I've been looking at the Intentions Phase from D&D for a while as a good framework to use for my own game, but I can't help but wonder: Is there a way to build a combat system where everyone moves at once?

The idea I have for one such is this:

- With Grid (Hex or Square) ((3 Second Rounds))

#1 - DM details the location, then determines Max Speed for each participant and places tokens/units/etc.
#2 - Roll Initiative for each participant (The higher you roll, the more priority you have for the coming steps)
#3 - When all players are ready, begin moving units, one space at a time until everyone has moved the entirety of their Speed
#4 - At any point, when doing anything besides moving at normal speed, call 'Stop' and announce action. "Grab a stool, begin aiming my gun, prepare spell, start running/sprinting", etc. / If multiple people call 'Stop', Initiative Order, as needed, determines who gets priority with actions. If someone wants to try and hide what they're doing, within reason, they roll Sleight of Hand against Spot Hidden of the opponents who can reasonably see them.
#5 - Once actions are decided or resolved, continue moving until the turn ends or another 'Stop' is called. Take stock and reset for next round. (Actions will eat up time from these turns.)

A bit mechanical, but could work if everyone is in sync.

- Without Grid (Speed = Max Distance with no other actions)

#1 - DM details the location, and where every participant will begin.
#2 - Roll Initiative for each participant (Same rules as above)
#3 - When all players are ready, DM counts out loud 'Start, 1, 2, 3'
#4 - Same as Rule #4 above. Call 'Stop' if doing anything besides moving normally, and state what. If multiple people call the 'Stop', Initiative determines priority, and Sleight of Hand/Spot Hidden rolls also come in as needed.
#5 - Once actions are decided or resolved, continue moving until another 'Stop' is called or '3' is called. Once it is, take stock and reset for next round.

Much looser, and could use gestures as shorthand for what kinds of actions everyone is doing or who they're targeting.

Thoughts, or alternatives?

Hackmaster uses a "second" system with every action taking a certain amount of seconds. You can react and change actions (at a penalty) if you change your mind mid action.

Quote from: Shasarak on March 04, 2021, 09:59:04 PM
Hackmaster uses a "second" system with every action taking a certain amount of seconds. You can react and change actions (at a penalty) if you change your mind mid action.

I've heard of that game before. Good to see it has a free version on offer; I'll give that a look.

(I believe Aces and Eights also uses a system like this, as well as Scion.)

I'm wondering why you are having everyone move one bit at a time when, if you use the intentions phase, you already know what everyone is going to do anyway. For example, if some of the PCs charge the monsters and the monsters are also charging, you can just have them meet in the middle.

Sometimes this results in the PCs not making the optimal move but, for me, this just represents the chaos of the combat (plus it's much faster to resolve if everyone just sticks to their original plan).

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 04, 2021, 11:06:36 PM
I'm wondering why you are having everyone move one bit at a time when, if you use the intentions phase, you already know what everyone is going to do anyway. For example, if some of the PCs charge the monsters and the monsters are also charging, you can just have them meet in the middle.

Sometimes this results in the PCs not making the optimal move but, for me, this just represents the chaos of the combat (plus it's much faster to resolve if everyone just sticks to their original plan).

The way I was figuring it, if everyone was moving all at once, responding to sudden changes in actions by either the players or DM would be a bit easier while still allowing for some chaos to unfold. An enemy pulling a gun the players didn't see, one of the players retreating suddenly, etc.

The Hackmaster method Shasarak pointed out would also work for what I have in mind, but something like the Intentions Phase, just with both sides moving at once, is what I'm interested in working towards. Maybe it's too complicated for anything besides the Real-Time With Pause system that Baldur's Gate used, but who knows.

There are a number of ways to work initiative, but I do think that a system needs to be built with the initiative system in mind from the ground up rather than slapping a new initiative system into a already made game.

But if you're looking for ideas of how to make movement more fluid, here's the initiative system for the "swashbuckling space western RPG" that I've been working on. (Space Dogs RPG) It's basically a side-based phase system.

A Full Turn –
1. Initiative/Morale Phase: Each side rolls a 3d10 to decide order of action and on a tie the one with a character with the highest Sharpness score chooses initiative order. If the NPCs' roll fails their Morale Test then they break.
2. Movement Phase: In initiative order each side moves and chooses their Action(s).
3. Ranged Phase: Every character who is not in melee and chose a ranged Action acts in initiative order.
4. Melee Phase: Every character who chose to Run acts in initiative order.  Then all melee attack rolls are rolled at the same time. (melee is basically opposed attack rolls)

Then you start over with the next round, re-rolling initiative/morale. It doesn't technically have everyone move at once, but everyone moves before the next phase of the round. (Also note: between needing to declare your action and melee happening all at once, going first isn't always advantageous.)

