Quote from: Anglachel;894510That's certainly correct. Neal, for example, is a very nice dude and very open with his development of the new engine for Scion.

My problem is that the big boss of OPP (Rich T) is an asshat as well...easily on par with the Ex3 Devs. So i am extremely reluctant to give OPP any of my money.

Ian's a class act too, and is being similar with the Aeon stuff, though I think he's got less time to post on forums 'cuz he does other shite.

Quote from: AsenRG;894538Yes, the new Scion team leaves me with a positive impression. Though I'm not sure whether I'm going to back their KS.
Ultimately, this will depend on whether they decide to clean up the BS in the setting:). It's actually almost a worse failure in that regard!
IMO, the only reason few people commented on the setting in the first edition because the system was the first thing they noticed, and the harder one to rectify;). And of course, once you know you're not going to use the game, what's the point to keep explaining why it sucks?

There were so, so, so many issues with Scion, but yes, many more beyond just the broken system..

For me, that first corebook "Hero" stands as one of the worst RPG products I've ever purchased. Well over 100+ pages are dedicated to a rail road adventure where players aren't even allowed to make their own characters!!! You have to use the characters they give you in the core book...and you can't deviate from the story at all because it "Continues" in the other two books...

So of course, with half the book taken up by a shitty railroad story, and the rest by broken mechanics, there was zero advice on how to actually run games yourself. We knew the Titans were bad, but were given no explanation of who they were and what their goals are..imagine that, imagine you're given a Superhero setting that talks up "The League of Evil" as being bad, but never tells you about any of the individual members or what their goals are.... Instead, for game advice it says "Go read comic books!"

Because that's what Scion did, for game idea advice it said "Go read Myths!"

Quote from: Orphan81;894575There were so, so, so many issues with Scion, but yes, many more beyond just the broken system..

For me, that first corebook "Hero" stands as one of the worst RPG products I've ever purchased. Well over 100+ pages are dedicated to a rail road adventure where players aren't even allowed to make their own characters!!! You have to use the characters they give you in the core book...and you can't deviate from the story at all because it "Continues" in the other two books...

So of course, with half the book taken up by a shitty railroad story, and the rest by broken mechanics, there was zero advice on how to actually run games yourself. We knew the Titans were bad, but were given no explanation of who they were and what their goals are..imagine that, imagine you're given a Superhero setting that talks up "The League of Evil" as being bad, but never tells you about any of the individual members or what their goals are.... Instead, for game advice it says "Go read comic books!"

Because that's what Scion did, for game idea advice it said "Go read Myths!"

I don't need to imagine anything. I own it, though no way am I going to re-download it just to comment how bad it is:).

And of course, I still maintain that there's nothing wrong with not giving GM advice if you assume the book is only for people that have run a game. That's true for Ex3, for example.

But combininig lack of GMing section with scores of pages on an adventure is weird. And the advice given is actually counter-productive, because if you've actually read myths, or start reading them because of this advice? Then you're more prone to notice what a hackjob Scion has made out of them, thus making you less likely to ever run it;)!

OTOH, this means the current Scion team have a low bar to clear if they merely want to improve the game a lot:D! Making a game worth reading out of this legacy is the real challenge.

Ex3 could have used some GM advice regardless as its focus and direction have changed so much even if you run it before some advice may be needed. As several people have suggested and asked on other discussion threads. And assuming that you're only going to get some of your old fans back seems like a pretty cynical policy for a new edition.

Quote from: Nexus;894607Ex3 could have used some GM advice regardless as its focus and direction have changed so much even if you run it before some advice may be needed. As several people have suggested and asked on other discussion threads. And assuming that you're only going to get some of your old fans back seems like a pretty cynical policy for a new edition.

At least with Exalted though, there's enough setting info you can figure a few things out. The Dragonblooded are hunting down the Exalted, and they give you enough world information to make up your own stuff.

Scion gave zero world information. Like I said, the "Titans" are the bad guys... only they don't talk about them in any capacity in the book. They give like 8 NPC write ups that are random monsters, like Biker Centaurs... but at the end of the day, you have no idea what Scions are suppose to do. As a GM I didn't know what types of adventures I was suppose to run, I didn't even know who the bad guys were...

But oh man, I had a 120 page railroad adventure I could use with pre-made characters my players would be FORCED to use... and oh yeah, the bad guys in that Adventure? Not Titans...other Scions..

Quote from: Orphan81;894629At least with Exalted though, there's enough setting info you can figure a few things out. The Dragonblooded are hunting down the Exalted, and they give you enough world information to make up your own stuff.

Scion gave zero world information. Like I said, the "Titans" are the bad guys... only they don't talk about them in any capacity in the book. They give like 8 NPC write ups that are random monsters, like Biker Centaurs... but at the end of the day, you have no idea what Scions are suppose to do. As a GM I didn't know what types of adventures I was suppose to run, I didn't even know who the bad guys were...

