I'm going to ignore pretty much everything that's been posted so far, because damn.

In general I don't have much use for alignments, but I have run campaigns where "absolute" morality was part of the metaphysics.  in one, the setting was a low-magic pseudo-11c.-Europe where God and the Devil existed and while remote, were influencing things that went on.  So it wasn't so much "Detect Good" or "Detect Evil" as much as "Detect Holiness" and "Detect Satanic Influence", but those things did exist and were measurable.

The other campaign was one based on Zoroastrianism, where the universe is evenly split between the influence of Ahura Mazda (god of light) and Ahrimanes (god of darkness).  In that setting, "Detect Good" and "Detect Evil" were "detect beings/actions/places that move the balance towards a particular end of the spectrum".

In both of these campaigns, irredeemably evil beings did exist; pseudo-Europe had no Orcs, but there were gnolls in Zoroaster-land.  They had females, and young, but slaughtering them en masse was still the Right Thing to Do, because their very existence in the world was tipping the balance towards Ahrimanes, and as creatures of the darkness they were evil right down to the pups, who were quite capable of savaging and eating things smaller than themselves, like babies and small children.

at the base level, it's the same as complaining about any game that might seem like it suck, merely because the players or GM sucked.  

it ain't the game, it's the players.

Quote from: Sigmund;480162Neither does your assertion that it does have more meaning than that. We could go on this way all week. Either provide a more compelling argument than "you're wrong", or get comfortable being ignored.

Absolutely, meaning can be imputed onto anything, really.  As I mentioned earlier in the thread, that is why our lizard hindbrains aren't in charge anymore; we developed the larger part that is capable of all kinds of wonder and horror.  Sometimes simultaneously.

However, the person that placed the cigar and the person that declares the most outlandish interpretation should be the ones whose motives are most suspect, and without rock solid evidence to the contrary, whose motives should never be taken at face value.  

On the one hand, you have the artist, who innocently claims "It's just a cigar", albeit a large pink cigar with a bulbous end and oddly pendulous pouch on the other end.  This is the critical function of art in a society; not painting portraits or still life, but showing the less savoury side of human nature.  Does this mean the OP is some kind of artist?  No, not just because of that.  RPGs have a set of guidelines that are more rigid or less, like any other form.  Novels have expected forms, as do paintings or sculpture.  Great art has been created within those expectations, but occasionally even greater art has been created by expanding or ignoring those strictures.  'Rejecting complacency' could be one of the core principles in truly great art.

On the other hand, you have the hair-trigger outrage junkie.  Like the artist, by sheer force of the law of averages, they are going to be 'right' or 'prophetic' once in a while.  But also like the artist, there is a lot of pure shit to slog through getting there.  It does serve as a proper balance for the artist, however; sometimes, a crucifix in a jar of piss is just a crucifix in a jar of piss.  While the artist may feel they made some profound statement or meaningful commentary, the habitual critic reminds them that they should probably stop trying so damn hard all the time.

In both hands, we have a group of people who feel their eyes truly have no scales, while everyone else is still shrouded by the veil of their own ignorance.  Which is why both of these cases must be approached with the highest level of suspicion.

What does that have to do with the OP dude?  Not much, really.  I have a feeling someone is taking their first Ethnic Studies class or something, and wanted to be a bit provocative on the web (someone phone the newspaper with that scoop!).  As I have mentioned, that rant is a bog-standard op-ed format.  If you don't agree with the delineation of the problem, it should be no surprise that you won't agree with the conclusion or the solution.  Conversely, if you don't agree with the premise, the authour isn't really talking to you anyway.  You can still vocally disagree; that is how we learn about ourselves and each other.

Speaking of which, when are we going to pick up the Amber game again?  Threads like these keep pushing it down on the 'longest thread' list, and I need to bulk up the post count on that one.  You need to find a half-dozen jackholes like yourself to take over abandoned characters.  See to it, my standing depends on your actions!  

Quote from: daniel_ream;480186In general I don't have much use for alignments, but I have run campaigns where "absolute" morality was part of the metaphysics.  in one, the setting was a low-magic pseudo-11c.-Europe where God and the Devil existed and while remote, were influencing things that went on.

Don't go anywhere!  I am still formulating an idea for a new post, and I need someone with a background on 11th-13th century Europe!  

