The best part about this is that the only fantasy race I think was truly designed as a "racial" stereotype was hobbits.

If i can just interject in a semi-official manner briefly...

While personally, i think this thread was a bust from the start, there are obviously some of you who seem rather personally invested in it. So much so, that you're reporting peoples' posts for being mean to you or your views.

Sorry, but that sort of stuff has never flown here. Defend yourself in the thread if you must, but you'll not see any sanctions from the staff here unless someone is posting something potentially illegal or if a feud is starting to disrupt multiple threads for no good reason over a length of time.

Quote from: One Horse Town;480354So much so, that you're reporting peoples' posts for being mean to you or your views.

Sorry, but that sort of stuff has never flown here. Defend yourself in the thread if you must, but you'll not see any sanctions from the staff here unless someone is posting something potentially illegal or if a feud is starting to disrupt multiple threads for no good reason over a length of time.

Who are these people ? The only posters who are in the thick of it are Stormbringer, John Kim, CK, Frank Trollman, John Morrow, jibba2 and Sigmund. None of them strike me as the kind who would report posts esp knowing how this site works.

Edit: And is it any wonder I think kyle is probably one of the coolest motherfuckers on this site.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: One Horse Town;480354you're reporting peoples' posts for being mean to you or your views.

Who said that? Who the fuck reported posts for being mean to him? Who's the slimy little communist shit, twinkle-toed cocksucker down here who just signed his own death warrant? Nobody, huh? The fairy fucking godmother said it. Out-fucking-standing! I will DM you all until you fucking die! I'll DM you until your assholes are sucking buttermilk!

If you ladies leave my game session, if you survive character generation, you will be a weapon. You will be a minister of death praying for war. But until that day you are pukes. You are the lowest form of life in Greyhawk. You are not even human fucking beings. You are nothing but unorganized grabastic pieces of amphibian shit! You will not like me. But the more you hate me the more you will learn. I am hard but I am fair. There is no racial bigotry here. I do not look down on niggers, kikes, wops or greasers. Here you are all equally worthless. And my orders from Gygax are to weed out all non-hackers who do not pack the gear to play in my beloved milieu. Do you maggots understand that?

Oh wow, you managed to find a hatchet job online, Morrow.

Did you actually read it this time?

Quote from: FrankTrollman;480291And that point is still wrong. There is nothing unnatural about the Stormfronters using D&D as a recruiting tool, because they don't have to change a single thing about the game itself when they pervert it into a recruiting tool. All of the elements that they stress are elements that exist in the game as written.

I never said it was unatural. I said their use of the game doesn't naturally follow from it. Big difference. There is nothing inherently racist about D&D. These guys are just projecting their own ideology onto the setting.

QuoteThey make much over the fact that some races are better than others and some races are good and others evil. That is basically their whole argument, so what makes D&D an "unnatural" thing for them to use?

Because as others pointed out they could just as easily have made an argument for white supremacy using chess. Their interpretation of the game is wildly innacurate and rooted in their own distorted view of reality, not in the game itself.

QuoteOr to put it another way: when they made a racist version of Doom where you shot ethnic minorities, they had to change a considerable amount of code. When they make games of Dungeons and Dragons to promote racial separation and the murder of other races, what exactly do they have to change?

-Frank

Not having played in their games I don't know what they would have changed. I am still unclear whether they are playing a version of D&D where orcs are explicitly linked to black people somehow or if they play D&D and say "look it is just like we've been talking about". Either way the racism isn't embedded in the game. These people are interpreting the game that way.

Quote from: David R;480355Who are these people ? The only posters who are in the thick of it are Stormbringer, John Kim, CK, Frank Trollman, John Morrow, jibba2 and Sigmund. None of them strike me as the kind who would report posts esp knowing how this site works.

Edit: And is it any wonder I think kyle is probably one of the coolest motherfuckers on this site.

Regards,
David R

It was probably someone who quit the thread pages ago or something.

Quote from: David R;480355Edit: And is it any wonder I think kyle is probably one of the coolest motherfuckers on this site.

Regards,
David R

Kyle has totally owned the thread, indeed.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480359It was probably someone who quit the thread pages ago or something.

Maybe.

