Quote from: AsenRG;900121What social experiment? The way I see it, Exalted's setting hasn't changed all that much, and the parts we didn't like have been reverted back to their 2e or even 1e state:D!

When I read such posts, I wonder whether you're still playing the same game;).

Because it was created in a vacuum by SJWs who pandered to a shrill choir of other SJWs. It was touted to be built from the ground up, but wasn't and it's selling points were its name and a shitty trans sig. Anyone who dared call OPP out on their bullshit in any venue OPP had a modicum of control over, were silenced at worst and ignored at best. The only people who had a voice were the kneeling, open-mouthed sheep who had the same views as they did.

The game is a bloated mess of rules upon rules created to appease people who don't even play RPGs and the only reason it's gotten any traction is heritage and a desperation to see a hopeful idea realized. This, "It's got some good stuff in there" defense is weak; one good head of lettuce in a field of rotting mulch does not a harvest make.

Does it work for you? It seems so. You make it fun and good for you. However, give it time. 2nd Ed was a hands-free Fleshlight with neverending lube when it was first released but it didn't take long for the cracks to show. Ex3 started with cracks and they've been filling them in with the tears of SJWs ever since the leak.

Quote from: Michael Gray;900174And yet, if we were playing D&D and I put your first level fighter in a world with Undead McLicherson, 20th level wizardman extarordinaire....you wouldn't bat an eye. You'd go gain enough power to beat him or leave him alone or whatever; but you wouldn't say "This is fucking stupid, I can never beat him he's so powerful and has too much infrastructure. And even if I do then the Grandmother of Assassins will punch my soul out in the middle of a BJ."

Your point nicely illustrates the benefits of D&D's (and other games') zero-to-hero structure versus Exalted's (and other games') starting out as a superhero.

Managing archvillains in any game is tricky business. You want players to bridge the power gap within a time frame that allows for a villain's plans to progress (setting up some urgency) without fully coming to fruition (or it would be all in vain), while in the meantime PCs work their way through the enemy hierarchy and/or plans-within-plans.

I can't really vouch for how this would work with Ma-Ha-Suchi or the Mask of Winters ir any other Exalted antagonist as I am only passingly familiar with Exalted canon. But in my experience, to keep a campaign-long interest in an antagonist requires these three things: (1) a villainous goal that gets players and their characters invested in stopping them; (2) a structure of sprawling plans and an army of henchmen/women/robots/whatever that can be engaged at different junctures of a campaign; (3) strictly optionally, a power gap that can be sufficiently bridged (if and only if you want a climactic final confrontation with the prime mover of evil. Classic adventures from Dragonlance to Masks of Nyarlathotep do fine without those!)

The thing with Exalted is that, by dint of being "epic" and "super", it can't always get away with #3 being optional. No one expects Caramon to punch Takhisis in the face, or your neurasthenic New England professor to go Gustaf Johansen on Nyarlathotep's ass. I suppose most Solar OCs with a lick of good sense might conform to never beating a Neverborn, but not being able to eventually personally put an end to Ma-Ha-Suchi's plans can be a bummer (if that is indeed the case).

Quote from: Whitewings;900181In  a typical D&D game, Undead McLicherson doesn't want the PCs dead. Personally. As individuals. In Exalted, he does want dead. Personally. As an individual. He will throw whatever resources he can at you, and he has a lot of resources that you don't and can't have simply because he's actively and aggressively leveraging his own resources to ensure you accomplish nothing before you die. And it's not just him and his massive support organization: you've got the huge, ancient dragon over there, and over there you've the epic level evil priests, and down in the Lower Planes you have some arch-devils.

In a typical Exalted game Ma-Ha-Suchi does not want the PCs dead. He likely doesn't know who the PCs are. Yeah, if they come in as starting characters and try to act like big swinging dicks to the Elder God Beast that rules an entire nation of goat-dudes? They will probably be fucked. That's not a problem with the setting or the game. That's a problem with the player's being idiots and getting kacked for it. And yes starting Exalts are supposed to be more powerful than mortals, but you still have to be smart about your abilities.

About the only people you can legitimately say want to kill your guy from the get go are some Elder Sidereals. And they won't know where you are and mostly work through lackeys because they're too busy being Masters of the World to go do their actual job. Like literally Chejop Kejak spends most of his time with the religious head of the Immaculate Order or in Heaven. He has goons to kill you. That's how he rolls.

