Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480392Except these aren't proper races. That is one prolem with the logic. The other is, even if we treat them as such, just because the settings include fictional races with physical and mental differences from one another, that doesn't automatically lead to the conclusion that such distinctions exist  between people of different races in the real world. What you are basically saying is, because people who are already racist, choose to see something of their own world view in the default D&D setting material, this material is therefore problematic. Yes, people can use these things to make terrible arguments if they want to. That doesn't mean their arguments are correct or that we should stop playing games with evil orcs.

I am sorry, but making generalizations about fictional races is hardly problematic in my view. There is plenty of real world racism to worry about out there. However people being prejudiced against Orcs isn't a real genuine concern. If you feel it leads people down the dark path fine, don't use it in your game. But I've never seen this result in someone deciding to hate black people or making broad generalizations about asians.

You mean, they can make an analogy between D&D and their racist views? okay. Why should that concern me?

Um ... I never said that the setting material was problematic just that it contains tropes that could easily be mapped to real world racist ideology.  

Likewise I didn't say you should be concerned by it, just indicating that you can't claim that racists are adding a load of stuff to D&D that isn't in the source material or equate D&D to Chess in this regard.

The stuff is in the source material and its being co-opted by racists.

That is all I am saying.

Oh and technically 'race' is a pretty slippery term. A black guy in New York might have a closer genetic mapping to a Chinese American that lives in New York than he does to a black guy in Somalia. Skin colour is only one genetic marker.
So really Race in our world isn't a real term (you could call it a socio-political construct if you were being pretensious). You know what they say .... There's No one as Irish as Barry O'bama no one as Irish as Barry O'B.....

Quote from: StormBringer;480315So, you are arguing the converse, then?  The games cannot possibly have anything to do with it?

Of course not, the games are inanimate, unthinking objects. The real question you're asking is, do we think EGG was racist or reflecting racist attitudes from fiction authors, and my answer is no.

QuoteI guess the better question is, if the game cannot possibly be connected in any way, why aren't they using Chess, or Monopoly, or Candyland?

As has been shown, they are.

And who the fuck is reporting posts? That's fucking bullshit. Pussy.

Quote from: jibbajibba;480394Um ... I never said that the setting material was problematic just that it contains tropes that could easily be mapped to real world racist ideology.  

I don't know about easily. But sure, no one here is arguing these themes and characteristics can't be used toward those ends. I think we are just saying that isn't the natural outcome of them. Just as it isn't the natural outcome of a game of dragonlance for people to embrace a morality centered around evil or neutrality because those alignments are legitimated by the setting.

QuoteLikewise I didn't say you should be concerned by it, just indicating that you can't claim that racists are adding a load of stuff to D&D that isn't in the source material or equate D&D to Chess in this regard.

I think what they are doing with D&D is honestly the same as drawing an analogy between chess and race wars. They are definitely putting their own assumptions into the game. The kind of ideology these people trade in isn't embedded in the game any more than demon worship or idol worship is embedded in the game. You can point to some lose comparisons. You can say well D&D has many gods so its only natural for polytheists to use it as a tool of indocrination, but I don't think that is the case.

QuoteThe stuff is in the source material and its being co-opted by racists.

That is all I am saying.

Okay. I don't think this tactic is yielding them much success. And I think them trying to put a racist spin on D&D cosmology is simply faulty logic on their part.

QuoteOh and technically 'race' is a pretty slippery term. A black guy in New York might have a closer genetic mapping to a Chinese American that lives in New York than he does to a black guy in Somalia. Skin colour is only one genetic marker.

Yes, I know about this debate as well. I understand it. But we are talking about the term race as its used in everyday speech and how it is used by white supremacists. The last thing we need is to start debating the merits of Race as a real category on this thread.

QuoteSo really Race in our world isn't a real term (you could call it a socio-political construct if you were being pretensious). You know what they say .... There's No one as Irish as Barry O'bama no one as Irish as Barry O'B.....

It is a term, and one whose meaning has changed over time and seems to vary from discipline to discpline. It is still broadly in use. But again, I think getting into this issue would just take us even further away from RPGs (and we are already getting pretty far from that topic).

