Quote from: jibbajibba;480472It's been my experience that people find it very difficult to co-opt what is front and centre and dealt with in plain sight.

Not really. I would think a game where racism is actually played out would be quite easy to co-opt. THough to be honest I have never had any personal experience with someone trying to co-opt my D&D game toward racist ends. It just isn't something I've ever encountered.

QuoteI am one of those annoying people who will step in front of a racist abusing an indian family at a bus station and give him a mothful or face down a gang of racists looking for trouble (and I admit a bit of my just lieks a good scrap).

I would expect any decent person to challenge racism when it is so explicitly displayed and it is not insanely dangerous to do so. So I won't give you any commendations for this announcement. That is just the right thing to do.

The whole part of challinging a gang of racists is just stupidity. If the racist gangs where you live are anything like the ones where I live, facing them down would be a pretty fatal (or at least life altering) decision. And this is coming from someone who likes a good fight as much as the next guy.

In my experience though, these kinds of obvious racist events are pretty rare to actually witness. Most of the racism I see is much more subtle than that and a lot harder to pin down. Like I said, my wife is asian and I've been with her for over 8 years. There was only one instance when someone was blatanlty racist toward her that we can recall (and the woman who did it was like 75 years old).

QuoteWe are all racist (as one of my professors used to remind me). We all make judgements about people based on racial and cultural stereo-types. It's all about recognising it and dealing with it.

See I disagree with this. I think racism, as most people use the term, is much more severe and intense than just walking around with a few stereotypes and generalizations. And I think the whole "everyone is racism" thing actually diminishes the significance of the term. So when true and hurtful racism does emerge and people try to draw attention to it, they are often ignored (i.e. oh, he is just being PC, etc).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480477See I disagree with this. I think racism, as most people use the term, is much more severe and intense than just walking around with a few stereotypes and generalizations. And I think the whole "everyone is racism" thing actually diminishes the significance of the term. So when true and hurtful racism does emerge and people try to draw attention to it, they are often ignored (i.e. oh, he is just being PC, etc).

This statement is wisdom.  White guilt does nothing to help the issue.

I can't refuse Gunnery Sgt. Ermey, Kyle.  So enough with the politically charged crap, back to gaming.  We know at this point where everyone stands I think.

Quote from: CRKrueger;480482I can't refuse Gunnery Sgt. Ermey, Kyle.  So enough with the politically charged crap, back to gaming.  We know at this point where everyone stands I think.

I think we do, but at the same time I'm genuinely surprised to see who stands where, sometimes. I think that laying those things bare for everyone to see is actually useful, because the alternative is to just let it foster and grow like a huge ugly weed that bears poisonous fruit. That was my point with the Churchill poster. So turning away and game, sure, I'm all for that, but just doing that allows the bullshit to go on and on and on until RPGs are remade to conform to the standards of a bunch of fringe lunatics who can't deal with their own projections on the game. That sucks.

Quote from: Benoist;480484...until RPGs are remade to conform to the standards of a bunch of fringe lunatics who can't deal with their own projections on the game. That sucks.

(Only 22 posts! Come on we can do it!)

Quote from: Benoist;480484I think we do, but at the same time I'm genuinely surprised to see who stands where, sometimes. I think that laying those things bare for everyone to see is actually useful, because the alternative is to just let it foster and grow like a huge ugly weed that bears poisonous fruit. That was my point with the Churchill poster. So turning away and game, sure, I'm all for that, but just doing that allows the bullshit to go on and on and on until RPGs are remade to conform to the standards of a bunch of fringe lunatics who can't deal with their own projections on the game. That sucks.

Yeah, I can understand holding the line against bullshit, but are we gonna take this to 1500 posts?  2000?

Quote from: CRKrueger;480487Yeah, I can understand holding the line against bullshit, but are we gonna take this to 1500 posts?  2000?

I have no idea.

Quote from: CRKrueger;480487Yeah, I can understand holding the line against bullshit, but are we gonna take this to 1500 posts?  2000?

You called me a porcist.  You're the one keeping this going.

Quote from: jhkimI certainly do use cultural influences. What I don't do is pretend that the cultural influences and/or myths that I use are completely free of prejudice.

Quote from: Sigmund;480471I'm not pretending I'm not being racist.. I'm actually not being racist. When I fight orcs in D&D, I'm not thinking of them as black people and engaging in pretend genocide or colonialism. When I borrow real world cultural trappings it's not with the goal of illustrating that real world culture's inferiority or evilness. If you are, that's not D&D's fault. Some advice, don't try to say that if someone says or thinks they are not being racist, they are pretending.

I apologize in that I did not mean to imply anything about your intent. However, I am claiming that there are clear racist themes in the original Teutonic and Norse myths as well as fantasy such as Robert E. Howard and Edgar Rice Burroughs - and more moderate but still racist themes in Tolkien.  If you claim that those are not there, then I say that you are wrong - although I am not saying that you are lying or pretending.  Again, sorry about the lying/pretending implication.  

