Quote from: Benoist;480150I am guessing that orcs in your game are not irredeemibly evil.

Part of the interest of the situation the PCs are in is that they do not know the answer to that question. Orcs in Ptolus have a particular history and origins, and Erarht himself has a history and origins, which both influence the situation at play. Sorry I can't be more specific.



As a result, there is, on some people's parts at least, some resentment against half-orcs, while others, motivated by different beliefs, or concerns (such as coin) will not look too far beyond the size of a size of an individual's purse, ethics, what have you. The world isn't black-and-white (which does not mean there could be no such thing as ultimate good and evil). It's made of people with different personalities, allegiances, opinions, needs and wants, etc.

To answer your question more directly, it'd be actually counteproductive for me as GM to say "here's how metaphysics work in the world and that's *it*". I prefer the players to experience the world through their characters. From there, they can decide for themselves what they choose to believe as far as the Gods, good and evil, etc are concerned.

So the question would be if your orcs were an irredeemible evil would you allow these 2 half orc PCs? And if you did then how would the world treat them if all other orcs are snarling monsters?

Hope my previous paragraphs answer your question.

Understand its hard to coment on a game in progress

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;480131Media should always be taken seriously.  And if I want a mindless diversion, I'll raid in WoW.

And, colonialism is bullshit, I salute the OP for taking his gaming a bit more seriously.  In settings like Glorantha, you can broach these issues and still have fun. It's not hard.

Sure you can, but you don't have to. Also, taking the game seriously as a game is fine, but trying to say the game reflects serious real world attitudes inherently is what's bullshit. In your game you can broach whatever subjects you want, but that doesn't make your game "better" in any way than someone's game that's designed just to imaginarily kill things and take their stuff, whether it be orcs or anything else.

Oh, and if I don't wan to take "media" or anything else seriously all the time, that's my choice, and I'll decide what I should or shouldn't do at any given moment for myself. It's nice that you don't want your RPGing to be a mindless diversion, but maybe I do. I can't stand raiding in WoW.

Quote from: jibbajibba;480154Understand its hard to coment on a game in progress

Yes. Now that I think about it, I don't think I ever go out during the brainstorm session with the players (where you talk about the game, what they want out of it, what characters they want to play etc) and tell them positive, OOC stuff like "this is how the world actually works". Or at least I try to avoid this kind of statements. I instead tell them a lot of "you've heard stories" and "some say" while "others say" and so on. I describe the world from the world's perspective, not from my notes.

Of course, later, if the players play a few years in that setting, they'll come to know some stuff, and it'll inform their choices and future characters and whatnot. I have no problem whatsoever with that. It's something they've earned by being part of the world for so many months/years, right? It's cool, because they become more and more aware of what's going on.

Quote from: Axiomatic;480141But on the other hand, even if the person who put the cigar there declares that it is just a cigar and has absolutely no other connotations whatsoever, that doesn't make it so.

Neither does your assertion that it does have more meaning than that. We could go on this way all week. Either provide a more compelling argument than "you're wrong", or get comfortable being ignored.

Quote from: Sigmund;480162Neither does your assertion that it does have more meaning than that. We could go on this way all week. Either provide a more compelling argument than "you're wrong", or get comfortable being ignored.

I think with this situation there are two important measures: intent and effect. Either way, I don't think either of these have been demonstrated with RPGs. The games obviously don't encourage racism, violence, colonialism, etc. It isn't part of what they are designed to do, and it isn't a product of what they do.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480167I think with this situation there are two important measures: intent and effect. Either way, I don't think either of these have been demonstrated with RPGs. The games obviously don't encourage racism, violence, colonialism, etc. It isn't part of what they are designed to do, and it isn't a product of what they do.

I agree yet again.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480167I think with this situation there are two important measures: intent and effect. Either way, I don't think either of these have been demonstrated with RPGs. The games obviously don't encourage racism, violence, colonialism, etc. It isn't part of what they are designed to do, and it isn't a product of what they do.

And yet: Stormfront RPG groups exist (no link to spare Pundit hair pulling). So it is part of what RPGs do, whether intentionally or not.

You can say "People don't use these books to promote a racist message!" but what you're really saying is that to the best of your knowledge you don't use D&D books to spread a racist message. Because the reality that there are people who do use D&D to spread a racist message is rather inescapable. It's a nasty part of our world and the internet, but they really do exist. You can go to Stormfront or any of a number of other "White Pride" sites with RPG conversation on them and have a discussion about how exterminating evil races psyches you up to get rid of undesirables in the real world. They also find and exalt the racist messages hidden in Vampire, and other games.

You may not play RPGs that way. Heck, I'm pretty sure you don't. I don't play RPGs that way. I don't find that the fact that those people are out there hinders me from playing enjoying RPGs. But it is plumb ignorant to say that RPGs aren't used to spread a racist message, because there are people right now in the real world who are using RPGs to spread a racist message.

-Frank

Quote from: FrankTrollman;480172And yet: Stormfront RPG groups exist (no link to spare Pundit hair pulling). So it is part of what RPGs do, whether intentionally or not.

