Quote from: Nexus;900111It really feels like the tone of the game has slowly shifted from making the players feel like their characters are powerful moves and shakers that kick over apple carts and really make a different to making them feel afraid and essentially roping off section of the setting as "No Go" and "Respect their Athoritah!; zones dressed up as "making the setting matter".

Or you could just interpret this as "you've been up for a little while and they've been up for possibly years or centuries and, like lots of things that are older/more experienced than you, they're difficult to handle."

Seriously guys, can we stop making the pissiest possible interpretations of everything they say? Let's dial back the hyperbole.

He's not entirely wrong, though. As others have pointed out, many of the stats for the given antagonists, when you reverse engineer the dice pools, are frankly ridiculous. Elite troops all have Dexterity 5, Melee 4, or Dexterity 4, Melee 5. Rankings like that are the stuff of legends. A rating of 3 is well above average. For Abilities, it's the ranking of an elite or a veteran, and for Attributes it's outstanding. 4 is extraordinary even compared to people notable for the Attribute or Ability in question, and 5 is the stuff of legend.

Quote from: Jetstream;900112Or you could just interpret this as "you've been up for a little while and they've been up for possibly years or centuries and, like lots of things that are older/more experienced than you, they're difficult to handle."

Seriously guys, can we stop making the pissiest possible interpretations of everything they say? Let's dial back the hyperbole.

No, because the game's really no longer about you playing a world-shaking bad-ass as much as it's about existing in OOP's SJW social experiment the way they want you to.

Quote from: Nexus;900111It really feels like the tone of the game has slowly shifted from making the players feel like their characters are powerful moves and shakers that kick over apple carts and really make a different to making them feel afraid and essentially roping off section of the setting as "No Go" and "Respect their Athoritah!; zones dressed up as "making the setting matter".

Oh come now.  Everyone knows you urinate on the apple cart.  If you just kick it over, the dirty peasants will eat.

Quote from: Nexus;900111It really feels like the tone of the game has slowly shifted from making the players feel like their characters are powerful moves and shakers that kick over apple carts and really make a different to making them feel afraid and essentially roping off section of the setting as "No Go" and "Respect their Athoritah!; zones dressed up as "making the setting matter".

Not my impression. The recent fight against Lunars that we had really didn't end in favour of the Lunars:).
Of course, everyone that participated in it would probably have issues with the Silver Pack now, but isn't that par for the course in Exalted of all games;)?

Quote from: Jetstream;900112Or you could just interpret this as "you've been up for a little while and they've been up for possibly years or centuries and, like lots of things that are older/more experienced than you, they're difficult to handle."

Seriously guys, can we stop making the pissiest possible interpretations of everything they say? Let's dial back the hyperbole.

Yes on both accounts.

Quote from: Whitewings;900113He's not entirely wrong, though. As others have pointed out, many of the stats for the given antagonists, when you reverse engineer the dice pools, are frankly ridiculous. Elite troops all have Dexterity 5, Melee 4, or Dexterity 4, Melee 5. Rankings like that are the stuff of legends. A rating of 3 is well above average. For Abilities, it's the ranking of an elite or a veteran, and for Attributes it's outstanding. 4 is extraordinary even compared to people notable for the Attribute or Ability in question, and 5 is the stuff of legend.

Well, people were complaining about mortals not being a threat for ages, so they just got what they wanted, I guess:p.
I admit that the reason I don't have an issue with that just might be that I've never had a fight against elite troops in Exalted 3e, purely for IC reasons:D.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;900116No, because the game's really no longer about you playing a world-shaking bad-ass as much as it's about existing in OOP's SJW social experiment the way they want you to.

What social experiment? The way I see it, Exalted's setting hasn't changed all that much, and the parts we didn't like have been reverted back to their 2e or even 1e state:D!

When I read such posts, I wonder whether you're still playing the same game;).

Quote from: Whitewings;900113He's not entirely wrong, though. As others have pointed out, many of the stats for the given antagonists, when you reverse engineer the dice pools, are frankly ridiculous. Elite troops all have Dexterity 5, Melee 4, or Dexterity 4, Melee 5. Rankings like that are the stuff of legends. A rating of 3 is well above average. For Abilities, it's the ranking of an elite or a veteran, and for Attributes it's outstanding. 4 is extraordinary even compared to people notable for the Attribute or Ability in question, and 5 is the stuff of legend.

