Quote from: David R;480246Since I'm saving my effort for Stormbringer's thread, I'll just say this. All this is rather silly. A role playing game is perhaps the best way to transmit or reinforce dodgy vile ideas within a social context. Add to this the cathartic elements of the game and a manipulative GM/Group, the potential to warp impressionable minds is great. Better than any other artistic medium. Most agenda driven games are basically didactic exercises.

Regards,
David R

I don't think anyone here is denying the power of all mediums to be used as tools of manipulation and propoganda. However I honestly think RPGs are the least effictive method of promoting an agenda for a number of reasons. In my experience music and film are much more powerful ways to stir people to action. When Wilson said about Birth of a Nation "its like writing history with lightning", I think he was right. A visual image is much harder to dislodge than something you imagine on your own. I mean I am a big advocate of the power of imagination, but it takes way more work than passively sitting in a theater absorbing whatever is placed before you. And just look at the power of music to shape culture and motivate. Role playing games don't compare in my view. Sure they could be used by white supremacists as one additional tool for indoctrination. But I think their hate music, flyers and movies are going to get them way more recruits than games of racist D&D.

But the point being rejected by the posters here is the one made by the OP poster: that there is something inherently problematic about D&D's default setting assumptions.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480252But the point being rejected by the posters here is the one made by the OP poster: that there is something inherently problematic about D&D's default setting assumptions.

I realize that and I rejected the OP's premise in my first post here. I disagree with your point that it's the least effective medium (and I don't have much time at this moment to tell you why) but I think it's not very effective in the sense that not many people are interested in it.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: jibbajibba;480243But jhkim's point is more subtle. The fact is that racists can make those points from D&D. They can't make those points from many games.

You can make racist points out of literally anything. That does not make that thing racist.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480251Because it is just a game. I love mob movies and I love playing gangsters in RPGs. Just because I routinely arrange to whack my comrades in the game doesn't mean it bleeds into my real life. If you are uncomfortable playing such a game, that is fine. Everyone has their own threshhold for violence and mahem in entertainment.

True, but everyone also tends to have a threshold for what is OK in other people's entertainment.  i.e. It's fine to enjoy genocide, but those who enjoy Poison'd are sick and/or fucked in the head.  

I think "It's just a game" is no more or less an out than "It's just a movie" or "It's just a comic".  Obviously fiction isn't the same thing as reality, but it still has meaning.  I personally would have a problem if there was a scene in the Lord of the Rings movies where the heroes went through butchering up orc women and children and told themselves with authority that it was the good thing to do.  Can you honestly say that you would be fine with it?

Quote from: jhkim;480256I think "It's just a game" is no more or less an out than "It's just a movie" or "It's just a comic".  Obviously fiction isn't the same thing as reality, but it still has meaning.  I personally would have a problem if there was a scene in the Lord of the Rings movies where the heroes went through butchering up orc women and children and told themselves with authority that it was the good thing to do.  Can you honestly say that you would be fine with it?

I would have a problem with it for the same reason I would have a problem with it in most of my own fantasy games, the characters are supposed to be heroic and good, and butchering the women and children goes against that. However if it was a zany film like Evil Dead 3 and they were doing that, I'd probably have less of an issue (just like I have no issue with gallows humor and violence in mob movies).

However, I think a game is different than a movie. And while I haven't cared much for wasting orcs since I was in highschool, I am not really bothered if people chose to waste orcs in their own games. I think killing orc women and children is a bit too far for my tastes, but if the game world assumes inherently evil orcs I can see where those games are coming from. I don't view it as sinister, just knights of the dinner table style gaming.

Quote from: jibbajibba;480243But jhkim's point is more subtle. The fact is that racists can make those points from D&D. They can't make those points from many games.

Racist's can make points from all kinds of things, just like anybody else. This does not mean there are racist messages or ideas inherent in these things, including fantasy. The point might be more subtle, but it's still wrong.

I'm sure you can build a racist theory out of Monopoly. The way the properties are scattered across the board, the probabilities of the  game, whatnot. You can either prove that Monopoly is the racist's dream, or that it is a piece of trash undermench propaganda. Take your pick.

Could do the same thing with the colors of the rainbow, apples, briefs or boxers, doggy style v. missionary, etc etc. I mean come on. Have you guys ever actually talked to these numbnuts before? They have a fucking warped vision of reality, man. That doesn't make the freaking rainbow, apples, briefs, boxers, and sexual positions racist. You guys should take a step back, get off the soapbox and breathe.

Quote from: jhkim;480248Trying to dismiss people out of hand and using faulty analogies doesn't make your case, though.  

