Quote from: jibbajibba;480434No I totally understand what a monster is but don't get me wrong my people are just liek your people they will villify a half-ogre because they think he will eat them, but the key is in the work Think right.

Most people in my worlds have no fucking idea about how orcs breed or if they have young or if they are intelligent the same is true of ogres and hobgoblins and everyone else. They live in towns surrounded by other people just like them so they fear that which they do not understand. that is why I like to highlight the fact that that which is different to us is not always evil and monstrous and trying to eat us.

Now I never said you can't do it that way. I just said that you need to spare it a thought when you are building your world and don't be suprised if someone you don't like, with views you disagree with, takes that monstrousness and co-opts it for their own ends.

The way you design settings souds perfectly reasonable and I am sure your campaigns are great fun. But why should Sigmund have to worry about someone co-opting his campaign material? Even if he decides to publish it, why is it his responsibility if some jerks decide to imbue his setting with racist meanings that he never intended? Even though your settings more closely resemble our own world, I am sure someone could find a way to mine them for racist indoctrination if they really wanted to. I think if you go down this road, you will find yourself constantly editing the material to guard against any potential misuse or misreading.

Have you eliminated every shred of racial distinction in your game? Do the core races have any ability modifiers?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480425And that is why I find the whole search for potentially "problematic" things in the game stifling.

Also to comment on the airbrushing thing, I think that whole approach of sheltering viewers from bad habits doesn't work in practice. My father was a pretty ardent pacifist. I wasn't allowed to view violent or R-rated movies growing up, and I wasn't allowed to have any kind of militant toys (including GI Joe). I was also told violence is bad etc. Yet I became a huge fan of action films, shows like 24, and I got into boxing. It is a little like the "just say no" thing. All the kids in my grade grew up on Just Say No, and most of them ended experimenting with drugs (largely because drugs turned out to be less icky and sinister than they were led to believe by the just say no campaign). In short, it oversimplified the issue. It almost generates a backlash.

I think this is very much in line with exactly what I said.  In mentioning Breakfast at Tiffany's, I was talking about racism rather than violence, but the same things apply.  Personally, I let my son watch whatever violent movies he is comfortable with.  However, what I don't do is to tell him "This violence is purely good!  There is nothing wrong with it!"  I also love violent movies, but when I talk to him I'll tell him exactly what I feel - that while I can ignore it in suspension of disbelief, action movie heroes often do things I would be strongly against in real life.  

Regarding oversimplifying the issue - I think it is far more oversimplifying to say "Orcs have nothing whatsoever to do with racism and that's that."

Quote from: One Horse Town;480354If i can just interject in a semi-official manner briefly...

While personally, i think this thread was a bust from the start, there are obviously some of you who seem rather personally invested in it. So much so, that you're reporting peoples' posts for being mean to you or your views.

Sorry, but that sort of stuff has never flown here. Defend yourself in the thread if you must, but you'll not see any sanctions from the staff here unless someone is posting something potentially illegal or if a feud is starting to disrupt multiple threads for no good reason over a length of time.

Quote from: David R;480355Who are these people ? The only posters who are in the thick of it are Stormbringer, John Kim, CK, Frank Trollman, John Morrow, jibba2 and Sigmund. None of them strike me as the kind who would report posts esp knowing how this site works.
 
Regards,
David R

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;480356

Who said that? Who the fuck reported posts for being mean to him? Who's the slimy little communist shit, twinkle-toed cocksucker down here who just signed his own death warrant? Nobody, huh? The fairy fucking godmother said it. Out-fucking-standing! I will DM you all until you fucking die! I'll DM you until your assholes are sucking buttermilk!

If you ladies leave my game session, if you survive character generation, you will be a weapon. You will be a minister of death praying for war. But until that day you are pukes. You are the lowest form of life in Greyhawk. You are not even human fucking beings. You are nothing but unorganized grabastic pieces of amphibian shit! You will not like me. But the more you hate me the more you will learn. I am hard but I am fair. There is no racial bigotry here. I do not look down on niggers, kikes, wops or greasers. Here you are all equally worthless. And my orders from Gygax are to weed out all non-hackers who do not pack the gear to play in my beloved milieu. Do you maggots understand that?

Quote from: Sigmund;480399And who the fuck is reporting posts? That's fucking bullshit. Pussy.

Quote from: Benoist;480408And who the fuck reports posts on this thread? Can't take the heat? Then move on. Making appeals of "boo hoo hoo people are mean to me?" That's RPGnet turf right there. It's bullshit. Grow a pair.