This is a long-standing White Wolf issue. Anyone remember the stats for cops in nWoD's Antagonists section? Apparently every plod walking a beat is an uberman far more capable than any starting character could be.

Quote from: Nexus;900111It really feels like the tone of the game has slowly shifted from making the players feel like their characters are powerful moves and shakers that kick over apple carts and really make a different to making them feel afraid and essentially roping off section of the setting as "No Go" and "Respect their Athoritah!; zones dressed up as "making the setting matter".

The thing is, it's always been that way.  Want to knock off Ma-Ha-Suchi and put an end to his barbarous rape camps and plans to destroy civilization?  You can't.  He's an Essence 4-5 Lunar with all the bells and whistles that implies.  Unless the GM nerfs the crap out of him, he's going to destroy the average Circle, and you certainly aren't going to get any Lunar allies to help, since they're complicit in his madness.

Most of the named antagonists are like that.  Mostly because they're centuries old, and have not just personal power but social and infrastructure that you simply can't amass.  The game simply isn't about shacking up the setting and more about dealing with little problems and making sure you don't draw to much attention less your betters fuck you up.

Quote from: Kiero;900126This is a long-standing White Wolf issue. Anyone remember the stats for cops in nWoD's Antagonists section? Apparently every plod walking a beat is an uberman far more capable than any starting character could be.

It was mentioned on TBP that nWoD assumes the starting PCs to be teenagers. Beatcops do have more experience fighting than normal teens, that's for sure...
Me? I think that's simply due to the low granularity inherent in the Stortellering system;). They need someone "better than average brawlers" (because yes, beat cops do arrest those), but this ends up with the cop becoming overrated against other opponents.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;900127The thing is, it's always been that way.  Want to knock off Ma-Ha-Suchi and put an end to his barbarous rape camps and plans to destroy civilization?  You can't.  He's an Essence 4-5 Lunar with all the bells and whistles that implies.  Unless the GM nerfs the crap out of him, he's going to destroy the average Circle, and you certainly aren't going to get any Lunar allies to help, since they're complicit in his madness.

OK, now I know you're playing a different game from me:D!

QuoteMost of the named antagonists are like that.  Mostly because they're centuries old, and have not just personal power but social and infrastructure that you simply can't amass.  The game simply isn't about shacking up the setting and more about dealing with little problems and making sure you don't draw to much attention less your betters fuck you up.

Yes, totally different games in a similarly-named setting. BTW, what system are you using:p?
I'm asking, because under the current system, or under 2e, it was quite possible to deal with Ma-Ha-Suchi, IME;).

Quote from: AsenRG;900144It was mentioned on TBP that nWoD assumes the starting PCs to be teenagers.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]90[/ATTACH]

All the more reason to avoid that abomination of a wrist-slicer game like it's made of Patchouli and barbed AIDs dick.

QuoteOr you could just interpret this as "you've been up for a little while and they've been up for possibly years or centuries and, like lots of things that are older/more experienced than you, they're difficult to handle."

Seriously guys, can we stop making the pissiest possible interpretations of everything they say? Let's dial back the hyperbole.

Its not simply what was said about Lunars. The continual stat inflation and power creep across the development of the game, the focus on more making antagonist setting elements more power, more invasive and more aggressive (including ramping up the inherent acrimony between different groups). And the implementation of changes to seemingly level the playing field so the PCs more numerous foes are almost as powerful and also better equipped, better backed and can find you more easily. It's not just what's happened in 3rd edition but the arc of the game and another thing it shares with most other spiritual White Wolf games. The PCs are supposed to be at the bottom and either on the run and working for their "betters" and not doing annoying things like actually changing the setting. Aberrant being one of the worst offenders in that regard ("What would do with the power of god? Watch the other more powerful gods story play out apparently) or the world of darkness iteration where a beat cop could tangle with a starting vamprire mehanically and come out on top.

What I quoted was just the latest brick on the pile not the first clue.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;900127The thing is, it's always been that way.  Want to knock off Ma-Ha-Suchi and put an end to his barbarous rape camps and plans to destroy civilization?  You can't.  He's an Essence 4-5 Lunar with all the bells and whistles that implies.  Unless the GM nerfs the crap out of him, he's going to destroy the average Circle, and you certainly aren't going to get any Lunar allies to help, since they're complicit in his madness.

