Quote from: Nexus;863292Just idle musing but maybe they should have gone full on meta for the combat system.  Withering attacks shouldn't have been referred to as "attacks" as mechanically and narrative they're of a roll to determine how much impact your character and advantages (strength, weapon, armor, etc) has on the combat scene and pacing.

Not sure what to call them though, at least something other than "withering". and I agree with idea Initiative might have worked better as Momentum which seems to describe what it actually is better than Initiative a word that already has allot of baggage for most gamers.

I admit that's one of the things about the rules that looses me; that it seems to freely dance back and fourth between in setting and meta, often with an assumption that its obvious when it does so. The "Solars don't know they have charms and charms aren't an in game concept... except when they are."* is something of an example of something that just doesn't click for me. Though I can understand the desire to avoid the other end of the spectrum where every mechanic is in game that characters in the setting could write out their character sheets.

*and if they aren't why stick to the elaborate florid names for them? More practical names related to what they actually do would make it much easier for people like me to remember them.

Which raises the overall question: If you want a "meta" or "story-based" approach to combat, if you want a coherent social combat system with real game effects, and if you want playable rules for running large groups in combat... why not just use FATE?

JG

Quote from: Brand55;863339Yet there was just a single opponent, and from what I understand numbers are extremely important in EX3's combat system.

Which made it a 2 on 1 fight, hardly unbalanced given the charm supremacy:). That's everybody that showed up, though, so I couldn't set a bigger test.
Or it wouldn't have been unbalanced, except of course they crashed her before she had acted. My group is taking notes of the way I play my PCs in other games, I suspect:D!

QuoteBut that wasn't my main point. Running one or even two antagonists at a time doesn't seem to be a huge problem. In fact, I'd say EX3 seems great for small fights. My concern is with large conflicts--the sorts of large melees that should be par for the course with a game like Exalted.

Large conflicts become large due to battlegroups, I suspect. In the end-of-chapter fight, you'd have the Boss, the Dragon, the Bad Chick and the Extras.

QuoteThat's why my example to you had 8 or 9 Exalted and a bunch of mortal combatants involved. It's the sort of fight where there's a lot to keep track of and momentum can easily swing back and forth depending on tactics and how the dice act up.

Momentum swinging happens even in single fights, I've found.
But let me quote an Exalted GM I played 2e with, when I asked the same question. "There's now a crater where the place you fought in was, and everything around is covered in glass from the molten sand".
Seriously, 8 or 9 Exalted in one place is something that's not your everyday fight, nor should it be. Almost all fights in the Iliad are duels, as well as almost all fights in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon".

QuoteI'm fine with rules-heavy and discreet powers, but you're right in that the current edition of Exalted isn't for me. I'd be okay with something somewhere between E&E and Exalted with a few hundred powers/Charms, though I'd want them simplified and shortened for ease of use. Mostly, I'd want a system that moves quickly and cuts down on the record keeping on my end as GM.

My records for the fight with the Dawn Exalted are, as follow:
"Base pool 11/7/5(+3), Unarmed, E1, WP5, 13/26 (7 committed for Presence Charm), MA Supernal, Black Claw style to the capstone including, Resistance charm, Rain of Obsidian Butterflies Control (obsidian claws for stunting)". That's as detailed an NPC as I need for a fight, BTW.
If it's too much, Exalted is too much, yeah.
It certainly compares favourably with my notes for NPCs in LotW, which is probably the heaviest I'm willing to go:).

QuoteBut, yeah. All that aside, I'm glad your group is enjoying themselves so far.

Likewise;).

Quote from: James Gillen;863341Which raises the overall question: If you want a "meta" or "story-based" approach to combat, if you want a coherent social combat system with real game effects, and if you want playable rules for running large groups in combat... why not just use FATE?

JG

Except I just linked to a post explaining why Initiative isn't "meta", and for the fact that social influence is now more freeform, you have a point;).
If you do indeed want all of the things you listed, Fate is right there.

My eyes glazed over at the example combat, I'm afraid (*the florid writing style didn't help). I don't really see how that combat couldn't have been describing the process of pretty much any other system, but I'm sure it's more apparent in play.

I'm very surprised that the "Tripping Wally Stabs Himself" power names aren't an in-game conceit. For a meta description, they're really unwieldy and also rather genre specific (i.e. for a certain kind of Asian media); I thought the system modelled Homer / Beowulf / etc. as well?

'Reviewers have been saying that "Exalted is a... game... playable" in many dynamic, exciting ways!'

Quote from: James Gillen;862947Ellipsis.  The salesman's best friend.  

Quote from: Nexus;862972Do you have links?

Nah, just being silly. Reminded me of this: http://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblog/2015/sep/09/legend-review-movie-marketing-false-advertising

Quote from: Majus;863380I'm very surprised that the "Tripping Wally Stabs Himself" power names aren't an in-game conceit. For a meta description, they're really unwieldy and also rather genre specific (i.e. for a certain kind of Asian media); I thought the system modelled Homer / Beowulf / etc. as well?