(I still I owe you a reply. Maybe I'll start a thread or wait for Storm's thread. I haven't forgotten but why prolong a clusterfuck with another diversion)

Regards,
David R

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480358I never said it was unatural. I said their use of the game doesn't naturally follow from it. Big difference. There is nothing inherently racist about D&D. These guys are just projecting their own ideology onto the setting.



Because as others pointed out they could just as easily have made an argument for white supremacy using chess. Their interpretation of the game is wildly innacurate and rooted in their own distorted view of reality, not in the game itself.


Not having played in their games I don't know what they would have changed. I am still unclear whether they are playing a version of D&D where orcs are explicitly linked to black people somehow or if they play D&D and say "look it is just like we've been talking about". Either way the racism isn't embedded in the game. These people are interpreting the game that way.

Really why do the White pieces always win when you play?

Their view of the game is not inaccurate. You yourself have claimed that in your games orcs might be irredeemibly evil and its okay to kill them because they are evil.

They don't need to interpret that they just need to say Orcs are like black people in America.

So whilst they are using the game for their own purposes and whilst they are adding a layer of mapping to teh real world that doesn't exist they are not adding anything to the game that does not exist in the game.

Quote from: jibbajibba;480372Really why do the White pieces always win when you play?

No but most people I play with go with the "white goes first rule".

QuoteTheir view of the game is not inaccurate. You yourself have claimed that in your games orcs might be irredeemibly evil and its okay to kill them because they are evil.

No I didn't say that is how my games are run. I said I've played in such games before and have no moral problem with games being run this way. The issue of innacuracy isn't their belief that D&D can be played with irredeemably evil orcs who need to be killed. The innacuracy is drawing any connection between that and white supremacy/christian identity BS. Just because D&D supports settings where evil needs to be destroyed that doesn't naturally lead one to racist conclusions. You have to bring those into the room yourself and then draw the lines connecting that belief system to the D&D cosmology.

QuoteThey don't need to interpret that they just need to say Orcs are like black people in America.

Yes it is. They are directly tying orcs to black people and minorities, which is no where present in the PHB or Monster Manual. The books simply don't align with their racist views.

QuoteSo whilst they are using the game for their own purposes and whilst they are adding a layer of mapping to teh real world that doesn't exist they are not adding anything to the game that does not exist in the game.

Not having seen their games, and still being unclear on whether they simply use it as a model to say "look it is similar to what we believe" or inject settings with blatantly racist characteristics, I can't say whether this is the case or not. But even if all they are doing is interpreting D&D canon in their own racist ways, that doesn't mean the problem here is D&D and its core assumptions. There are going to be lots of books, movies, settings, etc that they can use to support their beliefs. That doesn't mean those things naturally lead one to racist conclusions. Nor does it mean those things are problematic. Especially when your average D&D player can probably show this idiots where their anologies fall apart.

If you play D&D and it makes you a racist, you are doing it wrong. This is probably one of the few genuine examples of badwrongfun.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480375No but most people I play with go with the "white goes first rule".



No I didn't say that is how my games are run. I said I've played in such games before and have no moral problem with games being run this way. The issue of innacuracy isn't their belief that D&D can be played with irredeemably evil orcs who need to be killed. The innacuracy is drawing any connection between that and white supremacy/christian identity BS. Just because D&D supports settings where evil needs to be destroyed that doesn't naturally lead one to racist conclusions. You have to bring those into the room yourself and then draw the lines connecting that belief system to the D&D cosmology.

Yes it is. They are directly tying orcs to black people and minorities, which is no where present in the PHB or Monster Manual. The books simply don't align with their racist views.

Not having seen their games, and still being unclear on whether they simply use it as a model to say "look it is similar to what we believe" or inject settings with blatantly racist characteristics, I can't say whether this is the case or not. But even if all they are doing is interpreting D&D canon in their own racist ways, that doesn't mean the problem here is D&D and its core assumptions. There are going to be lots of books, movies, settings, etc that they can use to support their beliefs. That doesn't mean those things naturally lead one to racist conclusions. Nor does it mean those things are problematic. Especially when your average D&D player can probably show this idiots where their anologies fall apart.

If you play D&D and it makes you a racist, you are doing it wrong. This is probably one of the few genuine examples of badwrongfun.

That is one of the reasons when I proposed that if you make orcs intelligent and gave them free will then you probably can't make them evil by default without a lot of thought about the why.

