities. And it doesn't help that the system as written leads directly to consequences the designers cannot accept, mainly that for the Solar Exalted, legendary accomplishments are everyday. Difficulty 5 is supposed to be nearly impossible for regular people; for a Solar with the appropriate Charms, it's easy. The Codex Gigas took an estimated 20 years for one monk to write; a Solar with Lore 5 and Flawless Brush Discipline can do the equivalent in a day. Plus time to plan it out, so maybe six months. Then a day each to produce new copies, assuming enough ink, paper and brushes are available. The impact of this on the setting can easily be enormous, but there's no way to express this in the game, either in fluff or mechanics. And if someone invents some practical method of copying books, such as a two dot Artifact that will duplicate a book when supplied with an original and the needed materials, even if the rate is low by our standards, well, look how slow the Gutenberg press was. A Bible took over a decade to copy by hand; to have one available in a matter of weeks was a wonder beyond reckoning. An Artifact that could create a book from raw materials in an hour, or even a day, would be even more revolutionary. Imagine books so cheap that every peasant household can have one or two, such as a treatise on new methods of agriculture, or advancements in animal husbandry, or even something so minor to us as Mendelian heredity. But the entire game line seems to be based on the idea that the Solars can't change things quickly and mustn't be allowed to. This might change in the current edition, but in 2e, at leave one developer stated directly that allowing easier Artifact construction for Solars would lead directly to First Age level artifice in a few years and that was entirely unacceptable.

The developers are childish jealous rules police now? The point of Exalted is that the Realm is a vast exotic playground waiting for a party of Celestial PCs to mutilate it beyond recognition with their terrible god-like power. The First Age ended BECAUSE the Solars weren't there to maintain it. If we wanted low magic campaigns where the PCs don't start Ragnarok then that's what Terrestrials, God-Blooded, Fair Folk, et al are for.

Quote from: Nexus;903534Cynically, I think its a move for sales. If your customers can easily write up new abilities they're less reliant on the supplement treadmill.

Another symptom of that is the "look but don't touch" attitude toward the setting. If you let the PCs burn down the setting and start rebuilding in their own image, every play group's setting becomes its own thing which probably will have little to do with the setting as presented in future supplements. It can also be a case of GMs/designers that are too in love with their own setting as well. Back in the days when homebrew D&D setting were the norm, I remember GMs that were so precious about their setting that they seemed more worried about the PCs breaking anything than actually running a fun game. It's not surprising that an edition of Exalted written by Exalted fanboys would be appalled at the idea of anyone messing up their beloved setting.

I think that while there are reasons these attitudes exist, sometimes they just keep going on out of habit. Back in the '80s, the idea that you needed to keep the players in line seemed to just be conventional wisdom, and largely went unexamined. Exalted is a very conservative game in a lot of ways, so maybe there is no more reason for it to follow these ideas than that they are ones the designers grew up with.

It's a shame really. My ideal Exalted campaign would play out something like the run of the Miracleman comic. It would build up to an epic battle which would be followed by the world becoming something utterly unrecognizable and strange.