Yeah, so? Do you think that European warriors didn't use fancy names for their techniques:D?

Quote from: List of techniques by Fiore dei LiberiWhole iron door
Woman's guard
Window guard
Woman's guard on the left
Long guard
Middle iron door
Short guard
Boar's tooth
Long tail guard
Two horned guard
Frontal crown
Middle boar's tooth guard

Damn, now I want to write a Martial Art cascade for Exalted using these names;).

Quote from: James Gillen;863341Which raises the overall question: If you want a "meta" or "story-based" approach to combat, if you want a coherent social combat system with real game effects, and if you want playable rules for running large groups in combat... why not just use FATE?

JG

Apparently that's not what the majority* of the fans want. They want something very tactical and crunch heavy where mechanical choices "mean something". They want the hundreds of little fiddley widgets driven by exception based design.

*read that as the most vocal, the current Alpha fans/developers, etc as you like.

Quote from: Majus;863380My eyes glazed over at the example combat, I'm afraid (*the florid writing style didn't help). I don't really see how that combat couldn't have been describing the process of pretty much any other system, but I'm sure it's more apparent in play.

I'm very surprised that the "Tripping Wally Stabs Himself" power names aren't an in-game conceit. For a meta description, they're really unwieldy and also rather genre specific (i.e. for a certain kind of Asian media); I thought the system modelled Homer / Beowulf / etc. as well?

Yeah, combat examples tend to lose me and really the "fluff" can be in any system. There's nothing specific to the third edition rules that drive it.

I did find it a little funny (as in amusing I'm assuming the poster is honestly rolling) how the rolls played out a typical "Waif-fu" driven combat scene though. The two guys died horribly and fairly quickly, the female fighter the proceeds to take out their hulking killer in a acrobatic displaying with a little pseudo bondage for flavor. Though its not over yet its a little ironic(?) how it went all things considered.

Quote from: Majus;863381Nah, just being silly.

Oh ok. I was wondering. The reviews I've found have ranged from positive to glowing. Its like the movies that top the box office, are hailed by critics, even when awards but I can't stand. Just one of those things and there's no accounting for taste,

Quote from: AsenRG;863386Yeah, so? Do you think that European warriors didn't use fancy names for their techniques:D?

I never said that.    I agree that many martial systems throughout history had naming conventions to differentiate techniques, though I'd argue that "Boar's Tooth" is somewhat tonally different from "Swooping Swallow Startles The Monkey" (*).

(*Note, I haven't read Exalted, as my request for information earlier in the thread demonstrated. I'm just an interested bystander.)

Quote from: AsenRG;863386Damn, now I want to write a Martial Art cascade for Exalted using these names;).

Do it!  

I still maintain that giving powers unwieldy names without having them referenced by characters is odd (obligatory link to the Ong Bak training scene.

Quote from: Nexus;863387I did find it a little funny (as in amusing I'm assuming the poster is honestly rolling) how the rolls played out a typical "Waif-fu" driven combat scene though...  Though its not over yet its a little ironic(?) how it went all things considered.

I didn't follow it for too many pages, but I am shocked (SHOCKED!) that it's gone in that way.  

Quote from: Nexus;863387Oh ok. I was wondering. The reviews I've found have ranged from positive to glowing. Its like the movies that top the box office, are hailed by critics, even when awards but I can't stand. Just one of those things and there's no accounting for taste

I haven't seen any formal reviews, but even the reaction among the communities has seemed rather lukewarm to me, so that's interesting.

Sorry, the joke was a little left field. I was just impressed at how incredibly scathing Christopher Brady had been in his previous comment. The joke (such as it was) was that positively spinning his comment was almost impossible, even with excessive ellipsis.

I'm here all week, try the veal, etc.  

(This post brought to you by "smilies", "quotes" and the letter M).

Quote from: Majus;863389I never said that.    I agree that many martial systems throughout history had naming conventions to differentiate techniques, though I'd argue that "Boar's Tooth" is somewhat tonally different from "Swooping Swallow Startles The Monkey" (*).

(*Note, I haven't read Exalted, as my request for information earlier in the thread demonstrated. I'm just an interested bystander.)

The charm names do have a fairly distinct wuxia/anime martial arts flavor. And being as they aren't in game effects (except when they are) that does seem odd. For me it makes them much harder to remember and the long discussions of how "Owl hoots at mightnight stance" interacts with "Monkey howls at the moon attitude" as opposed to "Stooges Dope slap approach" all the more dense and hard to follow.

QuoteI didn't follow it for too many pages, but I am shocked (SHOCKED!) that it's gone in that way.  