Just wanted to add to the chorus of only a pussy who cannot successfully defend their ideas, reports posts.

EDIT: Oh, and Kyle wins this thread. I will not be able to read his posts now without hearing the voice of R. Lee Ermy.

Quote from: jhkim;480440I think this is very much in line with exactly what I said.  In mentioning Breakfast at Tiffany's, I was talking about racism rather than violence, but the same things apply.  Personally, I let my son watch whatever violent movies he is comfortable with.  However, what I don't do is to tell him "This violence is purely good!  There is nothing wrong with it!"  I also love violent movies, but when I talk to him I'll tell him exactly what I feel - that while I can ignore it in suspension of disbelief, action movie heroes often do things I would be strongly against in real life.  

I think this perfectly reasonable.

QuoteRegarding oversimplifying the issue - I think it is far more oversimplifying to say "Orcs have nothing whatsoever to do with racism and that's that."

I just don't think racism is embedded in the orc concept. Especially as they are pertain to modern D&D and gaming. And I don't believe people using orcs as an evil race contributes to racism. Like I said, if someone wants to draw racist lessons from D&D's cosmology I would have a problem. But I would also believe they are drawing the wrong conlcusions. It is a fantasy game.

You tell me; what do orcs have to do with Racism in your opinion?

Quote from: jhkim;480440I think this is very much in line with exactly what I said.  In mentioning Breakfast at Tiffany's, I was talking about racism rather than violence, but the same things apply.  Personally, I let my son watch whatever violent movies he is comfortable with.  However, what I don't do is to tell him "This violence is purely good!  There is nothing wrong with it!"  I also love violent movies, but when I talk to him I'll tell him exactly what I feel - that while I can ignore it in suspension of disbelief, action movie heroes often do things I would be strongly against in real life.  

Regarding oversimplifying the issue - I think it is far more oversimplifying to say "Orcs have nothing whatsoever to do with racism and that's that."

I think you're wrong. I say there is nothing inherent in D&D's idea of orcs, or any other monster, that is racist in their presentation. Or, for that matter, in D&D's xp system.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480439The way you design settings souds perfectly reasonable and I am sure your campaigns are great fun. But why should Sigmund have to worry about someone co-opting his campaign material? Even if he decides to publish it, why is it his responsibility if some jerks decide to imbue his setting with racist meanings that he never intended? Even though your settings more closely resemble our own world, I am sure someone could find a way to mine them for racist indoctrination if they really wanted to. I think if you go down this road, you will find yourself constantly editing the material to guard against any potential misuse or misreading.

Have you eliminated every shred of racial distinction in your game? Do the core races have any ability modifiers?

No you misunderstand me
My setting rife with racism I just acknowledge it in the setting and expose it.

And again Sigmund is fine to have his evil orcs and all that and as he says he doesn't mind if some lilly-livered, commie sympathiser twists it to make a point about how D&D is an expression of Collonial Imperialism that even Winston Churchill would blush at

Quote from: Sigmund;480414I think you're framing it this way to try to "win". I think Tolkien's orcs were written with cultural influences. Would I call that "racist"? No, I wouldn't. Cultural influences are used to give our imaginary cultures consistency and identity, and I bet even you do that in your games, it's a great device, why not. However, I do not believe cultural influences = racist influences, even for the bad guys.

I certainly do use cultural influences.  What I don't do is pretend that the cultural influences and/or myths that I use are completely free of prejudice.  Historical myths and archetypes from medieval and ancient times are rife with racist ideas - as well as plenty of other historical values that I don't necessarily share.  Drawing from most fictional, mythic, and/or cultural sources from prior to 1950 - and quite a few later ones as well - is likely to include some racism.  

What I will do is often shake things up by putting new twists or mixings of the myths that don't quite fit with the original.  So, for example, I ran my Vinland campaign for a while that used a mix of Icelandic myths along with a few Algonquian and Iroquoian myths - along with some colonial American myths like the Headless Horseman and the New Jersey Devil.  

When I last ran a Tolkien based game, it shook up the events of the story by an alternate plotline that also changed views of where the real danger lay - cf. All Shall Love Me and Despair....

Quote from: jibbajibba;480455No you misunderstand me
My setting rife with racism I just acknowledge it in the setting and expose it.

