Quote from: BedrockBrendan;478644I agree. Pseudo's pictures of his campaign recently looked awesome, so I am sure his campaign rocks.

I could be wrong but I didn't think Pseudo was saying evil orcs were racist or an indication of racism (I think some others made that argument but I didn't see Pseudo make it), just that he felt it created problems with internal consistency and believability (he seemed to be saying IMO that he had trouble with the concepts of irredemediably evil orcs because he foud the whole concept hard to swallow). I think that is all a matter of personal preference and can conceive of a setting where evil orcs are explained in a believable fashion.

Oh I'm not saying he did, but that's the topic of the thread. I too prefer more morally grey fantasy settings, but the idea that if I chose to portray orcs as irredeemably evil as being an indication of my real world racism is absolutely ridiculous.

Quote from: Sigmund;478649Oh I'm not saying he did, but that's the topic of the thread. I too prefer more morally grey fantasy settings, but the idea that if I chose to portray orcs as irredeemably evil as being an indication of my real world racism is absolutely ridiculous.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I agree.

Quote from: jibbajibba;478635Welcome

My issue would just be how the characters in the setting behave towards the evil. And I don't think teh DM should make statements like 'All orcs in my game are evil', I think he should tell players what their PCs have heard about orcs and then when they encounter orcs they will think 'these guys are all evil (or whatever)' and they maybe or they may not be depending on whatever the GM has set up.

But whatever the PCs then hear through NPCs when the DM doesn't say anything still doesn't mean the orcs can't be, in fact, from a cosmological point of view, irredeemably evil. Would you have a problem if that were the case? (Your last sentence seems to say you'd be OK with it. I just want a confirmation)

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;478626For me this stuff is all setting-dependant. I can see a game world where orcs or vampires are just evil and that is all there is to it (with a few minor exceptions). I can also see a setting where things are more cultural with individual orcs and vampires breaking the mold.

Sure. For instance, contrast the diverse attitudes of the Kindred from Vampire with Chill in which vampires aren't so much people as malevolent manifestations of the Unknown.

Me, being a gamer, periodic GM, not a habitual forums-reader, nor an expert poster, just your average joe gamer - having been pointed in the direction of this site by a friend, have a question.

I come to this site, again - at the behest of a friend, speaking highly of it, and having registered go first to the site stickies for info, rules, and such, where I read about Swine gamers.  I take this as an underlying premise - an interesting idea - not one I had heard before but makes sense and when I think about it, partially explains why my former pokes into the world of game posting never took.  

"Interesting" I tell myself, whereon I proceed to my first non-stickied post - a monstrous ramble of some several thousand views, where the first thing to hit me in the face is some well-informed and supremely confident gamers defining what type of cosmological alignment structures are the "rich and hearty" kind and which are the "puerile hack and slash" kind.  Yes...someone actually used the word puerile in his critique of a game.  

After a whiff of this familiar scent - I have to ask my natural next thought:

Doesn't the "swine gamer" philosophy factor into the minds of those who are proclaiming that an absolute good/evil cosmological scheme is the mark of a lesser mind?

I ask, because the swine idea seemed to be a hallmark of this site, and in 50 some odd pages of thread I havent noticed a single use of the word "swine."

Quote from: Vmerc@;478660Doesn't the "swine gamer" philosophy factor into the minds of those who are proclaiming that an absolute good/evil cosmological scheme is the mark of a lesser mind?

The "Swine" thing is more the owner's (RPGPundit's) pet theory, if you will. That there are these pretentious gamers out there who are subverting the hobby, people who in fact hate gaming, but are eating the hobby from the inside, like a cancer, if you will.

You'll find that some people on the site have a sympathy or agreement of principle on the idea, but these are far from being the only users of the site. Others will use the term "swine" as a joke, a kind of jab aimed at the Pundit. Others yet don't give a shit about this.

In fact, you'll find that regularly, opponents of this whole "Swine" idea show up on the site to troll and/or engage in various levels of debate on this site. Some of them just post a few times and give up. Some of them stick around, either because they just can't let go and have to shoot at the Pundit's kneecaps whenever possible, or because they start to like some posters around and just fit in, for one reason or another, as strange as it may seem.

We're in fact a very varied bunch around here, much more varied than you'll find on many other RPG gaming message boards out there.

As to whether the whole "holier than thou" attitude towards gamers who'd use absolute cosmological scheme fits Pundit's definition of Swine, only he can confirm, but I'd wager this totally fits the profile.

Quote from: Vmerc@;478660I ask, because the swine idea seemed to be a hallmark of this site, and in 50 some odd pages of thread I havent noticed a single use of the word "swine."

I agree with Benoists description of the forum. I think if you hang out here a while you will get a good feel for the kind of place it is.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;478652Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I agree.

Heh, no problem bro I just have a hard time taking all this colonial and racism junk seriously in the context of RPG orcs. Does anyone honestly believe orcs were originally meant to be fantasy stand-ins for black people, or any other single real world racial/cultural group? Now a mish-mash of the darkest sides of humans I could believe, but then that's why they're evil and make good enemies, because they can symbolize our conquering of our own dark side. That's the usefulness of including absolute good and evil in RPGs, if one is so inclined. They can act as interactive mythology, allowing us to celebrate what we see as "good" and defeat that which we see as "evil" in a less passive manner than just reading stories.

