Quote from: Warboss Squee;900639That was a load of BS from back in the 2ED days.  The same people saying 'well you can take over a small nation as a starting character' are real quick to get behind the idea that the Guild is somehow immutable.

The Guild is one of those troublesome aspects of the setting that has actually gotten more annoying in 3rd.

Here is what I've been able to find with a cursory search that took me all of 15 minutes...

Quote from: Ex3, p. 21The Sidereals kept a close watch for the few Solars who continued to be reborn into the world. With powerful astrology and mystical instruments of detection, the Sidereals guided armed strike forces of Dragon-Blooded to destroy newly emergent Solars before they had a chance to gain power. Such groups came to be called the Wyld Hunt, and their inquisitions became inseparable from the Immaculate religion. For centuries, the Wyld Hunt rode down, captured and slaughtered the Solar Exalted with impunity.

That's purposefully written in past tense, talking about the creation of the Realm post-Usurpation. Now contrast this with...

Quote from: Ex3, p.23The Return of the Solar Exalted
[/BAfter a millennia of vigilance, the Wyld Hunt has lapsed.

Simple and to the point. It's even separated by a paragrpaph break.

Quote from: Ex3, p.30Wyld Hunt, the: A Wyld Hunt is a group of Dragon-Blooded who band together to hunt and kill the Anathema. The Wyld Hunt has been weakened by the impending war for the Realm’s throne. It will not stay that way.

Do you really need "you have an window of opportunity" spelled out in giant letters? Does your GM needs it spelled out?
And then we come to the setting's chapter.

Quote from: Ex3 p. 74The [Wyld Hunt as an] institution is prevalent across Creation—not only is it practiced by the Seventh Legion of Lookshy, it is the rubric under which rural outcaste Terrestrials form posses
and assert protective solidarity and collective interests. The Realm’s own Wyld Hunts are spread thinner than at any point in prior centuries, but no less deadly than ever before when they do appear.

Each Exigent must labor over many lifetimes to purify the taint on his soul through correct living under the tenets of the Immaculate Philosophy, but such purification is made possible through the grace of the Dragons, ultimately leading to the potential for redemption and rebirth as one of the Dragon-Blooded—so the Immaculate Order claims. Exigent recidivists who threaten the stability of the Realm are sorrowfully dispatched by the Wyld Hunt, perhaps to find greater wisdom in their next life.
The Sidereal Exalted aren’t widely known to exist. As such, a revealed Sidereal would likely be mistaken for an Exigent. Those who are aware of the Sidereals know them as rare and reclusive Chosen who labor in the shadows to uphold the proper, fated order of the world—that is, the dominion of the Realm. Liminals are blasphemous aberrations against the natural order, but so are all things of the Underworld; the Wyld Hunt rides against them if they seem an active danger to Dragon-Blooded hegemony, but pays them no special attention otherwise. A few satraps have hired Liminal mercenaries to deal with the unquiet dead.

First, we have a confirmation: the Wyld Hunt is stretched thin, and can't respond to all emergencies (refer to my previous post with explanation what "stretched thin" entails). Therefore, smart players only need to avoid becoming its priority targets.

What follows from the Exigent remark, though?
Well, it follows that as long as you're unrecognised - almost trivial for Night Castes, slightly harder for Eclipses and for some sorcerors, but not really challenging for anyone, IME - you can very well pass as an Exigeant, too. Knowing that the Wyld Hunt exists, you should be trying to do that, until you're ready to fight them openly.
Of course, you can pass as a sorcerer even more easily in this edition...especially since sorcerers can be mortals, now!

Quote from: Ex3 pp. 108-109Yena’s Daughters
Three war-bands, calling themselves Yena’s Daughters, have made the Diamond Road that runs between Gem and the Lap their hunting ground. The Realm publicly dismisses them as mere bandits, but if even half of the stories told in caravanserais and wine sinks are true, then these mere bandits have inflicted untold damage in lost revenue and lives. Tribute caravans simply vanish into the desert, one after another.

Yena’s daughters are a trio of hyena-women, inheritors of their mother’s ferocity and survival instincts.

