Quote from: Vmerc@;480748Nope.  Not going to work.  No sidetracking this one.  He didnt say "evil" or anything else yet.  He said "dark side."  Define the term.

I was not trying to side trek anything. I just think you're a hypocrite.  Read what I wrote and respond to the point I raised if you want to. Storm didn't bring up "evil", I did.

Regards,
David R

Call me what you want.  I'm not taking the bait.  You want a response to the other stuff, start a different thread.  It's not happening here.  Waiting to find out what "darker side" has a hold on my hobby.

Quote from: David R;480757I was not trying to side trek anything. I just think you're a hypocrite.  Read what I wrote and respond to the point I raised if you want to. Storm didn't bring up "evil", I did.
R

I think a lot of us (myself included) are just arguing past one another at this stage, because it is getting a little tricky keeping track of each posters position.

I think that anytime irredeemably enemies are present in a setting en masse, whose primary purpose is to be remorselessly killed by the heroes, there is a "darker element". Exploring that with any depth almost inevitably reveals some unsavoury elements either in one's culture and unexamined assumptions or in human nature--like, for instance, why is it so satisfying to imagine remorselessly killing an endless stream of nameless enemies?  It's also easy to be careless about it and insert a racist undertone to the enemies without meaning to. At the very least it reveals a bit of imaginative laziness to make enemies irredeemably evil so that they may be cut down without moral consequence.

There are couple of easy responses to this. For one, as long as enough thought is invested to avoid the worst transgressions (such as supplying your enemy horde with a culture or appearance inspired by real world culture or race) I don't think this is necessarily so bad. Getting a fun emotional release from the visceral thrill of imagining a lot of killing isn't exactly nice, I suppose, but it does not equate with being a bad person or wanting to actually harm anyone. I've done this in the past and will likely do so in the future, and a lot of my favorite fiction is guilty of this, including almost anything that dresses the villains like Nazis.

Second, with a little thought and the willingness to invest a little thematic meaning into the killing, the unsavoury undertone can be at least mitigated. Tolkiens orcs have been brought up and they are a good example. It's clear he did put some good thought into their creation and role in Middle Earth. I think it's important to note, though, that Sauron and his orcs were ultimately defeated by Sam and Frodo, and hence by bravery, brotherly love, mercy, and a kind of guile. They were not and could not be defeated by force of arms, which would rather have missed the point.

Quote from: StormBringer;480697So, we are back to the original question.  Why aren't they using Monopoly, Backgammon or Arkham Horror instead?

What exactly tells you they are not? I can totally imagine a fucked-up SFer playing Chess with his kid and pointing out this is a great game because it recognizes that the White should go First.

EDIT

Quote from: CRKrueger;480706Stormy - You are aware that Stormfront and other racist organizations use a variety of indoctrination tools, right?  Video games, boardgames, card games, children's books all repurposed to spreading their message.

See the same point's been brought up already.

Nevermind

Regards,
David R

Quote from: two_fishes;480761why is it so satisfying to imagine remorselessly killing an endless stream of nameless enemies?

I think answers will vary with psychological makeups. From what I've seen with various players, at the base of these kinds of feelings there is the possibility of a form realization of a form of control in the make-believe you can't get in real life without a lot of strings attached to it - and NO, I don't mean killing people for real. I mean getting in a position of a responsibility where you're owned at your job, you get fucked by your boss or underlings or whatnot, you don't get to express your creativity and your potential in your life how you want to, and in a way the make-believe of the game allows you to get that frustration out by playing somebody completely unrelated in a position of control, facing clear-cut problems and enemies, to then attempt and survive to live another day.

Quote from: Benoist;480785I think answers will vary with psychological makeups. From what I've seen with various players, at the base of these kinds of feelings there is the possibility of a form realization of a form of control in the make-believe you can't get in real life without a lot of strings attached to it - and NO, I don't mean killing people for real. I mean getting in a position of a responsibility where you're owned at your job, you get fucked by your boss or underlings or whatnot, you don't get to express your creativity and your potential in your life how you want to, and in a way the make-believe of the game allows you to get that frustration out by playing somebody completely unrelated in a position of control, facing clear-cut problems and enemies, to then attempt and survive to live another day.