It's a bit slower than D&D style initiative, but going side-based makes it at least as fast as going individual initiative with a more default initiative.

I'm not 100% that it'd work as well with as much movement as D&D generally gives you. The standard human movement in Space Dogs is just 2 squares/round (more if you give up your attack to run) - which works since the focus is more on ranged combat with melee being secondary. Likely wouldn't want to go that slow in a fantasy game where melee is primary.

I use by-segment movement in my 1e AD&D game.

1. Both sides declare actions for the round (for the NPC opposition, this may be a bit vague from the player POV, but they should generally know that the manticore is going to attack, flee etc).
2. Resolve any pre-init actions like the start of multi-attack routines for characters in melee. Characters can move up to 10' in this phase, or at any suitable time in the round.
3. Roll initiative, d6 per side.
4. Difference in d6 rolls if any gives the number of segments the higher roll side can act (spellcast, move etc) before the lower roll side starts acting. If d6s match then movement is simultaneous by segment.

I use the base 'dungeon' move in all (non-hindering) terrain, so eg with 120' move you always move 12' per segment. In an extreme case of a 6-1 roll you might move 5x12' = 60' before the other side can act, but that is rare. Usually you get 0-3 segments of movement, then after that it's resolved simultaneously, 1 segment at a time.

IME it's VERY VERY important to use group init for this style. Individual init is for the stop-motion approach like 3e-5e's default system, and would add far too much complexity to a simultaneous-move system.

Edit: An individual's OODA loop is roughly the length of an AD&D segment of course, so individual characters should be able to make reasonable by-segment adjustments (eg turn to face an attacker, stop before running off the suddenly-revealed cliff). Squad-level OODA loop is much longer - not a full minute, but certainly more like 15-30 seconds, so it makes sense that the group itself can only coordinate at a much slower rate than the individual segment.

This sounds like the movement in Star Fleet Battles. I never want to see something like that used in an RPG.

Quote from: AgentBJ09 on March 05, 2021, 12:37:58 AMThe way I was figuring it, if everyone was moving all at once, responding to sudden changes in actions by either the players or DM would be a bit easier while still allowing for some chaos to unfold. An enemy pulling a gun the players didn't see, one of the players retreating suddenly, etc.

I've been running D&D without using Initiative for years now and I've never really run into this as a problem.

Why would an enemy pulling a gun or a player retreating require all these extra mechanics? For the pulling a gun scenario, this would only really be an issue outside of combat. As for the player suddenly retreating, either the monster pursues in which case you just compare speeds or make some sort of running check, or the monster doesn't and you place the monster as if it had moved a bit before giving up.

I guess the main point I'm trying to make is that it really doesn't matter if a character changes his action 1/3 of the way through the round compared to halfway or 3/4th of the way. Just put every action change at halfway through the round (half the movement value) and go from there.

Battletech uses this. Initiative is determined, then it typically plays out as the unit with the lowest initiative goes first. All movement is resolved, then it shifts to the firing phase; all ranged attacks occur simultaneously, so even if you core your target he still gets shots off.

Physical attacks work similarly but only -after- the shooting phase has been resolved. So if a Mech gets destroyed during firing phase, it cannot make physical attacks.

Quote from: AgentBJ09 on March 04, 2021, 08:50:58 PM
I've been looking at the Intentions Phase from D&D for a while as a good framework to use for my own game, but I can't help but wonder: Is there a way to build a combat system where everyone moves at once?

This isn't exactly what you seem to have in mind, but here's how I run combat in my original D&D games:

https://www.philotomy.net/rules/combat_sequence/

It breaks up movement (and other actions) into different phases of the round.

One of the few good things about the attempt by Paradigm Studios to make their own system for Arcanis was their action clock. The short version was each action had a speed. When you performed that action you advanced your clock by the speed and the new number became the next count you acted on. Stuns and similar moves also advanced your clock, delaying your next action. Advanced maneuvers had a recovery speed... a time where you could act again, but at the cost of stamina. Actions on the same count resolve simultaneously.

You could also "push" an action by advancing your clock when it wasn't your turn, but only once until you reach your next count (this was their version of reactions/interrupt actions).

The result felt a bit more immediate and less sequential than WotC D&D turns do since you could literally only do one thing at a time instead of getting your standard, move, swift/minor/bonus all together on your turn.