Yena Bone-Breaker coordinates her daughters’ efforts and leads their fiercest raids. Her laughter echoes amongthe red canyons and rolls across the burning dunes. Yena’s Daughters frustrate every attempt to find their lairs and rally a Wyld Hunt. They stalk the walled villages and oasis-towns of the Diamond Road, leaving precious trinkets, stolen food, and heaps of silver on the doorsteps of the common folk to buy their goodwill. Yena herself descends in the night to devour the bones of any who inform the Realm of their movements. The losses continue to mount.

Here's an example of people leaving their mark on the setting. And if some God-Blooded can do that, you can do it, too. Their whole story is "I'm using 5 of my 7 Merit points wisely", from a PC's point of view.
And yet they're already bandit-queens! Can you do better? Rhetorical question, of course. You've got Solar Charms, and immense power. Of course you can!
If you play it smart, that is.


Oh, and just because it needed to be said when people mention "previous editions".

Quote from: Ex2, p. 19Wyld Hunt: The Hunt is a group of battle-hardened Dragon-Blooded gathered both from the Immaculate Order and the Realm military for the express purpose of hunting down Anathema. With the disappearance of the Scarlet Empress, the Wyld Hunt’s effectiveness has begun to suffer, as those Dragon-Bloods who would be most effective in the Hunt now choose to stay at home to lend their support to their Great Houses in the contest for the Scarlet Throne.

Quote from: Ex2, p,32Indeed, there is a close connection between the growing confusion within the Realm and the reappearance of the Solar Exalted. The Wyld Hunt no longer pursues its Anathema with the vigor it did during the days of the Empress. Instead, like all the resources of the Realm, the Wyld Hunt is increasingly turned to the purposes of various rival powers within the Realm, rather than against the Realm’s external enemies.

Yup, almost repeating the 1e statement on the matter. And adding to that...

Quote from: Ex2, p.38Most disturbing to the leaders of the Hunt these days are the sheer number of targets. It used to be that there would be one Anathema loose every decade. Now, there are dozens in the Scavenger Lands and hundreds more in the Threshold as a whole, and there have been at least 20 on the Blessed Isle itself.

So, to summarize...a system that was working great, now has to outperform itself on less resources. Do you really need "they're going to prioritize targets" spelled out?

Fuck it, here's the 1e corebook's descriptions...also summarily ignored in some groups, it seems.

Quote from: Ex1, p. 13Any attempt to deploy the legions abroad was seen as a maneuver in the struggle for control of the throne — the armies of the Realm were paralyzed. Even the Wyld Hunt has fallen to the wayside, as the contenders for the throne gather their every iota of power.
...

This is the world into which your character has come. After millennia of vigilance, the Wyld Hunt has lapsed. And at this moment of weakness, the Solar Exalted have returned. Not a tiny handful, but a great mass of them. It is as if a gate was opened and the heroes of old rushed through it and returned to the world.

Quote from: Ex1, p.16Wyld Hunt: A powerful group of battle-hardened and devout Dragon-Blooded that the Immaculate Order used to hunt Anathema. Now that the Scarlet Empress has disappeared and the various lesser powers of the Realm have begun to vie for the throne, most of the Dragon-Blooded who served in the Wyld Hunt have, instead, chosen to stay close to home, to lend their might to the various contenders for rulership of the Realm.

QuoteSince the disappearance of the Empress, the feuding houses of the Realm have begun to divert all the empire’s resources to fuel their internecine squabbles and their jockeying for the throne. The once-ubiquitous network of spies and informants with which the Empress searched for the Celestials has begun to unravel, subverted by the intelligence apparatuses of the various houses or reassigned to deal with the nobles’ growing disloyalty. And at this dark moment, it seems as if a great flood of Solars, more than have ever been seen before, has entered the world, at the one moment when the Dragon-Blooded are no longer in a position to do anything about it. Today, the Wyld Hunt must often rely on mortal assassins and outcaste bounty hunters, rather than the massive and well-armed hunting parties of the past.

Quote from: Ex1, p. 45Even the operation of the Wyld Hunt has decreased in efficiency, as the Eye’s Sidereal astrologers are forced to turn their attention to the doings of the houses, rather than the emergence of the Anathema. It many cases, the Wyld Hunt must rely on outcaste assassins, reserving its deadly Sidereal and Dragon-Blooded killers for the most dangerous of targets.

