Quote from: TristramEvans;479221I am perfectly willing to admit that I am racist against everything that is not human. If another intelligent race developed on Earth, in the real world, I would lead the charge to hunt and kill them off down to every last woman and child. Because there can only be one dominant species on a planet.

We did the same thing to the Neanderthals. And good riddance.

Actually, there's no evidence whatsoever that we did that. The Neanderthals seem to have done themselves in, as best as we can tell right now, due to a poorer ability to adapt to changes in their environment.

RPGPundit

Well, I was going to do as I said and look back at the thread to see why I apparently am the only one still addressing the topic, but honestly, by the time I got home I realized I don't give a fuck. I also haven't given two shits about alignment in D&D for awhile now, so I suppose I don't have much more to contribute. I've certainly made my opinion about the OP clear, and I've seen absolutely nothing to convince me to even consider changing my mind. Enjoy the alignment-bashing.

Quote from: RPGPundit;479292Actually, there's no evidence whatsoever that we did that. The Neanderthals seem to have done themselves in, as best as we can tell right now, due to a poorer ability to adapt to changes in their environment.

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And a bit of Neanderthal survives through us. Some of their genes contributed to our immunity system and it gave us an edge as we spread into territories they were well adapted to. But these genes seem to be linked to auto-immune diseases too.

Quote from: Sigmund;479121Are you kidding? I like Pseudo too, but that post is silly. You want outrage, there it is. He's grossly misrepresenting 90% of the posters who don't agree with him and belittling any opinion counter to his own. That's the worst way to argue a point, because he is leaving no room for being convinced. He's expressing his opinion as objective fact and discounting everyone else out of hand. I wouldn't be surprised if he hasn't even read most of what's been said by folks.

Possibly, but it is a more succinct version of what I have been getting at.

QuoteLook, I agree it's a silly topic, but that doesn't mean we aren't allowed to discuss it, especially when folks like Pseudo seriously try to defend Dray's ridiculous bullshit.

I am not complaining about the matter being discussed, just the manner in which it is discussed.  700 posts later, and the general idea still seems to be "How dare he comment on my preference in gaming!" on a site that regularly discusses various preferences in gaming.  And the entire first part of the thread was full of posts where people seemed to be shocked (shocked, I tell you!) at the very notion that wiping out hundreds of was akin to genocide.

Is that taking things a bit far?  Sure.  Is the act of association itself completely invalid?  No, of course not.  You can say it's wrong, it's brilliant, the guy is a cocksmock or a genius.  Or, you can ignore it.

Consider this, however:  The OP is almost a textbook example of an op-ed piece.  The first part is laying out the problem as the author sees it.  The second part is the author's solution to the problem they just described.  If you read the first part, generally you agree with the assessment of the problem, and are ready to read about their solution.  If you don't agree with the first part, you clearly aren't going to agree with the second part.  That's how they are written.

QuoteIf I thought for one minute that there was actually racism in D&D I'd be right beside Dray in condemning it, but the entire idea is ludicrous. It's an escapist fantasy game, with very little that based in reality. Even it's portrayal of Medieval society and technology is only loosely based on historical fact. It's a game, nothing more. That it can be used by folks with a more sinister agenda (like Dray himself it seems) is sad, but does not speak to the point of the game itself.

Absolutely, but it doesn't read like he is saying there is racism in the game.  He's saying there is racism in a particular style of play.  As he sees it.

As in my previous post, in a long term campaign I would find endless kill-them-and-take-their-stuff dungeon crawls tedious.  But I don't think it is unreasonable to make the connection he did, just over the top.  And it reveals a far, far more interesting discussion; namely regarding the nature of 'evil' (and 'good' for that matter).  But again, if these are not topics of interest, then they can be safely ignored.

Which still doesn't mean you are forbidden to say the guy is a complete douchenozzle, if you are so inclined.  I just found the ridiculous arguments and hue and cry more than a bit silly.  Especially, as I have mentioned, while there were far more interesting topics to discuss from the post.

Quote from: StormBringer;479300Possibly, but it is a more succinct version of what I have been getting at.


I am not complaining about the matter being discussed, just the manner in which it is discussed.  700 posts later, and the general idea still seems to be "How dare he comment on my preference in gaming!" on a site that regularly discusses various preferences in gaming.  And the entire first part of the thread was full of posts where people seemed to be shocked (shocked, I tell you!) at the very notion that wiping out hundreds of was akin to genocide.

Is that taking things a bit far?  Sure.  Is the act of association itself completely invalid?  No, of course not.  You can say it's wrong, it's brilliant, the guy is a cocksmock or a genius.  Or, you can ignore it.

Consider this, however:  The OP is almost a textbook example of an op-ed piece.  The first part is laying out the problem as the author sees it.  The second part is the author's solution to the problem they just described.  If you read the first part, generally you agree with the assessment of the problem, and are ready to read about their solution.  If you don't agree with the first part, you clearly aren't going to agree with the second part.  That's how they are written.


Absolutely, but it doesn't read like he is saying there is racism in the game.  He's saying there is racism in a particular style of play.  As he sees it.

