Quote from: StormBringer;480315So, you are arguing the converse, then?  The games cannot possibly have anything to do with it?

Correct.  The game has absolutely nothing to do with it.  The game is as responsible for racism as the science of genetics is.  No one claims the science of genetics is in and of itself racist, because when actually used, it disproves most racist theories, it's when the science is purposely misrepresented through outright lies that it is used for racist purposes.  RPGs are perverted in the same way, the racism is not inherent in their design, unless you're going to claim that since most RPGs are created by White Male Westerners they are inherently racist.

Quote from: StormBringer;480315I guess the better question is, if the game cannot possibly be connected in any way, why aren't they using Chess, or Monopoly, or Candyland?

Chess, Monopoly or Candyland do not stimulate the power of imagination the same way a RPG can.  They are not meant to create an imaginative world which can carry whatever nobility or perversion we choose to bring to it.  However, the sheer power of a tool does not in and of itself devise intent.  The nuclear weapon has no more inherent racism then does a sword.

Quote from: StormBringer;480315Primarily?  Popularity.  I mean, that is pretty obvious, isn't it?

So D&D is a more inherently racist RPG because more people play it?  Seriously?  So then the AR platform is the most racist form of rifle because if a redneck shoots a black guy with a rifle, it will most likely be an AR derivative?  

Quote from: StormBringer;480315Besides, what cultural stereotype would you say Vrusk could be associated with?

Extremely logical creatures, centered around commercial ventures, their identity is strongly bound to the company they work for to the point where they give their company first before their own name?  A racist would probably try to go "Japanese", not realizing in his stupidity that Japanese is not a race.  But that's the problem with everything Stormfront does, it's idiocy and perverted misapplication of ideas.  

Quote from: StormBringer;480315How about Rodians?  I think the difficulties using those games is pretty self evident.

So a green-skinned long-snouted Rodian is obviously a different species where racism cannot apply, but a green-skinned pig-faced orc can easily stand in for ?  

The entire Stormfront D&D argument rests on one item only - half-orcs.  Stormfront uses half-orcs, which have a penalty to intelligence to claim that D&D thus proves that idea that black people can be overall less intelligent then whites even though there are smart black people.  In other words, a half-orc with max intelligence is still real smart, just not an 18, the same as black people.

The claim that this defines D&D as an inherently racist tool is about as logical as the Stormfront argument itself.

If a human being was capable of reproducing with an australopithecine, then due to genetics, you could probably expect the offspring to be stronger and less smart then the human norm.  The key lie that Stormfront is basing the comparison on and that for some reason a whole lot of otherwise intelligent people in this thread are missing is:

Black people are not Australopithecines!

As a result, using genetics to claim that black people are less intelligent based on an analogy of the genetics of Australopithecines is false.

People seem to having a problem with this so let me make another false analogy clear.

Black people are not Orcs!

As a result, using D&D to claim that black people are less intelligent based on an analogy of the racial stats of Half-Orcs is false.

If a Stormfront member was smart enough to actually construct a false argument about racism using the book Beloved would that make Toni Morrison a racist, or the period piece novel an inherently racist tool?  Ummm, NO.

I want to try summarizing a bit again.  

Lots of works have minor bits of prejudice in them.  For example, Breakfast at Tiffany's is a great film, and it is not at all a racist tract like Birth of a Nation.  However, Mickey Rooney as the buck-toothed near-sighted Japanese guy makes me cringe, because I think it is racist.  Is this a reason to ban or edit Breakfast at Tiffany's?  Hell, no, in my opinion.  Likewise, I have no objections to playing games set in the worlds of Robert E. Howard, H.P. Lovecraft, or Edgar Rice Burroughs, even though all of them were blatantly racist and often included such themes in their stories.  

I don't think that games with racial themes necessarily have to be "fixed" any more than books and movies have to be edited or banned.  However, I also don't want to say that there are no problematic themes whatsoever in fantasy races - or especially, that if something is fantasy that therefore it can't possibly be racist.  

Quote from: John Morrow;480268I'd honestly be as fine with the heroes in a movie doing that so long as they were defined as irredeemable creatures of Evil and the heroes treated it like a grim necessity rather than a good time.  I see it as little different than killing zombies (which have not only been depicted as babies and children but also as having sentience -- e.g., the zombies in The Return of the Living Dead, that included one that requests more paramedics from the radio dispatcher so he could eat their brains).

On the other hand, I was troubled by James Bond, in Goldeneye, shooting Russian police officers who were just doing their job in order to escape a police station.