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480477I think racism, as most people use the term, is much more severe and intense than just walking around with a few stereotypes and generalizations. And I think the whole "everyone is racism" thing actually diminishes the significance of the term. So when true and hurtful racism does emerge and people try to draw attention to it, they are often ignored (i.e. oh, he is just being PC, etc).

I think I agree with you that this is an issue.  There should be a stronger term for the beliefs of the Nazis and the KKK.  However, I don't want to label anything less than Nazis and the KKK as "non-racist" and therefore perfectly OK.  

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480447I just don't think racism is embedded in the orc concept. Especially as they are pertain to modern D&D and gaming. And I don't believe people using orcs as an evil race contributes to racism. Like I said, if someone wants to draw racist lessons from D&D's cosmology I would have a problem. But I would also believe they are drawing the wrong conlcusions. It is a fantasy game.

You tell me; what do orcs have to do with Racism in your opinion?

There are many different versions of orcs - especially when you get into how they are implemented in different people's games.  I would start with Tolkien since that is where D&D's orcs come from.  Like I said, hobbits, dwarves, elves, and men were identified with Western and Northern Europeans - while orcs were identified with Eastern Europeans and Near Easterners - mongol types.  I think Tolkien was on the level when he said he didn't intend any symbolism, but I think that some things subconsciously shine through quite clearly.  His mythic clash was a war between races with exaggerated traits, not a war between rival kings or political powers.  That is not specific racial hatred, but it does glorify a worldview of seeing some people and races as inherently superior or inferior to others.  Fantasies like this don't make people into KKK members any more than playing Cowboys and Indians makes people into genocidal anti-natives, but it isn't a purely good influence.

Quote from: CRKrueger;480340How can you miss the phrase bolded and underlined "we choose to bring to it"?  Oh yeah, because it wouldn't fit your soundbite driveby reply.

No, it's because no one is arguing how it gets there except you.  You have done a marvellous job of knocking that strawman down repeatedly, but no one here has proposed that RPGs in general or D&D specifically is inherently racist.

 

QuoteAh, ok, so I guess D&D according to you is not inherently racist, it just has something about it, compared to other RPG systems that makes it easy for Stormfront to use as a tool for racist propaganda?  How convenient that this position lets you say the OP is a crank, yet still carry his banner as to the original point.  You're way better at sophistry then the Stormfront guys, I'll give you that.  

Speaking of sophistry, I will give you ten points to find the quote where I or anyone but you has been arguing about D&D exclusively.  Alternately, you could respond to the point you have been dancing around:  If RPGs are no easier than boardgames for indroducing or expressing these concepts, why does Stormfront use RPGs rather than boardgames?

In more general terms, are you making the argument that every day situations/attitudes/incidents are just as easy to incorporate into boardgames as RPGs?

QuoteNo, but the term green is in fact the term green or even green with "bluish-tinge".  Oh yeah, that's right, you weren't quoting an actual old school D&D book, as again, that fact doesn't suit your argument.

The fact is, it doesn't actually suit your argument.  The drift from Tolkien's original imagining is more than a little noticeable.  At this point, it seems like your whole argument is something about anything with green colouration is no different than anything else with green colouration.  Again, I ask, you aren't hanging your whole argument on orcs having green skin, right?

QuoteWow, eyes, ears, snout, antennae, arms, legs, hands (with weird fingers granted).  Man, how fucking alien, I'm amazed I could even recognize it as a life form.  Seriously, non-human is non-human.

In that vein, then, pointy eared Elves are indistinguishable from Rodians also?  I mean, non-human is non-human.

QuoteRestating someone's opinion to alternate purpose, man, you really have become pathetic haven't you? Genetics is a better science for Stormfront to misapply and generate lies with then, say Botany.  Is Genetics racist?  RPGs are no different.

And yet, in neither case is anyone here arguing that racism is inherent to the fields.
 

QuoteThe fact that you're relying on pathetic, bad-faith arguments to try and win the point is proof enough that it's not a strawman.  Unless you've descended to Glenn Beck level and are simply on about it because I had the temerity to question an idiot wearing the team jersey.

Ah, so it's back to left vs right again because the actual points are a bit to difficult to address?  Excellent.  At least I know you aren't arguing this based on any kind of real interest in the topic.

QuoteAha, so there are inroads to be made, eh?  Apparently some analysis is needed to determine why orcs are the bad guys in D&D?  Maybe some examination of our white, western colonial past is in order?  Didn't you call the OP a crank, or was that just to get the heat off your back after a ton of people in the thread agreed with me in that post you still haven't and are never going to answer?

You're right, I am not going to answer it.  It may not have occurred to you yet, but I'm not Adam Dray.  I'm really not even a good proxy for him.  If you want to address his points specifically, you should take it up with him.  If you want to address my points, then explain again where I said D&D is inherently racist.  I'm a bit slow these days, but we can start with that one.

