Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;480280I don't see how someone could read racism out of monopoly? - though there is a racist version.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghettopoly

Of course, this is what JibbaJabba alluded to, and David R outright stated.  While it is possible  for a group of people to imagine running over  with the car, or stomping on 's heads with the  shoe, I can hardly imagine that would have the same 'catharsis'.  And it requires a lot more work for about the same result of just sitting around drinking beer and telling racist jokes.

In many ways, treating ethnicity as a 'race' is an historical artefact  more than anything particularly 'logical'.  In that sense, actual  'racism' is merely in the minds of those who hold such a view; there is  no 'reality' on which to hang such notions.  Imperator, David R and myself are no more different 'races' than we are different genders.

 Conversely, RPGs really have all the tools set up already, especially  fantasy games.  I would have been highly incredulous, in fact, if no one had made the connection in the entire history of gaming.  Goblinoids and demi-humans are very specifically a different race.  More or less savage, depending on the whims of your DM, perhaps, but clearly and unarguably 'not human'.  And for those so inclined, the s are not human, either.

Again, yes, the players are bringing these things to the table.  But the table isn't exactly a tabula rasa where the only responsible parties are clearly the players.

QuoteI could totally see Chess being misconstrued as racist, though. If  "white" and "black" are ideological rather than racial tags, you should  be able to convert captured pawns to your colour, rather than killing  them. And White gets an unfair advantage.

I believe you are thinking of the ancient Chinese game of Go.  

As always, Trollman speaks from his extensive experience of fantasy gaming.

Another virgin talking about sex. Sad.

Stormbringer, if you truly believe that D&D has inherently "ist" properties, and the default assumptions of the game actually lend themselves easily to perversion by Stormfront, to the point where we can say that those assumptions are actually coded in the game itself, then two simple questions...

1. Why do you run a site devoted to "Vintage Gaming" which includes a whole roster of these types of games.

2. Why when I do a search of Citadel of Chaos for "racist", "racism", "colonialism", "colonialist" and "genocide" do I get not a single post? You'd think if there were such a problem with D&D it would have arisen by now.

Maybe the search function isn't working properly, or maybe you don't actually have too much of a problem with D&D and you're pushing the point here because of the underlying political content.

Most of the people arguing in this thread (including Storm) have claimed that there are problems with the original post, yet we're closing in on 900 posts, still arguing whether or not killing orcs is genocide.

Racism, colonialism, genocide, rape, murder, torture all exist in great quantities in the real world perpetuated by every race and culture that's ever existed.  Human beings bring this shit with us, and use it to infect everything we do.  The underlying flaw lies in people themselves.

However, I could torture someone with a kitchen knife, yet it would not be accurate to call a kitchen knife inherently a tool of torture, whereas an Iron Maiden has no other purpose.  D&D can be used as a tool to promote racism, however that is not its intent, RaHoWa on the other hand, has no other purpose.

The OP drew inference where none was implied, which is the core flaw behind the majority of arguments in this thread.

And yes, JHKim, sorry, but anyone who is talking about D&D and actually says

Quote from: Adam DraySo it all stinks to me of a kind of privileged, colonial, expansionist, genocidal viewpoint that makes my stomach turn.

Deserves nothing but an out of hand dismissal and ridicule.

Quote2. Why when I do a search of the entire site for "racist", "racism", "colonialism", "colonialist" and "genocide" do I get not a single post? You'd think if there were such a problem with D&D it would have arisen by now.

Because the search function sucks. This thread is hundreds of pages long and uses those words dozens of times. Hell, your own post just used all those words. If the search function isn't turning up a single post, it is the search function that is at fault: there should at the very least be the posts in this thread. QED.

That it doesn't turn up even those means that it cannot be used to verify one way or another how often or how many times these issues have been discussed.

-Frank

Quote from: FrankTrollman;480304Because the search function sucks. This thread is hundreds of pages long and uses those words dozens of times. Hell, your own post just used all those words. If the search function isn't turning up a single post, it is the search function that is at fault: there should at the very least be the posts in this thread. QED.

That it doesn't turn up even those means that it cannot be used to verify one way or another how often or how many times these issues have been discussed.

-Frank

Those words all turn up all over the place on this site when I search, I was referring to Citadel of Chaos.  Post has been edited to make that more clear.

Morrow and Pseudo are gonna push this bitch to 1000 by themselves now that they have the SPLC to argue about.  Jesus Wept.

Useless post: CRK just posted 6 times on one page.

Quote from: CRKrueger;480301Stormbringer, if you truly believe that D&D has inherently "ist" properties, and the default assumptions of the game actually lend themselves easily to perversion by Stormfront, to the point where we can say that those assumptions are actually coded in the game itself, then two simple questions...

Except you already know I don't believe that.

Quote from: Cranewings;480308Useless post: CRK just posted 6 times on one page.

Hey there were a lot of posts I missed, had to catch up.    A bunch of posts people can reply to individually is probably better then a multi-quoted mega-post that takes up half the page.

Quote from: StormBringer;480309Except you already know I don't believe that.

But you do say...

Quote from: StormBringer;480309Conversely, RPGs really have all the tools set up already, especially fantasy games.

Quote from: StormBringer;480309Again, yes, the players are bringing these things to the table. But the table isn't exactly a tabula rasa where the only responsible parties are clearly the players.

Which implies that if the players are not the only responsible parties, then the game itself is one of the responsible parties, yes?

So is D&D partly responsible for Stormfront using it as a racist tool or not, and if so, how?  

Also, if so, how does D&D differ in this regard from WEG Star Wars, Star Frontiers, GURPS or Runequest?

Guess I'm the only one here that thinks that orcs should just be slaughtered to the last one.  

Genocide?  Yes.  

Orcs are worthless, fanged, pig-nosed, evil creatures.  

Kill em all.

Quote from: Vmerc@;480312Guess I'm the only one here that thinks that orcs should just be slaughtered to the last one.  

Genocide?  Yes.  

Orcs are worthless, fanged, pig-nosed, evil creatures.  

Kill em all.

Porcist.

And if they tasted good I'd eat them too.

Quote from: CRKrueger;480311Which implies that if the players are not the only responsible parties, then the game itself is one of the responsible parties, yes?

So, you are arguing the converse, then?  The games cannot possibly have anything to do with it?

QuoteSo is D&D partly responsible for Stormfront using it as a racist tool or not, and if so, how?  

I guess the better question is, if the game cannot possibly be connected in any way, why aren't they using Chess, or Monopoly, or Candyland?

QuoteAlso, if so, how does D&D differ in this regard from WEG Star Wars, Star Frontiers, GURPS or Runequest?

Primarily?  Popularity.  I mean, that is pretty obvious, isn't it?  Besides, what cultural stereotype would you say Vrusk could be associated with?  How about Rodians?  I think the difficulties using those games is pretty self evident.

By a wonderful coincidence, one of my old gaming friends has returned to Melbourne after years in the gaming wilderness known as Singapore. He pointed out that Saturday the 1st of October is Arneson Memorial Day. And so you communist dogs have inspired me to run a game.

The game session may involve our drinking alcohol. Some of the characters may be a different gender to the players, some might even be gay, if the player wants. The only thing which is non-negotiable is that there must be horrible butchery of orcs, females and young optional but not frowned upon.

The email invite said,


While you lot masturbate furiously over your copies of the collected works of Ayn Rand, Thomas Friedman, Noam Chomsky, Sartre and Andrea Dworkin, desperately claiming some connection between the contemporaneous dialectic of the dominant paradigm and halberd rules, we'll be gaming on, motherfuckers.