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;480316While you lot masturbate furiously over your copies of the collected works of Ayn Rand, Thomas Friedman, Noam Chomsky, Sartre and Andrea Dworkin, desperately claiming some connection between the contemporaneous dialectic of the dominant paradigm and halberd rules, we'll be gaming on, motherfuckers.

Kyle, are you really such a moron that you need to drag out this stupid argument again?  Here's a fucking clue:  I can post on the Internet, play RPGs, and even masturbate without them being mutually exclusive.  I'm in two regular gaming groups and one irregular one, as well as attending many conventions and other gamer gatherings.  

Quote from: CRKrueger;480342Simple questions.

Is the description of orcs in D&D racist?
Were they constructed to consciously or unconsciously represent non-whites?

Yes or no?

In Tolkien, I would say the hobbits, elves, and men are unconsciously representative of Western Europeans - while the orcs and dark races are unconsciously representative Eastern Europeans and Near Easterners - "Mongol types" (their opponents in WWI and WWII).  D&D did not copy some of the specific cues that Tolkien gives, but orcs still have those associations.  

Are they racist?  I think you're trying for a simple binary here, when what I'm saying is that things have different degrees of racist influences.  Yes, orcs are slightly racist in the same sense that Breakfast at Tiffany's is racist.

Quote from: StormBringer;480330Aside from you bringing it up repeatedly, who here has said D&D is inherently racist?

In the article in the OP, Dray says, "So it all stinks to me of a kind of privileged, colonial, expansionist, genocidal viewpoint that makes my stomach turn. "

The context of that quote is that the way the xp rewards are designed combined with the alignment system that justifies "killing" orc tribes is what is being referred to.

Quote from: StormBringer;480338Exactly.  Because there aren't those elements in Candyland. Therefore...

...it's only possible in the first place because of the nature of RPGs.

But you will continue to notice that no one is supporting the idea that racism is inherent to D&D.  I mean, you can give a serial murderer a knife, or you can give them a whiffle bat.  Either way, they are going to find a way to murder someone.  But the one with the knife will get there first.

I skimmed a post or two.  Stormfront appears to be the sophisticated bigot's hangout on the web.  They actually seemed to have a pretty good handle on rules balance with... AD&D? 3.x?  4e?  I wasn't honestly 100% sure what rules they were referring to in the link provided earlier.

I don't agree. It would be possible in any game that contains orcs, RPG or not.

Well, there's so much good and bad on here with the last few posts it's kind of pointless to quote left and right. I'm just flabbergasted that some people - some gamers! - would use guilt by association like this.

You may say it isn't, but it is: if a dimwit project racist ideas on D&D, that's because D&D is enabling the racists in the first place. Pig-faced orcs are obviously racist baits, while Rodians obviously aren't. Etc. I bet you're the kind of guys who are reading the LOTR and find racist, Freudian slips and all these sorts of things too - or maybe you will in a few weeks by extrapolation on this shit here.

That's pretty much the same level of garbage anyway.

And who the fuck reports posts on this thread? Can't take the heat? Then move on. Making appeals of "boo hoo hoo people are mean to me?" That's RPGnet turf right there. It's bullshit. Grow a pair.

Quote from: jhkim;480402Are they racist?  I think you're trying for a simple binary here, when what I'm saying is that things have different degrees of racist influences.  Yes, orcs are slightly racist in the same sense that Breakfast at Tiffany's is racist.

Yellowface is blatantly offensive to most asians these days. Orcs are not obviously offensive to most people. I can see the argument that orcs are kind of racist (though I don't agree with it). But I don't believe they rise anywhere near yellow or black face.

Quote from: jibbajibba;480394Um ... I never said that the setting material was problematic just that it contains tropes that could easily be mapped to real world racist ideology.  

Likewise I didn't say you should be concerned by it, just indicating that you can't claim that racists are adding a load of stuff to D&D that isn't in the source material or equate D&D to Chess in this regard.

The stuff is in the source material and its being co-opted by racists.

That is all I am saying.