Quote from: The Butcher;900191Your point nicely illustrates the benefits of D&D's (and other games') zero-to-hero structure versus Exalted's (and other games') starting out as a superhero.

Managing archvillains in any game is tricky business. You want players to bridge the power gap within a time frame that allows for a villain's plans to progress (setting up some urgency) without fully coming to fruition (or it would be all in vain), while in the meantime PCs work their way through the enemy hierarchy and/or plans-within-plans.

I can't really vouch for how this would work with Ma-Ha-Suchi or the Mask of Winters ir any other Exalted antagonist as I am only passingly familiar with Exalted canon. But in my experience, to keep a campaign-long interest in an antagonist requires these three things: (1) a villainous goal that gets players and their characters invested in stopping them; (2) a structure of sprawling plans and an army of henchmen/women/robots/whatever that can be engaged at different junctures of a campaign; (3) strictly optionally, a power gap that can be sufficiently bridged (if and only if you want a climactic final confrontation with the prime mover of evil. Classic adventures from Dragonlance to Masks of Nyarlathotep do fine without those!)

The thing with Exalted is that, by dint of being "epic" and "super", it can't always get away with #3 being optional. No one expects Caramon to punch Takhisis in the face, or your neurasthenic New England professor to go Gustaf Johansen on Nyarlathotep's ass. I suppose most Solar OCs with a lick of good sense might conform to never beating a Neverborn, but not being able to eventually personally put an end to Ma-Ha-Suchi's plans can be a bummer (if that is indeed the case).

It just seemed like a weird hill to die on for me. Most RPGs have SOME kind of powerful antagonist that outclasses you in the beginning. It's not a problem there and it's not a problem in Exalted. The problem I've always found is that enemies I think will steamroll my players just get plowed under due to good planning and weight of numbers.

Ma-ha-Suchi might not know who the PCs are but he will know of what the PCs are. In Exalted reputedly they're not just some other schlub noobie Adventurer. They're Exalted, Solar Exalted, the legendary lords and god kings from a by gone age. They are a big deal not Joe Fighter. Suchi most definitely be highly interested in them if they pop on his radar while the hypothetical Lichy McLichface likely won't give a damn about Joe the Fighter and Jane the mage unless they come knocking on his door, perhaps not even then. MHS is pretty pissed at Solars and concerned about their return and that they can fuck up his plans while someone drawn to them.

And he's not the only elder that feels that way. Deathlords are presented know full well what Solars and actively seek them out to convert or destroy The Immaculate Order, the state religion of the largest empire in the world considers it their holy duty to eliminate then and even in their currently "weakened" state can and will send small armies to back the specially trained hit squads of Terrestrials (which particularly in 3rd aren't significantly less potent than the PC and can outnumber them 2-3 times to one). There is an entire faction Sidereals that have a vested interest in killing Solars, some of them are elders but some of them are just far older and more experienced than the PCs and can call on the resources of Heaven. including having access to charms and abilities that will guide them to you. Its what they do for the Wyld Hunt: point out Solar anathema. And if the Hunt can't handle them they send in "Grandmother of Assassins" (which is actually a pretty fitting name for the setting).

 Its possible to avoid them but it means laying very low and hiding your abilities as much as possible and game more like a vampire in WoD than an "epic hero". Then there are various gods and entities that dot every important region that also know what the solars are and most of them would rather not see them return. There is allot more of the setting aimed at Solar PCs from the jump than in most D and D games I've been in and the game presents an imperative in tone and mood to "do" things not just hide out somewhere in the middle of nowhere (where they could still find you but chances are less). Hell, the fiction is full of examples of power beings seeking Solars out rather than the Solar "swinging their dicks" and picking fights they knew they couldn't win, the story of Dace aside. And its not just elders they're just the most graphic illustration of the issue because they're so swollen beyond PC levels its abundantly clear they're untouchable but any more experienced opponents can fit the bill especially with earlier edition particularly lethal combat where you might be dead before you know you're losing, they're almost everywhere and most of them have a grudge against you. Some of the personally (because you a massive dick in your last life).  

