Quote from: James Gillen;900316Even in previous editions, Lunars were always supposed to be the setting equivalent of Garou: Billy badass.   Their role in the structure was to be mated to a given Solar and act as their bodyguard.  So consider how powerful you'd have to be to be a Solar's bodyguard.

Except the part where this isn't true. They're the ultimate generalists, and cover whichever areas the Solar has issues with.

QuoteIf we think of elder Lunars and Sidereals as "20th level characters" it makes sense that PCs could bridge the gap, although given the level of intrigue in the setting you would have to figure out how to compete on that level and build a power base just to survive.  Hopefully a given GM would build his campaign on that premise and not just Monster of the Week.

That part, however, is true:).

QuoteSo it doesn't disturb me that some people are (now) more powerful than Solars.  It disturbs me that the threats to a beginning Solar seem to have been ramped up from where they were in previous editions, such that, say, Dragon-Bloods are more at parity.

If you mean 3e, it's also a much bigger setting, making it that much harder to get a group to focus against you.

QuoteBut then the real contradiction is that in keeping with the epic stories, Exalted books have always- always, always- emphasized that all people in Creation are NOT created equal, and that by dint of reincarnation or some luck, your character who could have been peasant or local king is brought to the level of the greats, potentially even better than the Empress' nobility.  This doesn't jibe with modern people's expectations of humanist equality.  It didn't in the previous editions and it sure as hell doesn't to the PC crowd that has eaten RPG.net and the WW/OP community.  So you have something pretty close to the cartoon stereotype of giving everybody a trophy so that everybody gets to be "special" and nobody feels left out.

That's not a contradiction that concerns me.

Quote from: Nexus;900341The Lunars were consorts and partners of the Solar Exalted. Some served as bodyguards for their less combat focused mates, others were spies, assassins, lieutenants, lovers, etc. Apparently slaves was added in 3rd implying Desus and Lilith's warped relationship is going to be treated more as the norm.

I've missed the slaves part, and I don't really see it, but whatever. Whatever rocks their boats...

QuoteAnd oh the endless bitching about the Lunar Bond mechanics...

Indeed, and that is going to be fun:p!

QuoteI agree. Its not the mere existence of powerful beings that's (I hate this word) problematic. Its the set up which includes so many of them and put Solar PCs almost immediately in their sights. It might have been better if the Solars were long forgotten after being locked away for so long but with so many immortal and long lived being in the setting (some of which are trying to keeo them enshrined as "anathema") that doesn't really work in Setting as written. The return of the Solars is trumpted as Big Deal that everyone who's anyone is aware of and concerned about.

The problem is with the whole logic "they must be stupid to not off the Solars". No, they're not stupid.
I know a great car that will perfectly fit my needs, seldom needs repair, and is quite economic. The only problem? I can't afford it.
Do you think that not buying it makes me stupid, or something:D?
They have the same issue.

QuoteI definitely agree with you. It causes a little dissonance to see arguments about classical period ethics and ideas of morality and heroism in one breath and then calls for equality and modern "social justice" to be in forefront in the next. The push for some kind of equality has been going on for some time particularly for the Dragonblooded though it skews the setting to some degree. If DB are largely equivalent to Celestials/Solars, many times more numerous and self replicating it changes the dynamic.

But I really am not seeing the DBs as largely equivalent. The Solars in my campaign so far trump them at every single step;).

The comment on Lunars being slaves to the Solars comes from the glossary. There's a definite implication that they used start out that way, or at least decidedly submissive, in the section on them in the "Exalted types" section with the full page illustrations, but an equally strong one that they didn't normally stay that way, and a pretty clear statement that they don't want to go back to that.

Quote from: AsenRG;900357The problem is with the whole logic "they must be stupid to not off the Solars". No, they're not stupid.
I know a great car that will perfectly fit my needs, seldom needs repair, and is quite economic. The only problem? I can't afford it.
Do you think that not buying it makes me stupid, or something:D?
They have the same issue.

No they don't.  They have more than enough disposable income to be able to deal with a newly emerged group of Solars.  And even if they don't everyone has the fallback of calling on the Immaculate Order to handle the problem for them.  And the Immaculate Order has the disposable income to deal with a group.

