Quote from: JamesV;889662Wade through Big Purple threads for SJW claptrap? Now you're just being mean.

Can confirm, though Snowman is exaggerating the issue to some degree and focusing and not bringing up the others..

The thing is, Beast Pissed everyone off, not just anti-authoritarian types, but many members of their target audience as well. It was recieved so poorly during it's Kickstarter Draft, that emergency writing was done to give an entire new focus to the game...

In any case, we'll go over the original problems real quick here..

Beast was originally pitched as playing something that wasn't human, and yearning for the suffering of others...That's literally what they feed on...Human suffering. One of the splat types was how you made people suffer... Through intense pain? Through Bullying? Through Fear? Through Stealing things?

In any case, you thought you were Human but you never were...One day you have a dream of a big monster that comes and eats your soul and you awaken to your Beastness...

Beasts have no real goals or purpose beyond living and answering the call of their hunger. They could feed by doing shit to people physically, or entering their dreams to do so... The point was you had to literally cause someone to have to make an Integrity check ((Nwod's Sanity System)) to get an effect..

So here's where Heroes came in...

Heroes were people who had been attacked by a Beast...They were people who had lower integrity scores as well... The point Onyx Path was trying to enforce...was the people with lower Integrity scores were "Bad" because they had done things which lowered their Integrity...

The problem is...Mental illness, and Abuse can also cause you to lose Integrity points...

So we have the story of a Beast comes up to some already abused Victim and starts bullying the shit out of them in order to feed...

A Hero is a person who snaps when this happens, and decides they're going to kill the Beast who fucked with them...

Now again, the writers kept trying to say how Bad and Selfish these Heroes were, Because hey... The Heroes now want to kill all Beasts, and they get more powers for killing Beasts...and they're selfish and want to build up their own Legends..

And Beasts? Well Beasts just want to be left alone! (Actual line from the Draft) So you have these inhuman creatures who want to be left alone, but enjoy feeding on Human suffering, picking on someone with low self esteem until that person decides to hunt them and their kind down to stop it..

The Heroes were suppose to be stand ins for GamerGate, Men's Rights Activists, Conservatives, "Nice Guys", as well as actual bad people like Racists too... The problem was way to much ambiguity... You could see the political axe to grind the writers had...

The problem with the Tone on Heroes also wasn't helped by the sample Heroes wildely differing from one another and the material presented..

The First Hero was a Fedora wearing Neck Beard who says "M'lady". I shit you not...Beyond the fact he was the wrong stereotype for a GamerGater or MRA, it was just stupid..

The other Hero NPC was someone everybody liked and couldn't understand how she was suppose to be a Villain.. Now real quickly here's a thing about Beasts.. they can make Spiritual Lairs where they take on their true form.. people can enter these..

Anyway, Beast attacks girl.. Girl chases the beast into it's Lair (Teen Girl by the way) and actually manages to slay it... When she leaves, her body leaves but her spirit gets stuck...

So her body goes into a coma....and her Spirit is stuck in the Primordial Dream (The place all the Lairs connect to)... Now thing is, she can get into Other Lairs... so lots of other Heroes know about her and call her the "Warrior Princess"... She shows up and helps them... and most of the time, they let her get the Killing Blow (Only the Hero who gets the Killing Blow gets the cool extra powers)... Because they want her to live... they're all trying to power her up so she'll wake from her coma..

Everyone fucking loved the Warrior Princess...and quite reasonably couldn't understand why she was suppose to be evil and a villain...

Now we get into some other parts.... Beast was suppose to resonate with Trans folk and Queer folk... I.e. they didn't ask to be born the way they are... it's just the way they are... But lots of actual Trans and Queer folk didn't like the allusions of them being monsters who fed on Human suffering for no good reason...

The Example of play as well, involved a character portraying an old woman... Said old woman had a teen boy next door who stole some other kids Halloween Candy... She sneaks into his house, poisons the candy he stole.. waits until he starts throwing up...then places a plastic bag over his head and whispers dark things to him while suffocating him until he's unconscious...

This was presented in a manner of being totally awesome and cool...

Further, Beast was presented as the most cross over worthy splat... Only, all of the In character fiction made them out to be "Poochy" they were cooler and more powerful than all the other Supernaturals and all the other monsters could only sit around and talk about how awesome Beasts were...

All of this added up, led to Beast needing a MAJOR overhaul...

The biggest change involved giving Beasts a REASON to torture others... Now they're suppose to be the primordial lessons for humanity.. the whole "Don't put your hand on the burning stove" idea.. they're suppose to teach painful lessons...

Heroes were originally the folks who were suppose to learn those lessons and take them back to the tribe, but in the modern day they're to bombarded by society and end up going crazy just trying to kill the Beasts rather than learn anything..

