Quote from: Sigmund;481947The problem I see with this is that I have absolutely no reason to accept you as some kind of authority or expert on world-building or GMing. I see no reason to believe this assertion. I reject it, in fact, as I have personally encountered evidence to the contrary. Instead, I believe that your difficulty accepting the idea of irredeemably evil orcs (or anything the GM wants to so designate) is much more a possible sign of your lack of imagination, or perhaps your arrogance in assuming what you believe is universal.

Honestly, if any of ya'all are having such a hard time with D&D's morality, or this perceived "dark side" to the fucking hobby... there are many other hobbies in the world. Rather than join with Dray in arrogantly condemning vast swathes of people, most of whom you've never met and know nothing about, as racists, you can take up stamp collecting or knitting. There's very little moral controversy in those hobbies as far as I can tell.

First off I never said I was an expert of any description.
I have also stated that I have no issue with irredeemibly evil creatures so long as some thought has been put into it. My main concern was that using a default because who gives a shit it's just a game was a bit lazy and lacked imagination.
And I have absolutely no issue with there being lots of dark sides to the hobby. I have no issue with D&D's morality and I have never condemned anyone for playing D&D. I have no issue with D&D cahracters going round killing human children, or even little baby puppies. I think that if you do that and claim your PC is 'LAWFUL GOOD' then you need to consider that position. I think ingoring stuff in D&D cos you don't like it and so you pretend it doesn't exist is a bit daft.
I did state that my professor at Uni once said that every one holds some racist views and that I can see his perspective but I also understand that what you might call prejudice and he might call racist are just matters of semantics so i never pursued that discussion.

So what exactly are you saying ?

Actually, I do have a problem with evil gods, at least if they are presumed to be omnipotent (or nearly so), self-conscious of their "evil", and highly active in the world. Even Melkor-who-is-called-Morgoth is only one and a half of those three, and he's more than enough to build an entire set of campaigns around fighting.

Quote from: jibbajibba;481949First off I never said I was an expert of any description.
I have also stated that I have no issue with irredeemibly evil creatures so long as some thought has been put into it. My main concern was that using a default because who gives a shit it's just a game was a bit lazy and lacked imagination.

What you said specifically was, "If you had been reading my threads I have explicitly been saying that irredeemily evil creatures are often a feature of lazy world building and a lack of imagination." This indicates to me that you are asserting this as a universal truth, not an opinion. You say, "irredeemily evil creatures are often a feature". Not "may be" or "could be". I'm sure you'll say you didn't mean it that way... that of course it's just your opinion. I'm saying if that's the case then say it that way, otherwise I going to read what you are specifically writing, not what I can guess you might mean. If you think it's not just your opinion,  then the problem with that is, you have no way of knowing or measuring how often or even if ever the postulating of irredeemably evil orcs is the feature of lazy world building and/or lack of imagination you say it is.

QuoteAnd I have absolutely no issue with there being lots of dark sides to the hobby. I have no issue with D&D's morality and I have never condemned anyone for playing D&D. I have no issue with D&D cahracters going round killing human children, or even little baby puppies. I think that if you do that and claim your PC is 'LAWFUL GOOD' then you need to consider that position. I think ingoring stuff in D&D cos you don't like it and so you pretend it doesn't exist is a bit daft.
I did state that my professor at Uni once said that every one holds some racist views and that I can see his perspective but I also understand that what you might call prejudice and he might call racist are just matters of semantics so i never pursued that discussion.

So what exactly are you saying ?

I can describe my character as doing whatever I want and then describe him claiming whatever I want. Whether that's accepted by my group or not is for us to decide, not you.

You say here that "ignoring stuff in D&D cos you don't like it and so you pretend it doesn't exist is a bit daft" as if I'm ignoring stuff in D&D. What is it you think I'm ignoring? Are you sure it's a case of someone ignoring something rather than just not accepting your value judgments about it?

