Quote from: David R;480801I think this is where we may differ. I and the crews I have gamed with are pretty conscious of where the violence is directed and why.

Regards,
David R

That may be where indeed. Do you hav examples you can share of other motivations you and your crews have witnessed?

As far as I see it, with the wide array of players I gamed with, and the wide array of games we played over the years, with different genders, ages, cultural/ethnic backgrounds, what-have-you, I've witnessed in overwhelming quantities people who (1) had fun for its pure situational value, that is, enjoying the moment itself with your friends, (2) had fun with the Cathartic aspect of the game, where you basically realize fantasies in a safe imaginary environment, with the fantasies themselves overwhelmingly not in direct correlation with their real-world equivalent (i.e. killing a bad guy in a game doesn't mean you want to kill people pissing you off in real life, though it may be indicative of control issues you want to vent through the game), and (3) had fun working out problems in the game like you can playing a wargame, solving Sudoku puzzles, crosswords, theoretical diplomatic scenarios, mathematical problems such as optimizing a character, and so on, and finally (4) had fun experimenting being someone else, not for escapism or cathartic effect, but to actually imagine "what if I was ..." types of scenarios. Curiosity.

Quote from: Benoist;480804That may be where indeed. Do you hav examples you can share of other motivations you and your crews have witnessed?

I don't think you get it Benoist. Have I met misogynistic, racist or homophobic gamers ? Yes, I have. Are their attitudes reflected in their games. Yes, it is. But the majority of gamers I have met in real life or online, have been cool.

The difference I was talking about is the attitude towards the use of violence in games. How probably Bren and I define "heroic" in different ways. Our differing attitude (maybe) on the question of evil in games and how violence is used to deal with it. Perhaps how the cultures we come from inform the choices we make in our games.

Edit: And these differences make interesting discussions, IMO.

Regards,
David R

You're right David. I don't think I get it.

How do you and your buddies use violence in a game in a way that is different from what Bren describes? Examples would go a long way to make me understand what is it you are talking about. Please.

I have given you an example in this very thread. I don't use evil races in my games. I don't think it's heroic to kill baby or female orcs in their lairs even if they are irredeemabley evil. Mind you, I don't know if Bren uses evil races in his game or considers it heroic to kill unarmed evil noncombatants (is this the term we are using), but it's there in my first post in.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;480801I think this is where we may differ. I and the crews I have gamed with are pretty conscious of where the violence is directed and why.

Regards,
David R

It is all a matter of taste I suppose. For us it depends on what we are doing. If we are playing a game the campagn flavor is resevoir dogs or the sopranos, it is totally in character to direct the violence to be directed at any number of potential targets. It isn't usually completely mindless killing. But killing enters into it and people don't usually flinch much because this is a genre everyone is comfortable with.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480812It is all a matter of taste I suppose. For us it depends on what we are doing. If we are playing a game the campagn flavor is resevoir dogs or the sopranos, it is totally in character to direct the violence to be directed at any number of potential targets. It isn't usually completely mindless killing. But killing enters into it and people don't usually flinch much because this is a genre everyone is comfortable with.

Of course.  In my spy and crime games, though, "civilians" - those not in the "game" or "life" are never targetted.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;480813Of course.  In my spy and crime games, though, "civilians" - those not in the "game" or "life" are never targetted.

Regards,
David R

But what about when you play bad guys?

I have had serial Killer PCs, terrorist PCs, irredeemibly evil orc PCs.

Quote from: jibbajibba;480816But what about when you play bad guys?

I have had serial Killer PCs, terrorist PCs, irredeemibly evil orc PCs.

We don't play irredeemabely bad guys. For us there would be no point playing them. For us.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;480811I have given you an example in this very thread. I don't use evil races in my games. I don't think it's heroic to kill baby or female orcs in their lairs even if they are irredeemabley evil. Mind you, I don't know if Bren uses evil races in his game or considers it heroic to kill unarmed evil noncombatants (is this the term we are using), but it's there in my first post in.

Regards,
David R

I have probably not been clear on my own gaming style because I have been arguing a lot of theoretical situations here. Just as a starting point, I don't run many fantasy games anymore (though every once in a while I still do). When I do run fantasy I am not that interested in killing orcs, dungeons crawls, or hack campaigns. I am much more interested in investigation, intrigue, maybe some action on the front lines of a war, etc. When I play historical games (which I like) I tend to focus on the same things.