Now Beasts can ACTUALLY redeem Heroes... They're also put on a more equal footing with the other supernatural creatures Lorewise.. and now they're people who choose to take on the mantle of a Beast..

Anyway that's the saga as encapuslated as I can tell it.

How am I exaggerating when every thing I said is true?  You confirmed every point that I said to be true.

Quote from: Orphan81;889709Anyway that's the saga as encapsulated as I can tell it.

Thanks for the summation. It cleared up allot. In the rewrite do Beasts still target humans with low Integrity?

Beast's earlier issues remind of some problems people had with Changeling: The Dreaming. There was a pretty clear slant going on, what the writers thought was cool was Glamorous and generated wonder, what they thought was  dull was Banal and bringing Winter including things like coin collecting. There wasn't much rhyme or reason to it so we ignored largely ignored their calls.

I can under see why trying to make the PCs a metaphor of LBGT people went over like a wet fart in church. That was just a terrible idea. HBO's True Blood had the same problem. Vampires were a practical Anvil level metaphor for homosexuals but they were usually depicted as a legitimate dangerous threats and outright monsters.

Which we were apparently supposed to think were cool.

Quote from: Orphan81;889709Beast was originally pitched as playing something that wasn't human, and yearning for the suffering of others...That's literally what they feed on...Human suffering. One of the splat types was how you made people suffer... Through intense pain? Through Bullying? Through Fear? Through Stealing things?

Beasts have no real goals or purpose beyond living and answering the call of their hunger. They could feed by doing shit to people physically, or entering their dreams to do so... The point was you had to literally cause someone to have to make an Integrity check ((Nwod's Sanity System)) to get an effect..

So here's where Heroes came in...

Heroes were people who had been attacked by a Beast...They were people who had lower integrity scores as well... The point Onyx Path was trying to enforce...was the people with lower Integrity scores were "Bad" because they had done things which lowered their Integrity...

The problem is...Mental illness, and Abuse can also cause you to lose Integrity points...

So we have the story of a Beast comes up to some already abused Victim and starts bullying the shit out of them in order to feed...

A Hero is a person who snaps when this happens, and decides they're going to kill the Beast who fucked with them...

Now again, the writers kept trying to say how Bad and Selfish these Heroes were, Because hey... The Heroes now want to kill all Beasts, and they get more powers for killing Beasts...and they're selfish and want to build up their own Legends..

And Beasts? Well Beasts just want to be left alone! (Actual line from the Draft) So you have these inhuman creatures who want to be left alone, but enjoy feeding on Human suffering, picking on someone with low self esteem until that person decides to hunt them and their kind down to stop it..

The Heroes were suppose to be stand ins for GamerGate, Men's Rights Activists, Conservatives, "Nice Guys", as well as actual bad people like Racists too... The problem was way to much ambiguity... You could see the political axe to grind the writers had...

OK, that's officially hilariously bad:D.
I mean, if anything, that means that GamerGate, MRAs, Conservatives, "Nice Guys" (wtf is that and why is it supposed to be a bad thing?) and Racists have all been attacked by LGBT people and are trying to fight back. If that's not validation of those groups' agenda, I don't know what is:p!
I mean, the fuck, how didn't this get pegged as the new RaHoWa? It's about as subtle, and also excuses racists and most of the other groups listed here (still no idea why "Nice Guys" are here, sounds like someone you'd want to be your friend:)).

QuoteThe problem with the Tone on Heroes also wasn't helped by the sample Heroes wildely differing from one another and the material presented..

The First Hero was a Fedora wearing Neck Beard who says "M'lady". I shit you not...Beyond the fact he was the wrong stereotype for a GamerGater or MRA, it was just stupid..

Other than lack of fashion taste, what was he doing wrong?

QuoteThe other Hero NPC was someone everybody liked and couldn't understand how she was suppose to be a Villain.. Now real quickly here's a thing about Beasts.. they can make Spiritual Lairs where they take on their true form.. people can enter these..

Anyway, Beast attacks girl.. Girl chases the beast into it's Lair (Teen Girl by the way) and actually manages to slay it... When she leaves, her body leaves but her spirit gets stuck...

So her body goes into a coma....and her Spirit is stuck in the Primordial Dream (The place all the Lairs connect to)... Now thing is, she can get into Other Lairs... so lots of other Heroes know about her and call her the "Warrior Princess"... She shows up and helps them... and most of the time, they let her get the Killing Blow (Only the Hero who gets the Killing Blow gets the cool extra powers)... Because they want her to live... they're all trying to power her up so she'll wake from her coma..

Everyone fucking loved the Warrior Princess...and quite reasonably couldn't understand why she was suppose to be evil and a villain...

Sign me up in the Warrior Princess Fanclub:D! Her, a villain?
Someone's out of touch.

