Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;479055I recently invented a time machine to go back and find the last substantive, insightful or valuable comment you made about roleplaying on this forum, but it turns out that the machine won't go to "Never".

I'm bored of telling people they're wrong.

Quote from: Vmerc@;479079I suppose next you'll say he's puerile.  Are you talking to him or me in this quote because I have yet to comprehend the term parochial.  What small means I have are spent on whiskey.  Despite what you have been told, dictionaries are a luxury of which I rarely think.

Great, you're a bloviating cunt who doesn't even think his attempts at wit through, let alone anything more profound. Welcome to theRPGSite, you'll fit right in.

Quote from: Imperator;479100I think you are channeling Jack Vance, which is awesome

Reality check: I think he is simply trolling.

Quote from: Melan;479111Reality check: I think he is simply trolling.

But in style

Quote from: jibbajibba;479097Totally agreeing with David R's comments.
 
Also I totally mentioned killing dragons way back in the thread so don't dare say we didn't cover it
 
I would say Dragons totally have free will and could decide to be good or evil. I think the study of dragons is really more about the corruption of absolute power than about inherent 'evilness'. I woudl put demons and devils int eh same category.
The idea that devils and demons are inherently evil is almost counter intuitive because the whole point of the judeo-christian 'Devil' is that he chose through his own free will to take an "evil path" (although reading the source material he does nothing actually evil just refused to obey without question, then pursuades Eve to disobey in order to gain knowledge, but now we are getting all gnostic and irrelevant) so making him inherently evil is a bit like turning him into a big, barky, dog.
 
Sigmund's comments which focus on 'it's all make beleive so none of it matters' is a bit odd in a forum where we talk about RPGs and world building and immersion and all that stuff. One wonders why someone with that world view would get emeshed in this thread at all.

For dragons I'm happy to use the standard "colour coded for your convenience" dragons in D&D, though if you wanted to invoke actual biology...psychopath may be the way to go. Vaguely remembering the "triune brain" of mammals theory, humans can be thought of as having basically a 3-part brain system: the reptilian chassis + a system that expands the emotional range and is responsible for mammal family behaviours + the cortex that deals with higher thought and imagination and so on.
So reptiles lack the brain sectors (the limbic system I think?) that generates mammalian emotions. A couple of feelings (e.g. "motor aggression", your basic fear) are in the earlier part of the brain, but functions like "empathy" or "love" aren't really possible.
 
(I have a lizard, and its never gotten used to being handled and/or given up on hiding when I'm nearby).
 
On the demons: I think a D&D demon *has* free will, but has actively chosen evil. The 2nd ed. lifecycle for these was: evil bastard dies, their soul goes to the Lower Planes and becomes a 'larva', those that aren't eaten immediately get promoted through the ranks, changing types periodically. Even a "baby" demon was a completely rotten CE bastard in life, and the more advanced ones will have clocked up aeons of time getting more set in their ways.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;479054Morrow and I have had it out many times on the topic of his moral "theory", and it should be well known by now that his understanding of morality and psychology is ill-informed, ill-thought through, and serves mostly as an expression of his own parochial view of how people ought to act rather than something that deserves to be called a "theory".

"Don't waste my time with telepathy. One of the most tremendously intellectually dishonest things people do around here on a consistent basis is pretend to read other people's minds."

Quote from: StormBringer;479065Oh, trust me, you and the other outrage addicts have 'whiny bitch' pretty much covered.

Keep flinging around "outrage" instead of actually addressing my posts. If you can quote actual posts of mine that contain "outrage"... true "outrage", rather than simply my opinion about the OP, then I will stand corrected. Otherwise, you reveal yourself for the pointless whiny bitch you are being. I don't like referring to you that way Storm, because up until now I've usually enjoyed and agreed with what you post. I haven't seen you do this before in a thread I've been involved in. See, whiny bitches complain about what other's in a thread are posting, ignoring the OP and the topic. If you need me to, I can point out where you are doing this. One example would be the post I've quoted above. Like I've said, this surprises me, because the one who used to appear in threads to threadcrap and insult everyone else participating used to be Seanchai, and I thought you hated that as much as everyone else around here, but here you are doing it. A topic was raised, we have all addressed this topic directly, expressing our opinions on the topic and why we hold those opinions. All you have done is come in here whining about how we're all wrong for even talking about this. You have no point here. You have no effective counter-argument. You're only here to troll, which really disappoints me.

What we're talking about in this thread is the quote Benny included in the OP, and in that quote the individual quoted talks about D&D contains racist ideas because orcs are metaphors for minorities. Are you telling me you support this conclusion, or are you just trying to tell us what we are and are not allowed to discuss on this forum? The latter is what Seanchai used to try to do, are you filling his shoes now?

Also, you do realize this thread has nothing to do with politics. I'm pretty left wing on most issues, but the bullshit espoused by this Dray feller has nothing to do with actual politics because orcs aren't real. They don't need defending.

I sincerely hope you can get your head out of your ass soon, I don't like the Storm I'm seeing in this thread. Perhaps you should go back to your Citadel if what we're talking about here disturbs you so much.

Quote from: StormBringer;479067I probably should have more carefully read this part of the thread, instead of catching the last few bits after I forgot I replied to Peregrin's post on the first page of a 6 page thread.  Then I only would have had to post "Agreed" and save myself the time.

Are you kidding? I like Pseudo too, but that post is silly. You want outrage, there it is. He's grossly misrepresenting 90% of the posters who don't agree with him and belittling any opinion counter to his own. That's the worst way to argue a point, because he is leaving no room for being convinced. He's expressing his opinion as objective fact and discounting everyone else out of hand. I wouldn't be surprised if he hasn't even read most of what's been said by folks.