What no one necessarily has, the disposable income to monitor all of Creation and determine when a new group of Solars pops up, is covered by the Bronze (IIRC) faction of the Sidereals.  The original source of the Elders problem.  And since they essentially control or direct the Immaculate Order it means that a kill squad should be on their way shortly.  Even if they don't spot the issue the first little god the Circle deposes will come bitching back to the Celestial Order about how some reincarnated pricks kicked him out of his plush spot and suddenly the Immaculate Order is on the case.

Maybe you don't have the disposable income nor the social network to cover the cost of a better car and for that I feel sorry for you.  But there are plenty of mechanisms in the Anti-Solar social network that are functioning properly enough to be able to deal with it immediately.  So that little god can't deal with them himself but big bad Judo-Chop Ketchup (or whatever the crap his real name was) is always there to deal with them.

I remember more bitching, particularly in 2e about how overpowered the Solars are and need to cut back and "balanbced" including long rants about they "ruin" the game if they even remotely live up to their hype. And as far in game experiences I participated in and actually witnesses that was never true. Siolars weren't thar powerful and any of the Exalt types could kick their ass. I saw this in actual games and various combat arena style competitions where you just made up the most optimized battler and fought it out. There were some possible builds that were lopsided with Solars but they weren't their baseline and all the splats had them like  Lunar combatant I saw that ended with 20+ attacks (at full dice pool) a turn.

Most of the Alchemical griping I recall was about their presentation in the "The Locust Crusade" as running roughshod over the established powers in Creation during their invastion like beatign the Realm navy despite having no experience with naval combat and similar events. The "meltdowns" about Solar (and sometimes Lunar) abilities that I recall generally stemmed from people getting fed up with the hype that "Solars are the mightiest and most powerful of the Exalted and Lunars a close second being belied by the steady introduction of splats that equaled or exceeded them which, IMO, overtly began with SMA but the later splats ,more polished charms sets just functioned and synergized better culminating in Infernals and also fit in with the general power escalation over the course of the line.

Quote from: Whitewings;900390The comment on Lunars being slaves to the Solars comes from the glossary. There's a definite implication that they used start out that way, or at least decidedly submissive, in the section on them in the "Exalted types" section with the full page illustrations, but an equally strong one that they didn't normally stay that way, and a pretty clear statement that they don't want to go back to that.

Oh, thanks, so it's from one of the parts I skipped. I thought that since I've been running games of Exalted for almost a decade, on and off, what can a glossary surprise me with;)?
Obvious flaws with the logic are less flaws and more like features when you consider that I approach Exalted, and all settings, with the assumption that "everything I don't think makes sense will be edited with extreme prejudice".

Quote from: KingCheops;900392No they don't.  They have more than enough disposable income to be able to deal with a newly emerged group of Solars.  And even if they don't everyone has the fallback of calling on the Immaculate Order to handle the problem for them.  And the Immaculate Order has the disposable income to deal with a group.

Man, read again your post and my post.
You're talking about disposable income.
I'm talking about resources, of which disposable income is only one, and in Exalted, not necessarily the most important one.

Also, the Immaculate order knows there's Anathema around! They just can't afford the time to do much about anything but the most egregious cases, because there's big fucking issues with their powerbase!
In short, they're in damage control mode, doing the bare minimum to not lose much influence. Are you THE most brutal offender in the vicinity? When there's fairies and runaway demons and stuff (which, yes, are equally important for now, since the Order needs to make good appearances - it's a goddamned religion, you know)? You'd need to do some serious stuf. It is possible if your Exalted thinks that "subtlety" is between "submitting" and "sucking" in the damned dictionary - but then do you really expect to achieve lasting successes with a guy like that:)?

Actually, speaking about subtlety - is it even clear that you're a Solar and not a Lunar, Outcaste, Exigeant or rampaging spirit, ghost, demon or fairy? (If it's obvious: you either like playing it risky, or you're an idiot. I like playing it risky, for the record).
If' you're the most important offender and  be so kind as to meet the hit squad, yes. You earned it. Consequences necessarily can be both good and bad!

You know how you make any empire retreat? You attack its capital and its most valuable resource centers. The Immaculates and the Sidereals have got this since Her Scarlet Magnificence disappeared from the throne. They did carry on with it for a couple years, which is why it wasn't clear immediately.
But by now, they should be in panic. They have all reasons to: someone stole their main asset from under their noses.
Oh yes, they have to look for the Empress as well, now that we mention it...

