Which is why I try to argue as close to Rules as Written as possible, simply because that's how one can get as close to a baseline assumption as one can, and even personal perceptions can make that difficult.  The problem with a lot of White Wolf games is that the rules are so vague and sometimes contradictory that most arguments devolve very quickly into personal perceptions, more so than other games, because at the end of the day, that's all it has.

Quote from: Baron Opal;900450That's an odd thread.

Yes, yes it is.

I must first note a conspicuous lack of hands being shown. My, do you mean you're discussing a game you're not even playing;)?

Quote from: Anglachel;900543And again...maybe for you, Asen.

For me and for everyone who paid attention to the same parts of the RAW instead of ignoring them selectively, you mean:).

QuoteI for one, have a lot of similar experiences like the posters you are so long windedly writing against. Exalted was advertised to be about Demigods...tag lines in the line of "not like dnd, you get to be badass from the very first moment" etc etc . You were promised to play movers and shakers of the setting FROM THE FUCKING START.

You mean your GM didn't let you be movers and shakers from the fucking start?
Listen, grasshopper: The moment a Circle of Celestial Exalts want to take over a small-to-medium sized city...they can do it. Might not be subtle about it, and might not get to keep it for long, might even be sorry about taking it - because, IME, beginner Solars often try to impose changes that don't fit and their best intentions often lead to more misery...but they can do it.

QuoteAnd then you play it and....nothing, nada... if you play it by RAW, that is.

The first time I played Exalted was by RAW. The first time I ran Exalted was by RAW. The above is what we got from both occasions.

QuoteThat you, Asen, can twist and turn the setting and the rules as you see fit...i believe you in an instant (because you tell us that in many other threads here or on rpg.net how much you know systems and houserule them to suit your needs)...but that is not what every GM can or even wants to do.

Except I'm not twisting the rules. I even gave up on the creation of my Ex3/Godbound hack.
The results still aren't changing.

QuoteSo yeah, agreeing whole-heartedly with other posters here that Exalted never kept what it promised in RAW.

It has worked in 2e and 3e RAW. Maybe I should run a 1e game just to be sure.

QuoteI absolutely agree that you can have that game, if you want to and if the GM plays along (or if you are the GM, if you are willing to change lots of stuff so that it plays like advertised by WW back in the day).

Apart from being the GM, I've played Exalted with different GMs, too. It does play as I described.

QuoteOh and if it was not clear...i'm talking about "out of the gate with a new edition" aka if you play Solars. All those advertisements are mostly about the main splat. "Evolve your game!"...yeah, right! :rolleyes:

And just to be clear, I'm also talking about Solars, both in 2e and in 3e.

Quote from: Whitewings;900545The infamous "Jon Chung Exalted," with its paranoia Combos and a minimum survival package that took up 8 of a Solar's initial ten Charms and required certain Attributes and Abilities at 5 each, was something Jon Chung himself detested. But it was a direct consequence of the rules as written and the setting as presented. Using both, there were literally no other build options that would allow a Solar to live long enough to become personally powerful enough to even attempt to accumulate political or economic power.

Wrong. There were enough build options that allowed that, you just risked getting ganked in every fight. Because in this case, it was ultimately about luck.

Quote from: Snowman0147;900552I am sick of this.  AsenRG you need to hear this.  Using your private game is a SHITTY MEASURING STICK.

What do you want me to use, theorywank:D?

QuoteIt always leads to this shit.

A: "Well in my game Ma Machine II was easy to defeat."

B: "Well in my game Ma Machine II did a total party kill."

C: "Well in my game we made deals with Ma Machine II and became cyborgs."

Sure, individual games vary.

QuoteThis is before we touch upon GMs who each one is unique.  Some are strict, others hand waving, and so on.

And some handwave away the portions of the text that tell them "no, it's not supposed to be as hard as you think". As seen in this thread.
I'm also sorry if your GM sucks, but can't really help that;).

QuotePoint is what happens at your game has no creditably because too many factors question that creditably.  All your doing by bringing your game up is saying you have no real argument to make.  Your telling people to ignore you.

Fine, when I get home, I am going to post you the relevant points that say that "you start as being chased by Sidereal assassins" is BS.

QuoteNow before you get mad please understand.  What happen in your game would make a great story to tell in the forum.  All I am saying is that your personal game is a poor argument.  That goes for me as well.  What goes on in my game would be a shit argument as well.

Sure, but I also pointed out what parts of the RAW I believe others are missing. For some reason, nobody was willing to listen to that, either. Not even when I quoted the 1e, and there's a 1e fan in the thread...but he didn't pay attention, either!
Makes me think that some people simply have an axe to grind, frankly.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;900571Which is why I try to argue as close to Rules as Written as possible, simply because that's how one can get as close to a baseline assumption as one can, and even personal perceptions can make that difficult.  The problem with a lot of White Wolf games is that the rules are so vague and sometimes contradictory that most arguments devolve very quickly into personal perceptions, more so than other games, because at the end of the day, that's all it has.