The problem isn't that powerful beings exist in the setting is that most of are so powerful and informed that if they exert any effort at all they can wipe the PCs out and most of them having  vested, even personal interest in doing so. And adapting to that create a different mood from what on the box: laying low, fleeing contact and begging more powerful beings for protection until "some day" you'll be a big boy matter (that might be century later in a world that on the brink not going out, forging legends and being an epic hero right off the bat like its claimed.  The most common explanation for why you're not plowed under "They have better things to do" just drives home the disconnect between hype, the fluff and the reality. Hell, you're not that much tougher than mortals or more powerful outside of your area of focus where likely perform within mortal range of ability and mortals can and do pose a threat and using the power to excel draws more attention to you. Its been an issue in the game since late 1st edition. The "Elder problem" isn't only about Elders.

Aberrant had the same issues (you're a god but there's all these more powerful gods) but at least the PCs weren't starting off inimical to so many of them (and the general population. Nova weren't anathema).

Quote from: Warboss Squee;900127The thing is, it's always been that way.  Want to knock off Ma-Ha-Suchi and put an end to his barbarous rape camps and plans to destroy civilization?  You can't.  He's an Essence 4-5 Lunar with all the bells and whistles that implies.  Unless the GM nerfs the crap out of him, he's going to destroy the average Circle, and you certainly aren't going to get any Lunar allies to help, since they're complicit in his madness.

Most of the named antagonists are like that.  Mostly because they're centuries old, and have not just personal power but social and infrastructure that you simply can't amass.  The game simply isn't about shacking up the setting and more about dealing with little problems and making sure you don't draw to much attention less your betters fuck you up.

Well, yes.  But that's been a flaw with ALL WW games.  It's just that WW had been promising to fix this for Exalted, the problem is, it didn't in any edition, but it got it's players to BELIEVE.  Which is why if you do play Exalted, it's assumed you're going to hand wave most of the inconsistencies away.

Quote from: Whitewings;900181In  a typical D&D game, Undead McLicherson doesn't want the PCs dead. Personally. As individuals. In Exalted, he does want dead. Personally. As an individual. He will throw whatever resources he can at you, and he has a lot of resources that you don't and can't have simply because he's actively and aggressively leveraging his own resources to ensure you accomplish nothing before you die. And it's not just him and his massive support organization: you've got the huge, ancient dragon over there, and over there you've the epic level evil priests, and down in the Lower Planes you have some arch-devils.

B.S.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;900184Because it was created in a vacuum by SJWs who pandered to a shrill choir of other SJWs. It was touted to be built from the ground up, but wasn't and it's selling points were its name and a shitty trans sig. Anyone who dared call OPP out on their bullshit in any venue OPP had a modicum of control over, were silenced at worst and ignored at best. The only people who had a voice were the kneeling, open-mouthed sheep who had the same views as they did.

So? I don't agree that often with Pundit's ideology. Doesn't mean Lords of Olympus sucks.

QuoteThe game is a bloated mess of rules upon rules created to appease people who don't even play RPGs and the only reason it's gotten any traction is heritage and a desperation to see a hopeful idea realized. This, "It's got some good stuff in there" defense is weak; one good head of lettuce in a field of rotting mulch does not a harvest make.

Except, of course, it's far from one good head of lettuce. It's more like one bad head of lettuce.

QuoteDoes it work for you? It seems so. You make it fun and good for you.

Exactly.

QuoteHowever, give it time. 2nd Ed was a hands-free Fleshlight with neverending lube when it was first released but it didn't take long for the cracks to show.

Your mechanical competence leaves a lot to be desired if you think that everything that made Ex2 a problem to run wasn't there from the corebook;).

QuoteEx3 started with cracks and they've been filling them in with the tears of SJWs ever since the leak.

So, the wider the cracks, the better:D?

Quote from: The Butcher;900191Your point nicely illustrates the benefits of D&D's (and other games') zero-to-hero structure versus Exalted's (and other games') starting out as a superhero.

Managing archvillains in any game is tricky business. You want players to bridge the power gap within a time frame that allows for a villain's plans to progress (setting up some urgency) without fully coming to fruition (or it would be all in vain), while in the meantime PCs work their way through the enemy hierarchy and/or plans-within-plans.

