SPECIAL NOTICE
Malicious code was found on the site, which has been removed, but would have been able to access files and the database, revealing email addresses, posts, and encoded passwords (which would need to be decoded). However, there is no direct evidence that any such activity occurred. REGARDLESS, BE SURE TO CHANGE YOUR PASSWORDS. And as is good practice, remember to never use the same password on more than one site. While performing housekeeping, we also decided to upgrade the forums.
This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

[everything this site loves] John Wick's at it again, Benoist writes epic reply

Started by The Butcher, October 02, 2014, 04:14:08 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

LordVreeg

Quote from: everloss;790771I've played AD&D 1 and 2 without ever using minis. I've played in games of Savage Worlds that didn't use minis (although usually they do). Same with GURPS, Cyberpunk, and Shadowrun.
I've run Lotfp, TMNT, Castles and Crusades, Basic DnD, Mechwarrior, and some other rpgs and have never used minis for any of them.  
The only rpg I've played where I would say minis were mandatory or at least very close to being mandatory is 4th edition DnD.

So, to someone like me, minis are not a requirement to play an RPG, especially older games. Only newer ones seem to require them (Savage Worlds, 3.5, Pathfinder, 4th edition)

oh, no, please at least understand, I rarely use them.  Been years since I really took the trouble, since I seem to do ok with combat anyways, when we have them.  I was just remarking that back in the day, they were completely ubiquitous.   Not about a game, more about a time.
Currently running 1 live groups and two online group in my 30+ year old campaign setting.  
http://celtricia.pbworks.com/
Setting of the Year, 08 Campaign Builders Guild awards.
\'Orbis non sufficit\'

My current Collegium Arcana online game, a test for any ruleset.

LordVreeg

Quote from: everloss;790772I'm starting to think that my friends and I had a monopoly on imagination.

Yeah.  

Funny, that's not what I'm getting from you.
Currently running 1 live groups and two online group in my 30+ year old campaign setting.  
http://celtricia.pbworks.com/
Setting of the Year, 08 Campaign Builders Guild awards.
\'Orbis non sufficit\'

My current Collegium Arcana online game, a test for any ruleset.

everloss

Quote from: LordVreeg;790786Yeah.  

Funny, that's not what I'm getting from you.

Funny, what I got from you, before you backtracked, is that you couldn't possibly imagine playing old school DnD without minis.

As someone else already said, most people then had never even heard of Chainmail (I hadn't). Nor had most kids ever been to a convention (I hadn't until my 20s). Also interesting is that several other people in this thread essentially agreed with me that they didn't use minis to play D&D in the 80s or 90s either.

I, along with others, already pointed out that most rpgs of the era (including D&D) didn't require the use of minis, or even encourage them.

While what I said about imagination was facetious at best, it was obviously meant to be. It was also followed up by examples of experience. Your experience differed from mine, and that's fine. So why be a dick about it?
Like everyone else, I have a blog
rpgpunk

crkrueger

Quote from: everloss;790771I've played AD&D 1 and 2 without ever using minis. I've played in games of Savage Worlds that didn't use minis (although usually they do). Same with GURPS, Cyberpunk, and Shadowrun.
I've run Lotfp, TMNT, Castles and Crusades, Basic DnD, Mechwarrior, and some other rpgs and have never used minis for any of them.  
The only rpg I've played where I would say minis were mandatory or at least very close to being mandatory is 4th edition DnD.

So, to someone like me, minis are not a requirement to play an RPG, especially older games. Only newer ones seem to require them (Savage Worlds, 3.5, Pathfinder, 4th edition)

There's a difference between never using them and "never heard of them until 3.5".  In my life, I've never been in a Hobby Shop, ever, that sold any RPG that didn't have some minis.  Maybe it's a west coast thing who knows, or you got all your gaming books in bookstores.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery\'s thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

LordVreeg

Quote from: everloss;790794Funny, what I got from you, before you backtracked, is that you couldn't possibly imagine playing old school DnD without minis.

As someone else already said, most people then had never even heard of Chainmail (I hadn't). Nor had most kids ever been to a convention (I hadn't until my 20s). Also interesting is that several other people in this thread essentially agreed with me that they didn't use minis to play D&D in the 80s or 90s either.

I, along with others, already pointed out that most rpgs of the era (including D&D) didn't require the use of minis, or even encourage them.

