Quote from: jhkim;480502Sure, they're all set up here:

http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/vinland/

Not the best organization, but there is at least a lot of material there.

Thanks! Much appreciated.

Here, that's the sort of thing that comes out of these kind of arguments about D&D being [take your pick of offensive stuff here] perpetuating the Crazy ad nauseam :

Quote from: TSR Code of EthicsTSR, Inc., as a publisher of books, games, and game related products, recognizes the social responsibilities that a company such as TSR must assume. TSR has developed this CODE OF ETHICS for use in maintaining good taste, while providing beneficial products within all of its publishing and licensing endeavors.

In developing each of its products, TSR strives to achieve peak entertainment value by providing consumers with a tool for developing social interaction skills and problem-solving capabilities by fostering group cooperation and the desire to learn. Every TSR product is designed to be enjoyed and is not intended to present a style of living for the players of TSR games.

To this end, the company has pledged itself to conscientiously adhere to the following principles:

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Crimes shall not be presented in such ways as to promote distrust of law enforcement agents/agencies or to inspire others with the desire to imitate criminals. Crime should be depicted as a sordid and unpleasant activity. Criminals should not be presented in glamorous circumstances. Player character thieves are constantly encouraged to act towards the common good.

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Thanks Ben.
This should keep me busy for a while.  I take exception in a nearly catagoric fashion.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480500I am not suggesting anything less than Nazis be okay. But we also shouldn't tilt at windmills and look for racism everywhere (especially D&D). That is precisely the kind of thing I am referring to when I say it weakens the meaning of real racism. Do you honestly believe the argument we are having now is a productive one that will lead to less racism in the world? If anything it would be much more productive and a better use of our time to collectively reject the racist stormtrooper (or whatever it was called) D&D game site. Rather than muse about the hidden racial assumptions of orcs. It just feels like we are engaged in endless hairsplitting and semantics.

Don't forget the psychic powers.

I love how one can apparently make assumptions about what a man who's been dead for 40 years was thinking.  Apparently doing this sort of thing to someone who's in front of you is rude, but raising necromantic divinations about him after he's dead is perfectly kosher.

Quote from: Benoist;480517Here, that's the sort of thing that comes out of these kind of arguments about D&D being [take your pick of offensive stuff here] perpetuating the Crazy ad nauseam :

Interesting the relevant bit is :

12: MATTERS OF RACE

Human and other non-monster character races and nationalities should not be depicted as inferior to other races. All races and nationalities shall be fairly portrayed.

hehehe how do they think the poor kender feel about being labelled kleptomaniacs. Or how do you think the halflings felt about not being allowed to use magic because they weren't sophisticated enough....

I must ensure my next setting breaks all of these rules.

Going back to my earlier post. I also always treated my prof's comments with a degree of disdain but now as I reflect on things I think he had a point. He is basically just saying that you need to be honest with yourself. He was of course a strongly left wing, tree hugging commie type, I mean I was doing a joint anthropology-geography degree at UCL with additional course at SOAS and you don't get much more right on and PC than that anywhere on the planet.

I do think that by exposing racism even the small stuff, and examining your own prejudices you emerge enlightened if not improved.

And I come from a soft nancy southern town in the UK so our racist gangs are rubbish but I will face em down none the less. Tyrany , flourish , do nothing etc ...

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480500I am not suggesting anything less than Nazis be okay. But we also shouldn't tilt at windmills and look for racism everywhere (especially D&D). That is precisely the kind of thing I am referring to when I say it weakens the meaning of real racism. Do you honestly believe the argument we are having now is a productive one that will lead to less racism in the world? If anything it would be much more productive and a better use of our time to collectively reject the racist stormtrooper (or whatever it was called) D&D game site. Rather than muse about the hidden racial assumptions of orcs. It just feels like we are engaged in endless hairsplitting and semantics.

I'm not sure about this conversation in particular, but I think that acknowledging the racism in fantasy can potentially lead to people considering new possibilities for fantasy.  Basically, I feel like an awful lot of RPG fantasy is Tolkien-derivative to the point where the attempted innovation is about switching out elves for a similar good race and switching out orcs for a similar evil race.  There is a rut here, and I think questioning the typical assumptions about race - including Adam Dray's ideas - is a good thing.  

I would like to see more fantasy worlds that don't put race at the forefront in a Tolkien-esque manner - or at least mix up how they view race.  I think that seeing more of these could help some people think more broadly about race.  

I talked about this some in an LJ post I had, Race in RPGs and the Alternatives.  A concrete example of the sort of things I would like to see is would be What I Would Do With the Drow.

Quote from: jibbajibba;480533I do think that by exposing racism even the small stuff, and examining your own prejudices you emerge enlightened if not improved.

The problem for me arises when you are looking so hard you are uncovering it where it isn't really there. I also think you can believe yourself to be enlightened but actually just hypersensitive. If I was constantly policing myself for racial sensitivity, I don't know that me and my wife could have an honest conversation.

QuoteAnd I come from a soft nancy southern town in the UK so our racist gangs are rubbish but I will face em down none the less. Tyrany , flourish , do nothing etc ...

This is a lot less foolhardy than I imagined from your initial post (if "soft nancy" carries the same meaning in the UK as the US). I was picturing aryan nation or something.

Quote from: jhkim;480535I'm not sure about this conversation in particular, but I think that acknowledging the racism in fantasy can potentially lead to people considering new possibilities for fantasy.  Basically, I feel like an awful lot of RPG fantasy is Tolkien-derivative to the point where the attempted innovation is about switching out elves for a similar good race and switching out orcs for a similar evil race.  There is a rut here, and I think questioning the typical assumptions about race - including Adam Dray's ideas - is a good thing.  

