Quote from: Vmerc@;478945This is why I think responding to most of what you say is not worth my time.  You type faster than you think or read.

I never claimed a preference.  My post is about Cosmology A and Cosmology B being equally valid.  Others have expressed preferences.  You don't pay any more attention to their reasons than you did to my premise.

You aren't conversing.  You're just typing.

Opinions and preferences are valid as opinions and preferences. But in anything creative, creative decisions have purpose. Things like villains and viewpoint characters exist, and take specific forms, for specific reasons.

Ozymandias and Bowser are both valid villains, but I don't think anyone would be interested in the two of them swapping places. Mainly because the kinds of stories they are useful for are more or less opposite.

So the validity of more than one thing in theory still says nothing about its utility in context.

Your premise doesn't build to any conclusion, and doesn't answer my question.

Utility in context is too compex a term for my average mind.  You must seek your answers elsewhere.

Quote from: Benoist;478892Hard to know. Are you thinking of any particular details that struck you especially in this regard?

Mainly the fact that the evil rises in the east. The villian was a formerly loved leader who turns to evil. The orcs are former good people corrupted by the evil leader. The evil armies come in strength and with powerful tools of war, unprovoked. The evil leader corrupts another formerly good person over to the side of evil, catching the good people in between them. Stuff like that. Not the overarching story, just the way it gets unfolded. As I said, it's just something that stands out to me, and not really that relevant to the current discussion, except to say that I doubt very seriously if Tolkien had black people in mind when writing about orcs.

Quote from: daniel_ream;478900The general literary consensus I'm familiar with is that Tolkien did not set out to write a specific WWII allegory, and the fact that so many people tried to interpret LotR as one annoyed him so much that he rather overstated the contrary opinion.  Certainly it is absurd to think that anyone living and writing through WWII would not have their writing be profoundly affected by the experience.

Which is what I'm getting at as well, and the purpose for getting at that was that if Tolkien was gonna villianise any real world culture, it would have been the folks killing his friends and countrymen I'd guess.

Quote from: StormBringer;478904You have been here long enough to know how much I enjoy discussion.  What I have been lately getting quite sick of is the sloppy bullshit that people are starting to think passes for arguments.  

"Ha ha!  Look at this asshole!  He doesn't think slaughtering by the thousands is fun!  What an asshole!  And while we are at it, I am going to completely meltdown because some random dude on the internet doesn't approve of my gaming style!"

I mean, fuck.  Even on bad days, discussion around here used to be about three orders of magnitude better than that.

The problem is this particular asshole goes far beyond saying it isn't fun, and in the process tries to underhandedly condemn anyone who disagrees with him. It's absolute bullshit, and what baffles me is how anyone can take the shit seriously.

Quote from: Sigmund;478954Mainly the fact that the evil rises in the east. The villian was a formerly loved leader who turns to evil. The orcs are former good people corrupted by the evil leader. The evil armies come in strength and with powerful tools of war, unprovoked. The evil leader corrupts another formerly good person over to the side of evil, catching the good people in between them. Stuff like that. Not the overarching story, just the way it gets unfolded. As I said, it's just something that stands out to me, and not really that relevant to the current discussion, except to say that I doubt very seriously if Tolkien had black people in mind when writing about orcs.

OK. (we're talking here, I'm not out to "get" you, bro). I think the image of Westernesse, and consequently, the presence of Evil in the East, owes more to mythology than anything. The West is were the departed go, where you find the Valar, where the sun sets.

Quote from: WikipediaIn Chinese Buddhism, the West represents movement toward the Buddha or enlightenment (see Journey to the West). The ancient Aztecs believed that the West was the realm of the great goddess of water, mist, and maize. In Ancient Egypt, the West was considered to be the portal to the netherworld, and is the cardinal direction regarded in connection with death, though not always with a negative connotation. Ancient Egyptians also believed that the Goddess Amunet was a personification of the West.[1] The Celts believed that beyond the western sea off the edges of all maps lay the Otherworld, or Afterlife.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West

Besides, the whole image of Westernesse, Men of the West, Numenor etc. predates the writing of the LOTR by a very, very long shot. It's part of the Silmarillion material.

I don't think this has anything to do with modern politics.

Likewise, the other points you raise strike me more as general images of war. Take the automatisation and "mindlessness" of war for instance, which I see more as being a feature of modern warfare in general, a feature that could be examplified more by the trenches of WW1 than the battlefields of WW2 IMO.

But hey, it's hard to tell. Maybe there's an element of transposition Tolkien wasn't aware of. I don't think there is, though.

