Quote from: Axiomatic;480214So now we're hypothesizing some sort of "racist panic" in which completely innocent people's actions are misinterpreted as the acts of a wide-spanning racist organization that exists only to commit racism? Is that where we are?

Only if you are incapable of reading and comprehending the actual posts in this thread. Nobody involved in this thread, except you, have even mentioned the possibility. Your troll is a failure.

Quote from: Benoist;480152Could be. If you give me the green light to imagine the shit out of this, I will.

This could lead to some interesting situations...if you feel it would add to the play then by all means!

I was thinking about this some last night...some creepy possibilities, some more benign...

Quote from: FrankTrollman;480138To an extent. But the general wickedness of biological determinism and eugenic genocide is not really a Left vs. Right thing. The Eugenic movement had proponents of every stripe. We mostly hear about a particular right wing group because people like to Godwin arguments, but leftists like Bertrand Russel and largely a-political horror writers like H.P.Lovecraft were dyed in the wool eugenicists. As the supreme court justice (and progressive hero) Oliver Wendell Holmes put it:



We condemn these positions because they are wicked. Not because they are left wing or right wing, but because experience has shown beyond reasonable doubt that such reasoning leads to atrocities the likes of which cannot be condoned by any man. It's a compelling sounding argument, and it persuaded a lot of people of every political conviction in the early parts of the twentieth century. But it's wrong. It's wrong to make that argument, and if you make that argument you are in the wrong.

If there is anything in all the world that is truly Evil, it is that. Which is why it's pretty weird to have people condemning the condemnation of it as some sort of leftist conspiracy. It's one of the things that those of moral clarity can agree upon unreservedly, whether their sympathies lie with Karl Marx or Karl Rove.

-Frank

Like I said, pretty civilised.  

Most Righties class the Nazis along with their felllow Eugenicists as Left-wing BTW, as I expect you knew.  Actual Right-wing conservative traditionalists tend to be more into Catholic-style "great chain of being", everyone has their place - and should know their place.  But the US has almost no conservative-traditionalist tradition, so instead "right wing" covers a spectrum from Maddison Grant Aryan-fanboi-ism to GW Bush & his 'invade the world/invite the world' neocons.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;480172And yet: Stormfront RPG groups exist (no link to spare Pundit hair pulling). So it is part of what RPGs do, whether intentionally or not.

You can say "People don't use these books to promote a racist message!" but what you're really saying is that to the best of your knowledge you don't use D&D books to spread a racist message. Because the reality that there are people who do use D&D to spread a racist message is rather inescapable. It's a nasty part of our world and the internet, but they really do exist. You can go to Stormfront or any of a number of other "White Pride" sites with RPG conversation on them and have a discussion about how exterminating evil races psyches you up to get rid of undesirables in the real world. They also find and exalt the racist messages hidden in Vampire, and other games.

You may not play RPGs that way. Heck, I'm pretty sure you don't. I don't play RPGs that way. I don't find that the fact that those people are out there hinders me from playing enjoying RPGs. But it is plumb ignorant to say that RPGs aren't used to spread a racist message, because there are people right now in the real world who are using RPGs to spread a racist message.

-Frank

I suspect they were racist before they discovered RPGs, Frank.  But yes, there's lots in D&D, or Tolkien, for Stormfronters to get their teeth into.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;480180Major difference: the vast network of satanist terrorists were fictional. The human sacrifices they supposedly engaged in on a regular basis did not, in fact, occur. Militant hate groups are, however, real.

The SPLC isn't very reliable though - they class all kinds of people as Hate, from actual Haters (Aryan Nation, Nation of Islam) to, well, people who clearly aren't.  The most fanatical anti-racist I've encountered on the Internet was a member of the League of the South.  If he hated anyone, it was racists.  The League of the South have a strong anti-racist statement on their own website.  Yet SPLC class the League of the South as a 'Hate' group purely on their being a Southern-Secessionist organisation.  There are other examples, but that was the most obviously egregious I've come across.

Edit: "Kills real human beings every month"?  Really?  Who does that?

Quote from: TristramEvans;480201Part of what the RPGs do? You're saying that RPGs create these groups of people? Because, if not, what's the difference between inserting the words "books", "eggs", "Monopoly", "stamp-collecting" into that statement? Racist people play RPGs? Of course, no one here is going to dispute that. They also drive cars and use toilet paper. There's no connection between these items or activities and the people themselves, though. No one has ever become a racist because of the strong influence of the "orc" metaphor.

This doesn't seem to match the case, though.  The white supremacist topic cited was "Learn all you need to know about race from Dungeons and Dragons."  That isn't simply incidental usage - it is someone directly connecting principles about race from D&D to real-world races.  Of course this isn't what most people do, but it's also not parallel to a white supremacist who happens to drive a Ford - unless you can find me a white supremacist saying that they learned about race from Ford cars.  

