Quote from: John Morrow;481053So one cannot be truly good and eat meat or wear leather because other options exist, or is it OK to enjoy the fruits of the unnecessary killing of animals so long as you outsource the actual killing to someone out of sight?  A good person can't work as a mouse exterminator or at an animal shelter putting excess cats and dogs to sleep?

Uh, no. You'll have to not put words in my mouth if we are going to get anywhere (even if that leads to a useful disagreement). Did I say that eating meat, etc. were unnecessary? Think about why it might be unnecessary to kill every mouse you see.

The interesting cases are the ones I left out in the evil/not-evil/necessary/unnecessary matrix.

Quote from: skofflox;480995yup on both counts...

Well, that I see, but then it's ok for orcs to be racist as they're evil, as long as the players arent'.

Quote from: jibbajibba;481036Something that interests me though is that justifible genocide is no where in the source material. Gandalf doesn't set out to eradicate all goblins and orcs, galahad doesn't kill folks hither and yon. In the source material the good folks always offer mercy above violence always allow room for redemption . So what is really inspiring this mode of play? It seems to be a totally gamist thing. We kill them to get gold and experience then we look to justify it when someone claims its racist.....
Take a specific. A party find a guy they detect evil he is evil. But he explains that he is trying to change do they kill him? Answer no not until he commits an evil act. Why can't he just be put down like an orc? That to me carries the taint of racism you see.
Now io would avoid it quite the opposite I'll hi-light it in game. I will have npcs saying just burn them out they are only orcs if we don't do it now they will just breed. And the same guy will claim the human deserves a change it's not like he is orcish scum. I will see how far the PCs will follow that logical course.

This I think I can answer. The way I see it, absolute good and evil would be more of a mythic thing... I didn't see anywhere that referred to Perseus contemplating whether Medusa was redeemable. She was just evil, so he killed her for her head Dualistic alignments, IMO, create more of a mythic feel to a game. The alignments as a spectrum are what allow for more latitude in redeemability and shades of gray. It all depends on the feel a DM wants in the game. There's as much a place for mythic-style good vs. evil struggles as there is for ambiguous, gritty, shades of gray style games IMO. For me, postulating absolutely evil monsters (including orcs) is fine in a game striving for more of a mythic feel. There is no One True Way.

Quote from: Age of Fable;481043Conclusion: If you fudge rolls, you're basically a racist.

But...but...some of my best friends roll in the open!

Quote from: Sigmund;481071This I think I can answer. The way I see it, absolute good and evil would be more of a mythic thing... I didn't see anywhere that referred to Perseus contemplating whether Medusa was redeemable. She was just evil, so he killed her for her head Dualistic alignments, IMO, create more of a mythic feel to a game. The alignments as a spectrum are what allow for more latitude in redeemability and shades of gray. It all depends on the feel a DM wants in the game. There's as much a place for mythic-style good vs. evil struggles as there is for ambiguous, gritty, shades of gray style games IMO. For me, postulating absolutely evil monsters (including orcs) is fine in a game striving for more of a mythic feel. There is no One True Way.

But take your examle if perseus arrives at the medusa's cave and she comes out being al reasonable then I don't think he kills her he stays with her til she comitts an evil act
Also the medusa is a single evil creature who has done evil not a race of creatures.
As for doctor who plenty of angst there and a massive desire not to kill if possible

Quote from: jibbajibba;481087But take your examle if perseus arrives at the medusa's cave and she comes out being al reasonable then I don't think he kills her he stays with her til she comitts an evil act
Also the medusa is a single evil creature who has done evil not a race of creatures.
As for doctor who plenty of angst there and a massive desire not to kill if possible

I don't have any desire to examine "what if's" in relation to Perseus and Medusa at this time, thanks. I'm simply sharing with you that, from the way I see it, using absolute good and evil in a game stems from, and contributes to the feel of, myths and legends and was not meant to comment on anything relating to pretend "genocide" or pretend "racism". Also, you asked a question, and I answered it according to how I see it. Take it or leave it, I'm no longer invested in which.

Don't watch Dr. Who, never have, so I have no opinion or response to that either way.

Y'know we are blind to the pink elephant in the room. Midnight where I don't know which is worse, that I'm cheering for the impending Elvish genocide or where I'm planning an Orchish one.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;481096Y'know we are blind to the pink elephant in the room. Midnight where I don't know which is worse, that I'm cheering for the impending Elvish genocide or where I'm planning an Orchish one.

Regards,
David R

Midnight offends your sensibilities?

I think it's pretty lame myself, but I'm not especially bothered by its existence.

Quote from: David R;481096Y'know we are blind to the pink elephant in the room. Midnight where I don't know which is worse, that I'm cheering for the impending Elvish genocide or where I'm planning an Orchish one.

Regards,
David R

While I know what Midnight is, I have never read or played in it, so I am not so much blind to it as I am really not giving a shit about it.

Quote from: Benoist;481097Midnight offends your sensibilities?

I think it's pretty lame myself, but I'm not especially bothered by its existence.

Offends ? I kinda of like it. But that could be just because the elves get it pretty rough there.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;481099Offends ? I kinda of like it. But that could be just because the elves get it pretty rough there.

Regards,
David R

So your post was sarcastic in fact? Sorry I thought you were being serious.