But oh man, I had a 120 page railroad adventure I could use with pre-made characters my players would be FORCED to use... and oh yeah, the bad guys in that Adventure? Not Titans...other Scions..

Oh I have Scion (all three books). Its an an interesting premise poorly implemented no doubt and explain even worse.

 I was countering the suggestion that Ex3 didn't really need any gming section because people had played it before. Ex3 needs some advice about what its "defaults" assumptions are, how to handle the alleged political slant it has like what how do Bronze age imperial governments and civilizations works regarding things like politics and war. How to handle the character's alleged high levels of power. The subtle suggestion that if you don't know these things already or aren't willing to take on college level study to learn them perhaps you shouldn't be playing the game is just screwed up.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;894463We need to discuss it once we have it.

Definitely!

Quote from: Nexus;894607Ex3 could have used some GM advice regardless as its focus and direction have changed so much even if you run it before some advice may be needed. As several people have suggested and asked on other discussion threads. And assuming that you're only going to get some of your old fans back seems like a pretty cynical policy for a new edition.

Opinions, however, vary:).
And personally, I think the Storyteller Advice in Ex2 would have been better if it contained some very simple advice. "React as any Referee should. Say what honesty demands when accounting for what you have decided about the world already. Don't pre-plan what's going to happen, pre-plan what NPCs do. Go with the flow. When you don't see how opposition could prevent the PCs from achieving a goal, ask yourself about the possible consequences - including the unintended ones. Remember that sufficient numbers always trump power. Remember that an Exalt, any Exalt, can achieve anything, but the price might make them stop in their tracks. Remember that conquering is a matter of power, organizing an administration afterwards takes compromise, dealing with the people of influence. Remember that the easy way is always also the one that makes you question your PC's humanity".

There, you have it now;). Nobody can teach you how to react in each particular situation in Exalted, not anymore than you can write the same kind of book for D&D, and the principles don't change because of power level.

Quote from: Orphan81;894629At least with Exalted though, there's enough setting info you can figure a few things out. The Dragonblooded are hunting down the Exalted, and they give you enough world information to make up your own stuff.

Scion gave zero world information. Like I said, the "Titans" are the bad guys... only they don't talk about them in any capacity in the book. They give like 8 NPC write ups that are random monsters, like Biker Centaurs... but at the end of the day, you have no idea what Scions are suppose to do. As a GM I didn't know what types of adventures I was suppose to run, I didn't even know who the bad guys were...

But oh man, I had a 120 page railroad adventure I could use with pre-made characters my players would be FORCED to use... and oh yeah, the bad guys in that Adventure? Not Titans...other Scions..

Yeah, the only person who believed this to be a good idea was a friend of mine. But what he said is, quote, "given the hackjob of presenting the pantheons, I'm glad the same people didn't write more about what people across the word believe", unquote. Not exactly the level of praise they would have expected, I suspect:D!

On a slightly off topic note, I was looking up Palladium books on wikipedia. I see Onyx Path isn't the only group to piss of fans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium_Books#Robotech_RPG_Tactics