Oh and technically 'race' is a pretty slippery term. A black guy in New York might have a closer genetic mapping to a Chinese American that lives in New York than he does to a black guy in Somalia. Skin colour is only one genetic marker.
So really Race in our world isn't a real term (you could call it a socio-political construct if you were being pretensious). You know what they say .... There's No one as Irish as Barry O'bama no one as Irish as Barry O'B.....

Whether or not they are adding "a load of stuff" is a strawman. All they have to add is their own racism and a bit of imagination. The game has loads of stuff already in it, but what it doesn't have is a racist point of view. That is brought entirely by the player. This is shown by the vast number of people who have played the game for decades without any problems of racism or moral difficulty, myself among them.

Edit: It's also shown by the fact you can just look at the game and see the lack of racism. It's imaginary, it doesn't even call attention to any one monster, orcs included, as being any more heinous than any other. Plus the fact that we can all choose to include orcs in our individual games that are "good", redeemable, fully involved in "civilised" societies, etc. shows that the game's components can be reworked and twisted all sorts of ways without the game itself presenting such notions. The fact is, it's Dray himself who brought all his racist baggage to the table, and he has only himself to blame for his angst. He would be better served by stopping his quest to find things to blame outside himself, and deal with his own racist shortcomings directly.

My chess set is mahogany vs. white oak.  I guess i'm a cowboy supremacist?

We oughta stop playing Eurogames, too, because they're racist.  I mean, shit, that boring-as-fuck spreadsheet-on-a-board Puerto Rico uses BROWN worker tokens!

People will read whatever they want into anything they come across.  Maybe it's a case of too much reading and not enough playing.

Quote from: jhkim;480402Kyle, are you really such a moron that you need to drag out this stupid argument again?  Here's a fucking clue:  I can post on the Internet, play RPGs, and even masturbate without them being mutually exclusive.  I'm in two regular gaming groups and one irregular one, as well as attending many conventions and other gamer gatherings.  


In Tolkien, I would say the hobbits, elves, and men are unconsciously representative of Western Europeans - while the orcs and dark races are unconsciously representative Eastern Europeans and Near Easterners - "Mongol types" (their opponents in WWI and WWII).  D&D did not copy some of the specific cues that Tolkien gives, but orcs still have those associations.  

Are they racist?  I think you're trying for a simple binary here, when what I'm saying is that things have different degrees of racist influences.  Yes, orcs are slightly racist in the same sense that Breakfast at Tiffany's is racist.

I think you're framing it this way to try to "win". I think Tolkien's orcs were written with cultural influences. Would I call that "racist"? No, I wouldn't. Cultural influences are used to give our imaginary cultures consistency and identity, and I bet even you do that in your games, it's a great device, why not. However, I do not believe cultural influences = racist influences, even for the bad guys.

Quote from: Vmerc@;480412My chess set is mahogany vs. white oak.  I guess i'm a cowboy supremacist?

Was there any doubt?

Quote from: Benoist;480408Well, there's so much good and bad on here with the last few posts it's kind of pointless to quote left and right. I'm just flabbergasted that some people - some gamers! - would use guilt by association like this.
.

Maybe I am an optimist, but my reading is that people are mostly just arguing over the finer meaning of specific statements rather than embracing the OPs original statement. For example, when I said that this kind of stuff isn't a product of gaming. A few people took issue with my literal statement (which I clarified later) but also added they didn't agree with the OP. So I think there is a lot of arguing for arguments sake here, but that doesn't mean everyone on the other side is saying we need to get rid of these tropes from D&D because it is somehow polluting us. I think a few have just been arguing in favor of their prefered approach to alignment and races, and didn't intend to endorse the OPs position (in the same way that D&D doesn't endorse racism

Quote from: Sigmund;480414I think you're framing it this way to try to "win". I think Tolkien's orcs were written with cultural influences. Would I call that "racist"? No, I wouldn't. Cultural influences are used to give our imaginary cultures consistency and identity, and I bet even you do that in your games, it's a great device, why not. However, I do not believe cultural influences = racist influences, even for the bad guys.

I think this is an important distiction. Drawing on these like real world history for flavor doesn't mean the writer is advancing racism. He may be drawing on the theme of eastern invaders, because that is a theme in the history of the west. It is something that clicks in peoples' heads. That doesn't mean he is making a comment on mongol culture or eastern european culture.