And again Sigmund is fine to have his evil orcs and all that and as he says he doesn't mind if some lilly-livered, commie sympathiser twists it to make a point about how D&D is an expression of Collonial Imperialism that even Winston Churchill would blush at

People re gonna do what they're gonna do, I have no control over that, and I consequently have no responsibility for it either. What other folks do is on them.

Quote from: jibbajibba;480455No you misunderstand me
My setting rife with racism I just acknowledge it in the setting and expose it.

I get what you are saying. But my point is that someone could argue (though I wouldn't) that acting out actual racism between the groups in your setting is just as "problematic". I guess I am not sure what "Exposing" the racism of your own setting achieves.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;480356

Who said that? Who the fuck reported posts for being mean to him? Who's the slimy little communist shit, twinkle-toed cocksucker down here who just signed his own death warrant? Nobody, huh? The fairy fucking godmother said it. Out-fucking-standing! I will DM you all until you fucking die! I'll DM you until your assholes are sucking buttermilk!

If you ladies leave my game session, if you survive character generation, you will be a weapon. You will be a minister of death praying for war. But until that day you are pukes. You are the lowest form of life in Greyhawk. You are not even human fucking beings. You are nothing but unorganized grabastic pieces of amphibian shit! You will not like me. But the more you hate me the more you will learn. I am hard but I am fair. There is no racial bigotry here. I do not look down on niggers, kikes, wops or greasers. Here you are all equally worthless. And my orders from Gygax are to weed out all non-hackers who do not pack the gear to play in my beloved milieu. Do you maggots understand that?

This is pretty much the only other post this thread needs.

Quote from: jhkim;480456I certainly do use cultural influences.  What I don't do is pretend that the cultural influences and/or myths that I use are completely free of prejudice.  Historical myths and archetypes from medieval and ancient times are rife with racist ideas - as well as plenty of other historical values that I don't necessarily share.  Drawing from most fictional, mythic, and/or cultural sources from prior to 1950 - and quite a few later ones as well - is likely to include some racism.  

What I will do is often shake things up by putting new twists or mixings of the myths that don't quite fit with the original.  So, for example, I ran my Vinland campaign for a while that used a mix of Icelandic myths along with a few Algonquian and Iroquoian myths - along with some colonial American myths like the Headless Horseman and the New Jersey Devil.  

When I last ran a Tolkien based game, it shook up the events of the story by an alternate plotline that also changed views of where the real danger lay - cf. All Shall Love Me and Despair....

Well what you're doing is on you. I'm not pretending I'm not being racist.. I'm actually not being racist. When I fight orcs in D&D, I'm not thinking of them as black people and engaging in pretend genocide or colonialism. When I borrow real world cultural trappings it's not with the goal of illustrating that real world culture's inferiority or evilness. If you are, that's not D&D's fault. Some advice, don't try to say that if someone says or thinks they are not being racist, they are pretending. It makes you you seem like an elitist dick, and I don't think you are. You don't know me nearly well enough to have any insight as to whether I'm pretending or not. I take you at your word, I'd like the same courtesy.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480465I get what you are saying. But my point is that someone could argue (though I wouldn't) that acting out actual racism between the groups in your setting is just as "problematic". I guess I am not sure what "Exposing" the racism of your own setting achieves.

It's been my experience that people find it very difficult to co-opt what is front and centre and dealt with in plain sight.

I am one of those annoying people who will step in front of a racist abusing an indian family at a bus station and give him a mothful or face down a gang of racists looking for trouble (and I admit a bit of my just lieks a good scrap). We are all racist (as one of my professors used to remind me). We all make judgements about people based on racial and cultural stereo-types. It's all about recognising it and dealing with it.

Quote from: jibbajibba;480472We are all racist (as one of my professors used to remind me). We all make judgements about people based on racial and cultural stereo-types. It's all about recognising it and dealing with it.

So, you're a racist, but since you acknowledge your racism, then it is OK?

That is some elitist crap right there.

Quote from: jhkim;480456So, for example, I ran my Vinland campaign for a while that used a mix of Icelandic myths along with a few Algonquian and Iroquoian myths - along with some colonial American myths like the Headless Horseman and the New Jersey Devil.[/url].

Wow, that's really relevant to my setting creation process right now. Would you have notes about this campaign somewhere on the web?

Quote from: jibbajibba;480472We are all racist (as one of my professors used to remind me). We all make judgements about people based on racial and cultural stereo-types. It's all about recognising it and dealing with it.

Racism is doctrinal.  Your professor was wrong.