Quote from: Mostlyjoe;852086Did they do this totally the wrong way? Yay. But I'll chock this one up to inexperience by the devs.

You don't need direct experience to be able to learn lessons from how other people did it wrong.

I chalk it up to incompetence, plain and simple.

Eh, considering how hard they're defending their stance and actions I don't think they've learned anything. And to be fair, they've been pretty visibly successful so far so time will tell.

Quote from: Mostlyjoe;852086I'm so burned out on the drama I'm done talking about it. Will I run/play it when it drops? Ya. Am I 100% happy with it? Naw. But that's most RPGs. But is it decent enough and fixes some issues with 2E. Yay.

Did they do this totally the wrong way? Yay. But I'll chock this one up to inexperience by the devs.

Its functional enough but it is very complex, IMO and it while it "fixes" some things in 2ed it does so in ways I don't care for. I would its largely a success for its target audience as allot of the discussion I've been has been positive.

Quote from: Mostlyjoe;852086I'm so burned out on the drama I'm done talking about it. Will I run/play it when it drops? Ya. Am I 100% happy with it? Naw. But that's most RPGs. But is it decent enough and fixes some issues with 2E. Yay.

Did they do this totally the wrong way? Yay. But I'll chock this one up to inexperience by the devs.

Inexperience?
This whole project was a strategic blunder somewhere in between invading Russia without winter supplies and producing a Metallica album without any Kirk Hammett solos on it.

JG

I'm pretty positive about the new social system but this post does point out some valid issues with it

Quote from: DeusExBiotica;19357599I don't believe I've gone into it, no.  I'll do so now, but in a somewhat truncated form - I just don't know how to say most of what I have to say without citing line and verse of the leak rules, which I try to avoid.

First off: the core concept of the Social Influence system is that you're not just trying to get someone to take some action ex nihilo.  You need to be working from the basis of what they want.  That usually means intimacies, but can also mean more general things, via the Bribe and Threaten actions.  That core concept is outright brilliant.  It's no surprise to me that so many people are excited about this system working from a seed as great as that - but then, lots of people (myself included) were excited about 2E's now-hated Social Combat, too.  I think that in people's haste, they're overlooking how the system can actually work.

A lot of that is the kind of stuff I've been griping about this whole time.  Ambiguous rules (there are several paragraphs discussing one very specific type of retried action - and really no guidance on whether retrying other actions is even possible or how it would work), sleek-looking mechanical systems which then have these oddly-extensive edge cases (there's a lot of Charm and rules text on an action which has literally no mechanical effect, and a few others which break from the normal Influence rules to just say "and then the GM eyeballs it," rather than using the Intimacies which everything else does), and things which break quickly if they're not used as the writers intended (it is mechanically advantageous to persuade your allies of everything they ever intend to do, and there's no in-setting difference between actions you take on your own and those you're talked into).  And then, there's Intimacy debates.

See, your ability to use Intimacies to resist other Influence is really the key balancing factor of the system - it's what keeps you from just getting talked into selling your husband into slavery the moment you hit 0WP, 2E-style.  But the way they do that tends to be a bit open for interpretation - and the actual listed example has a PC needing to argue their case for Intimacy interpretation to keep from being persuaded to betray their Circle.  Save vs GM, or attack the party.  One can only imagine the hurt feelings if the player and GM do not agree about the outcome of that argument.

I want to love Social Influence.  I honestly believe its core idea has cracked something which no other RPG, not even Weapons of the Gods, ever did when it came to persuasion mechanics.  But sadly, like a lot of brilliantly groundbreaking innovations, the first version has some oversights which I worry will cause a lot of headaches in play.

What is an Intimacy?

Well, when a mummy and daddy love each other very much...

Quote from: Intergalactic Threat;853899What is an Intimacy?

An Intimacy, in Exalted terms, is an aspect of a character's personality codified in mechanical terms. They are divided into Principles (behaviors, beliefs, motivations, etc EX: A vow of Chastity or Keeps Word of Honor) and Ties (connections to more physical things like organizations and people: Devoted Brotherhood or Loves Husband).  There are different levels of Intimacy: Defining, Major and Minor and they can affect the difficulty of using Social Influence on the character.

For example a character might have an Intimacy for his wife (Love) that would make it more difficult say for him to be manipulated into betraying her but also more difficult to talk him out of a reckless attempt to save her if she were in danger. So they can cut both ways.

 A clever manipulator might even be able to use his Tie to his wife by phrasing their attempt in a way that capitalizes on his love and concern for her even if it does not directly relate to her.

Quote from: One Horse Town;853906Well, when a mummy and daddy love each other very much...

They have a Major or even a Defining Love Tie to each other

Sounds like the PDF is only a matter of days away. I have to say that abstaining from most discussions with the fan base over the last couple of years has really helped ensure that I am excited to see the PDF

Quote from: Skywalker;855894Sounds like the PDF is only a matter of days away. I have to say that abstaining from most discussions with the fan base over the last couple of years has really helped ensure that I am excited to see the PDF

Don't see why?  It isn't like they kept their promises.  In fact it appears they made it worst.

The PDF is only a few days from release?

Well, that would explain those 4 horse men that rode down my street this morning

Quote from: Snowman0147;855896Don't see why?  It isn't like they kept their promises.  In fact it appears they made it worst.

I will form my own view once I get the PDF, unburdened by internet opinions that often prove of little help or worth to me. I have no beef with the current design team despite the delay. I also have a lot of love for Exalted as it stands now and, given that 3e can't weaken that, there is only really upside for me with this release.

Quote from: Nexus;855910The PDF is only a few days from release?

Well, that would explain those 4 horse men that rode down my street this morning

It's had one round with CCP and their changes have been addressed. Seems pretty close given other OP KS at the same stage.

Still, even a year is a matter of days The four horsemen don't ride until Far West comes out.

Quote from: Skywalker;855912Still, even a year is a matter of days The four horsemen don't ride until Far West comes out.

The possibility of immanent apocalypse cannot be dismissed.

The Cubs are still in contention for the playoffs.

Quote from: Skywalker;855894Sounds like the PDF is only a matter of days away. I have to say that abstaining from most discussions with the fan base over the last couple of years has really helped ensure that I am excited to see the PDF

It could only help.

JG