Its a little weird. Like the time when the guy in our that always red haired, drifter loners with a penchant fighting with paired weapons (or as close as the setting and system allowed) finally agreed to randomly roll a characters features and background for a change of pace... and rolled up a red haired drifter that fought with paired swords while we watched him do it.

Never bothered him about his characters again. Clearly some things are Fated.

QuoteI haven't seen any formal reviews, but even the reaction among the communities has seemed rather lukewarm to me, so that's interesting.

Sorry, the joke was a little left field. I was just impressed at how incredibly scathing Christopher Brady had been in his previous comment. The joke (such as it was) was that positively spinning his comment was almost impossible, even with excessive ellipsis.

I'm here all week, try the veal, etc.  

(This post brought to you by "smilies", "quotes" and the letter M).

I may be biased by the rpg.net reaction but even beyond it the reactions have been positive. But I guess most of the people that have it in hand at the moment are Backers or people that cared enough to hunt down "alternate sources" so inclinded to be positive.

Though to be fair, the initial reaction to second edition was extremely positive at first. And, as we know now, that was the work of the devil.

And the warts are starting to show for some, even on TBP.

Looks like there was some data loss at TBP. The combat example had to started again.

You can't fully go by reviews, especially for something that isn't even out yet. Heck, we all know that Exalted 2nd Edition has tons of issues. I can admit that even though I ran a 2-year-long campaign with it that was tons of fun. And rpg.net hates it, right? Well, here's the actual review page for the game: http://index.rpg.net/display-entry-stats.phtml?mainid=37#reviews

So take any sort of review with a grain of salt right now. Until a game is thoroughly put through its paces by the community (and possibly broken/fixed by later supplements), no one will really know fully how it all clicks when all the working parts are working together. I am highly skeptical of the combat system and don't feel the need to go wading through 300 pages of Charms and Sorcery, but it's entirely possible that my concerns will prove exaggerated and the game will move faster than I expect even in bigger fights. I still think it would take more system mastery than I want to acquire to reach that hypothetical point, but we'll see.

I have booked my group to start a long term Ex3 game starting in February next year. We have four old hats (including one mechanical adept and one inept) and one complete newbie, so we should get a good spectrum of reaction.

I am confident that Ex3 will run notably better than Ex2, though I still have concerns about the density of the system in general. I have to say that despite the current shitstorm surrounding Exalted, looking back over my long and positive history with the RPG makes me optimistic that the game will be cool.

Quote from: Skywalker;863572I have booked my group to start a long term Ex3 game starting in February next year. We have four old hats (including one mechanical adept and one inept) and one complete newbie, so we should get a good spectrum of reaction.

I am confident that Ex3 will run notably better than Ex2, though I still have concerns about the density of the system in general. I have to say that despite the current shitstorm surrounding Exalted, looking back over my long and positive history with the RPG makes me optimistic that the game will be cool.

I wish you the best of luck.

Quote from: AsenRG;863350Except I just linked to a post explaining why Initiative isn't "meta", and for the fact that social influence is now more freeform, you have a point;).
If you do indeed want all of the things you listed, Fate is right there.

While I see you've come up with a personal viewpoint that's different the Developers along with, IME, ,most of those that use the system have said its a meta game concept that characters are unaware of beyond a general sense of who's "winning" and "losing" at any given moment. It has little direction connection to what's really happening in the imaginary space of the game world. Like Hit Points Init is largely a pacing mechanism and as vaguely defined though with more direction impact on the action from turn to turn and more fiddly.

 The books itself asserts this and that, in setting, there is no difference between a withering attack and a decisive attack (except when there is) and that players shouldn't "game" Initiative (except when they should). Maybe I'm using the wrong term (it changes so fast and there's so much of it). Maybe disassociated would be a more accurate phrase?

Social Interaction is only more freeform in the sense that there are no turns and specific initiative. Its just as, if not more so mechanically codified as it was in 2nd. Its basically the same system as 2nd just without the ticks and rounds. Not changes I disagree with. Trying to fit social interaction into a turn structure always felt even more artificial and stiff than putting physical  into one. But its not freeform in the sense of just roleplay or even "roll the dice and make stuff up". There are very regulated procedures involved.

Quote from: Majus;863380My eyes glazed over at the example combat, I'm afraid (*the florid writing style didn't help). I don't really see how that combat couldn't have been describing the process of pretty much any other system, but I'm sure it's more apparent in play.

I'm very surprised that the "Tripping Wally Stabs Himself" power names aren't an in-game conceit. For a meta description, they're really unwieldy and also rather genre specific (i.e. for a certain kind of Asian media); I thought the system modelled Homer / Beowulf / etc. as well?

Yeah, I'm really surprised they aren't using the "Sailor Moon Rule."

JG

Quote from: Nexus;863574I wish you the best of luck.

My group is now discussing whether to stick with Atlantis instead. Ex3's release has understandably caused concerns