Quote from: beejazz;478939On that note, I also think its silly to stock your fort with minions not ready for combat. So at this point we get back to "baby orc facehuggers" and saying that baby orcs are also combatants / not helpless / not innocent. Or we go back to a totally irrational take your daughter to work day.


Sorta victimizes them, though, doesn't it? Played well, I think it could be cool, but I'm totally fine with orcs just plain having alien cultural values. So yes they're bullied from above and they bully those below them, but they also just plain don't see anything wrong with an elf sandwich every now and again.

So you can't conceive of the scenario where orcs invade a local village, heroes track orcs back to their layer where orcs and their daughters are in the process of devouring alive the hapless villagers, tearing off bits as the peasants scream, the heroes proceed to slaughter the villainous orcs and their offspring, and then don't have angst-filled sessions of lamentations for the harsh cruelties of "life" afterward?

Quote from: Vmerc@Utility in context is too compex a term for my average mind.  You must seek your answers elsewhere.

Says the poster who claimed to have supported his taste in orcs with a "theological breakdown."

Quote from: SigmundSo you can't conceive of the scenario where orcs invade a local village, heroes track orcs back to their layer where orcs and their daughters are in the process of devouring alive the hapless villagers, tearing off bits as the peasants scream, the heroes proceed to slaughter the villainous orcs and their offspring, and then don't have angst-filled sessions of lamentations for the harsh cruelties of "life" afterward?

I mentioned cannibalism as a cultural thing, not an inherent nature thing, so in that context no.

Illithids, vampires, and ghouls eat people because of their nature, so that makes them fair game. Making the same true for orcs would be similar to fungus-orcs or violent babies. Because at that point the babies are a credible threat.

Otherwise, I don't see building a cosmology to justify killing helpless foes as my thing. Nor do I really see it as necessary, since the same kind of violent fun (minus babykilling) can be justified with non-magic cannibal orcs.

You keep typing and eventually you will find the answers you are looking for, it will just take a lot longer than if you stopped to think and read.  Take it from the expert, brother.  I don't begrudge a man his inner demons having myself served under their lashes so willingly and long.

Quote from: Sigmund;478956The problem is this particular asshole goes far beyond saying it isn't fun, and in the process tries to underhandedly condemn anyone who disagrees with him. It's absolute bullshit, and what baffles me is how anyone can take the shit seriously.

Is he your father or something?  When did everyone here suddenly start craving the approval of every random gamer on the internet?

Ye gods!  Some dude named Adam Dray doesn't approve of slaughtering faceless thousands!  In fact, he finds it distasteful!  String the fucking heretic up!

Seriously, aren't most of the outraged people here the ones that habitually whinge about 'manufactured outrage', usually on RPG.net?  It takes close to 650 posts (currently) to decide he's over-reacting?  It takes 650 posts to blow the guy off and move on with your gaming?

There hasn't been this much sand in this many vaginas since the last Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue after-party.

Quote from: boulet;478920Absolutely. But this brand of orc isn't supposed to illustrate this aspect of evil.  

Personally I'd prefer to follow a model like Stalin's red army. It's not that the troops are evil, it's that they're so (rightfully) scared of their evil master (and the other troop that's going to shoot them in the back if they start retreating) that they follow evil orders.

Quote from: beejazz;478939Yes, but 'loyalty' is part of 'magical compulsion.' It'd be silly to create minions who would rise against you.

On that note, I also think its silly to stock your fort with minions not ready for combat. So at this point we get back to "baby orc facehuggers" and saying that baby orcs are also combatants / not helpless / not innocent. Or we go back to a totally irrational take your daughter to work day.

Fair enough on both counts.

Quote from: StormBringer;478980Is he your father or something?  When did everyone here suddenly start craving the approval of every random gamer on the internet?

Is he your father?  Why are you leaping to his defense?

Quote from: StormBringer;478980Ye gods!  Some dude named Adam Dray doesn't approve of slaughtering faceless thousands!  In fact, he finds it distasteful!  String the fucking heretic up!

Oh he said a bit more then that, as my detailed post shows. (one of the only ones to actually quote the OPs words, none of yours do for example).

Quote from: StormBringer;478980Seriously, aren't most of the outraged people here the ones that habitually whinge about 'manufactured outrage', usually on RPG.net?  It takes close to 650 posts (currently) to decide he's over-reacting?  It takes 650 posts to blow the guy off and move on with your gaming?

It's the defense of his political leanings at all cost without evaluating the ridiculous stuff he actually did say that's keeping us here.

Quote from: StormBringer;478980There hasn't been this much sand in this many vaginas since the last Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue after-party.