Look, I agree it's a silly topic, but that doesn't mean we aren't allowed to discuss it, especially when folks like Pseudo seriously try to defend Dray's ridiculous bullshit.

If I thought for one minute that there was actually racism in D&D I'd be right beside Dray in condemning it, but the entire idea is ludicrous. It's an escapist fantasy game, with very little that based in reality. Even it's portrayal of Medieval society and technology is only loosely based on historical fact. It's a game, nothing more. That it can be used by folks with a more sinister agenda (like Dray himself it seems) is sad, but does not speak to the point of the game itself.

Quote from: Vmerc@;479079Rare is the day I pad my posts with words.  Most I can usually summon for the task is straw.

Having turned down academic pursuits as a waste of time, I came to this site to rub shoulders with my betters and I see my luck holds.  Though cudgeling a common intellect with your advanced tools of mind is, while fair in a universal sense, still cruel.

I dont question the motives of those with the rod.  I'm only thankful when the beatings cease.



I suppose next you'll say he's puerile.  Are you talking to him or me in this quote because I have yet to comprehend the term parochial.  What small means I have are spent on whiskey.  Despite what you have been told, dictionaries are a luxury of which I rarely think.

Brilliant. I like you

Quote from: jibbajibba;479097Sigmund's comments which focus on 'it's all make beleive so none of it matters'  is a bit odd in a forum where we talk about RPGs and world building and immersion and all that stuff. One wonders why someone with that world view would get emeshed in this thread at all.

Because the OP's whole idea is silly. You're correct, I like games that contain the attempt to be taken seriously, and where the writer, or GM or both pay attention to the details. However, this Dray feller is not talking about playing these games, Dray is trying to tell us there's real world racism inherently contained in this imaginary game. He's presenting an argument that at the same time tries to convince us both that his argument is beyond reproach, and that anyone who tries is either racist themselves or ignorant. He's trying to convince us his view is the One True Way. When have we ever shied away from pointing out the folly in that line of argument on this forum?

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;479110Great, you're a bloviating cunt who doesn't even think his attempts at wit through, let alone anything more profound. Welcome to theRPGSite, you'll fit right in.

Brother, you sure do participate quite a bit for someone with such a low opinion of his fellow posters. Why are you here? do you need us to belittle in order to feel superior, or are you trying to educate us poor, ignorant souls in your infinite benevolence?

What is your stand on the OP again? You support his opinion on the inherent racism of D&D why? Or is this the "ignore the topic and just insult people" portion of the thread?

Quote from: jibbajibba;479097Also I totally mentioned killing dragons way back in the thread so don't dare say we didn't cover it

And your feeling about the Holmes Basic D&D expecting players to fight very young or young dragons between the ages of 1 and 15 and offering subdual, where "a dragon can be sold or forced to serve the character or characters who subdued it" (Should we add an endorsement of slavery to the sins of D&D?), as an alternative to killing them?  And your feelings about Keep on the Borderlands being full of situations where the PCs are raiding the lair of intelligent humanoids where they will encounter humanoid females and their young?

As for the Judeo-Christian Devil, there are various interpretations of who or what he is, ranging from a servant of God to a dualist anti-God.  I personally liked the take on Hell in the movie "Dark Angel: The Ascent" where the demons in Hell actually bowed down before God and weren't actually Evil.  Punishing evil souls was simply their job.  But is this really relevant to what Devils and Demons are in D&D (where, in 3.5 they have the word "Always" in front of their alignment) or how they are typically played in role-playing games?

Quote from: Imperator;479112But in style

I agree. That's the kind of troll I can appreciate.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;479114For dragons I'm happy to use the standard "colour coded for your convenience" dragons in D&D, though if you wanted to invoke actual biology...psychopath may be the way to go. Vaguely remembering the "triune brain" of mammals theory, humans can be thought of as having basically a 3-part brain system: the reptilian chassis + a system that expands the emotional range and is responsible for mammal family behaviours + the cortex that deals with higher thought and imagination and so on.
So reptiles lack the brain sectors (the limbic system I think?) that generates mammalian emotions. A couple of feelings (e.g. "motor aggression", your basic fear) are in the earlier part of the brain, but functions like "empathy" or "love" aren't really possible.
 
(I have a lizard, and its never gotten used to being handled and/or given up on hiding when I'm nearby).
 
On the demons: I think a D&D demon *has* free will, but has actively chosen evil. The 2nd ed. lifecycle for these was: evil bastard dies, their soul goes to the Lower Planes and becomes a 'larva', those that aren't eaten immediately get promoted through the ranks, changing types periodically. Even a "baby" demon was a completely rotten CE bastard in life, and the more advanced ones will have clocked up aeons of time getting more set in their ways.

But the issue is, if we're to believe Dray's defenders, can the "evil" dragons be redeemed? Also, redeemable or not, does the fact they're imaginary reptiles mean that its ok to imaginarily kill their imaginary babies? Are they able to rear their young? Pseudo will want to know.

Quote from: jibbajibba;479097The idea that devils and demons are inherently evil is almost counter intuitive because the whole point of the judeo-christian 'Devil' is that he chose through his own free will to take an "evil path" (although reading the source material he does nothing actually evil just refused to obey without question, then pursuades Eve to disobey in order to gain knowledge, but now we are getting all gnostic and irrelevant) so making him inherently evil is a bit like turning him into a big, barky, dog.

.

I think the issue of evil and free will gets very complicated in real-world theology, but devils and demons are a fictionalized version of the myth (and some of the content is drawn from other traditions IMO) so I don't see any issue with just saying they are created evil (in fact in most games I've played demons and devils are just minions of evil gods anyways....so you don't have the same issue you have in Christianity where the devil started as an angel).