Sorry, I don't agree with your professor. I would agree that everyone has some prejudices, but quite often those prejudices have nothing to do with race. For example, I dislike when guys where their baseball caps sideways, pants practically falling down, tags from the store hanging off them, gold teeth, "bling", etc. This, however, has nothing to do with skin color, as I dislike anyone participating in this subculture no matter what their skin color. It's a cultural predudice. I find that  folks who enjoy that culture are often selfish and dishonest. It doesn't matter what their race is. So it's actually not just semantics. Saying everyone is at least a little racist is unprovable and IMO flat out wrong.

I'm saying that you're not showing any signs of being open to persuasion in this thread. You respond as if you'r opinions are incontrovertible, when that's actually quite far from the truth. Ya'all are arguing in support of this "dark" side to the rpg hobby that I see absolutely no evidence of existing. The "evidence" being presented is that you can run a "dark" character and so this shows the "dark" side of the hobby. Actually, it shows the "dark" side of you. Even then it's not all that "dark". No darker than a large number of movies, video games, or novels out there. It's simply one of many examples of this edginess that's been popular for a few years now. Even the AP of Poison'd that caused such a ruckus is no more than a caricature of "darkness", and in no way presented even a vague shadow of what being a real pirate in the age of sail was like as far as I can tell. I can often tell who the folks are who have never actually been exposed to the real "darkness" that this world can offer, as they often present these caricatures and cartoons of "darkness" as if it were somehow truly dark. I like seeing it, to be honest, because I wouldn't wish true suffering or despair on anyone, but I would like folks to be honest about how serious and "dark" these caricatures and cartoons really are.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;481950Actually, I do have a problem with evil gods, at least if they are presumed to be omnipotent (or nearly so), self-conscious of their "evil", and highly active in the world. Even Melkor-who-is-called-Morgoth is only one and a half of those three, and he's more than enough to build an entire set of campaigns around fighting.

Then don't play D&D would be my suggestion. Also, just be aware, this is your problem, not the problem of the source material. Plenty of us don't feel the need to take this fantasy so seriously all the time. Plus, while Tolkien's world is pretty awesome, it's not the end all, be all of what fantasy is allowed to be. Oh, and Melkor-who-is-called-Morgoth isn't actually anything at all beyond an imaginary construct described in a series of fantasy books. Finally, neither I nor Deities and Demigods (at least in the descriptions of the deities I'm alluding to) mention anything about omniscience, so the presumption of it is all you.

Come now Sigmund, you know perfectly well the "dark side" of gaming is thoroughly documented:)

QuoteFROM MAZES AND MONSTERS: And so... we played the game again... for one last time. It didn't matter that there were no maps... or dice... or monsters. Pardue saw the monsters. We did not. We saw nothing but the death of hope. And the loss of our friend. And so we played the game until the sun began to set... and all the monsters were dead.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;481957Come now Sigmund, you know perfectly well the "dark side" of gaming is thoroughly documented:)

Most of these geeks have no idea what "darkness" is really like, and they should be thankful for that. It's hard for me to take any of this "darkness in RPGing" seriously when I lived through years of drug addiction and crime. I've served a little bit of time in jail, and I should have served much more than I did to be honest. My former roomate spent 25 of his 52 years on this Earth in a federal penitentiary. I hung out with a guy in my time at a halfway house that had been repeatedly sexually assaulted by his father, a police officer. I hung out with another guy who was so addicted to heroin he used to get his drugs and money by robbing drug dealers. He'd been shot twice and stabbed twelve times. Another feller was a 22 year old kid who was shot in the spine in a street gang conflict and will spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair with a colostomy bag. I've been beaten to the point where the emergency room doc was surprised I wasn't blind. I've had my cheek broken in two places and shoved towards the back of my face with a pool cue. I've been homeless. I had one of my best friends stabbed to death by his girlfriend's teen-aged son. In my time as a drug a counselor in a rehab where i worked in the Young Adult unit, I've seen teen after teen.. and we're talking 14, 15 year olds, come into our program strung out on various pills and alcohol. We lost several to drug overdoses after they had completed the program. This stuff is real darkness.

Quote from: Sigmund;481956Then don't play D&D would be my suggestion.