In many fantasy games, there are different groups of intelligent, humanoid creatures that are called "races".  In many interpretations of the background, it is a tenet of the good alignment to kill off every member of the evil races because they are inherently, irredeemably evil.  Indeed, a bunch of people here in this thread have argued in favor of irredeemably evil orcs.  

However, what that means is that in such worlds it is good to cut the throats of orc women, children, and prisoners.  I personally am uncomfortable role-playing that, and I would want real arguments why that is not problematic, rather than just name-calling that I'm stupid if I have a problem with it.

That's because orcs aren't any more real than dragons, faeries, zombies or demons. Why am I having to explain this? It's fantasy. Grendel was evil, frost giants are evil, harpies are evil, and fomorians are evil. Why? Because we say so, and there are no real Grendels, frost giants, harpies, or fomorians to take offense. Same with orcs. Does anyone really think positing irredeemably evil orcs is morally wrong? Boring I can buy, but morally wrong? Signs of real world racism? Bullshit. No more than anything else in mythology or any other kind of fantastic medium.

Just because you and apparently others have hang-ups about what kind of imaginary things you do in a fantasy game, doesn't mean there's something wrong with those who don't have the same hang-ups.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480257I would have a problem with it for the same reason I would have a problem with it in most of my own fantasy games, the characters are supposed to be heroic and good, and butchering the women and children goes against that. However if it was a zany film like Evil Dead 3 and they were doing that, I'd probably have less of an issue (just like I have no issue with gallows humor and violence in mob movies).

So let's be clear here - you say that you would potentially have a problem with it depending on exactly how it was presented in the movie.  You wouldn't casually dismiss any orc baby-killing as "It's just a movie" - but rather you would have to assess whether it was done in a zany context.  

I probably would judge similarly.  If a movie was not-so-subtly mocking its own genre, I might have greater tolerance for such violence - though it could still go too far.  

Personally, I would judge games in a very similar way.  If the heroes are not expected to be good and/or if the game was mocking its own genre, then I'd have less of a problem with such violence.

Quote from: jhkim;480256True, but everyone also tends to have a threshold for what is OK in other people's entertainment.  i.e. It's fine to enjoy genocide, but those who enjoy Poison'd are sick and/or fucked in the head.  

I think "It's just a game" is no more or less an out than "It's just a movie" or "It's just a comic".  Obviously fiction isn't the same thing as reality, but it still has meaning.  I personally would have a problem if there was a scene in the Lord of the Rings movies where the heroes went through butchering up orc women and children and told themselves with authority that it was the good thing to do.  Can you honestly say that you would be fine with it?

Apples and oranges. In all my 30 years RPGing, not once has our group of PCs set out to wipe out the orc (or any other) race. The "genocide" the OP is positing is his own twisted view of what's happening if an orc tribe is defeated, and I'd bet dollars to donuts the reason the tribe was "wiped out" (very loosely speaking, since it's all imaginary, and nothing is being killed, or wiped out, or hurt in any way) was because they were raiding or attacking and killing the "good" people. I get it, some folks wouldn't want to think about "killing" pretend orc babies, but since they're not real, never have been real, and never will be real, some people do not have the same hang-ups. Either way, I'd be willing to bet in the vast majority of games, not even pretend genocide is the goal. In Poison'd, apparently, describing actions that in the real world will be shocking, disgusting, and/or morally reprehensible is at least part of the point, since everyone knows how evil pirates were and apparently some folks are entertained by being verbally disgusting. In short, in the one morally shocking things are not the point. In the other, morally shocking things are the point, at least in part. Two different things.

Plus, I don't recall many people saying Poison'd is racist, or anything even of that nature, and I also don't recall too many folks saying people shouldn't play it if they really want to. We might say it's fucking stupid, or that we would hate it. Just opinions, nothing wrong with that either.

Quote from: jhkim;480261So let's be clear here - you say that you would potentially have a problem with it depending on exactly how it was presented in the movie.  You wouldn't casually dismiss any orc baby-killing as "It's just a movie" - but rather you would have to assess whether it was done in a zany context.  

While I might object to it aesthetically (on the grounds it violates the spirit of Lord of the Rings) I wouldn't see it as an endorsement of domestic violence or racism either. I would probably just say it was poor taste and leave it at that. If some of my friends liked it I wouldn't take issue with their enjoyment of the film or feel a need for people to hash out how the orc baby killing was "problematic".

QuoteI probably would judge similarly.  If a movie was not-so-subtly mocking its own genre, I might have greater tolerance for such violence - though it could still go too far.  

I have a pretty high tolerance of violence in film. However I have my limits as well. There are some scenes I just can't take watching. But I have to admit I am a fan of violent action movies.