The TRUTH is that there is a break between the game and real life. But if your game has racial inferiority or Racial Purity or any number of themes that are pretty common in fantasy and Scifi then it's easy to co-opt for other purposes.

I can't say that playing D&D with those sorts of themes makes it badwrongfun because you guys have just spent a 1000 posts saying playing D&D with some of those tropes is absolutely fine.

I can say that choosing to co-opt the game for that purpose is wrong however. On this we would agree.

Quote from: jibbajibba;480381The TRUTH is that there is a break between the game and real life. But if your game has racial inferiority or Racial Purity or any number of themes that are pretty common in fantasy and Scifi then it's easy to co-opt for other purposes.

Except the doesn't have quite the same meaning here, an orc is a monster, not a proper PC race in most versions of D&D. And I really don't think racial inferiority and purity are accurate descriptions of such settings. And Race as it is used in gaming is not the same thing as race in reality.

QuoteI can't say that playing D&D with those sorts of themes makes it badwrongfun because you guys have just spent a 1000 posts saying playing D&D with some of those tropes is absolutely fine.

No we didn't. We never said playing D&D with explictly racist themes was fine. We said playing D&D with inherently evil orcs (a species that doesn't exist in reality) is fine. If someone wants to use that as an analogy for their own warped views of race, or if they want to make orcs the black people, I would have a serious problem with that.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480384Except the doesn't have quite the same meaning here, an orc is a monster, not a proper PC race in most versions of D&D. And I really don't think racial inferiority and purity are accurate descriptions of such settings. And Race as it is used in gaming is not the same thing as race in reality.



No we didn't. We never said playing D&D with explictly racist themes was fine. We said playing D&D with inherently evil orcs (a species that doesn't exist in reality) is fine. If someone wants to use that as an analogy for their own warped views of race, or if they want to make orcs the black people, I would have a serious problem with that.

You are missing the Racist logical step.

Purity is a real issue as If Orcs are elves that were corrupted then they are impure by definition.
If you build a setting were some races are inherrently evil, or inferior or whatever then you are drawing a line that says in this game races are different and their race determines a number of features about them. Orcs are brutish and not very bright. They are evil and will attack you if given a chance. Hobbits are lazy and eat too much, but they are pretty reasonable and liek a natter, etc etc ....
That is stuff we all do. It is not playing D&D with explictly racist themes. It is not mapping D&D races to real world races. it does not make you a racist (except againt orcs obviously). Whist these are actually species not races this is exactly what racists do in the real world. They draw generalisations about different races and then use them to characterise that race in a negative way.

Now the racist guy can make the step from that to impose their own mapping to the real world. They don't have to warp the game world or play in a racist way or do anything except that mapping piece.

Quote from: jibbajibba;480389You are missing the Racist logical step.

If you build a setting were some races are inherrently evil, or inferior or whatever then you are drawing a line that says in this game races are different and their race determines a number of features about them. Orcs are brutish and not very bright. They are evil and will attack you if given a chance. Hobbits are lazy and eat too much, but they are pretty reasonable and liek a natter, etc etc ....

Except these aren't proper races. That is one prolem with the logic. The other is, even if we treat them as such, just because the settings include fictional races with physical and mental differences from one another, that doesn't automatically lead to the conclusion that such distinctions exist  between people of different races in the real world. What you are basically saying is, because people who are already racist, choose to see something of their own world view in the default D&D setting material, this material is therefore problematic. Yes, people can use these things to make terrible arguments if they want to. That doesn't mean their arguments are correct or that we should stop playing games with evil orcs.

QuoteThat is stuff we all do. It is not playing D&D with explictly racist themes. It is not mapping D&D races to real world races. it does not make you a racist (except againt orcs obviously). Whist these are actually species not races this is exactly what racists do in the real world. They draw generalisations about different races and then use them to characterise that race in a negative way.

I am sorry, but making generalizations about fictional races is hardly problematic in my view. There is plenty of real world racism to worry about out there. However people being prejudiced against Orcs isn't a real genuine concern. If you feel it leads people down the dark path fine, don't use it in your game. But I've never seen this result in someone deciding to hate black people or making broad generalizations about asians.

QuoteNow the racist guy can make the step from that to impose their own mapping to the real world. They don't have to warp the game world or play in a racist way or do anything except that mapping piece.

You mean, they can make an analogy between D&D and their racist views? okay. Why should that concern me?