I don't see why not. D&D works perfectly well without effectively-omnipotent, active, self-consciously evil gods. In fact, in all the years I've ever played D&D, I can't think of having ever used them, nor missed them.

QuoteAlso, just be aware, this is your problem, not the problem of the source material.

It's a matter of what you think is "the source material". I think settings like Forgotten Realms do present their gods this way, and while I haven't played in them personally, I've read and heard many accounts where this concept was used in games.

QuotePlenty of us don't feel the need to take this fantasy so seriously all the time. Plus, while Tolkien's world is pretty awesome, it's not the end all, be all of what fantasy is allowed to be.

No one has said it was (and me least of all, as any look at my complaints about Tolkienesque fantasy in RPGs will show). However, Melkor-who-is-called-Morgoth is the ur-example in modern fantasy of inhumanly powerful dark lords who represent the force of metaphysical evil (as opposed to a raper wizard or something). He himself is a knock-off of Satan. When people put effectively-omnipotent, active, self-consciously evil gods into their game, I would not be surprised to find that they are influenced by his example (and Sauron's).

QuoteOh, and Melkor-who-is-called-Morgoth isn't actually anything at all beyond an imaginary construct described in a series of fantasy books.

:rolleyes: That's irrelevant. What matters is whether that imaginary construct is well-built or not.

QuoteFinally, neither I nor Deities and Demigods (at least in the descriptions of the deities I'm alluding to) mention anything about omniscience, so the presumption of it is all you.

I didn't say anything about "omniscience".

Sigmund, I think some gamers are especially empathic, and while they might not have experienced real darkness, the capacity to respond emotionally to something you imagine can be pretty strong. I think people pick archetypical pictures of darkness because that's the default way they imagine what they are bothered by.

People especially bothered by darkness in RPGs are the kind of people that can experience emotions in response to something they imagine. There is a limit to the point of describing something in an RPG, especially if it isn't something you are personally familiar with. I wouldn't be any better at giving a first hand account of being in prison than I am at giving a first hand account of being on the moon, and too much description turns into reading national geographic to the players.

If I say, "You are in prison," that could create a really bothersome feeling to someone that is sympathetic enough, just like, "You are on the moon," is an awesome image to someone with a good enough imagination." It is up to the player, how bothered they will be about being in prison, and to their experience, that can be darkness. I'm not going to sit them in a corner and read to them all the details of some real account of prison just so they can be educated on darkness during my game.

This is a part of why I borderline get the idea of misery tourism, because I can imagine people being empathic enough to feel like they are connecting with what's going on. Sure, this can piss off people who have been through it, because they think no one should play around with the idea of being in their club, and it can piss off regular gamers who think they are doing it wrong, because they don't want normal people to mix up their game with dungeons and dragons, or because they don't like the kind of people that play those games (weak, nasty, or stupid) but not everyone is the same and some people have a great capacity for emotional response to words, and some of that group really wants to think about evil, because evil is interesting.

Quote from: Sigmund;481960Most of these geeks have no idea what "darkness" is really like, and they should be thankful for that. It's hard for me to take any of this "darkness in RPGing" seriously when I lived through years of drug addiction and crime. I've served a little bit of time in jail, and I should have served much more than I did to be honest. My former roomate spent 25 of his 52 years on this Earth in a federal penitentiary. I hung out with a guy in my time at a halfway house that had been repeatedly sexually assaulted by his father, a police officer. I hung out with another guy who was so addicted to heroin he used to get his drugs and money by robbing drug dealers. He'd been shot twice and stabbed twelve times. Another feller was a 22 year old kid who was shot in the spine in a street gang conflict and will spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair with a colostomy bag. I've been beaten to the point where the emergency room doc was surprised I wasn't blind. I've had my cheek broken in two places and shoved towards the back of my face with a pool cue. I've been homeless. I had one of my best friends stabbed to death by his girlfriend's teen-aged son. In my time as a drug a counselor in a rehab where i worked in the Young Adult unit, I've seen teen after teen.. and we're talking 14, 15 year olds, come into our program strung out on various pills and alcohol. We lost several to drug overdoses after they had completed the program. This stuff is real darkness.