Yeah, there's definitely a trend, here;).
I guess they expected people running the 3e to know all about the workings of the Wyld Hunt already, because the amount of info on it is lessened in every subsequent edition.

And here's the thing about "Solars are heroes, but heroes don't necessarily enjoy long-term successes"...from the Exalted 1 Corebook, no less.

Quote from: Ex1, p.21Thus goes the existence of the Solar Exalted — to wield the power of the Sun but to do so with the greatest economy possible, showing their true mighty only when the need is great. Traveling the roads as mendicants, pilgrims and fugitives, they tread lightly and fight when they have no choice or when their consciences compel them to. Some have crowned themselves kings and queens, but so far, their reigns have been brief and ended by the knives of the Wyld Hunt or by some regional power fearful of competition. Those Solars who wish to survive the maturity of their power must play a game of high and low — living as vagabonds, bandits and troubadours while they master their great power and learn the secrets of their Exalted state.

I can't count the number of tales I've read where the lawful king does exactly that. So I'm not going to try. Let's just say that to me, that's what heroes do - and I'd expect anyone with a modicum of knowledge about legends, myths and tales, to know it as well.

But pay attention: they can crown themselves! They're just unlikely to keep it for long - but they would definitely leave their mark on the world!
Which happens to be exactly what I was saying in this thread...

Quote from: Crüesader;900608We're discussing a game based on what the creators and those who've played it have said.  I have to be honest, I don't really see the need to throw $30+ at something to form an opinion on it- especially if what I've read from the creators and active players has been enough to steer me away from it.  If they implement Alchemicals (and do it well), then I'll jump on the bandwagon and buy it and try it.

But also, people are talking about Solars and I've never found them to be interesting or fun to play.  It does seem, from what I have read, that the game tries to steer players using Solars toward playing very traditional-level campaigns.  The fun of Exalted was "Yes, you're a badass mother fucker from the start, but everything you're up against is as well".  I remember educating a friend of mine- "Yes, you can smash mortals with very little effort.  Individually.  Now, fight the Battalion that they sent at you."

If you want to know the truth, I have been told that the combat system has improved drastically over 'Perfect or Die until mote burnout' (which meant combat-focused Abyssals, Soulsteel Alchemicals, and anyone using Soulsteel could nearly always win by attrition).

Sure, if it doesn't sound like fun, it doesn't. You can look into fan-made Alchemical charms already, BTW.
But it also means that you're relying on second-hand opinions, at best.

As a side note, how did soulsteal users even make any use of their mote-draining? It only happens "When a soulsteel weapon strikes a target". With perfect defences, that's "not until you're out of motes anyway".

Quote from: Nexus;900609I've play tested the vaunted combat system and tried character generation at this point. Found both to a be dreary slog.

I definitely agree on character generation:D!
On the combat system I disagree with your statement, though.

QuoteAs far as complaints about the fluff not much has changed from earlier editions where these same issues existed and what has largely aggravates them.

Did it? The "Wyld Hunt issue" was solved in 1e and 2e. It is solved in 3e as well by giving you the window of opportunity.
If you mean the "some people are better than others" problem, I don't find it to be a problem;).

QuoteThere are actual plays to read and discussion. It doesn't take psychic abilities to examine the setting and the rules. Evaluations of games are made every day by people that aren't running campaigns. That's what reviews are. At some point I'll probably try to slog though a friend's copy but so far I haven't seen anything that remotely makes it worth my while.

Reviews are written with the book at hand, at least. I've written a few.
Also, there are "playtest reviews", written after playing or running it. Guess which ones would you trust more?

Unless I'm misunderstanding your "might slog through a friend's copy" comment, you haven't made that yet. So, all your outrage about the issues the game has, was spent on a game you haven't read..
Glad we cleared that out.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;900612I've played quite a bit of 3rd, actually.  And while there are several things I like, there are quite a bit more that I do not.  One thing I noticed that made combat (yes, just focusing on one aspect atm) much more difficult for Solars versus mortals is that unless you have an Extra Action charm, you're limited to one attack per turn.  So if you're fighting multiple opponents, you are going to get absolutely hammered.