QuotePalladium Books and Kevin Siembieda continue to receive criticism regarding the handling of Robotech RPG Tactics after a successful Kickstarter campaign raising $1,442,312 from 5,342 backers, ending on May 20, 2013.[10] During the campaign, Palladium specified an intended release date of Robotech RPG Tactics as early as 2013 Holiday Season. Shortly before expected release, Palladium Books shifted the projection to Spring/Summer of 2014; later the date was shifted again, to late Summer/Autumn 2014 with international backers several months after. Kevin Siembieda and Palladium Books attributed these shifting dates to a number of unforeseen issues including Chinese New Year causing production to start later than expected.
On September 25, 2013, Update #113 echoed the intention of a holiday release and promised Kickstarter backers receipt of product prior to retail distribution.[11] This was followed by an update in November 2013 listing several unforeseen issues holding up production and further delay.[12] On September 8, 2014 several Kickstarter backers indicated receipt of their copies of the game, while the remainder of rewards were awaiting delivery from China via cargo ship. There were six cargo ships containing backer rewards, as indicated in Update #156 to Kickstarter backers. This same update also provided some clarification on delivery schedules, and outlined Palladium Book's 'two wave' product release schedule designed to offset additional delay in providing promised products. Some backers perceived the update implied the second wave of items were nearing production. Citing no specific dates however, Palladium estimated mid to late October 2014 as the general time Kick Starter rewards would be available for delivery to backers.
On July 14, 2014 Palladium Books issued a plea to backers seeking permission to sell any available copies of Robotech RPG Tactics to attendees of Gen Con 2014, a perceived divergence from an earlier promise to make copies unavailable to the public until backer rewards were fully delivered. Kevin Siembieda wrote:
"...I announced we are planning to bring some Robotech® RPG Tactics™ product to sell. A few hundred of six items: the main box game, four of the expansion packs (Tomahawk/Defender Destroids, Regult Battlepods, Artillery Battlepods, and Glaug Command) and the rule book. That would mean a few hundred people will get these items before most of the 5,200+ Kickstarter backers...I implore you to say “yes.” Please give us your permission. We believe it would be disastrous not to have the small selection of items I've listed available for sale. Not having them will hurt the launch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and Palladium Books...Anyone who does NOT respond by July 21st [2014], we will consider to be a “yes".[13]
Ultimately, the survey showed overwhelming support for allowing the sale with a majority of supporting votes coming from non-participatory backers. Several days before Gen Con, Palladium Books received word the shipping containers containing Robotech RPG Tactics had been tagged for inspection by US Customs subsequently blocking any opportunity to take the game to Gen Con and further delaying shipment to backers, projected at the time to early to mid-September 2014 for US residents.
International backers had not received their backer rewards prior to April 2015 nor had report of backer rewards shipping outside of the US been made my Palladium Books, despite reports of Robotech RPG Tactics boxed-sets appearing in shops outside the United States. International backers receiving items mid April 2015.
At Gen Con 2014, an attendee received one unopened core box game used for display at Gen Con and recorded an unboxing video of Robotech RPG Tactics to allow backers to see the final production quality.[14] Subsequently, many fans expressed concern over several production oversights and issues. Notably, included game pieces were missing paint, paper materials used to play the game were missing altogether from all units shipped, game pieces contained manufacturing errors such as injection mold seams and pitted surfaces, and assembly instructions were vague or inaccurate with context to materials shown to backers throughout the Kickstarter Campaign.
In Update #154 to Kickstarter backers, Palladium books issued a brief apology to backers and fans, "Oh, and we only recently realized that the plastic blast template is not painted, and it is too late to do anything about it now. This detail slipped past all of us – Palladium, Ninja Division, the factory, everyone. Sorry. It still looks great, is a quality piece of plastic and is easy to use.".[15]
Printed materials missing from initial backer rewards were later released in low resolution watermarked PDF format on the website DriveThru RPG for backers to print copies along with updated assembly instructions to all game pieces requiring assembly, free of charge.[16]
In September 2015 several backers openly discussed filing complaint with the Attorney General and Better Business Bureau in Michigan, with claims of filing becoming more public in December 2015 during speculative discussions from Siembada's comments regarding the game.[17]
Palladium Books made few statements regarding Robotech RPG Tactics through 2015, particularly regarding specific release dates. However, in January 2016 Kevin released a statement on the KickStarter project page remaining silent regarding the second portion of backer rewards:
″...As I have stated, for strategic and business reasons we have been unable to share with you everything Palladium has been exploring, considering and working on. As you know, one of the things we have been doing is looking into and considering possible ways to reduce part counts and make the game pieces easier to put together. As we get into actual production and manufacturing for Wave Two this year, we will share plenty with you. And we think you’ll be pleased. Considering all the delays and frustration of the past, we do not want to even speculate on release dates and other details until we have hard, solid information we are confident with ourselves.″[18][19]
As of February 2016, only 176 backers of over 5000 have claimed receipt of their full backer rewards and more than 1000 days have passed since the initial Kickstarter project ended. Currently the Better Business Bureau has 14 complaints directed toward Palladium Books from July 2014 through February 2016, one of which is a complaint with no response

Quote from: Nexus;894632Oh I have Scion (all three books). Its an an interesting premise poorly implemented no doubt and explain even worse.

Isn't this the case with all the White Wolf games?

Quote from: Iron_Rain;894872On a slightly off topic note, I was looking up Palladium books on wikipedia. I see Onyx Path isn't the only group to piss of fans.

Palladium's been a byword for delays for decades. Mechanoid Space has been "Coming Soon" for what, twenty years? I think it's even been available for pre-order at some point.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;894957Isn't this the case with all the White Wolf games?

To varying degrees, yes, but that's a different rant

Quote from: The Butcher;894961Palladium's been a byword for delays for decades. Mechanoid Space has been "Coming Soon" for what, twenty years? I think it's even been available for pre-order at some point.

I remember Mechanoid Space being "in progress" when I was in my first year of high school, and this is the year of my 25th reunion.  What's crazy to me is that Kevin hasn't just said, "You know, fuck it, it's never coming."

At least, he did not take some money for some vaporware that it is likely to be released the day following the relase of Far West (unless there were some pre-purchase of it ...). And last time I check, the Robotech KS was not in good shape (Iron rain's post confirms its dire state ...) ...

Quote from: Future Villain Band;895662I remember Mechanoid Space being "in progress" when I was in my first year of high school, and this is the year of my 25th reunion.  What's crazy to me is that Kevin hasn't just said, "You know, fuck it, it's never coming."

Because Kevin is essentially one of those DMs with a closet full of half-written setting material that he plans to get to someday, who also happens to be owner of an actual game publishing company.

JG