Of course, like I mentioned earlier none of this shit is new, perhaps a bit more refined but its all from the classic playbook. Lowering the general power level and making the setting much bigger along with upping the number of Exalted (effectively meaning "PC types") contributes to this as well.

QuoteMost of the named antagonists are like that.  Mostly because they're centuries old, and have not just personal power but social and infrastructure that you simply can't amass.  The game simply isn't about shacking up the setting and more about dealing with little problems and making sure you don't draw to much attention less your betters fuck you up.

Yep, like the WoD

Edit: Actually somewhat worse since the WoD its possible to be just another scrub Whatever the Hell you are among many but as Solar in Exalted some of the most ancient and powerful groups and being in the setting have a grudge against you that's almost literally personal in some cases.

Quote from: AsenRG;900144It was mentioned on TBP that nWoD assumes the starting PCs to be teenagers. Beatcops do have more experience fighting than normal teens, that's for sure...
Me? I think that's simply due to the low granularity inherent in the Stortellering system;). They need someone "better than average brawlers" (because yes, beat cops do arrest those), but this ends up with the cop becoming overrated against other opponents.


OK, now I know you're playing a different game from me:D!


Yes, totally different games in a similarly-named setting. BTW, what system are you using:p?
I'm asking, because under the current system, or under 2e, it was quite possible to deal with Ma-Ha-Suchi, IME;).

I was using the 2.5 rewrite.  And we actually used the training times the way it was it supposed to be.

Oh, and I was mistaken earlier.  He's ESSENCE 7!  That means higher base DVs, larger mote pools and a hell of a lot more charms and spells (including Necromancy for some reason or another).  One top of his massive amounts of beastmen, which I think are Tiger Warriors?  Don't quite remember.

Point is, it's the Thousand Dooms of Stupidity, where you have this massive amount of threats that you just can't handle, aren't supposed to be able to handle, that haven't carried out their plans for world domination/destruction of all civilization/pulling Creation into the Void etc, because they've just had a massive wankfest and are still enjoying the afterglow.

And that's only taking into account the threats and opposition that your character might actually know about.  Let's say you are based in the East, have managed to somehow attain rulership of Lookshy, and used it to springboard into an empire that includes Thorns (because one of the other Solar munchkins suplexed Juggernaut through Creation ((It was fairly awesome)) and the Mask decided it wasn't worth his time), Nexus and Port Calin.

You know want to eliminate further threats to your rule, which means absorbing Greyfalls, which Greyfalls would actually be in favor of since they've pretty much given up on the Realm having been largely abandoned, and putting down this horde of beastmen marauders and their super-powered and deranged leader.  Assuming you pull this off, what's to stop some top kek Sidereal from convincing you they've been your favorite harem girl for the last several seasons and then punching your soul off during a blow job?

Quote from: Nexus;900147Its not simply what was said about Lunars. The continual stat inflation and power creep across the development of the game, the focus on more making antagonist setting elements more power, more invasive and more aggressive (including ramping up the inherent acrimony between different groups). And the implementation of changes to seemingly level the playing field so the PCs more numerous foes are almost as powerful and also better equipped, better backed and can find you more easily. It's not just what's happened in 3rd edition but the arc of the game and another thing it shares with most other spiritual White Wolf games. The PCs are supposed to be at the bottom and either on the run and working for their "betters" and not doing annoying things like actually changing the setting. Aberrant being one of the worst offenders in that regard ("What would do with the power of god? Watch the other more powerful gods story play out apparently) or the world of darkness iteration where a beat cop could tangle with a starting vamprire mehanically and come out on top.

What I quoted was just the latest brick on the pile not the first clue.

Good, but I think you're still talking about the WoD;).

Quote from: Warboss Squee;900157I was using the 2.5 rewrite.

...and you didn't die from boredom?

QuoteAnd we actually used the training times the way it was it supposed to be.

We did as well.

QuoteOh, and I was mistaken earlier.  He's ESSENCE 7!  That means higher base DVs, larger mote pools and a hell of a lot more charms and spells (including Necromancy for some reason or another).  One top of his massive amounts of beastmen, which I think are Tiger Warriors?  Don't quite remember.

