Quote from: John Morrow;481565Basically, the solution being presented here is to eliminate all mechanical racial differences in the game so that the choice of race doesn't matter mechanically.

GURPS 4e actually does this.  They're just a package of Advantages, Disadvantages, and Stats that can all be bought independantly for the same cost.

This is much better than the 1-3e bit where you could get stats at the cost break point with a significant savings.

Quote from: TristramEvans;481555I was the one who reported Ace in that thread, actually.

So were you the slimy little communist shit, twinkle-toed cocksucker who was hitting the report button here on therpgsite? Did we hurt your fucking feelings?

Quote from: John Morrow;481560I took it as an honest statement of your play preference.  

Thanks. I appreciate that.  

QuoteThe objective was to permit Good characters to slay at least some classes of Evil opponents without pause so that Paladins would spend more time delivering righteous smack-downs than being a social worker trying to redeem the souls of the fallen.  I think that's easier with irredeemable Evil, because once evil characters can achieve redemption, I think Good characters have an obligation to provide the opportunity for it.  It can make it very difficult to maintain a tone of butt-kicking combat when the characters are obliged to humanely care for every bad guy who falls but does not die in combat or who surrenders and for the offspring and/or widow of every bad guy killed by the PCs.  

I can understand this.

Another reason I eliminated evil races from my setting was to demonstrate to Good Characters and Paladins  that their social worker motivations had as much influence in the setting as their butt kicking heroics. I base evil in my campaigns on real world events/acts personified in game by groups or individuals. Evil characters may love their children and willingly sacrifice themselves for their offsprings (much like in real life) which should not detract from the evil they have committed. Evil and how it could manifest is complex, something which I feel I lose if I were to use irredeamably evil races. But this is just how I roll.

I am reminded of a scene in Criminal Minds where Hotch is interrogating the serial killer, Vincent Perotta.  

Aaron "Hotch" Hotchner: You were just responding to what you learned Vincent. When you grow up in an environment like that, an extremely abusive and violent household...it's not surprising that some people grow up to become killers.
Vincent Perotta: Some people?
Aaron "Hotch" Hotchner: What's that?
Vincent Perotta: You said some people grow up to become killers.
Aaron "Hotch" Hotchner: ...And some people grow up to catch them.

By doing this I think I add depth to the setting and allow for a wider scope of PC influence. Combat is normaly to the death although this too is determined by context. Sometimes opponents are allowed to live esp if they are just hired swords, for example.

QuoteBy the way, an example I thought of that I think captures what I was looking for was Ripley, at the end of Aliens, threatening and ultimately killing baby Aliens in their nest and pretty much doing her best to annihilate the species.  Do you think that was not good and/or not heroic?

(ADDED: I noticed, after posting this, that TristramEvans brought up Ripley and the Aliens earlier in this thread.)

Well I think when she went back for Newt she was being heroic, much like how the grunts walked in to the hive and then being relieved of their pulse rifles. I think her attempt to annihilate the xenomorphs was pragmatic. Not that I think they were evil or anything.  We can dream up of races and motivations beyond our ken who would be very hostile to humanity or any other race, without ever having to confine ourselves to good/evil.

I know I have created such races, which my players (perhaps wrongly) refer to as “anathema races”. And I think Alien(s) is a pretty good example of this.

The first three Alien movies to me has always been a reflection of humanity with good and evil being played out in the human race and not in the Alien race . Ripley makes an astute observation when she say’s “You know, Burke, I don't know which species is worse. You don't see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage”  which goes nicely with Ash’s cold comfort description in Alien “I admire its purity. A survivor... unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality” all the while knowing that the Company sent them in to bring back a specimen.

Games can be about different things. You can have a game about heroism where character actions are easily identified as such or you could move into murkier waters. Hopefully I have given you an idea of where I’m coming from.

Regards,
David R

The "beauty" of irredeemable evil is that you can have both black/white and shades of grey, it's not a binary decision.  If you deny irredeemable evil, however, you eliminate any situations that could arise from it, and are left with only shades of grey.

Having one irredeemably evil sentient species doesn't mean you can't have another 4 dozen threatening species that aren't irredeemably evil.  The inference that the representation of one monster in a setting is somehow indicative of campaign playstyle is, well, not looking at the whole picture.

Quote from: CRKrueger;481577The inference that the representation of one monster in a setting is somehow indicative of campaign playstyle is, well, not looking at the whole picture.

I don't believe I made such an inference. If you could point me to something specific I said.....(running a bit late, will respond later)

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;481578I don't believe I made such an inference.

It's just that...

Quote from: David R;481578The depiction of evil does seem to me over the top and grand guignol-ish. It's not something which I or the people I game would find interesting but I understand better where you are coming from.

...sounds like what you're saying that this example of orcs is representative of the depiction of evil in Morrow's campaign, when in actuality, it could be the case only with goblins, and in other cases, a different depiction of evil, one which you would find interesting, is used.  You already said that didn't come out quite the way you intended, so maybe that's not what you in particular were saying, but there are other posts that are in a similar vein.