Quote from: FrankTrollman;480172And yet: Stormfront RPG groups exist (no link to spare Pundit hair pulling). So it is part of what RPGs do, whether intentionally or not.

Part of what the RPGs do? You're saying that RPGs create these groups of people? Because, if not, what's the difference between inserting the words "books", "eggs", "Monopoly", "stamp-collecting" into that statement? Racist people play RPGs? Of course, no one here is going to dispute that. They also drive cars and use toilet paper. There's no connection between these items or activities and the people themselves, though. No one has ever become a racist because of the strong influence of the "orc" metaphor.

QuoteYou can say "People don't use these books to promote a racist message!" but what you're really saying is that to the best of your knowledge you don't use D&D books to spread a racist message.

I think what people are saying is that the books don't promote a racist message. People can use them to do that if they so chose, but the implication of the blogger in the OP is that this behaviour is in someway encouraged by the game itself.

QuoteBecause the reality that there are people who do use D&D to spread a racist message is rather inescapable. It's a nasty part of our world and the internet, but they really do exist. You can go to Stormfront or any of a number of other "White Pride" sites with RPG conversation on them and have a discussion about how exterminating evil races psyches you up to get rid of undesirables in the real world.

I'm not sure 'inescapable' is the word I'd use...perhaps "uninteresting" or "inapplicable".

QuoteThey also find and exalt the racist messages hidden in Vampire, and other games.

Hidden racist messages in all our RPGs? Starting to doubt your sanity point total.

QuoteYou may not play RPGs that way. Heck, I'm pretty sure you don't. I don't play RPGs that way. I don't find that the fact that those people are out there hinders me from playing enjoying RPGs. But it is plumb ignorant to say that RPGs aren't used to spread a racist message, because there are people right now in the real world who are using RPGs to spread a racist message.

-Frank

Um...ok. I guess I missed someone in this thread saying anything about that at any point, but I suppose I agree...there are racists out there playing rpgs in very racist ways.

Just, WTH does it have to do with any of us?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480185Satanists exist. I certainly knew kids who played with the idea in middle and highschool. I think in both cases the association between hate groups/satanists and rpgs is vastly overblown. Causation is pretty much nil. Edit: agree the conspiracy was fictional but it is the same kind of argument.

Satanists exist, yes. As certain as there are teenagers and cheap paperback copies of LaVey, but the phenomenon that the poster was talking about was something a bit different, having to do with the false "repressed memories" scare of the early 80s and the idea that an actual worldwide connected organization of Satanists existed, who spent most of their time apparently making toys and games for kids to indoctrinate them into the occult, in between abusing their children in secret suburban neighborhood orgies.

There was a "Satanic panic" in the early 80s that led to more than a few media witchhunts, and false arrests. It's actually all quite interesting, and worth reading up on, though grognards who had to live through that at a time when D&D was prime target number one may find less amusement in it.

Quote from: TristramEvans;480206Satanists exist, yes. As certain as there are teenagers and cheap paperback copies of LaVey, but the phenomenon that the poster was talking about was something a bit different, having to do with the false "repressed memories" scare of the early 80s and the idea that an actual worldwide connected organization of Satanists existed, who spent most of their time apparently making toys and games for kids to indoctrinate them into the occult, in between abusing their children in secret suburban neighborhood orgies.

There was a "Satanic panic" in the early 80s that led to more than a few media witchhunts, and false arrests. It's actually all quite interesting, and worth reading up on, though grognards who had to live through that at a time when D&D was prime target number one may find less amusement in it.

I realize thise--where i lived as a kid was swept up in some of tge hysteria just as i was getting into gaming. I see there is a difference but i think the argument and mentality are very much the same: they imbue d&d with a mystical power to corrupt people in some pet way. At least the op isnt against all d&d but imo he treads very close to tge same kind of reasoning that resulted the 80s hysteria. It is just like people who see communism everywhere or like people looking for hidden forms of anything they deem bad.

Oh for fuck's sake. No one is using guilt by association. No one is accusing you of being a Nazi. The specific quote being responded to is this:

QuoteIt isn't part of what they are designed to do, and it isn't a product of what they do.