Sexist.

I try not to get too riled up about it. In my campaign, most monstrous humanoids such Goblins, Orcs, and Trolls emerge from the depths of the earth fully grown....and possess a very limited degree of racial memories. A few minutes after birth, they can use tools and crudely speak. They're also argumentatively belligerent, and many of them crave the flesh of sentient beings.

The way that I arrange it is that monstrous humanoids can actually be parleyed with, and even sometimes reasoned with, though their first instinct is to kill. Honestly, my experience is that Orcs are only one of many problems the PCs have to deal with in the campaign...

Quote from: beejazz;478962Says the poster who claimed to have supported his taste in orcs with a "theological breakdown."


I mentioned cannibalism as a cultural thing, not an inherent nature thing, so in that context no.

Illithids, vampires, and ghouls eat people because of their nature, so that makes them fair game. Making the same true for orcs would be similar to fungus-orcs or violent babies. Because at that point the babies are a credible threat.

Otherwise, I don't see building a cosmology to justify killing helpless foes as my thing. Nor do I really see it as necessary, since the same kind of violent fun (minus babykilling) can be justified with non-magic cannibal orcs.

Cannibalism is a cultural thing for humans, but orcs aren't humans (or indeed anything at all outside of what I say they are, at least in my game anyway). Plus, since orcs and humans are not the same thing, would it even be cannibalism if orcs ate humans? Dude, this is all the same no matter what, because orcs aren't real. They are whatever we say they are in our games. I don't even have to build a cosmology to have that be true. All I have to do is say to my group, "In my game, orcs are human-eating monsters that are irredeemably evil" and that's what they are. It has nothing to do with cosmology or morality or any other -y because this is all imaginary. I don't need to construct some elaborate divine hypothesis or cultural speculation to make human eating orcs any more believable than dragons, fairies, elves, or wizards. What is it about orcs that makes them so immune to the same kinds of things you could do with completely home-brewed fantasy races or aliens or any number of other kinds of monsters/antagonists? Orc babies aren't actually babies any more real than lizard man babies or rot grub babies or harpy babies or dragon babies or slaad babies or rakshasa babies or ogre babies or any other kind of fantasy race babies. I'm saying my orcs are evil, human-eating, rotten souled killers that hate all other sentient races with a burning passion, love to watch other races suffer, and make fine cheese. I need no more explanation than that. This does not make me a racist or colonialist. There's nothing more I can say on the subject.

Quote from: StormBringer;478980Is he your father or something?  When did everyone here suddenly start craving the approval of every random gamer on the internet?

Ye gods!  Some dude named Adam Dray doesn't approve of slaughtering faceless thousands!  In fact, he finds it distasteful!  String the fucking heretic up!

Seriously, aren't most of the outraged people here the ones that habitually whinge about 'manufactured outrage', usually on RPG.net?  It takes close to 650 posts (currently) to decide he's over-reacting?  It takes 650 posts to blow the guy off and move on with your gaming?

There hasn't been this much sand in this many vaginas since the last Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue after-party.

Discussion does not equal approval-seeking, so you can keep that strawman. I would advise against bringing it up again though because you're just going to look stupid if you do, especially as many times as you yourself have "raged", as you put it, against a vast array of things around here. If I think he's a fucking pathetic moron, I'm perfectly within my rights to say so. This is a discussion forum, and we're discussing this. If you want to be discussing something else, then start some different threads and stop being a threadcrapping fucking troll. Are you missing Seanchai or something? If I didn't know any better I'd think you were his fucking sock-puppet. You can keep coming at me with this strawman bullshit about how this Dray pussy has done nothing to me (are you actually pulling this "Can't we all just get along" bullshit?), and all you'll do is reveal more about yourself and your lack of relevant input to the thread..

Really? String him up? Have I said string him up? I don't recall ever writing that, but if you can produce the post of mine where I said to string him up, I will stand corrected.

I don't know anything about "manufactured outrage" on RPG.net, I never even read that forum, let alone post on it, and you will almost never find me commenting on anything having to do with RPG.net, so if you are sincerely seeking an answer rather than just trying to "win", you will have to ask someone else.

Just to remind you, the post count for this thread is being increased as much by your posts as they are by mine or anyone else's. Food for thought.

There's only one vagina I'm seeing around here at the moment.

In summary, If I wanna talk about this or any other relevant topic on this forum, I'm damn well gonna for as long as the actual owner of the site allows. Nobody is sitting in your fucking house with a gun making you read this thread, so feel free to find or make threads more to your liking and stop being a whiny bitch in this one.