QuoteWhat no one necessarily has, the disposable income to monitor all of Creation and determine when a new group of Solars pops up, is covered by the Bronze (IIRC) faction of the Sidereals.  The original source of the Elders problem.

Exalted 1e solves that by explicitly telling you that the Sidereal astrologers need to monitor the Houses now, and can't produce astrological premonitions on Solars. Why do you want to contradict the corebook when it's explicitly solving your issues?
Note, I'm pretty sure I read something similar in Ex3 as well. It's just that I don't remember it well enough to reference it, and the last Exalted book I read was the 1e Corebook (which also has the best succinct explanation of the setting;)).

QuoteAnd since they essentially control or direct the Immaculate Order it means that a kill squad should be on their way shortly.  Even if they don't spot the issue the first little god the Circle deposes will come bitching back to the Celestial Order about how some reincarnated pricks kicked him out of his plush spot and suddenly the Immaculate Order is on the case.

That example, however, is why you don't just kick a god's ass and expect it to have no consequences. Either Ghost Eat him, Eclipse Bind him, or use some of your social charms to persuade him to serve you (or at least not rat you). All of them come with potential issues; the easier it is to do, the more it makes sure that you earn the title of "most egregious threat to meet a hit squad" when it is discovered.

QuoteMaybe you don't have the disposable income nor the social network to cover the cost of a better car and for that I feel sorry for you.

Don't, it was just an example:D! I was explicitly thinking about a rather expensive car.
Let's leave it at that, because that's not a thread about cars.

QuoteBut there are plenty of mechanisms in the Anti-Solar social network that are functioning properly enough to be able to deal with it immediately.  So that little god can't deal with them himself but big bad Judo-Chop Ketchup (or whatever the crap his real name was) is always there to deal with them.

Yes, of course...except he is established as signing off death warrants, not dealing with stuff himself. In essence, he's like a tour figure in chess: he's where he needs to be to guard the Empire, and ensure you're not going to be checkmated in a couple turns.
And he's good at that. He's also doubling at ensuring a threat, just like that tour. But he's not going to involve himself personally, yet. You're not that important to require that he weakens temporarily the protection of the Empire!
Can he misjudge when it's time? Of course. In fact, making him misjudge is what the game is about!
Or, if you don't manage that, you make him fail the assassination attempt by surviving - and if necessary, by running away and possibly, rebuilding.
And no, Exalted is not about succeeding while ignoring subtlety*. At worst, that can make you fail, at best, it would grant that you succeed at much greater cost.


If you want a rule of thumb for Exalted antagonists, it's this: They always want more than they have the resources for. No, that's not stupid: they need most of what they want. And they often can get it, but not at once.
Any Referee should establish their list of priorities, including "ganking the PCs or subverting them for his or her goals", and make sure to update it regularly. One thing will be granted: the list is three times longer than the available resource points, and many items require more than one resource point to be guaranteed to succeed, and maybe even more to be achieved flawlessly...
You know, like a certain mechanic in Godbound, except with added "flawed success"!

*Though the people that want to turn it into a mecha game might wish it was;). It's a regular topic of contention between me and some other posters on RPG.net, SilvercatMoonpaw being the first in the shortlist:D.

We may be at cross purposes because all my experience is with 2nd not 1st and we are in thread about 3rd where we are explicitly pixel bitching about issues that started in 2nd.  From everything I've heard about 1st there seem to be MAJOR differences in how the setting works and is presented between the two editions and 3rd is continuing on from the base of 2nd.  I certainly don't recall any mention of this astrology difficulty in 2nd (I fully accept I could be wrong since that is 10 years and 1 baby+1 on the way ago and Exalted was never anywhere near a #1 system/setting for me).

I think we can all understand the underlying point you are making -- that we can easily make it hard for the enemies to actually deal with a new group of Solar Exalts.

However that is not at all what the books present in 2nd at the very least.  You very explicitly have to make up some ground rules and probably explain them to your table to make sure everyone is on the same page.  You certainly have to do a butt-ton more exposition in character for Exalted that you'd like ever have to do for just about any game I can think to make sure they understand how all of this works.  "No mister Dawn we can't just slap down Gozer the Gozerian and free those people because my Twilight Lore lets me know that he'd just disappear back to Heaven and lodge a complaint with the Bureaucracy which would bring attention to us so let's let the Eclipse claim to be a God unless one of us happens to know how to eat his soul."

