Quote from: Christopher Brady;862917I would, but it's a personal thing, in Exalted every single major humanoid creature, from Exalt to Gods and Demons and some out and out inhuman monsters has Charms.  And unlike D&D in which each spell doesn't interact with each other, in fact, you can't combine them in any meaningful way, in Exalted they can be.  And worse, they had some unintended effects as written.

Spells don't interact with each other? Since when:D?

Quote from: Nexus;863074I'm beginning to think I've drastically misunderstood the Ex3 combat system. Its one area of the game that getting almost universal positive response (at least that I've seen) and I can't stand it. It feels slow, cumbersome and annoyingly meta game and "disassociated" (if I'm using the term correctly).

But allot of people love it, even a couple of people in my own group so I wonder.

Yeah, I think you might have misunderstood it. One of my players didn't understand it either during the first fight. After that, a few minutes of explaining and demonstration were enough.

Quote from: Snowman0147;863078Did they play it?  No there is a reason I ask that because it may sound good on paper while in practice it is all kinds of bad.

I've run it. Does that count:)?

Quote from: Nexus;863082Each edition seems shaped by whoever griped out the loudest out the last one

To be fair, that's far from exclusive to Exalted;)!

Quote from: Nexus;863128Yeah, the combat system works but I can't find anything else positive to say about it.

Serious question: did you read my review?

Quote from: AsenRG;863184Spells don't interact with each other? Since when:D?

I can't think of a single character using 2 or more spells at the EXACT same time to get a new, often more power, sometimes unintended, effect.

Can you point to me which edition had Clerics or Magic Users use two spells from their own spell list at the exact same time?

Quote from: AsenRG;863184Yeah, I think you might have misunderstood it. One of my players didn't understand it either during the first fight. After that, a few minutes of explaining and demonstration were enough.

Ah, the 'You don't get it' defense.  So explain it to us, please.

Quote from: AsenRG;863184I've run it. Does that count:)?

Once?  Twice?  For a year?  Personally, I'll take someone's 'review' if they've run it regularly, something like once a week for about 90 days before I take them seriously.

Not saying you haven't.  It's just playing three or four times, or even 10, doesn't always give the reviewer the right feel for how it works out.  Not to mention that people seem to think that just because their dice aren't truly random, that should factor into the review.

Quote from: AsenRG;863184To be fair, that's far from exclusive to Exalted;)!

Maybe, but it's been the defining feature of Exalted, as opposed to other games.

Quote from: AsenRG;863184Serious question: did you read my review?

I did, and it didn't change anything for me as far as what I suspected of the combat system. From what I could tell, you didn't throw any serious combats at your players. Which is fine; not every session needs them. But it's those combats where my major reservations come into play.

I'll use an example using my own group. Say you've got five players. Three of them are fairly serious players and will likely have their character sheets and abilities memorized forwards and backwards (as best they can, anyway). The other two are more casual and will most likely need to look something up each time a Charm is used. This group of five starting Solars (with combat abilities ranging from very good to mediocre) faces off against a pack of 4 competent Dragon-Blooded and a bunch of mortal troops. I don't want to get hung up on power levels and exact numbers, so let's just call it a fairly even fight.

Now, here's the question. How long would you honestly expect that fight to take using EX3? Because I have an alternate system on my shelf in Exemplars & Eidolons (soon to be Godbound) that can do it in 10-20 minutes depending on just how descriptive my players and I want to be. There are other systems that could do it in similar times. But from what I've seen from EX3, I'd be shocked if my group could do that same fight in less than an hour given that even 1-on-1 fights can take upwards of 20 rounds if the dice are fickle.

Yeah, i also really do not see what is so great about the "new" combat system. It works more or less like the old ones but split in two...so you now have two seperate things to track, you also have two different things charms can influence (and do so - there are withering only and decisive only charms and everything in between).
The feel of the fights has not really changed. Sure, the first couple of fights with the new system feel different (at least a bit) but some sessions in, you (or at least i) just feel like always with Exalted combat...dice-orgies that last way too long. And i do not even have anything against handful of dice in general.

I think what some of you said is spot on - if you liked Exalted 1e and/or 2e well enough, then you'll likely also get along with (or even love) Ex 3e. If not, then all the rearranging and side-stepping that Ex 3e does will not help you.

Quote from: AsenRG;863184Yeah, I think you might have misunderstood it. One of my players didn't understand it either during the first fight. After that, a few minutes of explaining and demonstration were enough.