Quote from: Sigmund;478664Heh, no problem bro I just have a hard time taking all this colonial and racism junk seriously in the context of RPG orcs. Does anyone honestly believe orcs were originally meant to be fantasy stand-ins for black people, or any other single real world racial/cultural group? Now a mish-mash of the darkest sides of humans I could believe, but then that's why they're evil and make good enemies, because they can symbolize our conquering of our own dark side. That's the usefulness of including absolute good and evil in RPGs, if one is so inclined. They can act as interactive mythology, allowing us to celebrate what we see as "good" and defeat that which we see as "evil" in a less passive manner than just reading stories.

I personally don't understand why people draw a connection there. I could only speculate as to whether it matters to them if it was the original intention behind orcs or not. My guess is many would argue it was more of a subconscious creation with guys like Tolkein. That their racial assumptions were making it onto the page. But even if this were the case (and I am not convinced it is), clearly gamers aren't making any connection between orcs and minorities. They are monsters in the game.

Quote from: Sigmund;478664Now a mish-mash of the darkest sides of humans I could believe, but then that's why they're evil and make good enemies, because they can symbolize our conquering of our own dark side.

Facing threats in the Underworld may be akin to conquering your own demons down in your subconscious. That's a plausible allegorical alternative. Like slaughtering the dragon and getting its treasure/saving the princess may symbolise a fight against one's dark side to save your conscience and your soul.

What really bothers me about the whole "orcs are stand-ins for minority groups" thing is that it is so damn narrow-minded, as though there could only be that explanation and that's *it*. All other possible explanations, including having no explanation at all, must be the result of either you making excuses, or you not realizing/caring about how this imagery is horrible and offensive.

That is completely stupid, in the true sense of the word.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;478665I personally don't understand why people draw a connection there. I could only speculate as to whether it matters to them if it was the original intention behind orcs or not. My guess is many would argue it was more of a subconscious creation with guys like Tolkein. That their racial assumptions were making it onto the page. But even if this were the case (and I am not convinced it is), clearly gamers aren't making any connection between orcs and minorities. They are monsters in the game.

I don't think anyone is claiming that gamers in general make a connection between orcs and minorities.  Even Adam Dray as quoted in the original post of this thread said that it didn't make you racist and most people simply didn't think about it.  

On the other hand, it would be equally absurd to make the opposite extreme of claiming that no RPG gamer is ever racist.  For example, I know there have been a few threads on the white supremacy website Storm Front like: "Learn all you need to know about race from Dungeons and Dragons". (search on the topic for the original thread)

Quote from: jhkim;478674I don't think anyone is claiming that gamers in general make a connection between orcs and minorities.  Even Adam Dray as quoted in the original post of this thread said that it didn't make you racist and most people simply didn't think about it.

That's right: according to Mr. Dray, either you know this is "really" about minorities, in which case you are a racist, or you just don't know or care about it, and that just makes you ignorant or "not thinking that much". Consolation prize!

Quote from: jhkim;478674On the other hand, it would be equally absurd to make the opposite extreme of claiming that no RPG gamer is ever racist.  For example, I know there have been a few threads on the white supremacy website Storm Front like:

Pundit no likey the linky to Stormfront!  :eek:

Have not fully caught up. A few responses anyway.

Quote from: MDBrantingham;478560Do Gnolls rear young?  Are they evil?

You're saying that an evil race is iimpossible because an evil race would never be able to rear young.  Stunning.

He's saying the only reason that something otherwise like people would be inherently evil is to justify the killing of innocents. He's still wrong, but you can at least get his position right.

My opinion is that inherent evil by itself slapped onto something otherwise like people is just boring, and not even the best solution for hack and slash.

Zombies, mind-flayers, and demons all have something interesting appended to inherent evil. Zombies have mindlessness and the mob. Mindflayers are inherently parasitic (if it is alive, it has done SO MUCH KILLING to live). Demons have possession, and the dilemma that tempts heroes to kill the innocent because it's necessary.

On the other end of the spectrum, if you want to justify the slaughter of humanoids, just start a damn war and make the other guys the aggressor. No need to carry non-combatants into battle.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid JohnsonThe second post I've quoted initially was a ?, but reading through more of the recent posts I can see more evidence that the affirmative team insist that everything has to be shades of grey, because they don't believe in black.
 
Why stop at nuanced orcs? Lets have some LG reformed mind flayers.

Huh? As myself and others have said, there are better iterations of inherent evil, and there are better justifications of hack and slash. So neither inherent evil nor hack and slash are the problem.

As for mind flayers, they can be fun to mess with. They're sociopaths, ruled by the iron fist of an elder brain and under the illusion that they'll get to be part of it later. What to you think is the first thing an outcast illithid will do, if not go on a murderous rampage against his kin?

Likewise, if they only kill for food and have no qualms, what happens when one gets detentacled? Killing won't stop him from starving, so he may set his remaining weeks to some hard-to-fathom purpose.

Describing morality in terms of motivations and what they find acceptable, instead of their objective moral stance (even if they have one) can be a useful idea generator.

Quote from: S'mon;478677Pundit no likey the linky to Stormfront!  :eek:

I PM'd John about this. You should edit the link out of your quote dude.