Quote from: Nexus;900292I think this thread illustrate some of the problems players have with the game and setting.

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?782337-Exalted-Tastes-and-Superheroes-(tangent-from-Sell-me-Exalted-3e)

That's an odd thread.

You know that is not what people expected when they bought the book.  When a person who is new to the game buys Exalted and/or Godbound they expect what is advertise.  You play a demigod of immense power and the capability to change the world.  In Godbound you do exactly that.  

In Exalted if you try doing that your gonna get problems because the setting isn't built like that.  You got to hide till your uber enough to expose yourself.  If people understood that they may not even bother.  It isn't what people expected and if the advertisements were more honest you would not get this issue.

Quote from: Snowman0147;900478You know that is not what people expected when they bought the book.  When a person who is new to the game buys Exalted and/or Godbound they expect what is advertise.  You play a demigod of immense power and the capability to change the world.  In Godbound you do exactly that.

It also depends on which type you're playing.  It was much more fun to play an Abyssal or Alchemical in 2e than it was to play a Solar.  I mean, being a Solar was so neutered by the setting- we played as if the Solars never returned, and all of them became Abyssals or Infernals.  But that's White Wolf shit for you.  

If White Wolf was a parent, they'd buy you a shiny new bicycle and then tell you that you can only ride it in the driveway.

Quote from: Snowman0147;900478In Exalted if you try doing that your gonna get problems because the setting isn't built like that.  You got to hide till your uber enough to expose yourself.  If people understood that they may not even bother.  It isn't what people expected and if the advertisements were more honest you would not get this issue.

And I've read it's even less like that, and almost generic fantasy nowadays.  The 'epic' scale of it is taken down.

Quote from: Crüesader;900479And I've read it's even less like that, and almost generic fantasy nowadays.  The 'epic' scale of it is taken down.

Then why bother?  Play Game of Thrones, or the game that RPGPundit made.  Sorry Pundit, but I cannot spell that word to save my life.  Back to the point.  You get a better experience from those two than Exalted.

Quote from: Snowman0147;900481Then why bother?  Play Game of Thrones, or the game that RPGPundit made.  Sorry Pundit, but I cannot spell that word to save my life.  Back to the point.  You get a better experience from those two than Exalted.

Because people still believe the hype, and frankly, because Exalted is not much of a system, it's easy to twist and hand wave the problems away.  Or so the various players convince themselves.

Quote from: KingCheops;900441We may be at cross purposes because all my experience is with 2nd not 1st and we are in thread about 3rd where we are explicitly pixel bitching about issues that started in 2nd.  From everything I've heard about 1st there seem to be MAJOR differences in how the setting works and is presented between the two editions and 3rd is continuing on from the base of 2nd.

"No" on both accounts.
First, that's not the root of our disagreements, because my experience is also with 2nd edition. Already the 2e corebook was enough to give me the idea that the Wyld Hunt doesn't have the resources to act at full capacity, including finding you if you lay low. I might search for the relevant passage tonight, if you wish. (Once again, I reference 1e because it's my latest acquisition in Exalted - currently reading Ex1e: Sidereals, BTW. This also means I've never used the 1e info before my 3e game was in full swing, I only bought it recently due to the opinions that it presents the setting better than 2e did!)
Second, the 3e setting is explicitly and implicitly reverting more towards a 1e aesthetic and does as much as possible to avoid 2e influence! That's coupled with solving some issues some of the particularly vocal fans have been complaining about for years (I guess I wasn't vocal enough).

QuoteI certainly don't recall any mention of this astrology difficulty in 2nd (I fully accept I could be wrong since that is 10 years and 1 baby+1 on the way ago and Exalted was never anywhere near a #1 system/setting for me).

I do remember it from 2e, though. (Also, glad for the baby and the baby on the way:)! Fuck Exalted - we can disagree about it all we want, but those are the important things in life!)

QuoteI think we can all understand the underlying point you are making -- that we can easily make it hard for the enemies to actually deal with a new group of Solar Exalts.