In the ensuing time I haven't seen any information that has lead me to believe that I've drastically misunderstood how the system is supposed to work. Its my 180 degree reaction to it that makes me wonder. By most standards, I shoud love it. Its crunchy and tactical and I don't seem speed and brevity as an innate good in a combat system. If the fights are fun they can be long. But this system just isn't fun for me.

QuoteSerious question: did you read my review?

Yep, and many others. Didn't change my view point. Recently I gave the system a shot. It was just like a feared it would be: slow, tedious and overly complex for no reward I could discern. It was the game kind of attrition grind as before except with something new to track that was very meta and jumped around allot during a turn. And this was with fairly simple characters not getting very deep into the pile of charms that interact with combat.

It felt endless and, frankly, dull. So vague I couldn't even really visualize what was happening so it felt like a allot fiddly disconnected dice rolling. On top of that there's allot of baked in assumptions that don't match up with my preferences in combat aesthetics so that didn't happen.

Quote from: Anglachel;863213I think what some of you said is spot on - if you liked Exalted 1e and/or 2e well enough, then you'll likely also get along with (or even love) Ex 3e. If not, then all the rearranging and side-stepping that Ex 3e does will not help you.

Yeah, the rules have a very strong “Preaching to the choir” vibe, specifically targeted to a certain subset of the Exalted fan-base. That's not a bad thing in and of itself but it does mean that those who fall too far outside the box aren't going to “get it”.

And before anyone pulls an Aliassudomo and tells me how stupid I was to expect anything different:1. The talk of "rebuilding from the ground up" did lead you to expect more than another polish job.

and 2. Expecting something similar didn't mean wanting to massively double down on the crunch and complexity.

Or at least you were dreading that, not looking forward to it.

Quote from: Nexus;863229And before anyone pulls an Aliassudomo and tells me how stupid I was to expect anything different:1. The talk of "rebuilding from the ground up" did lead you to expect more than another polish job.

Though I totally sympathise with you, there has also been plenty of warning of what Ex3 ended up like. The result feels very close to the Scrolls of Errata/Ink Monkeys work that seemed to take one step forward and two steps back on most issues with Ex2. And its practically identical to the leaked document.

Quote from: Skywalker;863232Though I totally sympathise with you, there has also been plenty of warning of what Ex3 ended up like. The result feels very close to the Scrolls of Errata/Ink Monkeys work that seemed to take one step forward and two steps back on most issues with Ex2. And its practically identical to the leaked document.

My dread rose substantially when it came out who was going to be in charge of 3rd. But I held out some hope that in working on a "new system" that even the crunch obsessed Ink Monkeys might have reigned it in. They weren't trying to patch a leaky dam this time around. And allot of balloon juice given to idea of "totally rebuilding the system".

But they did stick to their unusual method of fixing problems; throw tons of mechanics at it.

I didn't care about their fluff one way or the other. What I'd read of it felt meh for the most part.

The leak sealed the deal. I never expected that Backer copy (not yet the final product. This thing has more Forms than a DBZ villain) to be very different at all from the leaks.

Hell, they added some more charms. My cynical side almost thinks it was a deliberate "Fuck you" at detractors.

So, no, by the time of the post second leak until the backer copy I wasn't surprised anymore. Just very disappointed and frustrated. The anger came from the OP staff bad attitudes through this little fiasco and the way rpg.net's moderation structure facilitated it.

Cool. My reaction has been similar.

A current combat example on TBP

I've had a playtest pbp thing going on for a while. It can be found here. That's the OOC thread but it can get you to the IC thread.

My thoughts on it so far. I'm glad I started with basic fights with no/very little essence use on my side of things. I don't think I could run this satisfactorily at the table. It's too complex and the rules organization is not very good despite what some TBP posters say.

Ile be doing social interactions and Essence on essence fights next and I kind of dread it.

Just idle musing but maybe they should have gone full on meta for the combat system.  Withering attacks shouldn't have been referred to as "attacks" as mechanically and narrative they're of a roll to determine how much impact your character and advantages (strength, weapon, armor, etc) has on the combat scene and pacing.

Not sure what to call them though, at least something other than "withering". and I agree with idea Initiative might have worked better as Momentum which seems to describe what it actually is better than Initiative a word that already has allot of baggage for most gamers.

I admit that's one of the things about the rules that looses me; that it seems to freely dance back and fourth between in setting and meta, often with an assumption that its obvious when it does so. The "Solars don't know they have charms and charms aren't an in game concept... except when they are."* is something of an example of something that just doesn't click for me. Though I can understand the desire to avoid the other end of the spectrum where every mechanic is in game that characters in the setting could write out their character sheets.

*and if they aren't why stick to the elaborate florid names for them? More practical names related to what they actually do would make it much easier for people like me to remember them.