I can't really vouch for how this would work with Ma-Ha-Suchi or the Mask of Winters ir any other Exalted antagonist as I am only passingly familiar with Exalted canon. But in my experience, to keep a campaign-long interest in an antagonist requires these three things: (1) a villainous goal that gets players and their characters invested in stopping them; (2) a structure of sprawling plans and an army of henchmen/women/robots/whatever that can be engaged at different junctures of a campaign; (3) strictly optionally, a power gap that can be sufficiently bridged (if and only if you want a climactic final confrontation with the prime mover of evil. Classic adventures from Dragonlance to Masks of Nyarlathotep do fine without those!)

The thing with Exalted is that, by dint of being "epic" and "super", it can't always get away with #3 being optional. No one expects Caramon to punch Takhisis in the face, or your neurasthenic New England professor to go Gustaf Johansen on Nyarlathotep's ass. I suppose most Solar OCs with a lick of good sense might conform to never beating a Neverborn, but not being able to eventually personally put an end to Ma-Ha-Suchi's plans can be a bummer (if that is indeed the case).

Thing is, that's a rather good analysis of the standard D&D-inspired* structure. But it's not the case that you can never put an end to Ma-Ha-Suchi's plans. Been there, seen it.

*I'd argue it wasn't there from the start, since archvillains seems to be a later invention:p.

Quote from: Michael Gray;900215In a typical Exalted game Ma-Ha-Suchi does not want the PCs dead. He likely doesn't know who the PCs are. Yeah, if they come in as starting characters and try to act like big swinging dicks to the Elder God Beast that rules an entire nation of goat-dudes? They will probably be fucked. That's not a problem with the setting or the game. That's a problem with the player's being idiots and getting kacked for it. And yes starting Exalts are supposed to be more powerful than mortals, but you still have to be smart about your abilities.

Precisely.

QuoteAbout the only people you can legitimately say want to kill your guy from the get go are some Elder Sidereals. And they won't know where you are and mostly work through lackeys because they're too busy being Masters of the World to go do their actual job. Like literally Chejop Kejak spends most of his time with the religious head of the Immaculate Order or in Heaven. He has goons to kill you. That's how he rolls.

The above is confirmed in every corebook of the system from 1e to 3e included.

Quote from: Nexus;900240Ma-ha-Suchi might not know who the PCs are but he will know of what the PCs are. In Exalted reputedly they're not just some other schlub noobie Adventurer. They're Exalted, Solar Exalted, the legendary lords and god kings from a by gone age. They are a big deal not Joe Fighter. Suchi most definitely be highly interested in them if they pop on his radar while the hypothetical Lichy McLichface likely won't give a damn about Joe the Fighter and Jane the mage unless they come knocking on his door, perhaps not even then. MHS is pretty pissed at Solars and concerned about their return and that they can fuck up his plans while someone drawn to them.

And they don't have to fight him to the death. If it was a lich, would you feel weird that 1st level adventurers have to run?

QuoteDeathlords are presented know full well what Solars and actively seek them out to convert or destroy

They have fucking empires in the Underworld, Abyssals to abuse and control, and are competing among themselves.

QuoteThe Immaculate Order, the state religion of the largest empire in the world considers it their holy duty to eliminate then and even in their currently "weakened" state can and will send small armies to back the specially trained hit squads of Terrestrials (which particularly in 3rd aren't significantly less potent than the PC and can outnumber them 2-3 times to one).

The so called Wyld Hunt is called out in every Exalted Corebook since 1e where it says that it is underfunded, and the Sidereals are busy doing other things so it lacks the ability to find them via astrological means, and the Terrestrials are pulling every single soldier even from the satrapies...

QuoteThere is an entire faction Sidereals that have a vested interest in killing Solars,

Which means there's a fraction of Sidereals, i.e. much less than 100, vs. 150 Solars. And they have to deal with another 150 Solaroids, and Deathlords, and rogue demons, and mad wizards, and yozi cultists, and most importantly of all, they have to ensure their longest-lasting project, i.e. The Realm and the Immaculate Faith, survive with as little damage as possible.
Yeah, sure, I feel really threatened...no wait, I don't:D!

Quoteincluding having access to charms and abilities that will guide them to you. Its what they do for the Wyld Hunt: point out Solar anathema.

Addressed explicitly above.

QuoteAnd if the Hunt can't handle them they send in "Grandmother of Assassins" (which is actually a pretty fitting name for the setting).

Which then fails and becomes an asset for the Solars in question.