QuoteNow we get into some other parts.... Beast was suppose to resonate with Trans folk and Queer folk... I.e. they didn't ask to be born the way they are... it's just the way they are... But lots of actual Trans and Queer folk didn't like the allusions of them being monsters who fed on Human suffering for no good reason...

Well, duh! I don't blame them.

QuoteThe Example of play as well, involved a character portraying an old woman... Said old woman had a teen boy next door who stole some other kids Halloween Candy... She sneaks into his house, poisons the candy he stole.. waits until he starts throwing up...then places a plastic bag over his head and whispers dark things to him while suffocating him until he's unconscious...

This was presented in a manner of being totally awesome and cool...

Further, Beast was presented as the most cross over worthy splat...

In a way, it is. Nothing else can make the Forsaken and the Pure join forces, I suspect.

QuoteOnly, all of the In character fiction made them out to be "Poochy" they were cooler and more powerful than all the other Supernaturals and all the other monsters could only sit around and talk about how awesome Beasts were...

And Mar(t)y S(t)uism to boot?

QuoteAll of this added up, led to Beast needing a MAJOR overhaul...

The biggest change involved giving Beasts a REASON to torture others... Now they're suppose to be the primordial lessons for humanity.. the whole "Don't put your hand on the burning stove" idea.. they're suppose to teach painful lessons...

Heroes were originally the folks who were suppose to learn those lessons and take them back to the tribe, but in the modern day they're to bombarded by society and end up going crazy just trying to kill the Beasts rather than learn anything..

Now Beasts can ACTUALLY redeem Heroes... They're also put on a more equal footing with the other supernatural creatures Lorewise.. and now they're people who choose to take on the mantle of a Beast..

Oh, hey, I remember participating in a Beast thread. I'm now glad I said I don't like the idea of the re-write.
"I'm going to feed on your suffering in order to teach you lessons!"
Yeah, right, I have a word for such people. In fact, I know many words that would fit:p!
Basically, I'd have an easier time playing a force of nature, knowing full well that it has to be destroyed at the end;).

Quote from: Nexus;889729I can under see why trying to make the PCs a metaphor of LBGT people went over like a wet fart in church. That was just a terrible idea. HBO's True Blood had the same problem. Vampires were a practical Anvil level metaphor for homosexuals but they were usually depicted as a legitimate dangerous threats and outright monsters.

Which we were apparently supposed to think were cool.

Vampires are a metaphor for sexual deviations since before there was television. At the time of their [STRIKE]creation[/STRIKE] reimagining, homosexuality was very much considered a deviation even across the Western world.
And yet we don't need to comment on people thinking they're cool...not just to the touch.

For a change, it seems HBO just gave you the authentic vampire experience, at least in that particulat regard:D!

Quote from: AsenRG;889771OK, that's officially hilariously bad:D.
I mean, if anything, that means that GamerGate, MRAs, Conservatives, "Nice Guys" (wtf is that and why is it supposed to be a bad thing?)

In this context, it's a guy who is sweet and nice and helpful and a shoulder to cry on and just a really good friend, and then gets angry and resentful when he finds out that he's not entitled to sex as a result.

I'm sure it's actually a thing, although I also think the term gets thrown around way too much.

Quote from: AsenRG;889771Vampires are a metaphor for sexual deviations since before there was television. At the time of their [STRIKE]creation[/STRIKE] reimagining, homosexuality was very much considered a deviation even across the Western world.
And yet we don't need to comment on people thinking they're cool...not just to the touch.

For a change, it seems HBO just gave you the authentic vampire experience, at least in that particulat regard:D!

Have you ever seen the show?

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;889774In this context, it's a guy who is sweet and nice and helpful and a shoulder to cry on and just a really good friend, and then gets angry and resentful when he finds out that he's not entitled to sex as a result.

I'm sure it's actually a thing, although I also think the term gets thrown around way too much.

Thanks, got it:).

Quote from: Nexus;889779Have you ever seen the show?

No, I'm just having fun with the idea that HBO might have delivered an authentic experience by accident;). Sorry I didn't make it clear.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;889774In this context, it's a guy who is sweet and nice and helpful and a shoulder to cry on and just a really good friend, and then gets angry and resentful when he finds out that he's not entitled to sex as a result.

I'm sure it's actually a thing, although I also think the term gets thrown around way too much.

I always thought the term was born from a reaction to the complaint that the men that women are close friends with that might be attracted to them get frustrated seeing them turn to other men particularly "bad boys" get hurt and cry on their shoulders but continuously rebuff or ignore them as ever being more than friends because women want bad boys not "nice guys".  I guess in modern slang this is "Friend zoned"?

Or more broadly that some guys being quieter, less aggressive, less bold and "nicer" don't stand much of chance romantically against more Alpha Male sorts even if those Alphas are jerks.