Well, my campaign has fallen apart before we got to any substantial combat (i.e. not vs. battlegroups or mortals) or social influence. Three of five players didn't really like the setting that much, and didn't really make characters that interacted well with the setting. Then again, if you're in the Frozen North with a whole bunch of ghost vikings, your guy who wants to start the Olympics might not be the best fit. Oh well, it's not for everyone. What we did do worked, and worked pretty well, but I feel like we had just started scratching the surface. We're starting a side game with some different people than the main group. A more in-depth examination of stuff will have to wait until then.

A few simple questions

Quote from: Christopher Brady;863209I can't think of a single character using 2 or more spells at the EXACT same time to get a new, often more power, sometimes unintended, effect.

Can you point to me which edition had Clerics or Magic Users use two spells from their own spell list at the exact same time?

It doesn't need to be "exact same". You can have them continuing from previous time.
Some of the worst abuses from Exalted were with Scene-long charms, too.
As for how spells interact...you've never used Stone to Mud, followed by Mud to Stone while your enemies are in the mud? Seriously ?

QuoteAh, the 'You don't get it' defense.  So explain it to us, please.

I can try, but probably not in the way we explained to my player. Hint, it would require video. Swords wouldn't be amiss, either.
Still, read the explanation I wrote for Nexus.

http://storiescharactersandsystemsinrpgs.blogspot.bg/2015/11/what-does-exalted-3e-combat-system.html

QuoteOnce?  Twice?  For a year?  Personally, I'll take someone's 'review' if they've run it regularly, something like once a week for about 90 days before I take them seriously.

Shrug. With two sessions? More than almost anyone who started playing the leak, was a beta-tester, or was in the development team.

QuoteNot saying you haven't.  It's just playing three or four times, or even 10, doesn't always give the reviewer the right feel for how it works out.  Not to mention that people seem to think that just because their dice aren't truly random, that should factor into the review.

Once a week for 90 days is 12 times, 13 at most, BTW. Obviously 3 more sessions matter.

QuoteMaybe, but it's been the defining feature of Exalted, as opposed to other games.

Exalted, and a few even more popular systems...but this tangent's getting boring:).

Quote from: Brand55;863211I did, and it didn't change anything for me as far as what I suspected of the combat system. From what I could tell, you didn't throw any serious combats at your players. Which is fine; not every session needs them. But it's those combats where my major reservations come into play.

That's funny. The enemy they fought was a Dawn Caste Solar with Supernal Martial Arts. What this means is that my players, together, had less combat-related Charms than her alone, since she had her whole style already.
They just got above average rolls, and managed to start hurting her in the second round;). And then they started talking, and ran because everyone's anima banner was flaring, except the Night's banner. And this is a city with enough Dragon-Blooded present.

QuoteI'll use an example using my own group. Say you've got five players. Three of them are fairly serious players and will likely have their character sheets and abilities memorized forwards and backwards (as best they can, anyway). The other two are more casual and will most likely need to look something up each time a Charm is used. This group of five starting Solars (with combat abilities ranging from very good to mediocre) faces off against a pack of 4 competent Dragon-Blooded and a bunch of mortal troops. I don't want to get hung up on power levels and exact numbers, so let's just call it a fairly even fight.

Now, here's the question. How long would you honestly expect that fight to take using EX3? Because I have an alternate system on my shelf in Exemplars & Eidolons (soon to be Godbound) that can do it in 10-20 minutes depending on just how descriptive my players and I want to be. There are other systems that could do it in similar times. But from what I've seen from EX3, I'd be shocked if my group could do that same fight in less than an hour given that even 1-on-1 fights can take upwards of 20 rounds if the dice are fickle.

I don't know, but my group didn't know their character sheets. The above fight still didn't last that long.
BTW, I like Exemplars and Eidolons;). If you want something like it? Nothing wrong with that. It's just that you don't want the current edition of Exalted, or any other rules-heavy game with discreet powers, for that matter.

And before even the KS for Ex3, my clearly voiced opinion was that the next edition of Exalted should tend towards rules-light. The developers didn't even consider it, for all I know, but I did make my opinion clear.
It's just that I quite like the current edition as it is. I might have preferred a more rules-light approach, but I'm not unhappy as it is.

Quote from: Nexus;863229In the ensuing time I haven't seen any information that has lead me to believe that I've drastically misunderstood how the system is supposed to work. Its my 180 degree reaction to it that makes me wonder. By most standards, I shoud love it. Its crunchy and tactical and I don't seem speed and brevity as an innate good in a combat system. If the fights are fun they can be long. But this system just isn't fun for me.