QuoteIts possible to avoid them but it means laying very low and hiding your abilities as much as possible and game more like a vampire in WoD than an "epic hero".

You mean, like Achilles before the start of the Iliad?

QuoteThen there are various gods and entities that dot every important region that also know what the solars are and most of them would rather not see them return.

On the contrary, they know that the Solars are the righteous rulers of Creation.

QuoteHell, the fiction is full of examples of power beings seeking Solars out rather than the Solar "swinging their dicks" and picking fights they knew they couldn't win, the story of Dace aside.

The fiction is also full of examples about what said beings do instead of this. Why do you ignore them and assume that looking out for Solars isn't the exception, if it makes your game worse?

QuoteAnd its not just elders they're just the most graphic illustration of the issue because they're so swollen beyond PC levels its abundantly clear they're untouchable

Bwahahaha, I'm glad my players never knew that:D! Because they've beaten the Lover Clad In A Raiment Of Tears in social combat, various other Deathlords and Elders in physical combat, and so on.
I was using the official stats, BTW. I think they even defeated a wargod where I got lazy enough and used the stats of Ahlat instead, removing a point of Essence.

Quotebut any more experienced opponents can fit the bill especially with earlier edition particularly lethal combat where you might be dead before you know you're losing,

Quotethey're almost everywhere

and most of them have a grudge against you.

There are 700 Celestials and circa 50 000 DBs or so in 5 huge Directions. No, they're not "everywhere", unless you want them to be, and if you avoid the centers of power until you get more experienced, you can easily avoid meeting even a single one.
And if you can't deal with Fair Folk and goddamn 1st level demons, you're a failure as an Exalted anyway and should give the Exaltation to someone more suitable for the task;).

QuoteThe problem isn't that powerful beings exist in the setting is that most of are so powerful and informed that if they exert any effort at all they can wipe the PCs out

The problem is that you're mixing the above, which is your fanon, with the canon. Which explicitly says they lack resources.

QuoteAnd adapting to that create a different mood from what on the box: laying low, fleeing contact and begging more powerful beings for protection

Amazingly, that's how a few well-known stories begin:
The story of Musashi Miamoto, who starts as part of a defeated army.
The story of frigging Hercules, who has to run from the wrath of his "godstepmother", and serve a non-heroic mortal while Hercules becomes powerful enough to help the gods against the Titans.
The story of the frigging Monkey King, who makes a big ruckus, and in punishment is given a task...
If your players want something more powerful than that, my advice would be to cut down on watching the latest seasons of frigging DBZ:D!

Quote"They have better things to do" just drives home the disconnect between hype, the fluff and the reality.

"They have better things to do" is just the explanation for why the Solars-ganking system which worked like a Swiss clock until then, suddenly allows PCs to thrive and prosper;).

Quote from: Michael Gray;900215In a typical Exalted game Ma-Ha-Suchi does not want the PCs dead. He likely doesn't know who the PCs are. Yeah, if they come in as starting characters and try to act like big swinging dicks to the Elder God Beast that rules an entire nation of goat-dudes? They will probably be fucked. That's not a problem with the setting or the game. That's a problem with the player's being idiots and getting kacked for it. And yes starting Exalts are supposed to be more powerful than mortals, but you still have to be smart about your abilities.

Quote from: Nexus;900240Ma-ha-Suchi might not know who the PCs are but he will know of what the PCs are. In Exalted reputedly they're not just some other schlub noobie Adventurer. They're Exalted, Solar Exalted, the legendary lords and god kings from a by gone age. They are a big deal not Joe Fighter. Suchi most definitely be highly interested in them if they pop on his radar while the hypothetical Lichy McLichface likely won't give a damn about Joe the Fighter and Jane the mage unless they come knocking on his door, perhaps not even then. MHS is pretty pissed at Solars and concerned about their return and that they can fuck up his plans while someone drawn to them.

Well, it seems some GM discretion goes a long way here. You don't want the badass [strike]broo[/strike] proprietary White Wolf rape goatman king to come down from his throne and kick your starting PCs' asses.

Even if he is aware of the Exalt PCs, he may ignore them as long as they don't interfere with his plans.

When/if they do, he may still dispatch followers and lieutenants to thwart, intimidate and capture them. They may even be content to trash the PCs' domain, burning crops, kidnapping people for their camps and other assorted non-murdering malfeasance, making PCs' lives miserable without touching a hair on their heads.