As I understand it, your standard is that unless something - by itself - makes complete non-racists into complete racists, then it is completely irrelevant and any suggestion of connection is ridiculous.  That seems like a very high bar to apply.  

I think in that a lot of things have potential effects, and we have to judge the good against the bad.  In particular, a lot of old movies, television, and books have racist themes - sometimes explicitly but sometimes just by minor bits or lack of inclusion.  Personally, I don't approve of editing the originals to remove such prejudice, but conversely I also don't think that it is all perfectly harmless.  Growing up and/or living on a diet of prejudiced stories can desensitize one.  As a father, I try to explicitly point out prejudice in old stories and talk about it with my son.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;480172exalt the racist messages hidden in Vampire,

I find the White Nationalists who exalt the Vampire, traditional symbol of corruption, sin and death, as a fine of example of Aryan Manhood, to be particularly strange.

Even if they do sparkle.

Quote from: jhkim;480239This doesn't seem to match the case, though.  The white supremacist topic cited was "Learn all you need to know about race from Dungeons and Dragons."  That isn't simply incidental usage - it is someone directly connecting principles about race from D&D to real-world races.  Of course this isn't what most people do, but it's also not parallel to a white supremacist who happens to drive a Ford - unless you can find me a white supremacist saying that they learned about race from Ford cars.  

Sure, but it is just as nonsensical. Just because these people can find analogies for their racist world view in a fantasy setting, that doesn't in any way mean the setting is to blame.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480242Sure, but it is just as nonsensical. Just because these people can find analogies for their racist world view in a fantasy setting, that doesn't in any way mean the setting is to blame.

But jhkim's point is more subtle. The fact is that racists can make those points from D&D. They can't make those points from many games.

Quote from: jibbajibba;480243But jhkim's point is more subtle. The fact is that racists can make those points from D&D. They can't make those points from many games.

I suppose it depends on the game, but they shouldn't have a hard time finding places for racist comparison if its any kind of interesting setting. Any fantasy game that has races and or countries with positive and negative qualities should serve their purposes just fine. And the mere fact that they can interpret D&D that way, doesn't make D&D inherently racist nor does it mean D&D encourages racism. It just means these racists have figured out how to make a reflecting pool for their own values.

Oh my god, I just looked back in on this thread and it's still going at 85 pages, and someone's earnestly mentioning the SPLC?

This hobby sucks and deserves death.

Since I'm saving my effort for Stormbringer's thread, I'll just say this. All this is rather silly. A role playing game is perhaps the best way to transmit or reinforce dodgy vile ideas within a social context. Add to this the cathartic elements of the game and a manipulative GM/Group, the potential to warp impressionable minds is great. Better than any other artistic medium. Most agenda driven games are basically didactic exercises.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480242Sure, but it is just as nonsensical. Just because these people can find analogies for their racist world view in a fantasy setting, that doesn't in any way mean the setting is to blame.

Trying to dismiss people out of hand and using faulty analogies doesn't make your case, though.  

In many fantasy games, there are different groups of intelligent, humanoid creatures that are called "races".  In many interpretations of the background, it is a tenet of the good alignment to kill off every member of the evil races because they are inherently, irredeemably evil.  Indeed, a bunch of people here in this thread have argued in favor of irredeemably evil orcs.  

However, what that means is that in such worlds it is good to cut the throats of orc women, children, and prisoners.  I personally am uncomfortable role-playing that, and I would want real arguments why that is not problematic, rather than just name-calling that I'm stupid if I have a problem with it.

Quote from: jhkim;480248However, what that means is that in such worlds it is good to cut the throats of orc women, children, and prisoners.  I personally am uncomfortable role-playing that, and I would want real arguments why that is not problematic...

They have pig-snouts?

Quote from: jhkim;480248Trying to dismiss people out of hand and using faulty analogies doesn't make your case, though.  

In many fantasy games, there are different groups of intelligent, humanoid creatures that are called "races".  In many interpretations of the background, it is a tenet of the good alignment to kill off every member of the evil races because they are inherently, irredeemably evil.  Indeed, a bunch of people here in this thread have argued in favor of irredeemably evil orcs.  

We've already gone over this numerous times. Just because there are evil races in a game setting, that doesn't mean there is any connection between those and realworld races.

Fantasy settings are replete with thiings we'd find objectionable in the real world: monarchies, bloodshed, greed and powergrabbing.

While I don't care personally for hack N slash games, having participated in such gaming groups over the years I don't consider "kill the orcs" the least bit problematic.

QuoteHowever, what that means is that in such worlds it is good to cut the throats of orc women, children, and prisoners.  I personally am uncomfortable role-playing that, and I would want real arguments why that is not problematic, rather than just name-calling that I'm stupid if I have a problem with it.

Because it is just a game. I love mob movies and I love playing gangsters in RPGs. Just because I routinely arrange to whack my comrades in the game doesn't mean it bleeds into my real life. If you are uncomfortable playing such a game, that is fine. Everyone has their own threshhold for violence and mahem in entertainment.