"Nice Guy" seems to be an inversion of that turning the "nice guy" into a creepy passive aggressive stalker that mostly fakes being a friend to get close in hopes of manipulating a woman into a sexual or romantic relationship or just assumes his kindness earns him sex. I think it something that occurs but I agree the idea and term (like so much jargon) is used way to much. Its applied to practically any instance of unrequited love, shy would be suitors or having any interest at all in a woman you're friends. I mean I've seen thread (including one on Tang) asking if its acceptable to BE friends with a woman you're attracted too at all.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;889484They lied about the release date.  What's inside the book, twice now, by claiming that the rules will be 'completely different', despite giving backers preview copies.

So yeah, they've lied.  Just because they are incompetent (which is no excuse, given how many Kickstarters they've had now) does not mean they won't lie to save face.  Which if TBP is anything to go by, they do a lot of.

Missing a release date is not lying about a release date. Unless of course you think every product delay is a lie, I guess. If so, you must hate Nintendo and Blizzard entertainment. And as for the rules being completely different? They are. They wrote an entirely new combat engine. The social system is nearly unrecognizable. What'd you expect? Abandoning Storyteller?

The combat system mostly uses same calculations and attributes but you just grind though a different set of numbers. They dropped the "Ticks" though.

The Social System is hardly unrecognizable. Its improved and makes heavier use of intimacies but like combat the original is still and quite visible. The division between MDVs was dropped, Intimacies were expanded as a replacement for Virtues (though it was suggested that intimacies and other factors could impose greater modifiers as situational effects) and some more "moves" were added but mostly they boil down to the same "Beat MDV and have an effect unless target spends Willpower" as before just with more boiler plate attached.

Some of the "new" rules are just expansions on the old ones or implied modifiers made explicit. Most of the rest of the game is identical. Its a evolutionary change rather the revolutionary one that was implied by the phrase "Completely different game".  Its definitely not a "completely different" game. Less changed then between OWOD storyteller and NWOD storyteller or AEON continuity storyteller and what I've seen "Sardonyx (sp). If it was a "lie" or over hyping is up to the beholder.

I think he raises some good points. Of course GoldenH got a mod warning for it.

Quote from: GoldenH;19983866Them's the facts.

I'll never play Exalted with the people who I played Exalted 1e with. Why? Because they're not even looking at Exalted releases anymore. And honestly, neither am I.

Exalted 3e will have a couple months of people saying it's perfect and then it will collapse like 2e did because the system, again, will not work, because, again, they'll play the game enough to realize the flaws and inevitably the writers will lose the ability to produce a single vision of the game's setting and rules.

What will fix it? You'll never fix it, because there's been too much variation in the rules and too many camps like one incompatible version or another. And they should be allowed to. Feel free to pry those 3rd edition shadowrun rules out of the fan's cold dead hands.

But of course the developers are still trying to use the books as a way to win silly internet arguments and have their own exalted become the 'canon exalted'. Well, as long as you're fostering such a hostile and toxic environment, you'll never reclaim the creativity and community of the good 'ol days.

Gold said nothing, but the truth.

Okay I covered manses and demenses.  It is here.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;889240If it were me, I'd want a coupon I could put towards other Onyx Path products at this point.

#DamageControl

What would you want if it was a dice kickstarter that had been totally silent for over two years?

QuoteYou left an excluded middle the size of the atlantic ocean, Lucky. Poor, excluded middle. In DnD, you are not supposed to change the status quo. Nations and City-States are appropriately statted, in their armies and luminaries, so even someone at 20th level could not take them on, having multiple high-as-possible level defenders and powers watching over it. In Exalted? You can just knock down the sandcastles before you. Right out of the gate, you can challenge the great Realm that stands astride Creation, to fight off its legions and duel its champions.

You are bypassing the entire part where you are a walking geopolitical entity, which the blurb in the back of the book promises, and delivers, in spades.

Exalted gives something no other game does, but what it does is something that interacts with its world, people, and nations, not something that ignores them all to dick around with metaphysics (which you can absolutely do.)

Full Disclosure: I'm not a D and D fan but not a hater either. Its just not my thing. And I haven't playedi more than a handful of times in my gaming career. I couldn't even tell what you what editions I played when I did.

But from limited direct exposure and listening to players, some of the avid talk about their games the above just doesn't strike me as true. D and D doesn't seem to push making major changes to the setting as a primary setting point but the idea that you can't or its set up that way seems inaccurate. And I take any comments about D and D from an Exalted fan with a grain of salts. Not to mention complaining about the figures and groups that are established as being the Powers the Be being extremely powerful and largely beyond he reach of PCs for long time seems unfair coming from an Exalted player (with its well known "Elder Problem").