I am glad you made it through all that alive. Thanks for sharing. I didn't realize you had been through so much.

You do make a good point on the difference between theoretical darkness and real genuine dark experiences. Sometimes I think we get way too into the theoretical stuff in these conversations.

QuoteGamers are especially empathic

There is insufficient literary means to express how hilarious this premise is.

And I'm being charitable and assuming you meant "empathetic," if you really meant "empathic," I'm gonna be here on te floor for a while.

Quote from: J Arcane;481976There is insufficient literary means to express how hilarious this premise is.

And I'm being charitable and assuming you meant "empathetic," if you really meant "empathic," I'm gonna be here on te floor for a while.

J Arcane, thanks for the English lesson. Also, I said some gamers. I could have as easily said some people - some people who like to game are empathetic.

I hope that clears it up for you. I'm not in the mood to talk to you if you are going to be a cunt, so don't expect a reply unless you fix your fucking attitude.

Quote from: Cranewings;481977J Arcane, thanks for the English lesson. Also, I said some gamers. I could have as easily said some people - some people who like to game are empathetic.

Which is about as useful a statement as "Some gamers have brown hair" or "Some dead people are Alma Cogan."

Quote from: J Arcane;481978Which is about as useful a statement as "Some gamers have brown hair" or "Some dead people are Alma Cogan."

I'm explaining why I think a image of darkness is all that is needed. An empathetic person that plays games will describe darkness in just enough detail to elicit the emotional response he is looking for. If Sigmond, for example, wanted an emotional reaction from someone describing something dark during a RPG, it would be of a very different character than one of the girls I game with that's 24, goes to state college, and never had anything happen to her. She doesn't need nor want to hear about real darkness in an RPG because she can feel everything she wants to feel by hearing about comic book darkness. Real darkness either wouldn't connect or be too much for her.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;481965I don't see why not. D&D works perfectly well without effectively-omnipotent, active, self-consciously evil gods.

True. It also works perfectly well with them, whether a Melkor-derivative or some other type.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;481965I don't see why not. D&D works perfectly well without effectively-omnipotent, active, self-consciously evil gods. In fact, in all the years I've ever played D&D, I can't think of having ever used them, nor missed them.

True enough. I'm really thinking not of D&D, but of the "default" setting for D&D, so I satnd corrected.

QuoteIt's a matter of what you think is "the source material". I think settings like Forgotten Realms do present their gods this way, and while I haven't played in them personally, I've read and heard many accounts where this concept was used in games.

I mentioned the source material, Deities and Demigods. Gods like Yeenoghu and Gruumsh and such.

QuoteNo one has said it was (and me least of all, as any look at my complaints about Tolkienesque fantasy in RPGs will show). However, Melkor-who-is-called-Morgoth is the ur-example in modern fantasy of inhumanly powerful dark lords who represent the force of metaphysical evil (as opposed to a raper wizard or something). He himself is a knock-off of Satan. When people put effectively-omnipotent, active, self-consciously evil gods into their game, I would not be surprised to find that they are influenced by his example (and Sauron's).

 I don't think Tolkien's divine entities and hierarchies map very well to most D&D settings or the D&D ideas of divinity, planar architecture, or supernatural agents. Using Melkor as an example, therefore, is not very useful IMO.

Quote:rolleyes: That's irrelevant. What matters is whether that imaginary construct is well-built or not.

Whether it is well-built or not is a matter of opinion. despite his fantastic imagination, I see nothing to indicate Tolkien was some sort of expert or authority on religion (other than being a fantasy writer anyway).

QuoteI didn't say anything about "omniscience".

Brother, you mentioned omniscience in the second sentence of this post I've quoted... again. I, on the other hand, had not mentioned anything about omniscience until you brought it up, and even then it was only to point out that I had not mentioned omniscience in my post about orcs being created by an evil god in many folk's games (specifically, Gruumsh).

This elitism over playing pretend with dice is really kinda silly, don't ya think?