It's more like "the setting is written as if a malevolent will has released the Solars exactly when the Anti-Solar Defence would be at its weakest"...wait, did I say "as if"?
But yeah, for practical intents and purposes, that's it;).

QuoteHowever that is not at all what the books present in 2nd at the very least.  You very explicitly have to make up some ground rules and probably explain them to your table to make sure everyone is on the same page.  You certainly have to do a butt-ton more exposition in character for Exalted that you'd like ever have to do for just about any game I can think to make sure they understand how all of this works.  "No mister Dawn we can't just slap down Gozer the Gozerian and free those people because my Twilight Lore lets me know that he'd just disappear back to Heaven and lodge a complaint with the Bureaucracy which would bring attention to us so let's let the Eclipse claim to be a God unless one of us happens to know how to eat his soul."

I am reasonably sure that this is exactly what the books present in 2e, too.
As for ground rules, you need them in any good setting.

Quote from: Snowman0147;900478You know that is not what people expected when they bought the book.  When a person who is new to the game buys Exalted and/or Godbound they expect what is advertise.  You play a demigod of immense power and the capability to change the world.  In Godbound you do exactly that.  

In Exalted if you try doing that your gonna get problems because the setting isn't built like that.  You got to hide till your uber enough to expose yourself.  If people understood that they may not even bother.  It isn't what people expected and if the advertisements were more honest you would not get this issue.

Why? I mean, was I the only one who expected exactly what I got, due to the same advertisement?
I'm seriously wondering, here.

Also, you do change the world in Exalted 2e, and you did change it quite seriously with starting characters. What starting PCs had trouble achieving was making sure the changes last.

Quote from: Crüesader;900479And I've read it's even less like that, and almost generic fantasy nowadays.  The 'epic' scale of it is taken down.

Not. In. My. Experience.
Quick, show of hands! Exactly how many of the people passing judgement on Ex3 are actually playing it? AFAICT, I'm the only one so far.
Also, what do you all think of people that condemn D&D without having tried it;)?

Quote from: Snowman0147;900481Then why bother?

Because the statement is simply untrue;).

And again...maybe for you, Asen.

I for one, have a lot of similar experiences like the posters you are so long windedly writing against. Exalted was advertised to be about Demigods...tag lines in the line of "not like dnd, you get to be badass from the very first moment" etc etc . You were promised to play movers and shakers of the setting FROM THE FUCKING START.
And then you play it and....nothing, nada... if you play it by RAW, that is. That you, Asen, can twist and turn the setting and the rules as you see fit...i believe you in an instant (because you tell us that in many other threads here or on rpg.net how much you know systems and houserule them to suit your needs)...but that is not what every GM can or even wants to do.

So yeah, agreeing whole-heartedly with other posters here that Exalted never kept what it promised in RAW.
I absolutely agree that you can have that game, if you want to and if the GM plays along (or if you are the GM, if you are willing to change lots of stuff so that it plays like advertised by WW back in the day).

Oh and if it was not clear...i'm talking about "out of the gate with a new edition" aka if you play Solars. All those advertisements are mostly about the main splat. "Evolve your game!"...yeah, right! :rolleyes:

The infamous "Jon Chung Exalted," with its paranoia Combos and a minimum survival package that took up 8 of a Solar's initial ten Charms and required certain Attributes and Abilities at 5 each, was something Jon Chung himself detested. But it was a direct consequence of the rules as written and the setting as presented. Using both, there were literally no other build options that would allow a Solar to live long enough to become personally powerful enough to even attempt to accumulate political or economic power.

I am sick of this.  AsenRG you need to hear this.  Using your private game is a SHITTY MEASURING STICK.  It always leads to this shit.

A: "Well in my game Ma Machine II was easy to defeat."

B: "Well in my game Ma Machine II did a total party kill."

C: "Well in my game we made deals with Ma Machine II and became cyborgs."

This is before we touch upon GMs who each one is unique.  Some are strict, others hand waving, and so on.

This also doesn't touch on the players which follow the reasoning as the GMs.

Point is what happens at your game has no creditably because too many factors question that creditably.  All your doing by bringing your game up is saying you have no real argument to make.  Your telling people to ignore you.

Now before you get mad please understand.  What happen in your game would make a great story to tell in the forum.  All I am saying is that your personal game is a poor argument.  That goes for me as well.  What goes on in my game would be a shit argument as well.