Then it's possible that Exalted 3e is to you what D&D 4e was for me:).
Seriously, the part in bold? That's what I said about 4e, more than once. I like tactics, I play rules-heavy systems just as readily as rules-light (GURPS 4e is to me the heavy side of rules-medium), I don't mind long fights (I like Legends of the Wulin, and that's much longer).
I will, however, try to explain how I see Ex3, and why I don't see it as a meta-heavy system, as you seem to.

QuoteRecently I gave the system a shot. It was just like a feared it would be: slow, tedious and overly complex for no reward I could discern. It was the game kind of attrition grind as before except with something new to track that was very meta and jumped around allot during a turn. And this was with fairly simple characters not getting very deep into the pile of charms that interact with combat.

It felt endless and, frankly, dull. So vague I couldn't even really visualize what was happening so it felt like a allot fiddly disconnected dice rolling. On top of that there's allot of baked in assumptions that don't match up with my preferences in combat aesthetics so that didn't happen.

Also something I've said about D&D 4e, after we gave it a shot.

QuoteAnd before anyone pulls an Aliassudomo and tells me how stupid I was to expect anything different:1. The talk of "rebuilding from the ground up" did lead you to expect more than another polish job.

and 2. Expecting something similar didn't mean wanting to massively double down on the crunch and complexity.

Or at least you were dreading that, not looking forward to it.

I didn't expect any changes in that direction since we discussed "what would you want in a hypothetical Ex3" thread on TBP, no. In this regard, I was better off than you. You didn't know what you're going to get. I knew more or less what kind of game I'm going to get, and ended up getting more than I expected:D!

Quote from: Nexus;863292Just idle musing but maybe they should have gone full on meta for the combat system.  Withering attacks shouldn't have been referred to as "attacks" as mechanically and narrative they're of a roll to determine how much impact your character and advantages (strength, weapon, armor, etc) has on the combat scene and pacing.

Not sure what to call them though, at least something other than "withering". and I agree with idea Initiative might have worked better as Momentum which seems to describe what it actually is better than Initiative a word that already has allot of baggage for most gamers.

I admit that's one of the things about the rules that looses me; that it seems to freely dance back and fourth between in setting and meta, often with an assumption that its obvious when it does so.

Fine...
First, "withering" is a choice of words we laughed a lot at, since it's funnier when you translate it in Bulgarian.
Second, your main problem with the system, as I see it, is that you can't get over the hurdle of "why is this attack withering, and this one decisive".
The answer is, because the enemy is not static, and can be in a better or worse position.

http://storiescharactersandsystemsinrpgs.blogspot.bg/2015/11/what-does-exalted-3e-combat-system.html

Quote from: AsenRG;863328
That's funny. The enemy they fought was a Dawn Caste Solar with Supernal Martial Arts. What this means is that my players, together, had less combat-related Charms than her alone, since she had her whole style already.
They just got above average rolls, and managed to start hurting her in the second round;). And then they started talking, and ran because everyone's anima banner was flaring, except the Night's banner. And this is a city with enough Dragon-Blooded present.

Yet there was just a single opponent, and from what I understand numbers are extremely important in EX3's combat system. But that wasn't my main point. Running one or even two antagonists at a time doesn't seem to be a huge problem. In fact, I'd say EX3 seems great for small fights. My concern is with large conflicts--the sorts of large melees that should be par for the course with a game like Exalted. That's why my example to you had 8 or 9 Exalted and a bunch of mortal combatants involved. It's the sort of fight where there's a lot to keep track of and momentum can easily swing back and forth depending on tactics and how the dice act up.

Quote from: AsenRG;863328I don't know, but my group didn't know their character sheets. The above fight still didn't last that long.
BTW, I like Exemplars and Eidolons;). If you want something like it? Nothing wrong with that. It's just that you don't want the current edition of Exalted, or any other rules-heavy game with discreet powers, for that matter.

And before even the KS for Ex3, my clearly voiced opinion was that the next edition of Exalted should tend towards rules-light. The developers didn't even consider it, for all I know, but I did make my opinion clear.
It's just that I quite like the current edition as it is. I might have preferred a more rules-light approach, but I'm not unhappy as it is.

I'm fine with rules-heavy and discreet powers, but you're right in that the current edition of Exalted isn't for me. I'd be okay with something somewhere between E&E and Exalted with a few hundred powers/Charms, though I'd want them simplified and shortened for ease of use. Mostly, I'd want a system that moves quickly and cuts down on the record keeping on my end as GM.

But, yeah. All that aside, I'm glad your group is enjoying themselves so far.