As in my previous post, in a long term campaign I would find endless kill-them-and-take-their-stuff dungeon crawls tedious.  But I don't think it is unreasonable to make the connection he did, just over the top.  And it reveals a far, far more interesting discussion; namely regarding the nature of 'evil' (and 'good' for that matter).  But again, if these are not topics of interest, then they can be safely ignored.

Which still doesn't mean you are forbidden to say the guy is a complete douchenozzle, if you are so inclined.  I just found the ridiculous arguments and hue and cry more than a bit silly.  Especially, as I have mentioned, while there were far more interesting topics to discuss from the post.

The way I read it, he's saying D&D by design is racist. That's what I object to. In the end though, you are right and it really doesn't matter. I have fun with the folks I game with and what Dray thinks is irrelevant. Hey, the upside is we got to swear at each other. I love having opportunities to insult folks that I know aren't gonna take it so personally Still, stop channeling Seanchai, you're giving me nightmares

Quote from: RPGPundit;479292Actually, there's no evidence whatsoever that we did that. The Neanderthals seem to have done themselves in, as best as we can tell right now, due to a poorer ability to adapt to changes in their environment.

RPGPundit

I did not know that, and it's interesting. I was actually just going for hyperbolic sarcasm.

Quote from: boulet;479299And a bit of Neanderthal survives through us. Some of their genes contributed to our immunity system and it gave us an edge as we spread into territories they were well adapted to. But these genes seem to be linked to auto-immune diseases too.

That, also, is interesting.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;479286I tend to ignore alignment in D&D and focus more on individual actions (if it is the kind of campaign where cosmic good and evil matter).

The powers checks system from Ravenloft is another way to impact PC behavior. The thing I like about it is it actually lays out each action specifically and assigns a rough percentage chance of the dark powers taking notice. There are still a few on the list that require the subjective ruling of the GM (was the PC aware he desecrated a holy object or did he do it out of ignorance?) others are pretty cut and dry (Routine Torture, Major Betrayal).

IMO individual actions is how alignment was always meant to work anyway, at least for PCs. The player would play the character any way they want, but certain actions would result in alignment drift. Drift too far and you're getting a new team jersey. The divine and semi-divine (which includes infernal) work differently, being embodiments of certain ideas/ideals. Gah.... I wasn't supposed to care about this topic Well, I am human after all:)

Quote from: boulet;479299And a bit of Neanderthal survives through us. Some of their genes contributed to our immunity system and it gave us an edge as we spread into territories they were well adapted to. But these genes seem to be linked to auto-immune diseases too.

That is interesting. I love science.

Quote from: boulet;479299And a bit of Neanderthal survives through us. Some of their genes contributed to our immunity system and it gave us an edge as we spread into territories they were well adapted to. But these genes seem to be linked to auto-immune diseases too.

Well at least now I know which dead people to blame.

Quote from: Peregrin;479315Well at least now I know which dead people to blame.

Ya know what I think is cool? Every one of our ancestors all the way back through time survived long enough to contribute to our existence. I don't blame them for much, cuz without them I wouldn't be here

Quote from: Sigmund;479316Ya know what I think is cool? Every one of our ancestors all the way back through time survived long enough to contribute to our existence. I don't blame them for much, cuz without them I wouldn't be here

That's true.  And diseases like the one I have are relatively rare, so in the long-run it's a net-gain (cue doctors talking about the rise of autoimmune diseases in industrialized nations, blah blah).

My post was just really dry humor.

Anyway, I'm not sure you can get more off-topic than autoimmune diseases, so, yeah.

Quote from: Sigmund;479309The way I read it, he's saying D&D by design is racist. That's what I object to. In the end though, you are right and it really doesn't matter. I have fun with the folks I game with and what Dray thinks is irrelevant. Hey, the upside is we got to swear at each other. I love having opportunities to insult folks that I know aren't gonna take it so personally Still, stop channeling Seanchai, you're giving me nightmares

Agreed, on all points!  

Drop me a note next time I am possessed, I will sever the connection or get an exorcism or something before it becomes public.  

Quote from: boulet;479299And a bit of Neanderthal survives through us. Some of their genes contributed to our immunity system and it gave us an edge as we spread into territories they were well adapted to. But these genes seem to be linked to auto-immune diseases too.

Hmmm.....This gives me an idea....

Human + Elf = Half-Elf
Human + Orc = Half-Orc
Elf + Orc = Human

Psuedoephedrine's settings are some of the most interesting around. I'm including them with published "professional" settings. I reckon' it's because it's informed by what he has read. Kadish went down pretty well with my crew, a classic (for us) ending, with the last surviving PC realizing too late that the prized box of treausre they had schemed and fought over from the beginning of the campaign was actually an IED, switched by another PC he had just perished. What would you expect from a campaign titled, Land Without Pity.

And Stormbringer, next time brother, don't do the interpreting for dodgy open-ed pieces but rather formulate a post of themes which you think are interesting from the piece. I see hints of an extremely interesting discussion about the nature of good and evil in a setting's context and how this reflects on playstyle in your replies....something you and I have gone a few rounds on before.

Regards,
David R