You will need to explain what this is to me, as I missed the link and haven't heard of it before. If it is what I think it is, then it has nothing to do with the nature of RPGs. It simply reflects some fringe users beliefs. Just like skinhead punk rock and other hate music says nothing about punk rock, music or punk rock.

QuoteYou can say "People don't use these books to promote a racist message!" but what you're really saying is that to the best of your knowledge you don't use D&D books to spread a racist message. Because the reality that there are people who do use D&D to spread a racist message is rather inescapable.

Except that isn't what I am saying. Every medium can be used to advance an agenda. No one is denying that. What we deny is that your typical gaming group using evil orcs or what have you are in any way contributing to racism. When I say it isn't a product of what rpgs do, I mean it isn't a natural byproduct of playing RPGs. It isn't something that stems as a natural outgrowth of typical fantasy settings with evil orcs, demons, etc.

QuoteIt's a nasty part of our world and the internet, but they really do exist. You can go to Stormfront or any of a number of other "White Pride" sites with RPG conversation on them and have a discussion about how exterminating evil races psyches you up to get rid of undesirables in the real world. They also find and exalt the racist messages hidden in Vampire, and other games.

Look I care about racism and have followed hate groups for a long time (both because of my personal background and where I lived as a kid and because I am in an interacial marriage). But just because a bunch of racists are finding hidden racist messages in orcs, vampires, etc, doesn't mean those messages are there or anyone else cares about them.

QuoteYou may not play RPGs that way. Heck, I'm pretty sure you don't. I don't play RPGs that way. I don't find that the fact that those people are out there hinders me from playing enjoying RPGs. But it is plumb ignorant to say that RPGs aren't used to spread a racist message, because there are people right now in the real world who are using RPGs to spread a racist message.

-Frank

And once again, that isn't what I am trying to say. Of course there are people out there using every medium imaginable to advance racism. But regular gamers aren't behind that effort and the kind of stuff the OP was talking about (just innocently including evil orcs in your game, etc) isn't contributing to that problem. Just because some loser skinhead equates orcs with black people or asians, that doesn't mean I can't have evil orcs in my game free of such associations. And I also question the efficacy of using RPGs to advance racist agendas. These people where they exist are a problem, but they are thankfully in an extreme minority.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;480172And yet: Stormfront RPG groups exist (no link to spare Pundit hair pulling). So it is part of what RPGs do, whether intentionally or not.

You can say "People don't use these books to promote a racist message!" but what you're really saying is that to the best of your knowledge you don't use D&D books to spread a racist message. Because the reality that there are people who do use D&D to spread a racist message is rather inescapable. It's a nasty part of our world and the internet, but they really do exist. You can go to Stormfront or any of a number of other "White Pride" sites with RPG conversation on them and have a discussion about how exterminating evil races psyches you up to get rid of undesirables in the real world. They also find and exalt the racist messages hidden in Vampire, and other games.

You may not play RPGs that way. Heck, I'm pretty sure you don't. I don't play RPGs that way. I don't find that the fact that those people are out there hinders me from playing enjoying RPGs. But it is plumb ignorant to say that RPGs aren't used to spread a racist message, because there are people right now in the real world who are using RPGs to spread a racist message.

-Frank

Patricia Pulling logic, replace racism with satanism and it reads like something straight out of The Pulling Report.

Pulling logic indeed. I cannot stand this nonsense.

Quote from: jeff37923;480176Patricia Pulling logic, replace racism with satanism and it reads like something straight out of The Pulling Report.

Major difference: the vast network of satanist terrorists were fictional. The human sacrifices they supposedly engaged in on a regular basis did not, in fact, occur. Militant hate groups are, however, real.

Getting concerned because someone is making statements that sound suspiciously like an entirely fictional group of cartoonish villains is silly. Getting concerned because someone is making statements that sound like an entirely real domestic terrorist organization that kills real human beings every month is... less silly.

-Frank

Quote from: jeff37923;480176Patricia Pulling logic, replace racism with satanism and it reads like something straight out of The Pulling Report.

Indeed.  Guilt by association is an ugly thing.

There are douchebags projecting their stuff onto the RPG games they play, and therefore RPGs spread racist messages? Give me a FUCKING break. That is total shortcut bullshit. Go fuck yourself with a sledgehammer, Frank.

I'm not sure which is more deliciously ironic:  Complaining about racism while using guilt by association as your argument, or using the very racists one claims to condemn as support for one's position.

Troll-man strikes again.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;480180Major difference: the vast network of satanist terrorists were fictional. The human sacrifices they supposedly engaged in on a regular basis did not, in fact, occur. Militant hate groups are, however, real.

Satanists exist. I certainly knew kids who played with the idea in middle and highschool. I think in both cases the association between hate groups/satanists and rpgs is vastly overblown. Causation is pretty much nil. Edit: agree the conspiracy was fictional but it is the same kind of argument.

I would agree that hategroups are more widespread and more of an actual problem. I just don't see how that relates to the OPs worry about standard campaigns, racism and colonialism.

-