This DungeonCraft episode is one of the best systems I have seen for handling a real "everyone moves at once" style of combat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_mxYKzEjms

The one downside to this is that it does really help if it is done with mini's or tokens on a IRL table top or VTT.

You don't need to be a slave to the grid at all, but the relationship and positioning do matter.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on March 05, 2021, 01:17:39 AM
There are a number of ways to work initiative, but I do think that a system needs to be built with the initiative system in mind from the ground up rather than slapping a new initiative system into a already made game.

But if you're looking for ideas of how to make movement more fluid, here's the initiative system for the "swashbuckling space western RPG" that I've been working on. (Space Dogs RPG) It's basically a side-based phase system.

A Full Turn –
1. Initiative/Morale Phase: Each side rolls a 3d10 to decide order of action and on a tie the one with a character with the highest Sharpness score chooses initiative order. If the NPCs' roll fails their Morale Test then they break.
2. Movement Phase: In initiative order each side moves and chooses their Action(s).
3. Ranged Phase: Every character who is not in melee and chose a ranged Action acts in initiative order.
4. Melee Phase: Every character who chose to Run acts in initiative order.  Then all melee attack rolls are rolled at the same time. (melee is basically opposed attack rolls)

Then you start over with the next round, re-rolling initiative/morale. It doesn't technically have everyone move at once, but everyone moves before the next phase of the round. (Also note: between needing to declare your action and melee happening all at once, going first isn't always advantageous.)

It's a bit slower than D&D style initiative, but going side-based makes it at least as fast as going individual initiative with a more default initiative.

I'm not 100% that it'd work as well with as much movement as D&D generally gives you. The standard human movement in Space Dogs is just 2 squares/round (more if you give up your attack to run) - which works since the focus is more on ranged combat with melee being secondary. Likely wouldn't want to go that slow in a fantasy game where melee is primary.

Hmm. I can see the rerolling initiative part working with a speed penalty for being too badly hurt or having one or both of one's legs crippled/disabled. I've already got a system in mind to track damage to certain body parts when using a Called Shot.

Good luck with your project.

Quote from: S'mon on March 05, 2021, 04:07:14 AM
I use by-segment movement in my 1e AD&D game.

1. Both sides declare actions for the round (for the NPC opposition, this may be a bit vague from the player POV, but they should generally know that the manticore is going to attack, flee etc).
2. Resolve any pre-init actions like the start of multi-attack routines for characters in melee. Characters can move up to 10' in this phase, or at any suitable time in the round.
3. Roll initiative, d6 per side.
4. Difference in d6 rolls if any gives the number of segments the higher roll side can act (spellcast, move etc) before the lower roll side starts acting. If d6s match then movement is simultaneous by segment.

I use the base 'dungeon' move in all (non-hindering) terrain, so eg with 120' move you always move 12' per segment. In an extreme case of a 6-1 roll you might move 5x12' = 60' before the other side can act, but that is rare. Usually you get 0-3 segments of movement, then after that it's resolved simultaneously, 1 segment at a time.

IME it's VERY VERY important to use group init for this style. Individual init is for the stop-motion approach like 3e-5e's default system, and would add far too much complexity to a simultaneous-move system.

Edit: An individual's OODA loop is roughly the length of an AD&D segment of course, so individual characters should be able to make reasonable by-segment adjustments (eg turn to face an attacker, stop before running off the suddenly-revealed cliff). Squad-level OODA loop is much longer - not a full minute, but certainly more like 15-30 seconds, so it makes sense that the group itself can only coordinate at a much slower rate than the individual segment.

Hence why I was thinking of the 'Stop' command that players and the DM can call when they're doing something. It gives a small window for everyone to reassess their situation and change their plans if they wish to, which would be resolved via Initiative scores.

Would only be useful if the combat system was running in increments, though.

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 05, 2021, 07:31:50 AM
This sounds like the movement in Star Fleet Battles. I never want to see something like that used in an RPG.

Never heard of Star Fleet Battles until now. On first glance though, it does use the Hex grid for movement and direction facing, which I want to do as well, but beyond that, I won't be designing rules that in depth for a system like mine.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 05, 2021, 08:05:37 AM

Quote from: AgentBJ09 on March 05, 2021, 12:37:58 AMThe way I was figuring it, if everyone was moving all at once, responding to sudden changes in actions by either the players or DM would be a bit easier while still allowing for some chaos to unfold. An enemy pulling a gun the players didn't see, one of the players retreating suddenly, etc.

I've been running D&D without using Initiative for years now and I've never really run into this as a problem.