While what I said about imagination was facetious at best, it was obviously meant to be. It was also followed up by examples of experience. Your experience differed from mine, and that's fine. So why be a dick about it?

ok, You were being facetious.
Fine
Understand I am not a big miniatures guy. I rarely use them, and frankly rarely had the time for them.  I can understand that some people didn't play with them, and no, they were not required, except very early on,
But they were very much encouraged and used very heavily. TSR had their own miniatures, and the had official D&D miniatures from Grenadier.  So you misunderstood my amazement on your lack of exposure to them to be a personal allegiance.  Not a big deal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons
Let's get a good look here.  The sections of the wikipedia entry start with...
"Play overview
1.1 Game mechanics
1.2 Adventures, campaigns, and modules
1.3 Miniature figures"

Hmmm..

Wow... Not encouraged, huh?  Let's look a bit more here.

"The wargames from which Dungeons & Dragons evolved used miniature figures to represent combatants. D&D initially continued the use of miniatures in a fashion similar to its direct precursors. The original D&D set of 1974 required the use of the Chainmail miniatures game for combat resolution.[58] By the publication of the 1977 game editions, combat was mostly resolved verbally. Thus miniatures were no longer required for game play, although some players continued to use them as a visual reference.[59]

In the 1970s, numerous companies began to sell miniature figures specifically for Dungeons & Dragons and similar games. Licensed miniature manufacturers who produced official figures include Grenadier Miniatures (1980–1983),[60] Citadel Miniatures (1984–1986),[61] Ral Partha,[62] and TSR itself.[63] Most of these miniatures used the 25 mm scale, with the exception of Ral Partha's 15 mm scale miniatures for the 1st edition Battlesystem.[64][65]

Periodically, Dungeons & Dragons has returned to its wargaming roots with supplementary rules systems for miniatures-based wargaming. Supplements such as Battlesystem (1985 & 1989) and a new edition of Chainmail (2001)[66] provided rule systems to handle battles between armies by using miniatures.

Dungeons & Dragons 3rd edition (2000) assumes the use of miniatures to represent combat situations in play, an aspect of the game that was further emphasized in the v3.5 revision. The Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures Game (2003) is sold as sets of plastic, randomly assorted, pre-painted miniatures, and can be used as either part of a standard Dungeons & Dragons game or as a stand-alone collectible miniatures game.[67]"


It's fine when you say you and yours did not see miniatures around in your area.  But since much of what we are talking about is about historical context, I'd rather present the whole picture.  It was not that miniatures were used in every game, or every group, or every area.  But they were all over the gaming magazines, in every damn hobby shop, and were not only encouraged by D&D but the company produced their own and also licensed the name to Grenadier to make Official D&D miniatures.  

Now, if someone has a supported contrary view, I'd love to see how it fits in.

As for stuff like flanking rules, etc, they were actually on the same page in the 1E DMG as the comments about using official AD&D miniatures (page 70, just checked).  If you never used flanking rules until 4th, maybe this makes sense.
Currently running 1 live groups and two online group in my 30+ year old campaign setting.  
http://celtricia.pbworks.com/
Setting of the Year, 08 Campaign Builders Guild awards.
\'Orbis non sufficit\'

My current Collegium Arcana online game, a test for any ruleset.

Bren

Quote from: LordVreeg;790799"The wargames from which Dungeons & Dragons evolved used miniature figures to represent combatants. D&D initially continued the use of miniatures in a fashion similar to its direct precursors. The original D&D set of 1974 required the use of the Chainmail miniatures game for combat resolution.[58] By the publication of the 1977 game editions, combat was mostly resolved verbally. Thus miniatures were no longer required for game play, although some players continued to use them as a visual reference.[59]
The bolded bit is just wrong.

I played and DMed D&D starting in 1974 with the original brown booklets. You didn't need miniatures. None of our group of 20-30 people used miniatures. That being said, most of those people knew what miniatures were - they were something used predominantly for Napoleonics and Civil War battles. So the ubiquity of miniatures is right on target.
Currently running: Runequest in Glorantha + Call of Cthulhu   Currently playing: D&D 5E + RQ
My Blog: For Honor...and Intrigue
I have a gold medal from Ravenswing and Gronan owes me bee

Zak S

I won a jillion RPG design awards.

Buy something. 100% of the proceeds go toward legal action against people this forum hates.

Larsdangly

I actually think miniatures always or nearly always improve the D&D experience, but not to mark detailed movement in combat. There is really only one fantasy combat game with tactical movement that I think is well enough written to move along at a sprightly clip (Melee/Wizard/TFT). I prefer my D&D with movement so schematic that people can move their little lead figures about more or less when and where they wish, provided they don't violate in any obvious way what is going on in the scene. Nevertheless, a few figures and a battle mat with a piece or two of scenery brighten up the table, help people stay focused, and facilitate quick decision making when something dramatic is happening.