Maybe. But I think (when it comes to evil creatures at least) it's more like being able to do something then just merely wishing to be able to do something when faced with images or stories of evil acts/people in real life. It's about buttkicking the slavers, the tyrants, the remorseless killers, mass murderers etc. That's the carthatic element I was refering to. It's the desire to stand up for the weaker/downtrodden party. All that heroic stuff.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;480790Maybe. But I think (when it comes to evil creatures at least) it's more like being able to do something then just merely wishing to be able to do something when faced with images or stories of evil acts/people in real life. It's about buttkicking the slavers, the tyrants, the remorseless killers, mass murderers etc. That's the carthatic element I was refering to. It's the desire to stand up for the weaker/downtrodden party. All that heroic stuff.

Regards,
David R

Not just the heroic stuff. For instance at my all-female table all the players were teachers by trade (primary and high school). The pressures on the profession are tremendous: you're supposed to behave a certain way, to teach a certain way, to treat children a certain way, to interact with your colleagues and parents a certain way, to find solutions to behavioral problems in certain ways, etc. Which they do.

Once in the game, they can place themselves through their characters in different situations where they can deal with problems in different ways - not all of them diplomatic or honorable. It's cathartic in this way, and helps you release the pressure to get back to your life with renewed energy and dedication. A bit like kicking the crap out of a soccer ball after job hours.

EDIT - note that I'm not talking about escapism stricto sensu here.

Nevermind is right.  I have watched CRK and Ben work to pin this guy down for pages and page and pages, while he uses the most intellectually dishonest tactics to evade.  I can't believe the patience they have.  I certainly don't.  But as anyone who is following the conversation can see, as soon as Storm uttered the syllables "darker side" he stepped into check mate.  He knows it, I know it, and CRK and Ben both certainly know it.  I'm just waiting for him to tip over the king by defining the what "darker side" means.  It doesn't matter what his answer is, that's why he's in check mate.  All he has to do is state a definition, which he won't do, and it's over.

Quote from: Benoist;480792Not just the heroic stuff. For instance at my all-female table all the players were teachers by trade (primary and high school). The pressures on the profession are tremendous: you're supposed to behave a certain way, to teach a certain way, to treat children a certain way, to interact with your colleagues and parents a certain way, to find solutions to behavioral problems in certain ways, etc. Which they do.

Once in the game, they can place themselves through their characters in different situations where they can deal with problems in different ways - not all of them diplomatic or honorable. It's cathartic in this way, and helps you release the pressure to get back to your life with renewed energy and dedication. A bit like kicking the crap out of a soccer ball after job hours.

I agree it doesn't have to be heroic. I personally find it a kind of release valve to play a mobster on the rampage or play an outlaw cowboy going out guns blazing. The soccer ball is a good comparison.

Quote from: Benoist;480775See the same point's been brought up already.

Rule 6 here.
Do not reply to anything over 5 pages ago.  It's been done.

Quote from: David R;480790Maybe. But I think (when it comes to evil creatures at least) it's more like being able to do something then just merely wishing to be able to do something when faced with images or stories of evil acts/people in real life. It's about buttkicking the slavers, the tyrants, the remorseless killers, mass murderers etc. That's the carthatic element I was refering to. It's the desire to stand up for the weaker/downtrodden party. All that heroic stuff.

Regards,
David R

I think this is also part of it. I know for me, the joy of watching Inglorious Basterds was seeing hitler and the nazis get their due for once in a movie (it was strangley carthartic and empowering because in most other films you know the history and how it ends, so aren't expecting that big moment of revenge and there isn't much you can do to change it). In the same way, wasting a bunch of evil orcs gives people the feeling of standing against evil.

But, as in my other post, I think for the mostpart, the draw for me to violence in RPGs is purely carthartic in terms of blowing some steam, regardless of what it is directed at.

Quote from: Benoist;480792Not just the heroic stuff.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480794I agree it doesn't have to be heroic.

Very true, I meant heroic when it came to killing (evil) creatures as to two_fishes point. Playing roles other then the ones you find yourself playing in real life is another interesting aspect.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;480798But, as in my other post, I think for the mostpart, the draw for me to violence in RPGs is purely carthartic in terms of blowing some steam, regardless of what it is directed at.

I think this is where we may differ. I and the crews I have gamed with are pretty conscious of where the violence is directed and why.

Regards,
David R