Quote from: John Morrow;481055And I don't think that's the argument, either.  I think the problem is with the idea that they are essentially engaging in racism if they go along with slaughtering sentient monsters (and perhaps their offspring) without sufficient angst and acknowledgement that doing so is racist.  I can see where people find the parallels impossible to ignore but I can also see why others see no parallels at all, and a lot of it boils down to whether they think of the monsters as people or not.  As Kyle pointed out in another thread, PETA refers to the slaughter of chickens as "The Chicken Holocaust".

One of the disconnects here is that you often inject other ideas onto what I say about racism.  Earlier was the implication that anything with racism should be hidden or banned.  In this case, you imply that I advocate "sufficient angst".  I don't think any angst is necessary.  

Again, here's the short form:  Most stuff created prior to 1950, and quite a bit after it, has some racism in it.  Racism has been the mainstream view throughout history, with scattered exceptions.  I have no intention of filling myself with angst for all the old stuff I love. I also acknowledge that most of it is, among other things, racist - but that doesn't stop me from enjoying it.  

What I'm saying is that the parallels are truly there.  It is possible to ignore them for the sake of the game and just enjoy some good Conan-esque action, or other fantasy genre action.  It doesn't make you an evil person to do so - I've run my own games of the Conan RPG.  But that doesn't mean that outside the game I'm going to go around making excuses and claiming that Robert E. Howard was not a racist, because he was.  

(I'm citing Howard here because I think there is general agreement that he was racist, and I'm trying to explain my general approach to racism without the specific disagreements we have about Tolkien.)  

Quote from: Sigmund;481071The way I see it, absolute good and evil would be more of a mythic thing... I didn't see anywhere that referred to Perseus contemplating whether Medusa was redeemable. She was just evil, so he killed her for her head Dualistic alignments, IMO, create more of a mythic feel to a game. The alignments as a spectrum are what allow for more latitude in redeemability and shades of gray. It all depends on the feel a DM wants in the game. There's as much a place for mythic-style good vs. evil struggles as there is for ambiguous, gritty, shades of gray style games IMO. For me, postulating absolutely evil monsters (including orcs) is fine in a game striving for more of a mythic feel. There is no One True Way.

I agree there is no One True Way, and it's fine to use myths.  But I think there should be acknowledgment of what myths are.  Historical myths are based on historical views of the world, and tend to have themes that are based on those views.  While medusa is a near-unique creature, a mythic race like the centaurs represents an ancient Greek view of other races.  I'm sure now people will jump down my throat for my hideous slander against ancient Greeks for claiming them to be racist, and I'm wild crazy politically correct for inventing such a crazy notion that ancient Greeks were racist, but oh well...

Quote from: jhkim;481103a mythic race like the centaurs represents an ancient Greek view of other races.

Sure, yeah. Racism in ancient Greece meant thinking other races were half horse. That certainly makes a lot of sense.

So, basically every fantasy race ever created MUST to be an analogy for a real-world race.

Quoteand I'm trying to explain my general approach to racism  

Here's my general approach to racism; I'm not racist to anybody.

I'm suspicious of approaches more complicated than that.

Quote from: jhkim;481103I agree there is no One True Way, and it's fine to use myths.  But I think there should be acknowledgment of what myths are.  Historical myths are based on historical views of the world, and tend to have themes that are based on those views.  While medusa is a near-unique creature, a mythic race like the centaurs represents an ancient Greek view of other races.  I'm sure now people will jump down my throat for my hideous slander against ancient Greeks for claiming them to be racist, and I'm wild crazy politically correct for inventing such a crazy notion that ancient Greeks were racist, but oh well...

Honestly, I don't much care anymore as it's obvious to me that you and I will never agree on this issue. However, I am becoming curious... in your view is there anyone anywhere in any time period that isn't racist? Do you distinguish between racism and culturalism/nationalism? No matter what individual or culture anyone has mentioned in this thread, you have taken the time to point out how racist they all were/are. Also, as I pointed out to JJ, the Perseus vs. Medusa comment was more directed at redeemablity vs. irredeemability, not genocide or racism. Medusa had once been human after all.

Edit: Response to jhkim's characterization of Greeks as racist...

http://www.anistor.gr/english/enback/AGRacism.pdf

Short form:
Speaking of "racism" as meaning our modern concept of it in relation to ancient Greece is inaccurate.

Quote from: Sigmund;481106Honestly, I don't much care anymore as it's obvious to me that you and I will never agree on this issue. However, I am becoming curious... in your view is there anyone anywhere in any time period that isn't racist? Do you distinguish between racism and culturalism/nationalism? No matter what individual or culture anyone has mentioned in this thread, you have taken the time to point out how racist they all were/are. Also, as I pointed out to JJ, the Perseus vs. Medusa comment was more directed at redeemablity vs. irredeemability, not genocide or racism. Medusa had once been human after all.

Yes, I think that racism was the norm for almost all historical cultures and time periods.  The opposite - the idea of the equality of races - is largely a modern idea along with universal suffrage democracy, abolition of slavery, and equal rights for men and women.  There are exceptions, but they are uncommon.  

Yes, I personally distinguish between racism and culturalism/nationalism.  However, historical cultures generally conflated the two, since they had no concept of genetics.