I think there is a sliding scale of how human the characters seem, and thus how problematic it is to moralize and/or glorify killing them.  One can feel sympathy even for non-sentient creatures like dogs, and have moral arguments that killing a dog - even a dangerous one - is to be avoided morally.  Sadly, as you note, simply putting uniforms on people makes some people consider them less human and more justifiable targets for killing.  Zombies for the most part come across as non-sentient - and are unable to reproduce or create, it seems.  Even among zombies, though, there is room for sympathy.  Romero's Land of the Dead was centered on zombie sentience and the evil of people exploiting them, and some of his earlier films hinted at that as well.  In Dawn of the Dead, the raiders who took joy in chopping up zombies in the mall came across as quite  unsympathetic.  Orcs have societies, can carry on conversations, reproduce, and even interbreed with humans.  Thus, I think they are closer on the sliding scale towards "problematic to slaughter".  

Quote from: CRKrueger;480289They can make that point from any game that includes a racial or species modifier to anything.  I guess WEG Star Wars is racist then because Wookies get a bonus to strength.

Chess is a good metaphor for white supremacy too, see there are these pawns, which are really niggers...  it's idiotic.

The strength of a role-playing game is its imaginative power.  It's a tool, nothing more.  I care what RPG Stormfront uses to spread their filth about as much as I care about what paper they use when they print their newsletters.

Do you really want to argue that it is complete crazy talk to even associate Star Wars with racism?  I think there is a fair argument that there can be racist ideas, even in Star Wars.  

Quote from: CRKrueger;480324Correct.  The game has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Ok...

QuoteChess, Monopoly or Candyland do not stimulate the power of imagination the same way a RPG can.  They are not meant to create an imaginative world which can carry whatever nobility or perversion we choose to bring to it.

Wait, you just said the game has absolutely nothing to do with it.

QuoteSo D&D is a more inherently racist RPG because more people play it?  Seriously?

Aside from you bringing it up repeatedly, who here has said D&D is inherently racist?

QuoteSo a green-skinned long-snouted Rodian is obviously a different species where racism cannot apply, but a green-skinned pig-faced orc can easily stand in for ?  

"squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant  eyes... ...degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least  lovely Mongol-types"
"Sallow" is not a synonym for "green".

Or are you saying that Rodians are every bit as close to appearing human as Orcs?  I mean, you do realize that Rodians share absolutely no characteristics with pretty much any living creature on Earth, whereas orcs are depicted as porcine.  You know, 'pig-like'.  As in filthy, smelly, disgusting, etc.  Like these guys:



They are pretty much humans with boar's heads.  Aside from the long snout, in fact, there is absolutely nothing else about Orcs that is pig-like.

Rodians, on the other hand:


Your whole argument isn't predicated on just the green skin thing, right?  Because it is almost like you hadn't noticed that Rodians have gigantic purple eyes and ear stalks on top of their heads.

QuoteThe entire Stormfront D&D argument rests on one item only - half-orcs.

Wait, what...?

QuoteThe claim that this defines D&D as an inherently racist tool is...

...really only being harped on by you, at this point.  No one is claiming an inherent racism, just that the tools are more readily available than in something like, say, Candyland.

Quote from: CRKruegerChess, Monopoly or Candyland do not stimulate the power of imagination the same way a RPG can.

See?  Even CRKreuger understands RPGs are used instead of board games for a reason.
 

QuoteThe key lie that Stormfront is basing the comparison on and that for some reason a whole lot of otherwise intelligent people in this thread are missing is:

Black people are not Australopithecines!

As a result, using genetics to claim that black people are less intelligent based on an analogy of the genetics of Australopithecines is false.

Because there is one and only one Australopithecus species.

Oh, wait, there isn't.  Oh, and look at that, it means "southern ape of Africa".  It's almost as if they didn't just pick that out at random or something.  As though they weren't talking about Australopithecus in general, but A. africanus for very, very specific reasons.

QuoteBlack people are not Orcs!

You have a keen grasp of the obvious.  Why does Stormfront use them in that manner, then?  Why don't they use Derro, or Vegepygmys, or Meazels?  Or any one of several dozen other humanoids?

See, you can sit here and knock down 'inherent racism' strawmen all day, if you like.  But you won't be making too many inroads as to how or why these associations are made.  Which means you are depriving yourself of the tools to effectively combat the problem.