If PCs are foolhardy enough to go out and face down a foe beyond their league, well, sucks to be them. But even then he may be content to humiliate them, amd semd them packing with their tails between their legs, and demand human tribute from them. Lots of way to milk this for several sessions' worth of PC misery (and hopefully magnificent long-term revenge plans).

Quote from: AsenRG;900261Thing is, that's a rather good analysis of the standard D&D-inspired* structure. But it's not the case that you can never put an end to Ma-Ha-Suchi's plans. Been there, seen it.

If Ma-Ha-Suchi is a defeatable enemy, the "D&D-inspired structure" I mentioned fully applies. Exalted does allow for PCs to "level up" and bridge a power gap.

If he's not, well, it still applies. To mantain the Dragonlance analogy (God, I feel filthy) he's Takhisis, instead of being some particularly badass Dragonlord.

Quote from: AsenRG;900261*I'd argue it wasn't there from the start, since archvillains seems to be a later invention:p.

Dave Arneson's Blackmoor campaign had an archvillain, the Egg of Coot. And of course, before that, he had two antagonistic groups of "good guy" PCs and "bad guy" PCs. But your definition of "archvillain" may vary.

You'd also have to play them stupid for them to allow a nest of solars to reach their eventual heights of power. Best to kill them now while they're young and weak then let them build back to what they once were (even its going to take centuries. Exalts live thousands of years). Heck, Suchi and most of these guys don't have to step in personally to do it. Many of their lieutenants and hench things can squash newbies solars. For most of these guys it would be essentially trivial effort to eliminate or at least reset a potentially large problem down the line. For that matter, there's an entire powerful virtually Creation spanning organization you can rat them out to to your dirty work for them. Suchi and his ilk are supposed to be some of the canniest most intelligent beings in the setting. A few of them might be the arrogant but all of them?

Its a bit like if the BBEG of some fantasy series knew from the beginning about the little nobody adventurers that were going to gank in a few decades (or a century or more) and has plenty of resources to destroy them easily.

 In spite of all the internet hype I've never seen besting Solars be that hard in any play I've participated in. They biggest thing they have going in reincarnation. They keep popping back up but its a reset button. Not much since in letting the moles get bigger and meaner and they'll be others whacking them too. And not just "elders" but almost anyone of substance in the setting has a huge step forward on PCs and a reason to see them crushed and quickly. You can handwave that and assume they always send out appropriately scaled opposition but that flies into while more realistic schtick Exalted has going. Hell, I had to softball groups for years trying to run the game. GMing can fix allot of issues but that doesn't mean they are not there.

And if you're "supposed" to bunker down, hide your abilities and live in fear until that eventual day you can make a difference that's a viable playstyle but that doesn't seem to be how the game has been billed and hyped for the past 10 yrs.

I think this thread illustrate some of the problems players have with the game and setting.

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?782337-Exalted-Tastes-and-Superheroes-(tangent-from-Sell-me-Exalted-3e)

Even in previous editions, Lunars were always supposed to be the setting equivalent of Garou: Billy badass.   Their role in the structure was to be mated to a given Solar and act as their bodyguard.  So consider how powerful you'd have to be to be a Solar's bodyguard.
Likewise Ma Ha Suchi being that much more ridiculous makes sense.  Some Lunars have survived in one incarnation since the previous Age and the PCs haven't.  If we think of elder Lunars and Sidereals as "20th level characters" it makes sense that PCs could bridge the gap, although given the level of intrigue in the setting you would have to figure out how to compete on that level and build a power base just to survive.  Hopefully a given GM would build his campaign on that premise and not just Monster of the Week.

So it doesn't disturb me that some people are (now) more powerful than Solars.  It disturbs me that the threats to a beginning Solar seem to have been ramped up from where they were in previous editions, such that, say, Dragon-Bloods are more at parity.  But then the real contradiction is that in keeping with the epic stories, Exalted books have always- always, always- emphasized that all people in Creation are NOT created equal, and that by dint of reincarnation or some luck, your character who could have been peasant or local king is brought to the level of the greats, potentially even better than the Empress' nobility.  This doesn't jibe with modern people's expectations of humanist equality.  It didn't in the previous editions and it sure as hell doesn't to the PC crowd that has eaten RPG.net and the WW/OP community.  So you have something pretty close to the cartoon stereotype of giving everybody a trophy so that everybody gets to be "special" and nobody feels left out.