Am I? Penalty negator charms are still there, as well as flurry-breakers. You'd think I can actually use those against multiple named enemies...oh wait, I really can!

QuoteThe lack of flurries and weapon rates has done a lot to make Solars much more squishy, to the point that if you are using Supernal [Ability] to get to your chosen combat types EA charm, being outnumbered is a death penalty.

Mwahahaha, no:D! You just proved why reading the fucking book matters.

Shadow over Water and Leaping Dodge Method are still there, and still ensure that your group of named enemies is just going to be that much meat for the Solar's Cleaver.
But that's 5 charms...maybe I should just take Dipping Swallow Defense and Bulwark stance, which are two charms with no prerequisites, and ensure that I take no penalties until the end of the round. There, your onslaught penalties are out. Outnumber me all you want! If I also have Solar Counterattack, you're going to suffer. A lot.
And that's all Essence 1 Charms. If I'm Essence 2, or Supernal Melee, I also have Heavenly Guardian Defence and Solar Counterattack. Which, translated, means that anyone attempting to harm me is likely to suffer for the impertinence.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;9006202 on 1 combat is something to avoid in this edition.  I never had that much trouble with mooks in 2nd.

You had trouble with mooks? How so?

Quote from: Jetstream;900652If you're solo-fighting more than three or four people, they should always be using the Battle Group rules.

Indeed. I don't really like mob rules, either, but that's how the system works. Ignore it at your peril.

Quote from: Nexus;900681The Guild is one of those troublesome aspects of the setting that has actually gotten more annoying in 3rd.

And once again, we disagree on setting issues.

Quote from: AsenRG;900693As a side note, how did soulsteal users even make any use of their mote-draining? It only happens "When a soulsteel weapon strikes a target". With perfect defences, that's "not until you're out of motes anyway".

"Strikes" your target.  Not "damages" your target.  Not every defense is a dodge.

Though don't take my word for it, I can't recall a battle like this- just something I came to the conclusion to some time ago.

Quote from: Crüesader;900695"Strikes" your target.  Not "damages" your target.  Not every defense is a dodge.

Though don't take my word for it, I can't recall a battle like this- just something I came to the conclusion to some time ago.

Yes, soulsteel might be nasty if you're relying on perfect soak. But perfect defences are only perfect dodge, perfect parry and perfect soak. Two out of three apply, and nobody could rely on perfect soak alone due to the Bad Touch Charms, so everyone had at least one of the other two as well, IME.

I think Soulsteel weapons only inflicted mote drains if you struck your target (beat their Defensive value) not if they used a Parry based Defense. Other yeah, they'd be one Hell of an "I win" button. Besides Perfect Defenses negated any other Touch based negative effects when employed. Perfect Soak, OTOH, not so much.

Ex2, page 387: In the hands of an Abyssal Exalt, a soulsteel melee weapon is +2 Accuracy and drains a number of motes of Essence equal to the wielder’s permanent Essence whenever it strikes a target and inflicts at least one health level of damage.

There was also an Abyssal Charm that let the weapon's wielders add those motes to his own pool.

Okay AsenRG.  I will agree with you only because you actually shown page numbers in the book instead of wasting everyone's time with events in your game.  You can make changes in Exalted.

Still Godbound is better.

Quote from: AsenRG;900693Reviews are written with the book at hand, at least. I've written a few.

And as I said I've read those review commentary from the people that wrote the game, people that play it and sections of the book itself. What of it?

QuoteAlso, there are "playtest reviews", written after playing or running it. Guess which ones would you trust more?

Yeah, that's why I read them and they are part of what formed my opinions.

Playing the game doesn't magically change the things written on the page or make how you chose to interpret it. Hell, some of the play test reviews noted the same things I did and I've tested the mechanics myself.  I've also seen (and used) the combat mechanics, seen what typical 'weakened" Wyld Hunt looks like in editions 1-3 and ran the game in 1st to 2nd for 10 yrs. The Sidereals hardcore (both editions) still presents them as having and using the abillity to pin point essence users and guide hunts to you unless you lay low. It just doesn't happen as quickly so you essentially have the chance to run and hide instead of being wack a mole when they're there when you first Exalt. Still not the "game of epic power where you're a move and shaker from the get go".

