Quote from: palaeomerus on August 12, 2021, 08:42:32 PM
I mean...you can see that the death knights are basically rip offs of nazguls right?

The Fiend Folio said there were 12, they were fallen paladins, they ride on nightmares, have heavy spell resistance, can cause spells to rebound on caster sometimes, can control undead like a cleric, can cast a big fireball and a few other spells. Might have something to do with Demogorgon.  Basically the high level fighter version of a lich.

And the guy talking about fallen druids...explaining Tolkien in terms of Terry Brooks is a warcrime in some parts of the world. Like Walmart and Pizza Hut.

You saw what I did there.  You have seen what you were not supposed to see.   

And what would be wrong with a Pizza Hut IN a Walmart? 

I'm too old to see Sauron as anything that comes after him.  As a fantastical analog for Satan, just a hint.  (Not an "allegory" for Satan, either, for obvious reasons and the deeper ones that Tolkien gave.)

Now, do I see death knights as Sauron?  No.  Agree with palaeomerus, watered-down Nazgul is most of the source material.  Not that there's anything wrong with "watered-down" source material for monsters.  I mean, a medusa and a gorgon are both watered-down from the source, and still useful monsters.

  The movie scene did not really make me think deathknight.  It did make me think a heavy armored Ogre with a really well made melee weapon would be a massive force multiplier in an other wise well matched infantry melee.   I do not mean the D&D iteration, I mean an actual physical sized ogre in a realistic melee fight (GURPS comes to mind) where the size, strength and leverages come directly into play with the sort of armor such a creature would be capable of wearing and moving around in.

Quote from: oggsmash on August 13, 2021, 08:24:10 AM
  The movie scene did not really make me think deathknight.  It did make me think a heavy armored Ogre with a really well made melee weapon would be a massive force multiplier in an other wise well matched infantry melee.   I do not mean the D&D iteration, I mean an actual physical sized ogre in a realistic melee fight (GURPS comes to mind) where the size, strength and leverages come directly into play with the sort of armor such a creature would be capable of wearing and moving around in.

Fun fact in that regard; in the final big battle in thr Return of the King film Aragorn was originally going to fight Sauron himself at the Black Gate because someone thought it'd be cool until someone realized that it utterly ruined the entire point with Frodo and the Ring and so they digitally overlayed a troll (basically a Tolkien ogre) onto the Sauron they had actually filmed Aragorn fighting (there's even still isolated frames where some of the spikes on Sauron's crown can be seen through the overlay).

So in that case Sauron literally became an Ogre for that final battle (and the entire franchise was infinitely better for it).

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 13, 2021, 08:31:44 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on August 13, 2021, 08:24:10 AM
  The movie scene did not really make me think deathknight.  It did make me think a heavy armored Ogre with a really well made melee weapon would be a massive force multiplier in an other wise well matched infantry melee.   I do not mean the D&D iteration, I mean an actual physical sized ogre in a realistic melee fight (GURPS comes to mind) where the size, strength and leverages come directly into play with the sort of armor such a creature would be capable of wearing and moving around in.

Fun fact in that regard; in the final big battle in thr Return of the King film Aragorn was originally going to fight Sauron himself at the Black Gate because someone thought it'd be cool until someone realized that it utterly ruined the entire point with Frodo and the Ring and so they digitally overlayed a troll (basically a Tolkien ogre) onto the Sauron they had actually filmed Aragorn fighting (there's even still isolated frames where some of the spikes on Sauron's crown can be seen through the overlay).

So in that case Sauron literally became an Ogre for that final battle (and the entire franchise was infinitely better for it).

  Glad they went that route, otherwise I think it badly cheapens what Sauron is if a guy who struggled to kill an Uruk Hai captain can fight Sauron in a duel.

Quote from: oggsmash on August 13, 2021, 08:42:50 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 13, 2021, 08:31:44 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on August 13, 2021, 08:24:10 AM
  The movie scene did not really make me think deathknight.  It did make me think a heavy armored Ogre with a really well made melee weapon would be a massive force multiplier in an other wise well matched infantry melee.   I do not mean the D&D iteration, I mean an actual physical sized ogre in a realistic melee fight (GURPS comes to mind) where the size, strength and leverages come directly into play with the sort of armor such a creature would be capable of wearing and moving around in.

Fun fact in that regard; in the final big battle in thr Return of the King film Aragorn was originally going to fight Sauron himself at the Black Gate because someone thought it'd be cool until someone realized that it utterly ruined the entire point with Frodo and the Ring and so they digitally overlayed a troll (basically a Tolkien ogre) onto the Sauron they had actually filmed Aragorn fighting (there's even still isolated frames where some of the spikes on Sauron's crown can be seen through the overlay).

So in that case Sauron literally became an Ogre for that final battle (and the entire franchise was infinitely better for it).

  Glad they went that route, otherwise I think it badly cheapens what Sauron is if a guy who struggled to kill an Uruk Hai captain can fight Sauron in a duel.

Well, and it also makes the action nobler too.

Aragorn isn't the traditional action hero going into battle against the Big Bad hoping for a victory. He's wading into a no-win battle with cannon fodder as a distraction to buy Frodo more time to get the Ring to Mount Doom on the pure faith that Frodo hasn't already been captured or killed already.

It's only the Eucatastrophe of the Ring's destruction that saves him and puts all the focus onto the pair of small folk who carried the Ring as far as they possibly could and on the divine providence that carried the Ring over the edge.

Which is why The Lord of the Rings is a timeless classic that will have just as much relevance a century from now as it does today while virtually no one will remember the tax policies of the kings in A Game of Thrones (its barely even on the pop culture radar at this point... and mostly in the "oh, its that actor from GoT in this film" sense).

Death Knights are to Sauron what A Song of Ice and Fire is to The Lord of the Rings; pale shadows that wish they could be as cool as the classic.

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 13, 2021, 09:24:55 AM
Death Knights are to Sauron what A Song of Ice and Fire is to The Lord of the Rings; pale shadows that wish they could be as cool as the classic.

Death Knights actually have a personality and agency not some kind of disembodied eye floating over a tower.

So no, Sauron is not a Death Knight

Quote from: Shasarak on August 13, 2021, 05:54:22 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 13, 2021, 09:24:55 AM
Death Knights are to Sauron what A Song of Ice and Fire is to The Lord of the Rings; pale shadows that wish they could be as cool as the classic.

Death Knights actually have a personality and agency not some kind of disembodied eye floating over a tower.

So no, Sauron is not a Death Knight

When he has the ring, he is much more than some eye over a tower.  He wipes the battlefield with his Mace, and doesn't heal anyone.  He fights face to face, and he also commands evil creatures.  He plots, and schemes, and plans; and then he releases carnage across the landscape.

Quote from: Jam The MF on August 13, 2021, 06:57:35 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on August 13, 2021, 05:54:22 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 13, 2021, 09:24:55 AM
Death Knights are to Sauron what A Song of Ice and Fire is to The Lord of the Rings; pale shadows that wish they could be as cool as the classic.

Death Knights actually have a personality and agency not some kind of disembodied eye floating over a tower.

So no, Sauron is not a Death Knight

When he has the ring, he is much more than some eye over a tower.  He wipes the battlefield with his Mace, and doesn't heal anyone.  He fights face to face, and he also commands evil creatures.  He plots, and schemes, and plans; and then he releases carnage across the landscape.

Yeah, in his flash backs.