JG

So what you're saying James, is that although WW touted that the Solars were the top of the food chain, they actually weren't because they needed Shapeshifting Bodyguards to protect them?  So White Wolf lied to it's players, again, straight from the gate.

Good to know.

Quote from: James Gillen;900316Even in previous editions, Lunars were always supposed to be the setting equivalent of Garou: Billy badass.   Their role in the structure was to be mated to a given Solar and act as their bodyguard.  So consider how powerful you'd have to be to be a Solar's bodyguard.

The Lunars were consorts and partners of the Solar Exalted. Some served as bodyguards for their less combat focused mates, others were spies, assassins, lieutenants, lovers, etc. Apparently slaves was added in 3rd implying Desus and Lilith's warped relationship is going to be treated more as the norm.

And oh the endless bitching about the Lunar Bond mechanics...

QuoteLikewise Ma Ha Suchi being that much more ridiculous makes sense.  Some Lunars have survived in one incarnation since the previous Age and the PCs haven't.  If we think of elder Lunars and Sidereals as "20th level characters" it makes sense that PCs could bridge the gap, although given the level of intrigue in the setting you would have to figure out how to compete on that level and build a power base just to survive.  Hopefully a given GM would build his campaign on that premise and not just Monster of the Week.

So it doesn't disturb me that some people are (now) more powerful than Solars.

I agree. Its not the mere existence of powerful beings that's (I hate this word) problematic. Its the set up which includes so many of them and put Solar PCs almost immediately in their sights. It might have been better if the Solars were long forgotten after being locked away for so long but with so many immortal and long lived being in the setting (some of which are trying to keeo them enshrined as "anathema") that doesn't really work in Setting as written. The return of the Solars is trumpted as Big Deal that everyone who's anyone is aware of and concerned about.

QuoteIt disturbs me that the threats to a beginning Solar seem to have been ramped up from where they were in previous editions, such that, say, Dragon-Bloods are more at parity.  But then the real contradiction is that in keeping with the epic stories, Exalted books have always- always, always- emphasized that all people in Creation are NOT created equal, and that by dint of reincarnation or some luck, your character who could have been peasant or local king is brought to the level of the greats, potentially even better than the Empress' nobility.  This doesn't jibe with modern people's expectations of humanist equality.  It didn't in the previous editions and it sure as hell doesn't to the PC crowd that has eaten RPG.net and the WW/OP community.  So you have something pretty close to the cartoon stereotype of giving everybody a trophy so that everybody gets to be "special" and nobody feels left out.

I definitely agree with you. It causes a little dissonance to see arguments about classical period ethics and ideas of morality and heroism in one breath and then calls for equality and modern "social justice" to be in forefront in the next. The push for some kind of equality has been going on for some time particularly for the Dragonblooded though it skews the setting to some degree. If DB are largely equivalent to Celestials/Solars, many times more numerous and self replicating it changes the dynamic.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;900339So what you're saying James, is that although WW touted that the Solars were the top of the food chain, they actually weren't because they needed Shapeshifting Bodyguards to protect them?  So White Wolf lied to it's players, again, straight from the gate.

Good to know.

There's been discussions about how its a bad idea to look at the different types of Exalts as "character classes" meant to fulfill certain niches in a "party". The intention wasn't for their to be a "fighty" Exalted and a "stealthy" type, etc. They'd have their strength and weaknesses but wouldn't be flat out lacking in a single broad area. Basically, the different splats weren't initially meant for cross group play. But that's become the popular mode and its fed the push for parity among the different types.

Quote from: James Gillen;900316So you have something pretty close to the cartoon stereotype of giving everybody a trophy so that everybody gets to be "special" and nobody feels left out.

JG

What was crazy is I remember the 2e meltdowns people would have whenever any Exalt type could hand a Solar's ass to them.  Mentioning that this was possible would trigger emotional outbursts to the magnitude you've never seen.  

I mean, you should have seen people absolutely lose it when Alchemical Exalts could be demonstrably as effective as some folks' Lunars and Solars.  I really did love my Armored Cyborg Chainsaw-Karate Batman Inquisitor: Electric Boogaloo character.