But I do run a lot of modern games. Usually these are counter-terrorism, mafia or horror. These tend to be investigation based as well but considerably more violence and character-driven. So my mafia sessions start out with a general backdrop scenario (the PCs are part of the Bartoli family and a war is breaking out with rival street gangs over the cocaine trade), but from there it is up to the players to get rich and rise to the top. It varies from game to game, but many of our sessions culminate in the PCs in violence against any number of possible targets (rivals, allies, other PCs, random people who get in the way, law enforcement, etc). But I am not structuring these campaigns to make us better people or instill lessons (everyone in the group has their own personal ideas about these things and that isn't my job), we do it to capture the feel of a great crime film or what have you.

As a specific example, to illustrate what kind of violence I deem acceptable. The PCs were fending off incursions into Boston from a resurgent Irish mob. The leader was tough to track and once they found him, he had a habit of taking his daughter with him wherever he went (to make it harder for people to target him for hits). When the PCs showed up at his house to kill him, waiting for him to get in his car to leave for a meeting or something, I told them he left the house hand-in-hand with his daughter (figuring this would probably throw a wrench in their plan). They went ahead as scheduled. Not only did they gun him down right in front of his daughter. But they killed him by blasting his groin and letting him bleed to death (as a message to anyone that would follow his lead).

Now I didn't expect the groin shot or them to go ahead with the hit with the daughter there. But they were playing cold-blooded hitmen.

I guess in my opinion, my players are removed enough from their characters that I don't worry about them when they decide to do these kinds of things. They are all very decent guys and view this as taking on a role (just like Anthony Hopkins isn't morally responsible for what his character did in Silence of the Lambs).

I've done the all-evil monster party in a sandbox, where basically the PCs formed a clan of non-humans bent on building a settlement and pillage the surrounding area. Everything was up to us: select the site(s), build infrastructure, forge alliances with neighbouring tribes and monsters, get resources, etc. It was loads of fun.

Quote from: Benoist;480820I've done the all-evil monster party in a sandbox, where basically the PCs formed a clan of non-humans bent on building a settlement and pillage the surrounding area. Everything was up to us: select the site(s), build infrastructure, forge alliances with neighbouring tribes and monsters, get resources, etc. It was loads of fun.

This is totally fine in my opinion. I don't see this being any more of an issue than the characters being vampires or werewolves.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480819But I am not structuring these campaigns to make us better people or instill lessons (everyone in the group has their own personal ideas about these things and that isn't my job), we do it to capture the feel of a great crime film or what have you.

Neither do I. If I have any themes to explore it's always in the form of throwing out questions and discovering how the PCs answer them.

Thanks for the example.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;480822Neither do I. If I have any themes to explore it's always in the form of throwing out questions and discovering how the PCs answer them.

Thanks for the example.

Regards,
David R

That is fair. I guess my only question is why you don't do the evil campaigns (with non-heroic violence, etc). Is it that you just don't enjoy it, you find it distasteful, or find it morally objectionable.

Just curious, not looking for another 1000 page debate or anything.

Quote from: jibbajibba;480816terrorist PCs.

This is one thing I probably wouldn't allow in my campaigns, if only because it would likely lead to all kinds of political arguments and I do know players who were personally impacted by terrorism in some way. I realize it is a little inconsistent for me to on the one hand be fine with mobsters but not okay with terrorists in a game, but I've just found the former doesn't lead to problems and the later does (at least in the games i've run).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480827That is fair. I guess my only question is why you don't do the evil campaigns (with non-heroic violence, etc). Is it that you just don't enjoy it, you find it distasteful, or find it morally objectionable.

Just curious, not looking for another 1000 page debate or anything.

Bren, most of my campaigns are what most would consider morally ambiguous. There is plenty of violence in my games. It's just that my players have never had an interest in playing iredeemabley evil characters. Their characters may not be "good" but they do live by a code. However when they are playing heroic characters, they tend to act in accordance with their own personal beliefs of what is heroic and I guess most would consider that prosaic.

Regards,
David R