And that's just the sids. There's an array of other PC stompers gunning for Solar PCs out of the gate with the ability to find you and quickly and more potent than they're going to be for sometime. You can handwave those away or change things. I DID but it feels like you're fighting the intent of the game despite what its huped as being.

Quote from: Snowman0147;900707Okay AsenRG.  I will agree with you only because you actually shown page numbers in the book instead of wasting everyone's time with events in your game.  You can make changes in Exalted.

Well, of course you can. Hammering it into shape and dragging on despite that anchor of system and ignoring the setting issues is what allot of the fanbase has been doing. That doesn't make it a good thing.

QuoteStill Godbound is better.

It certainly seems to be better at living up to the promises of Exalted without as much work where you start off with reputation as being a Big Damn Deal but without much to back it up.

Quote from: Snowman0147;900707Okay AsenRG.  I will agree with you only because you actually shown page numbers in the book instead of wasting everyone's time with events in your game.  You can make changes in Exalted.

Thanks:). That was my point.

QuoteStill Godbound is better.

Arguably, for some people, that would be true.
I think that per RAW, they just have subtle differences that would take me longer to get into, but which make them more of a case of "different games for different people". And of course, I've backed Godbound and Exalted 3e, no surprise in me liking them both;).

Quote from: Nexus;900713And as I said I've read those review commentary from the people that wrote the game, people that play it and sections of the book itself. What of it?


Yeah, that's why I read them and they are part of what formed my opinions.

OK, sure, you've put a lot of work in it, then.
Other people might not have.

QuotePlaying the game doesn't magically change the things written on the page or make how you chose to interpret it. Hell, some of the play test reviews noted the same things I did and I've tested the mechanics myself.  I've also seen (and used) the combat mechanics, seen what typical 'weakened" Wyld Hunt looks like in editions 1-3 and ran the game in 1st to 2nd for 10 yrs.

The first time I ran Exalted was almost 10 years ago, too.

QuoteThe Sidereals hardcore (both editions) still presents them as having and using the abillity to pin point essence users and guide hunts to you unless you lay low.

Ability and resources aren't the same thing.

QuoteIt just doesn't happen as quickly so you essentially have the chance to run and hide instead of being wack a mole when they're there when you first Exalt. Still not the "game of epic power where you're a move and shaker from the get go".

Being able to become king in days isn't "being a mover and shaker" in your book?

QuoteAnd that's just the sids. There's an array of other PC stompers gunning for Solar PCs out of the gate with the ability to find you and quickly and more potent than they're going to be for sometime. You can handwave those away or change things. I DID but it feels like you're fighting the intent of the game despite what its huped as being.

See the p.21 sidebar in Exalted 1 edition, and my commentary on it in my previous post.
All the other threats also have their issues, leading to them not having the resources for you, BTW.

Quote from: Nexus;900714Well, of course you can. Hammering it into shape and dragging on despite that anchor of system and ignoring the setting issues is what allot of the fanbase has been doing. That doesn't make it a good thing.

I'm not saying the current Exalted system is perfect for Exalted, BTW. My choice would rather be Reign, for the Company rules.
And see my previous post for an example why the "setting issues" are implied in the setting to not be issues. They're, rather, opportunities - if you approach them the right way.

But I'm enjoying Exalted for the game it is, and I've tacked the Company rules from Reign on top of it, without even telling the players;).

QuoteIt certainly seems to be better at living up to the promises of Exalted without as much work where you start off with reputation as being a Big Damn Deal but without much to back it up.

Possibly yes, for some people.

Quote from: AsenRG;900728Being able to become king in days isn't "being a mover and shaker" in your book?