Iosue

Quote from: LordVreeg;790799It's fine when you say you and yours did not see miniatures around in your area.  But since much of what we are talking about is about historical context, I'd rather present the whole picture.  It was not that miniatures were used in every game, or every group, or every area.  But they were all over the gaming magazines, in every damn hobby shop, and were not only encouraged by D&D but the company produced their own and also licensed the name to Grenadier to make Official D&D miniatures.  
I would just say that for a whole picture, one mustn't forget the regular D&D line.  Miniatures get a throwaway paragraph in the back of Moldvay, and are hardly mentioned at all in Mentzer (basically, a shout-out to Official Dungeons & Dragons® miniatures), and neither B/X nor BECMI contain any specific rules for using miniatures or battlemaps at all.  Even BECMI's War Machine rules for mass battles was explicitly designed to be used without miniatures.

None of which is to invalidate your point.  But, a lot of people got their start with one of the Basic sets and moved on to AD&D from there.  Not needing miniatures in Basic, they continued to play AD&D in the same way, with miniatures a peripheral thing.

Simlasa

Quote from: Zak S;790803This morning me and John Wick talked about this in person, here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFqVdN09iyg&spfreload=1
The talk of emergent qualities of some games... such as bluffing in Poker... emphasizes how D&D isn't chess because a group can play an entire session of D&D without engaging with The Rules, without rolling the dice a single time... but if two guys sit down to play Chess and no pieces are ever moved... they're just not playing Chess.


Bedrockbrendan

Quote from: Zak S;790803This morning me and John Wick talked about this in person, here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFqVdN09iyg&spfreload=1

That was a very interesting conversation Zak. I think away from the craziness of online back and forth, you guys managed to have a real discussion. Thanks for posting it.

LordVreeg

Quote from: Iosue;790810I would just say that for a whole picture, one mustn't forget the regular D&D line.  Miniatures get a throwaway paragraph in the back of Moldvay, and are hardly mentioned at all in Mentzer (basically, a shout-out to Official Dungeons & Dragons® miniatures), and neither B/X nor BECMI contain any specific rules for using miniatures or battlemaps at all.  Even BECMI's War Machine rules for mass battles was explicitly designed to be used without miniatures.

None of which is to invalidate your point.  But, a lot of people got their start with one of the Basic sets and moved on to AD&D from there.  Not needing miniatures in Basic, they continued to play AD&D in the same way, with miniatures a peripheral thing.
Good Lord, yes.
No, the point wasn't at any point to say that you needed them to play the game or that everyone did, I think I made that clear.  Not every group I played in or ran did, but they came out often. But they were an optional part of the game and very, very prevalent in the zeitgeist of the game, and that is the Historical Point I am making.  The fact that they were mentioned in the early books explains exactly that,

And Bren, please go look at the cover of your 1974 books.   Sheesh, it's right there.  
"Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns Playable with Pencil and Papers and Miniature Figures"  Not saying you player RAW or that you are remembering incorrectly, but before you say a source is wrong, do a bit of research yourself.  There were, if memory serves, the normal combat resolution, as mentioned above, and the alternative version postulated in the Men and Magic book.
Currently running 1 live groups and two online group in my 30+ year old campaign setting.  
http://celtricia.pbworks.com/
Setting of the Year, 08 Campaign Builders Guild awards.
\'Orbis non sufficit\'

My current Collegium Arcana online game, a test for any ruleset.

Bren

Quote from: LordVreeg;790841And Bren, please go look at the cover of your 1974 books.   Sheesh, it's right there.  
"Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns Playable with Pencil and Papers and Miniature Figures"  Not saying you player RAW or that you are remembering incorrectly, but before you say a source is wrong, do a bit of research yourself.  There were, if memory serves, the normal combat resolution, as mentioned above, and the alternative version postulated in the Men and Magic book.
I know what the cover says. But the wiki source is just wrong. What the cover says is irrelevant to what actual play requires. Because "requires" has a different meaning than allows, facilitates, or includes. You can use miniatures and eventually many of us did. But you don't need to use miniatures to play OD&D.

As a tangential note this is a great example of why relying only on written primary sources can result in erroneous conclusions.
Currently running: Runequest in Glorantha + Call of Cthulhu   Currently playing: D&D 5E + RQ
My Blog: For Honor...and Intrigue
I have a gold medal from Ravenswing and Gronan owes me bee

dragoner

Quote from: Zak S;790803This morning me and John Wick talked about this in person, here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFqVdN09iyg&spfreload=1

I couldn't get past the first few minutes: "Here I am holding a book of rules about chess, I don't know what I am doing?"

Ok, whatever.
The most beautiful peonies I ever saw ... were grown in almost pure cat excrement.
-Vonnegut