If there is even one racist gaming circle anywhere in the world, then racism is a product of gaming. Not the biggest one, not a major one, not even necessarily an important one. But it is a product. It's there.

Stop flying off the handle. Someone made the statement that racist gaming does not exist. And it does. It's there. It's a thing. And saying it doesn't exist isn't helpful. You can point out that we aren't all like that - and we're not. You can point out that those groups are a weird and hated fringe - and they are. But they exist. They are a product of our culture. We can talk about it or we can ignore it and hope it goes away. Those are both valid options.

But outright saying it doesn't exist isn't in any way helpful. You can give the lie to that in like 20 seconds with a Google search. Again, we aren't providing links because Pundit wants us to not link to those assholes. But they are real. They are a product of gaming, like it or not. I don't like it, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

-Frank

So now we're hypothesizing some sort of "racist panic" in which completely innocent people's actions are misinterpreted as the acts of a wide-spanning racist organization that exists only to commit racism? Is that where we are?

Quote from: Axiomatic;480214So now we're hypothesizing some sort of "racist panic" in which completely innocent people's actions are misinterpreted as the acts of a wide-spanning racist organization that exists only to commit racism? Is that where we are?

I thought we were there back in the 70s.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;480213Oh for fuck's sake. No one is using guilt by association. No one is accusing you of being a Nazi. The specific quote being responded to is this:

"It isn't part of what they are designed to do, and it isn't a product of what they do. "

If there is even one racist gaming circle anywhere in the world, then racism is a product of gaming. Not the biggest one, not a major one, not even necessarily an important one. But it is a product. It's there.

And I clarified what I meant by that post. I wasn't saying there are no racist gamers, I was saying that racism isn't a natural outcome of gaming.  

QuoteStop flying off the handle. Someone made the statement that racist gaming does not exist.

I made clear that this wasn't what I was saying, and as far as I can tell no one has been arguing this at all.

QuoteAnd it does. It's there. It's a thing. And saying it doesn't exist isn't helpful. You can point out that we aren't all like that - and we're not. You can point out that those groups are a weird and hated fringe - and they are. But they exist. They are a product of our culture. We can talk about it or we can ignore it and hope it goes away. Those are both valid options.

This is just a strawman frank. no one is seriously suggestiing there aren't racist gamers out there who play the game in a racist way. But they have little to nothing to do with the whole debate from the OP. If you want to talk about these fringe groups and how bad they are, I think we are all on board there. But they aren't a byproduct of the fantasy genre, they aren't a byproduct of dungeons and dragons, they aren't a byproduct of orcs being evil, etc.

QuoteBut outright saying it doesn't exist isn't in any way helpful. You can give the lie to that in like 20 seconds with a Google search. Again, we aren't providing links because Pundit wants us to not link to those assholes. But they are real. They are a product of gaming, like it or not. I don't like it, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

I think we are vacilating on the term "product" here. In my original post I meant as a direct and natural outcome (i.e. his decision to commit a hatecrime was a product of years of indoctrination into white supremacist culture). These racist gaming groups are product of their own racism, not a product of D&D. They would still be racist whether D&D existed or not. To argue any kind of direct causation here is just pure sophistry in my opinion.

Quote from: Axiomatic;480214So now we're hypothesizing some sort of "racist panic" in which completely innocent people's actions are misinterpreted as the acts of a wide-spanning racist organization that exists only to commit racism? Is that where we are?

That isn't what I am saying. My point is that the arguments being made during the 80s hysteria are the same kind being employed by the OP. I think he represents a small fraction of the gaming community. Someone you mostly see online but not in real life. So I am not worried about a wide-spread hysteria over racism in gaming.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;480172And yet: Stormfront RPG groups exist (no link to spare Pundit hair pulling). So it is part of what RPGs do, whether intentionally or not.

You can say "People don't use these books to promote a racist message!" but what you're really saying is that to the best of your knowledge you don't use D&D books to spread a racist message. Because the reality that there are people who do use D&D to spread a racist message is rather inescapable. It's a nasty part of our world and the internet, but they really do exist. You can go to Stormfront or any of a number of other "White Pride" sites with RPG conversation on them and have a discussion about how exterminating evil races psyches you up to get rid of undesirables in the real world. They also find and exalt the racist messages hidden in Vampire, and other games.