I would agree fantasy tends toward stagnation at times. But I am honestly not interested in fantasy with a message. For the same reason I don't care what James Cameron thinks or Frank Miller think about politics and society, I don't care what my fantasy writers think.

Am totally fine with questioning core assumptions to produce more interesting and varied fantasy settings. I just don't want to see that produce a string of novels aimed at "educating" me. Also there are writers out there that took issue with Tolkein and Lewis and spun off that (The Golden Compass was basically a repudiation of Narnia). However I find in those cases the polical/philosphical/social message detracts from my enjoyment of the book as a reader-----not because I agree or disagree with the writer; because that isn't what I am interested in getting out of novels.

But you will get no argument from me that fantasy writers could stretch the genre a bit more.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480538Am totally fine with questioning core assumptions to produce more interesting and varied fantasy settings. I just don't want to see that produce a string of novels aimed at "educating" me. Also there are writers out there that took issue with Tolkein and Lewis and spun off that (The Golden Compass was basically a repudiation of Narnia). However I find in those cases the polical/philosphical/social message detracts from my enjoyment of the book as a reader-----not because I agree or disagree with the writer; because that isn't what I am interested in getting out of novels.

But you will get no argument from me that fantasy writers could stretch the genre a bit more.

I don't think baving a message correlates much with being heavy-handed.  Some writers are just plain better than others.  While Tolkien was opposed to allegory, I think C.S. Lewis was at least as interested in message as Phillip Pullman.  I'm not very fond of Pullman either - but I liked Charles Saunders' Imaro novels, most of Ursula Le Guin, and a lot of Tamora Pierce and Neil Gaiman - all of whom reacted against many fantasy tropes of their time, and are interested in the message sent.

Quote from: jhkim;480541I don't think baving a message correlates much with being heavy-handed.  Some writers are just plain better than others.  While Tolkien was opposed to allegory, I think C.S. Lewis was at least as interested in message as Phillip Pullman.  I'm not very fond of Pullman either - but I liked Charles Saunders' Imaro novels, most of Ursula Le Guin, and a lot of Tamora Pierce and Neil Gaiman - all of whom reacted against many fantasy tropes of their time, and are interested in the message sent.

I realize my preference is probably in the minority, but I just don't read books for the message. Usually the message is clear to me, but not something I am interested in. Same with movies. I guess I am just biased against novelists and film-makers as a source of moral inspiration. I feel like it is kind of a cheap way to make a point.

EDIT: I agree both Pullman and Lewis were equally interested in making a point. In both cases, for me, it detracted from the story. I've also never been much of a Le Guin or Gaiman fan. Mind you, since most writers seem to have an underlying point, I won't let that stand in my way of enjoying a good book.

Quote from: jhkim;480535I would like to see more fantasy worlds that don't put race at the forefront in a Tolkien-esque manner - or at least mix up how they view race.

The problem is, you're bringing your own viewpoints about race to discuss ME.  Tolkien's Elf/Orc structure has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with Good/Evil.  Tolkien may or not have been racist, but the thematic structure of his works comes consciously and unconsciously from him being a card-carrying catholic, a topic he discussed at great length.

Quote from: jhkim;480535I think that seeing more of these could help some people think more broadly about race.

So you want to be the anti-Stormfront.  Good intentions, but you're merely putting a tool to use, just like they are.  The good things that come from your result says good things about you, not about your tool.

Quote from: CRKrueger;480546The problem is, you're bringing your own viewpoints about race to discuss ME.  Tolkien's Elf/Orc structure has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with Good/Evil.  Tolkien may or not have been racist, but the thematic structure of his works comes consciously and unconsciously from him being a card-carrying catholic, a topic he discussed at great length.

I think I would just leave this as agree-to-disagree.  There are endless discussions of Tolkien and his works.  In my opinion, he did not write his stories as intentional allegory of race, war, or Catholicism, but I think that his subconscious feelings about all of these worked their way in.

Quote from: jhkim;480547I think I would just leave this as agree-to-disagree.  There are endless discussions of Tolkien and his works.  In my opinion, he did not write his stories as intentional allegory of race, war, or Catholicism, but I think that his subconscious feelings about all of these worked their way in.

Explain to me how in hell you know what Tolkien was "subconsciously" thinking?

Bonus points for doing so without employing the biographical fallacy.

Quote from: jhkim;480547I think I would just leave this as agree-to-disagree.  There are endless discussions of Tolkien and his works.  In my opinion, he did not write his stories as intentional allegory of race, war, or Catholicism, but I think that his subconscious feelings about all of these worked their way in.

As far as the Catholicism goes, Tolkien was pretty much of the opinion that his religion at first unconsciously informed his work and then consciously informed it (confirmed through letters).

As far as the rest goes, suggesting that someone else is influenced by racism even if they don't acknowledge it or realize it is pretty much the SOP for someone who sees racism in things, isn't it?  

Quote from: J Arcane;480550Explain to me how in hell you know what Tolkien was "subconsciously" thinking?

Bonus points for doing so without employing the biographical fallacy.

My two points here are:

1) I know the stories the he published well.  
2) I know he claimed that he did not consciously engage in symbolism or allegory.  

I am choosing to take #2 as a truthful statement.  If that is true, the symbolism and allegory in his works must have been subconscious.  I will allow that there is also the option that he lied about consciously engaging in symbolism.