Quote from: StormBringer;480330Why does Stormfront use them in that manner, then?  Why don't they use Derro, or Vegepygmys, or Meazels?  Or any one of several dozen other humanoids?

Because they're racist, and not very well-read. They want a symbol of something they hate, and want to use something everything will recognise. So they pick something in popular culture. Orcs.*

Just because Stormfront uses orcs to represent black people does not say anything about D&D any more than the Nazis' using rats to represent Jews says something about rodents.

If we see a race as some vile thing, whether a real thing or an imaginary one, it's because we're racist, not because of anything inherent in that thing or that race. If Adam Dray sees orcs as black people, then he is racist. Lots of us have our prejudices, most of us keep them to ourselves, though.

Now you're being stupid, Stormbringer. You should fold the Citadel of Chaos into story-games.com. You are NOT invited to Pfaffenberg's Folly.

* I'm assuming that it is in fact true that stormfront does actually use D&D to recruit skinheads. It sounds like bullshit to me, since most of them are semi-literate unemployed bums who are too lazy to read rulebooks, but I'm not going to their website to check.

Quote from: Vmerc@;480314And if they tasted good I'd eat them too.

The pig-snouted ones taste like bacon....

Quote from: FrankTrollman;480291And that point is still wrong. There is nothing unnatural about the Stormfronters using D&D as a recruiting tool, because they don't have to change a single thing about the game itself when they pervert it into a recruiting tool. All of the elements that they stress are elements that exist in the game as written.

They make much over the fact that some races are better than others and some races are good and others evil. That is basically their whole argument, so what makes D&D an "unnatural" thing for them to use?

-Frank

So, by this same logic, your cyberpunk fantasy heartbreaker has inherently racist elements in it. So, what racial stereotypes are represented in this game you lovingly devote multiple posts to on this forum?

Quote from: CRKrueger;4803012. Why when I do a search of Citadel of Chaos for "racist", "racism", "colonialism", "colonialist" and "genocide" do I get not a single post? You'd think if there were such a problem with D&D it would have arisen by now.

Wait... did we become so politically correct that we have to talk about racism every single place where we talk about every single thing that has racist elements? That's... a new interpretation.

AD&D had "Pygmies" in it as late as the 2nd edition Monstrous Compendium. That entry was stupid and racist. I hope we can all agree on that point. Whether or not any particular discussion discussed that or even whether any particular website felt the need to discuss that doesn't obviate that fact.

There are parts of our history that are embarrassing. The treatment of Pygmies in monster entries is certainly amongst them. Many people choose to act as if that hadn't happened, and that's a fine response. But claiming that it didn't happen is an outright lie. And citing people not talking about it as evidence that it didn't happen is just fucking bizarre. It's right there. Open the damn book and look at it if you don't believe me.

-Frank

Quote from: FrankTrollman;480334AD&D had "Pygmies" in it as late as the 2nd edition Monstrous Compendium.

-Frank

It had leprechauns too.  I took offense to that as an irish person.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;480331Because they're racist, and not very well-read. They want a symbol of something they hate, and want to use something everything will recognise. So they pick something in popular culture. Orcs.*

Exactly.  Because there aren't those elements in Candyland. Therefore...

QuoteJust because Stormfront uses orcs to represent black people does not say anything about D&D

...it's only possible in the first place because of the nature of RPGs.

But you will continue to notice that no one is supporting the idea that racism is inherent to D&D.  I mean, you can give a serial murderer a knife, or you can give them a whiffle bat.  Either way, they are going to find a way to murder someone.  But the one with the knife will get there first.

Quote* I'm assuming that it is in fact true that stormfront does actually use D&D to recruit skinheads. It sounds like bullshit to me, since most of them are semi-literate unemployed bums who are too lazy to read rulebooks, but I'm not going to their website to check.

[/SIZE]I skimmed a post or two.  Stormfront appears to be the sophisticated bigot's hangout on the web.  They actually seemed to have a pretty good handle on rules balance with... AD&D? 3.x?  4e?  I wasn't honestly 100% sure what rules they were referring to in the link provided earlier.

This is hilarious with the picture of pig-men in this guy's post as proof of racism.  It's like a Letterman skit.  I wish someone would post the earth elemental pic out of MM1, we're really missing some culturally relevant metaphors here.  And the brownie with his goofy hat...damn the Welsh.  Don't leave out the berserker pic portraying the Norse as crazed evil killers and the hill giant is an obvious stab at Kentucky.  He's right, every damn page.