I'm just saying the existence of "EVIL" doesn't preclude the existence of "evil", if you get my meaning.

Quote from: John Morrow;481565Basically, the solution being presented here is to eliminate all mechanical racial differences in the game so that the choice of race doesn't matter mechanically.

The blogger is calling for a solution for player behavior, ie. not the game's job.

Quote from: CRKrueger;481580It's just that...



...sounds like what you're saying that this example of orcs is representative of the depiction of evil in Morrow's campaign, when in actuality, it could be the case only with goblins, and in other cases, a different depiction of evil, one which you would find interesting, is used.  You already said that didn't come out quite the way you intended, so maybe that's not what you in particular were saying, but there are other posts that are in a similar vein.

I'm just saying the existence of "EVIL" doesn't preclude the existence of "evil", if you get my meaning.

Sure I get what you're saying. In fact if I'm not mistaken, John subsequently says that some evil races in his campaign were irredeemable while others were not. So there is a variety of depictions "evil" in his games.

But even then I was in error as one of my old crew member who lurks around here reminded me, grand guignol and over the top in action and emotion was exactly what an old Hunter campaign was. It had moments of subtlety but on the whole.....

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;481574So were you the slimy little communist shit, twinkle-toed cocksucker who was hitting the report button here on therpgsite? Did we hurt your fucking feelings?

No. Your reading comprehension seems to have failed you dumbass.

I reported someone spouting obviously racist white power propaganda on rpg.net's forums. Because, despite arguing very much against the people looking so hard for racism in rpgs, that doesn't mean actual racism isn't a repugnant thing.

Quote from: TristramEvans;481555I was the one who reported Ace in that thread, actually.

Wow, you suck.  Everything he said was true and he got permabanned because facts and reality are inconvenient truths for egalitarians.  All praise be to the liberal hivemind.

QuoteBTB, who are the "middle class white folks"? The only one who identified themselves as white and middle class in that  thread was SomethingElse, Rpg.net's hardcore self-hating version of jhkim.

I guarantee that the majority of posters on Tangency are middle class white suburbanites because those are the only people afflicted with such a degree of white guilt.

QuoteI reported someone spouting obviously racist white power propaganda on rpg.net's forums. Because, despite arguing very much against the people looking so hard for racism in rpgs, that doesn't mean actual racism isn't a repugnant thing.

Non-whites taking pride in their ethnic heritage = a positive, uplifting experience that should be encouraged by society and the government.  Whites discussing their ethnic heritage in a way that isn't self-flagellating Marxist hogwash = OBVIOUS RACISM BAN HIM NOW.

I don't know who this B.T. is and before I start something, can someone tell me if this is some kind of new act around here ?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: B.T.;481655Wow, you suck.  Everything he said was true and he got permabanned because facts and reality are inconvenient truths for egalitarians.  All praise be to the liberal hivemind.

Everything eh said was true huh? So, you believe on black people live in africa and they have much better lives becauyse there's no mixing of races there?

You're a fucking moron.

QuoteI guarantee that the majority of posters on Tangency are middle class white suburbanites because those are the only people afflicted with such a degree of white guilt.

I wouldn't know. I don't go to Tangency. That thread was moved there from Open. And you're argument makes absolutely no sense. It's pretty obvious now you didn't actually read the thread, you're just spouting off nonsense.

QuoteNon-whites taking pride in their ethnic heritage = a positive, uplifting experience that should be encouraged by society and the government.  Whites discussing their ethnic heritage in a way that isn't self-flagellating Marxist hogwash = OBVIOUS RACISM BAN HIM NOW.

Quote from: David R;481656I don't know who this B.T. is and before I start something, can someone tell me if this is some kind of new act around here ?

I can't say much. He seems to have decided Pundit-style bullshit needed to be kicked up a notch.

Quote from: David R;481656I don't know who this B.T. is and before I start something, can someone tell me if this is some kind of new act around here ?

Regards,
David R

The place has been overrun with people spouting right-wing echo chamber bullshit lately.

I find myself agreeing with much of David R's games examples and the like.

Somethign that occurs to me about evil is that is you remove the choice then is it realy evil?

Is a being that is irredeemibly evil ie is incapable of not doign evil really evil. The examples of the Aliens is a great one. The Aliens are not evil but like a virus they kill what they meet as part of their basic instint and life-cycle.
They are not evil because they are not making a conscious choice to do 'evil' they simply follow their instinct. If you stick a polar bear in a room full of kids it will probably kill all the little kids, does that make it evil? If you stick a man with a big knife in the room and he kills all the little kids is he morally equivalent to the bear ? (clue no of course not )

So if you make a whole culture irremedibly evil are they actually evil at all?
For me creatures that choose to be evil are far more interesting and to be honest, if they can't choose I find it hard to class them as evil.