You may not play RPGs that way. Heck, I'm pretty sure you don't. I don't play RPGs that way. I don't find that the fact that those people are out there hinders me from playing enjoying RPGs. But it is plumb ignorant to say that RPGs aren't used to spread a racist message, because there are people right now in the real world who are using RPGs to spread a racist message.

-Frank

If Stormfront members eat Frosted Flakes, does that mean Kelloggs is a racist company? What if they say Frosted Flakes taste good because the frosting is white? Is Kelloggs racist then?

Quote from: StormBringer;480188Absolutely, meaning can be imputed onto anything, really.  As I mentioned earlier in the thread, that is why our lizard hindbrains aren't in charge anymore; we developed the larger part that is capable of all kinds of wonder and horror.  Sometimes simultaneously.

However, the person that placed the cigar and the person that declares the most outlandish interpretation should be the ones whose motives are most suspect, and without rock solid evidence to the contrary, whose motives should never be taken at face value.  

On the one hand, you have the artist, who innocently claims "It's just a cigar", albeit a large pink cigar with a bulbous end and oddly pendulous pouch on the other end.  This is the critical function of art in a society; not painting portraits or still life, but showing the less savoury side of human nature.  Does this mean the OP is some kind of artist?  No, not just because of that.  RPGs have a set of guidelines that are more rigid or less, like any other form.  Novels have expected forms, as do paintings or sculpture.  Great art has been created within those expectations, but occasionally even greater art has been created by expanding or ignoring those strictures.  'Rejecting complacency' could be one of the core principles in truly great art.

On the other hand, you have the hair-trigger outrage junkie.  Like the artist, by sheer force of the law of averages, they are going to be 'right' or 'prophetic' once in a while.  But also like the artist, there is a lot of pure shit to slog through getting there.  It does serve as a proper balance for the artist, however; sometimes, a crucifix in a jar of piss is just a crucifix in a jar of piss.  While the artist may feel they made some profound statement or meaningful commentary, the habitual critic reminds them that they should probably stop trying so damn hard all the time.

In both hands, we have a group of people who feel their eyes truly have no scales, while everyone else is still shrouded by the veil of their own ignorance.  Which is why both of these cases must be approached with the highest level of suspicion.

What does that have to do with the OP dude?  Not much, really.  I have a feeling someone is taking their first Ethnic Studies class or something, and wanted to be a bit provocative on the web (someone phone the newspaper with that scoop!).  As I have mentioned, that rant is a bog-standard op-ed format.  If you don't agree with the delineation of the problem, it should be no surprise that you won't agree with the conclusion or the solution.  Conversely, if you don't agree with the premise, the authour isn't really talking to you anyway.  You can still vocally disagree; that is how we learn about ourselves and each other.

Speaking of which, when are we going to pick up the Amber game again?  Threads like these keep pushing it down on the 'longest thread' list, and I need to bulk up the post count on that one.  You need to find a half-dozen jackholes like yourself to take over abandoned characters.  See to it, my standing depends on your actions!  

Hey, you're the head honcho of that thread brother, get to work!

Quote from: FrankTrollman;480213Oh for fuck's sake. No one is using guilt by association. No one is accusing you of being a Nazi. The specific quote being responded to is this:



If there is even one racist gaming circle anywhere in the world, then racism is a product of gaming. Not the biggest one, not a major one, not even necessarily an important one. But it is a product. It's there.

Stop flying off the handle. Someone made the statement that racist gaming does not exist. And it does. It's there. It's a thing. And saying it doesn't exist isn't helpful. You can point out that we aren't all like that - and we're not. You can point out that those groups are a weird and hated fringe - and they are. But they exist. They are a product of our culture. We can talk about it or we can ignore it and hope it goes away. Those are both valid options.

But outright saying it doesn't exist isn't in any way helpful. You can give the lie to that in like 20 seconds with a Google search. Again, we aren't providing links because Pundit wants us to not link to those assholes. But they are real. They are a product of gaming, like it or not. I don't like it, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

-Frank

I don't agree. The racism would not be a product of their gaming. Racist game sessions would be a product of their gaming. The difference is, the game is all that's brought by the game, the racism is entirely brought by the players.

Edit: Honestly, didn't Kyle point this out, like PAGES ago? It's still true, nothing's changed in this regard.