Not when the Unstoppable Righteous Assassins of Heaven absolutely will kill you within a week. It's pretty simple, really: Using the setting as presented, if a Solar draws the attention of the Sidereals, or most elder Lunars, or the Realm, or the Deathlords, or... well, pretty well any of the existing Big Noises, those Noises will do their best to flatten the Solars. They'll use what I once saw referred to as the Bellerophon Protocol: send a weak force to scout. If they fail, go straight to the biggest guns available. Don't bother with ramping up gradually. And since Solars draw a lot of attention by their very natures, then yes, they'll getting splatted in short order and all their works will be undone. This doesn't sound much like "mover and shaker" to me. To avoid this, a Solar has to go way the heck back of beyond and spend however long it takes to reach Essence 5, master every form of mental and physical conflict, learn every Charm relating to them, and then, maybe, have a chance of not getting splatted within a week of starting to actually do things. Frankly, the ST in 1e and even more in 2e is strongly encouraged to throw everything available at the PCs any and every time they get noticed.

Quote from: Whitewings;900752Not when the Unstoppable Righteous Assassins of Heaven absolutely will kill you within a week.

That's pretty much bullshit:). I've pretty much lost the count of how many Unstoppable Righteous Assassins I have evaded or killed, personally. Add to that the Unstoppable Unrighteous Assassins, and the Unstoppable Nihilistic Courtiers...and yeah, I don't care to count:p!

QuoteIt's pretty simple, really: Using the setting as presented, if a Solar draws the attention of the Sidereals, or most elder Lunars, or the Realm, or the Deathlords, or... well, pretty well any of the existing Big Noises, those Noises will do their best to flatten the Solars.

As a Solar, I have only one answer to that.
"You're welcome to try, bitches".

QuoteThey'll use what I once saw referred to as the Bellerophon Protocol: send a weak force to scout. If they fail, go straight to the biggest guns available. Don't bother with ramping up gradually.

The biggest guns can't be everywhere at once. That applies to PCs as well as to NPCs.
If you play the NPCs as not subject to this simple law (while the PCs will obviously be subject to it)...I can only say that I'm sorry that your GM sucks;).
Hint: there are more Solars after the halving than there ever were Sidereals. And Solars are amazingly resilient and able to survive. And there are more Anathema than just Solars. And everything I posted about the Wyld Hunt applies to pretty much every other faction out there...do your own searches to find how.
And, at the end, the Lunars do manage to operate, somehow. Take a note from those that have been doing it for far longer.

QuoteAnd since Solars draw a lot of attention by their very natures, then yes, they'll getting splatted in short order and all their works will be undone.

There's no "will", it's a roleplaying game. If the GM knows what will happen...just tell me and then I'll go home.

QuoteFrankly, the ST in 1e and even more in 2e is strongly encouraged to throw everything available at the PCs any and every time they get noticed.

Apart from the quotes from 1e and 2e that I just posted, you mean:D?

Seriously, your logic is flawed on so many levels, it's not even funny.
Hint, your argument is that "they do that unless they're stupid".
But the real trick is...you don't do that unless you're either a homicidal maniac or stupid. Oh, and even if you are, you still only do that if you have the resources available.
You learn there's a Solar. That means there's a very large, hard to direct, very dangerous missile in flight. What do you do?
Simple answer: you destroy it, possibly expending resources and neglecting whatever else you could achieve by them.
Smarter answer: You hack it and it can now do your work for you. Problem is, if you fail, you have to revert to
Smarter answer: you misdirect it to aim at someone who was causing you trouble, and now he has to tie up his resources to deal with it. If you do that right, neither the missile not the target would know who did the misdirection;).

Oh sure, it can backfire. Is there any reason you think the Exalted antagonists aren't just as confident in their abilities to pull it off, though?
And don't even get me started on all the ways to deal with those that take the simple solution:D!

Be a king in days? When taking over or even just making in roads into the Guild (the British East India Company meets the mafia) is described a the work of a major campaign arc (both by the text, enthusiastic fans and the people that wrote the game?). Then you can expect the shortest reign ever because you just shot to the top of the Kill List of several groups.

This begs the question.  Why don't the Solars just journey off to the wyld and make islands of creation?  Escape just about every thing and you keep what you make.  I mean if your constantly losing every thing that you build in creation a solar might be frustrated enough to call it quits and ditch creation to its own fate.

In all honesty, this can very quickly come to look like a very good idea. And a starting Solar can actually do it, with Supernal Lore. I just worked it out, and you can create a starting Twilight with the entire Wyld-Shaping tree, save for Tome-Rearing Gesture. And that's only because Tome-Rearing Gesture requires an Essence 3 Linguistics Charm.