QuotePersonally, I would judge games in a very similar way.  If the heroes are not expected to be good and/or if the game was mocking its own genre, then I'd have less of a problem with such violence.

In my experience, most orc killing games are a little tongue in cheek. Sure, if someone is relishing the gory details of killing an orc baby, that is going to unerve people.

Quote from: Sigmund;480260That's because orcs aren't any more real than dragons, faeries, zombies or demons. Why am I having to explain this? It's fantasy.

Can you answer the same question honestly?  i.e. In the Lord of the Rings movies, would you have no problem with a scene of the good heroes butchering up a bunch of helpless orc women and young?  If you want more specifics, perhaps picture it when the Ents along with Merry and Pippin were attacking Isengard.  No gore is shown, just some ugly little orc young trying to get away - and we see the Ents crushing them while Merry and Pippin try to help out, pointing out ones that are being missed.  

Sure, it's just fantasy, but I still would have a problem with it.  

We still identify with characters and situations in fantasy in exactly the same way that we do in other fiction.  Framing things as fantasy makes things more distant, but it doesn't become abstract notions divorced from any meaning.  

As an alternative:  Do you think that any meaning behind James Cameron's Avatar can be excused because it is just fantasy?

Quote from: jhkim;480239This doesn't seem to match the case, though.  The white supremacist topic cited was "Learn all you need to know about race from Dungeons and Dragons."  That isn't simply incidental usage - it is someone directly connecting principles about race from D&D to real-world races.

Only in the same way that insane people find "connections" in things that only exist because they want to see them. Pariedolia, and the like. You seem to be suggesting that the racist elements are there, just waiting to be discoverexd. In which case we disagree on a fundamental level; whatever connection any given person might find in D&D to their half-baked political agendas are, IMO, completely and utterly of their own making.

 

QuoteOf course this isn't what most people do, but it's also not parallel to a white supremacist who happens to drive a Ford - unless you can find me a white supremacist saying that they learned about race from Ford cars.

I've never come across a white supremacist that said they learned about race from a roleplaying game. Such a person obviously would have to have extreme mental deficiencies above and beyond racial intolerance. so, yeah, I think the Ford analogy still stands.

QuoteAs I understand it, your standard is that unless something - by itself - makes complete non-racists into complete racists, then it is completely irrelevant and any suggestion of connection is ridiculous.  That seems like a very high bar to apply.

It is a high bar because anything less is meaningless. There is always great concern among certain people that other people are constantly at the risk of being "influenced" (bordering on an accusation of post-hypnotic suggestion) by the things they read, games they play, music they listen to. The thing is, that belief is at odds with reality. It's the Pat Pulling "find a scapegoat" approach to pop psychology. Roleplaying games do not influence the behaviour of the people playing them. The infinitesimally small percentage of roleplayers that might actually be an exception to this rule are those who already, independently, have a loose grasp on reality.

This issue becomes even more confused as the claim is not "D&D presents racist ideas", rather "D&D employs imaginary creations in a way that some people might view as analogous to real world racial concerns...if one is willing to squint really hard".

I flat out don't buy the accusation at all, and have yet to see a scrap of evidence beyond some half-baked philosophizing.

Once again, "It's just a stupid game"



 

QuoteI think in that a lot of things have potential effects, and we have to judge the good against the bad.  In particular, a lot of old movies, television, and books have racist themes - sometimes explicitly but sometimes just by minor bits or lack of inclusion.  Personally, I don't approve of editing the originals to remove such prejudice, but conversely I also don't think that it is all perfectly harmless.  Growing up and/or living on a diet of prejudiced stories can desensitize one.  As a father, I try to explicitly point out prejudice in old stories and talk about it with my son.

That's all nice and good, but not really anything to do with the situation at hand. Explaining actual examples of racism in media to a kid is not comparable to what amounts to, for some, a suspicious analogy.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480263While I might object to it aesthetically (on the grounds it violates the spirit of Lord of the Rings) I wouldn't see it as an endorsement of domestic violence or racism either. I would probably just say it was poor taste and leave it at that.

I just want to repeat this, because it's really summing up the whole thing exactly.

Pretend killing imaginary orc babies would definitely be in poor taste, but inherently racist? Colonialism? Really? Come on now.

Quote from: jhkim;480264As an alternative:  Do you think that any meaning behind James Cameron's Avatar can be excused because it is just fantasy?

This movie never troubled me. I was there for a good ride and enjoyed it for the visuals and the setting (didn't really care about the message since I always find Cameron way too heavy handed in that respect). Generally when I watch a movie I ignore the message because in all honestly I am not interested in having my political/social views informed by a film-maker.