QuoteThe only tool I need is logic, which tells me that RPGs are as much of a problem as genetics is.  Educating people so they aren't subject to easily disproved lies and propaganda is the solution.

Which lie is that?  The lie that RPGs aren't used to promote racist ideas?

QuoteHowever, when it comes to discussion, I never thought the end justifies the means.  If someone's making a flawed argument, I've never jumped to someone's aid simply because they shared my leanings in any respect.  I try very hard not to construct "gotcha" arguments or drive-by soundbites.  I consider those the tools of the enemy, those who would obscure truth to gain advantage (and those people exist on both side of any aisle).

Except, you have been carefully making a counter argument for something no one has proposed or defended.  You have been insisting that everyone is trying to say that D&D is inherently racist, and as I have mentioned several times, you are the only person on this thread that has brought up that possibility.  I mean, you very thoroughly went through the original post, but you entirely missed the part where he was condemning the OSR's narrow focus on hack 'n slash as the problem?

QuoteSimply put, you're using those tools now, which causes me to think less of you.  Sorry bro, that's just the way it is.

Honestly, I don't care what you think of me.  I would like you to address some of the arguments that have been actually raised, though, instead of the ones you made up.

Quote from: jhkim;480494There are many different versions of orcs - especially when you get into how they are implemented in different people's games.  I would start with Tolkien since that is where D&D's orcs come from.  Like I said, hobbits, dwarves, elves, and men were identified with Western and Northern Europeans - while orcs were identified with Eastern Europeans and Near Easterners - mongol types.  I think Tolkien was on the level when he said he didn't intend any symbolism, but I think that some things subconsciously shine through quite clearly.  His mythic clash was a war between races with exaggerated traits, not a war between rival kings or political powers.  That is not specific racial hatred, but it does glorify a worldview of seeing some people and races as inherently superior or inferior to others.  Fantasies like this don't make people into KKK members any more than playing Cowboys and Indians makes people into genocidal anti-natives, but it isn't a purely good influence.

When it gets to the point where you are dealing with hidden or subconscious elements, I don't really get concerned. Sure I can accept that Tolkein was drawing on things in his environment and time that influenced the final imagery. I don't think we can so that means his orcs are inherently racist symbols or "problematic". However had he engaged in the kind of clear racism you find in the writings of say Lovecraft, then I agree that part of it needs to be weeded out. But growing up in the 80s as I did, reading Tolkein, race was the furthest thing from my mind when I got to the part about orcs.

Again with the whole clash of good and evil thing, I just don't see how that is problematic. Especially since I think most people would see it as a spiritual struggle, and not something to be interpreted through the lens of race. I really don't see Middle Earth as glorifying a racial worldview. I see it as a fictional setting where good and evil are real and therefore you have monstrous races that are inherently bad. To me it is just a product of the kind of setting he was going for, with a global good v. evil conflict.

Quote from: jhkim;480494I think I agree with you that this is an issue.  There should be a stronger term for the beliefs of the Nazis and the KKK.  However, I don't want to label anything less than Nazis and the KKK as "non-racist" and therefore perfectly OK.  
.

I am not suggesting anything less than Nazis be okay. But we also shouldn't tilt at windmills and look for racism everywhere (especially D&D). That is precisely the kind of thing I am referring to when I say it weakens the meaning of real racism. Do you honestly believe the argument we are having now is a productive one that will lead to less racism in the world? If anything it would be much more productive and a better use of our time to collectively reject the racist stormtrooper (or whatever it was called) D&D game site. Rather than muse about the hidden racial assumptions of orcs. It just feels like we are engaged in endless hairsplitting and semantics.

Quote from: boulet;480474

Quote from: jhkimSo, for example, I ran my Vinland campaign for a while that used a mix of Icelandic myths along with a few Algonquian and Iroquoian myths - along with some colonial American myths like the Headless Horseman and the New Jersey Devil.

Wow, that's really relevant to my setting creation process right now. Would you have notes about this campaign somewhere on the web?

Sure, they're all set up here:

http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/vinland/

Not the best organization, but there is at least a lot of material there.

Quote from: jhkim;480502Sure, they're all set up here:

http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/vinland/

Not the best organization, but there is at least a lot of material there.

That is pretty cool.

What is Darkshire.net?

Quote from: StormBringer;480497Which lie is that?  The lie that RPGs aren't used to promote racist ideas?

Ba dum bum.  Are you here all week?  

So Stormfront uses a perversion of RPGs to promote racist ideas, and...what, exactly?  What's your point, simply that they do so?

So Stormfront uses misrepresentation of the science of genetics to promote racist ideas, so...what exactly?  What's your point, simply that they do so?

What arguments are you trying to make about RPGs then if I am missing what you are trying to say?