So what? A full Circle curbstomps him all the same.

QuotePoint is, it's the Thousand Dooms of Stupidity, where you have this massive amount of threats that you just can't handle, aren't supposed to be able to handle, that haven't carried out their plans for world domination/destruction of all civilization/pulling Creation into the Void etc, because they've just had a massive wankfest and are still enjoying the afterglow.

I almost +1ed your post for the sheer passion, but then realized someone might misunderstand it as me agreeing with it:).
 

QuoteAnd that's only taking into account the threats and opposition that your character might actually know about.  Let's say you are based in the East, have managed to somehow attain rulership of Lookshy, and used it to springboard into an empire that includes Thorns (because one of the other Solar munchkins suplexed Juggernaut through Creation ((It was fairly awesome)) and the Mask decided it wasn't worth his time), Nexus and Port Calin.

You know want to eliminate further threats to your rule, which means absorbing Greyfalls, which Greyfalls would actually be in favor of since they've pretty much given up on the Realm having been largely abandoned, and putting down this horde of beastmen marauders and their super-powered and deranged leader.  Assuming you pull this off, what's to stop some top kek Sidereal from convincing you they've been your favorite harem girl for the last several seasons and then punching your soul off during a blow job?

You mean, apart from Surprise Anticipation Method and all that jazz;)?
Although now I totally have to try that trick on my players:D!

Quote from: Warboss Squee;900157I was using the 2.5 rewrite.  And we actually used the training times the way it was it supposed to be.

Oh, and I was mistaken earlier.  He's ESSENCE 7!  That means higher base DVs, larger mote pools and a hell of a lot more charms and spells (including Necromancy for some reason or another).  One top of his massive amounts of beastmen, which I think are Tiger Warriors?  Don't quite remember.

Point is, it's the Thousand Dooms of Stupidity, where you have this massive amount of threats that you just can't handle, aren't supposed to be able to handle, that haven't carried out their plans for world domination/destruction of all civilization/pulling Creation into the Void etc, because they've just had a massive wankfest and are still enjoying the afterglow.

And that's only taking into account the threats and opposition that your character might actually know about.  Let's say you are based in the East, have managed to somehow attain rulership of Lookshy, and used it to springboard into an empire that includes Thorns (because one of the other Solar munchkins suplexed Juggernaut through Creation ((It was fairly awesome)) and the Mask decided it wasn't worth his time), Nexus and Port Calin.

You know want to eliminate further threats to your rule, which means absorbing Greyfalls, which Greyfalls would actually be in favor of since they've pretty much given up on the Realm having been largely abandoned, and putting down this horde of beastmen marauders and their super-powered and deranged leader.  Assuming you pull this off, what's to stop some top kek Sidereal from convincing you they've been your favorite harem girl for the last several seasons and then punching your soul off during a blow job?

And yet, if we were playing D&D and I put your first level fighter in a world with Undead McLicherson, 20th level wizardman extarordinaire....you wouldn't bat an eye. You'd go gain enough power to beat him or leave him alone or whatever; but you wouldn't say "This is fucking stupid, I can never beat him he's so powerful and has too much infrastructure. And even if I do then the Grandmother of Assassins will punch my soul out in the middle of a BJ."

Quote from: Michael Gray;900174And yet, if we were playing D&D and I put your first level fighter in a world with Undead McLicherson, 20th level wizardman extarordinaire....you wouldn't bat an eye. You'd go gain enough power to beat him or leave him alone or whatever; but you wouldn't say "This is fucking stupid, I can never beat him he's so powerful and has too much infrastructure. And even if I do then the Grandmother of Assassins will punch my soul out in the middle of a BJ."

In  a typical D&D game, Undead McLicherson doesn't want the PCs dead. Personally. As individuals. In Exalted, he does want dead. Personally. As an individual. He will throw whatever resources he can at you, and he has a lot of resources that you don't and can't have simply because he's actively and aggressively leveraging his own resources to ensure you accomplish nothing before you die. And it's not just him and his massive support organization: you've got the huge, ancient dragon over there, and over there you've the epic level evil priests, and down in the Lower Planes you have some arch-devils.