Quote from: StormBringer;480330Ok...Wait, you just said the game has absolutely nothing to do with it.

How can you miss the phrase bolded and underlined "we choose to bring to it"?  Oh yeah, because it wouldn't fit your soundbite driveby reply.

Quote from: StormBringer;480330Aside from you bringing it up repeatedly, who here has said D&D is inherently racist?

Ah, ok, so I guess D&D according to you is not inherently racist, it just has something about it, compared to other RPG systems that makes it easy for Stormfront to use as a tool for racist propaganda?  How convenient that this position lets you say the OP is a crank, yet still carry his banner as to the original point.  You're way better at sophistry then the Stormfront guys, I'll give you that.  

Quote from: StormBringer;480330squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant  eyes... ...degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least  lovely Mongol-types" "Sallow" is not a synonym for "green".

No, but the term green is in fact the term green or even green with "bluish-tinge".  Oh yeah, that's right, you weren't quoting an actual old school D&D book, as again, that fact doesn't suit your argument.

Quote from: StormBringer;480330Or are you saying that Rodians are every bit as close to appearing human as Orcs?  I mean, you do realize that Rodians share absolutely no characteristics with pretty much any living creature on Earth

Wow, eyes, ears, snout, antennae, arms, legs, hands (with weird fingers granted).  Man, how fucking alien, I'm amazed I could even recognize it as a life form.  Seriously, non-human is non-human.

Quote from: StormBringer;480330See?  Even CRKreuger understands RPGs are used instead of board games for a reason.

Restating someone's opinion to alternate purpose, man, you really have become pathetic haven't you? Genetics is a better science for Stormfront to misapply and generate lies with then, say Botany.  Is Genetics racist?  RPGs are no different.
 

Quote from: StormBringer;480330See, you can sit here and knock down 'inherent racism' strawmen all day, if you like.

The fact that you're relying on pathetic, bad-faith arguments to try and win the point is proof enough that it's not a strawman.  Unless you've descended to Glenn Beck level and are simply on about it because I had the temerity to question an idiot wearing the team jersey.

Quote from: StormBringer;480330But you won't be making too many inroads as to how or why these associations are made.

Aha, so there are inroads to be made, eh?  Apparently some analysis is needed to determine why orcs are the bad guys in D&D?  Maybe some examination of our white, western colonial past is in order?  Didn't you call the OP a crank, or was that just to get the heat off your back after a ton of people in the thread agreed with me in that post you still haven't and are never going to answer?

Quote from: StormBringer;480330Which means you are depriving yourself of the tools to effectively combat the problem.

The only tool I need is logic, which tells me that RPGs are as much of a problem as genetics is.  Educating people so they aren't subject to easily disproved lies and propaganda is the solution.

Storm, racism, sexism, nationalism, fascism, hatred, intolerance all exist and in America we have a larger helping of it then a lot of other countries.  I think if you and I compiled a list of the top-ten people America would be better off without, then a large number of those people would be the same.  

However, when it comes to discussion, I never thought the end justifies the means.  If someone's making a flawed argument, I've never jumped to someone's aid simply because they shared my leanings in any respect.  I try very hard not to construct "gotcha" arguments or drive-by soundbites.  I consider those the tools of the enemy, those who would obscure truth to gain advantage (and those people exist on both side of any aisle).

Simply put, you're using those tools now, which causes me to think less of you.  Sorry bro, that's just the way it is.

Are Vegepygmies racial stereotypes for vegans?

Simple questions.

Is the description of orcs in D&D racist?
Were they constructed to consciously or unconsciously represent non-whites?

Yes or no?

Quote from: Vmerc@;480314And if they tasted good I'd eat them too.

That reminds me of an ethical question that occured to me a while back.

If we ever meet an alien species how intelligent will they have to be for us not to eat them?  IQ of a dog? A Pig? a Chip? A Whale? An American?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;480316By a wonderful coincidence, one of my old gaming friends has returned to Melbourne after years in the gaming wilderness known as Singapore. He pointed out that Saturday the 1st of October is Arneson Memorial Day. And so you communist dogs have inspired me to run a game.
....
While you lot masturbate furiously over your copies of the collected works of Ayn Rand, Thomas Friedman, Noam Chomsky, Sartre and Andrea Dworkin, desperately claiming some connection between the contemporaneous dialectic of the dominant paradigm and halberd rules, we'll be gaming on, motherfuckers.

Preach it! [edit]In fact, I am adopting this into my sig, right now.[/edit]