Why would an enemy pulling a gun or a player retreating require all these extra mechanics? For the pulling a gun scenario, this would only really be an issue outside of combat. As for the player suddenly retreating, either the monster pursues in which case you just compare speeds or make some sort of running check, or the monster doesn't and you place the monster as if it had moved a bit before giving up.

I guess the main point I'm trying to make is that it really doesn't matter if a character changes his action 1/3 of the way through the round compared to halfway or 3/4th of the way. Just put every action change at halfway through the round (half the movement value) and go from there.

Hmm. I would disagree there because a lot can change within a second, or 1/3 of a round in my case. I still have some considerations to make though, so we'll see.

(Nice avatar, by the way. Good times, that episode.)

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 05, 2021, 08:06:00 AM
Battletech uses this. Initiative is determined, then it typically plays out as the unit with the lowest initiative goes first. All movement is resolved, then it shifts to the firing phase; all ranged attacks occur simultaneously, so even if you core your target he still gets shots off.

Physical attacks work similarly but only -after- the shooting phase has been resolved. So if a Mech gets destroyed during firing phase, it cannot make physical attacks.

My only experience with Battletech is the Hairbrained Schemes game that came out a while ago. It looks cool, without a doubt, and the order of actions you described is nice and simple. I'll keep it in mind.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament on March 05, 2021, 08:34:28 AM

Quote from: AgentBJ09 on March 04, 2021, 08:50:58 PM
I've been looking at the Intentions Phase from D&D for a while as a good framework to use for my own game, but I can't help but wonder: Is there a way to build a combat system where everyone moves at once?

This isn't exactly what you seem to have in mind, but here's how I run combat in my original D&D games:

https://www.philotomy.net/rules/combat_sequence/

It breaks up movement (and other actions) into different phases of the round.

No, but I do like the way the order of actions works, how both sides get movement priority in separate phases and the round ends with melee combat. If you're cool with it, I'd like to see what I can do with this set-up.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 05, 2021, 11:38:58 AM
One of the few good things about the attempt by Paradigm Studios to make their own system for Arcanis was their action clock. The short version was each action had a speed. When you performed that action you advanced your clock by the speed and the new number became the next count you acted on. Stuns and similar moves also advanced your clock, delaying your next action. Advanced maneuvers had a recovery speed... a time where you could act again, but at the cost of stamina. Actions on the same count resolve simultaneously.

You could also "push" an action by advancing your clock when it wasn't your turn, but only once until you reach your next count (this was their version of reactions/interrupt actions).

The result felt a bit more immediate and less sequential than WotC D&D turns do since you could literally only do one thing at a time instead of getting your standard, move, swift/minor/bonus all together on your turn.

I remember White Wolf's Scion game using a system like this too. Same with Aces and Eights. I only own the former, though; the latter I didn't know a thing about until Spoony from TGWTG brought it up in one of his Counter Monkey videos, how it keeps track of everything from how fast you can pull your gun, cock the hammer, get a shot off, etc.

I'll give Paradigm's version a look, see if something about it strikes me.

Quote from: Jaeger on March 05, 2021, 01:40:27 PM
This DungeonCraft episode is one of the best systems I have seen for handling a real "everyone moves at once" style of combat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_mxYKzEjms

The one downside to this is that it does really help if it is done with mini's or tokens on a IRL table top or VTT.

You don't need to be a slave to the grid at all, but the relationship and positioning do matter.

Hmm. The 5E 'different die for new Initiative rolls' probably wouldn't work without a bit of tweaking; I'm using only D6 dice for my system, but it would work for a TOTM kind of game.

Otherwise, I can get where this guy's coming from with taking turns. I started with 3.5 back in '06, and man was getting to my turn a drag, even with Pathfinder 1.0. The system he's describing, though? Between it and the Paradigm/Scion/Aces and Eights systems...I'd have to play with both and see what sticks out more, but after watching that video, I'm leaning more towards the DungeonCraft version. Especially since I prefer using a mat with minis as opposed to TOTM, but if both options are on the table for the players and DMs, then everyone's happy.

Quote from: AgentBJ09 on March 05, 2021, 08:38:46 PM
...I do like the way the order of actions works, how both sides get movement priority in separate phases and the round ends with melee combat. If you're cool with it, I'd like to see what I can do with this set-up.

Sure. It's basically the sequence from Chainmail and Swords & Spells with a few tweaks; I don't have any special claim to it. (And even if I did, I'd have no problem with someone else using it.)

If you try it out let me know how it goes.