And I argued from the Rules As Written and Setting As Written.
There's nothing contradictory about the rules at least in 2e and 3e, though I'd like to see 1e rules on the table before passing judgement on those. Both latest editions more or less have rules that mean "being a Solar, you only need minimal investment to trump anyone who doesn't seriously outmatch you in mundane skill and equipment".
Said rules are called "limits to dice added by Charms".

Quote from: AsenRG;900607I must first note a conspicuous lack of hands being shown. My, do you mean you're discussing a game you're not even playing;)?

We're discussing a game based on what the creators and those who've played it have said.  I have to be honest, I don't really see the need to throw $30+ at something to form an opinion on it- especially if what I've read from the creators and active players has been enough to steer me away from it.  If they implement Alchemicals (and do it well), then I'll jump on the bandwagon and buy it and try it.

But also, people are talking about Solars and I've never found them to be interesting or fun to play.  It does seem, from what I have read, that the game tries to steer players using Solars toward playing very traditional-level campaigns.  The fun of Exalted was "Yes, you're a badass mother fucker from the start, but everything you're up against is as well".  I remember educating a friend of mine- "Yes, you can smash mortals with very little effort.  Individually.  Now, fight the Battalion that they sent at you."

If you want to know the truth, I have been told that the combat system has improved drastically over 'Perfect or Die until mote burnout' (which meant combat-focused Abyssals, Soulsteel Alchemicals, and anyone using Soulsteel could nearly always win by attrition).

I've play tested the vaunted combat system and tried character generation at this point. Found both to a be dreary slog. As far as complaints about the fluff not much has changed from earlier editions where these same issues existed and what has largely aggravates them.  Most of them have been and are being openly discussed. There are actual plays to read and discussion. It doesn't take psychic abilities to examine the setting and the rules. Evaluations of games are made every day by people that aren't running campaigns. That's what reviews are. At some point I'll probably try to slog though a friend's copy but so far I haven't seen anything that remotely makes it worth my while.

I've played quite a bit of 3rd, actually.  And while there are several things I like, there are quite a bit more that I do not.  One thing I noticed that made combat (yes, just focusing on one aspect atm) much more difficult for Solars versus mortals is that unless you have an Extra Action charm, you're limited to one attack per turn.  So if you're fighting multiple opponents, you are going to get absolutely hammered.  The lack of flurries and weapon rates has done a lot to make Solars much more squishy, to the point that if you are using Supernal [Ability] to get to your chosen combat types EA charm, being outnumbered is a death penalty.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;900612I've played quite a bit of 3rd, actually.  And while there are several things I like, there are quite a bit more that I do not.  One thing I noticed that made combat (yes, just focusing on one aspect atm) much more difficult for Solars versus mortals is that unless you have an Extra Action charm, you're limited to one attack per turn.  So if you're fighting multiple opponents, you are going to get absolutely hammered.  The lack of flurries and weapon rates has done a lot to make Solars much more squishy, to the point that if you are using Supernal [Ability] to get to your chosen combat types EA charm, being outnumbered is a death penalty.

Combat does seem to be even more of a numbers game which groups of DB extremely dangerous.

Quote from: Nexus;900613Combat does seem to be even more of a numbers game which groups of DB extremely dangerous.

DBs? Hell, Militia are a huge threat if there's more than ten of them and they aren't in a group.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;900614DBs? Hell, Militia are a huge threat if there's more than ten of them and they aren't in a group.

I and others brought this up. The response boiled down to groups of singular mortals are always supposed to be in a battlegroup unless the indidivuals are "narratively significant". Dragonblooded, being Exalts, are always supposed to be "narratively significant" so are never in battle groups. And oh the shit storm that rose up when I suggested ignoring that for some games...

Quote from: Nexus;900619I and others brought this up. The response boiled down to groups of singular mortals are always supposed to be in a battlegroup unless the indidivuals are "narratively significant". Dragonblooded, being Exalts, are always supposed to be "narratively significant" so are never in battle groups. And oh the shit storm that rose up when I suggested ignoring that for some games...

2 on 1 combat is something to avoid in this edition.  I never had that much trouble with mooks in 2nd.

I've never shot myself in the head but just from reading about it I can tell I won't like it.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;9006202 on 1 combat is something to avoid in this edition.  I never had that much trouble with mooks in 2nd.

Yep, can't argue there. I never liked the "narratively significant" answer either. I guess its the sim(?) guy in me but if you can fight 2+ more guys single handedly then any mob style rules should just serve to speed up the combat not radically alter your chances.

And its not just combat. See the current (in the WIR Ex 3 thread) and earlier discussion about why no Exalts have infiltrated/taken over the Guild.

Quote from: Nexus;900634And its not just combat. See the current (in the WIR Ex 3 thread) and earlier discussion about why no Exalts have infiltrated/taken over the Guild.

That was a load of BS from back in the 2ED days.  The same people saying 'well you can take over a small nation as a starting character' are real quick to get behind the idea that the Guild is somehow immutable.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;900614DBs? Hell, Militia are a huge threat if there's more than ten of them and they aren't in a group.

If you're solo-fighting more than three or four people, they should always be using the Battle Group rules.