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Even 4E D&D; is being proposed by some, as an alternative to 5E D&D.

Started by Jam The MF, September 21, 2023, 12:56:05 AM

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Eldrad

#45
September 25, 2023, 12:02:02 AM
I really like 4E until about 7th level, then almost all battles took HOURS! IF the monster was too much, always a TPK. The sad thing is the playtesters that I talked to TOLD WOTC the obvious problems with the game, they obviously didn't listen.

mAcular Chaotic

#46
September 25, 2023, 12:22:12 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 24, 2023, 09:53:39 PM
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on September 24, 2023, 02:30:18 AM
I think 4e is fine, as long as you play it for what it is.

But the fact people need a computer and digital tools to keep all the floating modifiers and effects straight tells you it has problems as just a paper and pencil game.
4e has singificantly less floating modifiers and the like then 3e. I mean almost completly none. I find 3e the one that bashes your skull in with 300 buffs you can use to smash the internal mathematical spine.

I dunno about 3e, but 4e has lots of lingering conditions and various reactions you can do, so combat often involves tracking and remembering lots of conditions and someone reacting to someone reacting to someone else and what were we doing again?
Battle doesn\'t need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don\'t ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don\'t ask why I fight.

Ghostmaker

#47
September 25, 2023, 09:42:50 PM
Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 21, 2023, 08:14:58 PM
Quote from: Hzilong on September 21, 2023, 07:57:54 PM
Yeah, that's more or less how I view 4e as well. It was alright when I played it and read through it. Not spectacular, but hardly a train wreck. I get the big criticism about it that it was such a departure from previous editions that 4e probably should not have been marketed as a D&D edition and instead might have done better as a spin-off. Regardless, I don't really get the animosity I see towards it. Granted, I only ever did one-shots or short forays into it so maybe 4e doesn't work as well in long-term games.

I've said this many times. If 4e had been released as a miniatures skirmish game without the D&D branding my gaming group and I probably would have liked it.

As a D&D game I hate it.
Hell, they could've called it D&D Tactics or Chainmail 2 and it wouldn't have irked people so bad.

Ruprecht

#48
September 25, 2023, 09:44:57 PM
Wasn't part of the plan of 4E was to move away from the OGL and SRD?
Since Pathfinder passed them up soon after if that was a goal it was a bad move.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing. ~Robert E. Howard

RebelSky

#49
September 26, 2023, 04:35:30 AM

5e is a redone 4e Essentials with the best parts stripped out of it and 5e won over all the story forge gamers, which 4e didn't do, so there's that. 5e is way more of a forge game than 4e.

Mistwell

#50
September 26, 2023, 09:45:58 AM
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on September 24, 2023, 02:47:56 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on September 24, 2023, 02:47:03 AM
Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 21, 2023, 08:23:01 PM
Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 21, 2023, 08:14:58 PM
Quote from: Hzilong on September 21, 2023, 07:57:54 PM
Yeah, that's more or less how I view 4e as well. It was alright when I played it and read through it. Not spectacular, but hardly a train wreck. I get the big criticism about it that it was such a departure from previous editions that 4e probably should not have been marketed as a D&D edition and instead might have done better as a spin-off. Regardless, I don't really get the animosity I see towards it. Granted, I only ever did one-shots or short forays into it so maybe 4e doesn't work as well in long-term games.

I've said this many times. If 4e had been released as a miniatures skirmish game without the D&D branding my gaming group and I probably would have liked it.

As a D&D game I hate it.

Though I suspect with everything we are hearing about 6th edition (they're not fooling anyone, it is 6th edition) it is going to be far, far worse than 4th.

Really, almost nobody left is calling it 6th edition anymore if they've read where the playtest is at right now. Those claims disappeared with the last several iterations. They discarded almost every "new" thing about it, and it's now mostly errata, codifying people's most common houserules, and a few tweaks.

My guess is what you're "hearing" is from the first several versions of the playtest, back when they were testing some more radical new ideas. Almost all of those were junked. It's now definitely backwards compatible (more so than 3.5 was with 3.0 in my opinion) and the most common complaint is it's not changing enough to even be called 5.5e.
I don't get why they're even making it anymore.

Just a wild guess: money?

Omega

#51
September 26, 2023, 10:01:09 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on September 24, 2023, 12:51:57 AM
Quote from: Omega on September 23, 2023, 11:59:36 PM
4vengers never give up.

Neither do 4E haters.

Thats because the 4vengers never fucking give up in their little hate campaign.

Omega

#52
September 26, 2023, 10:02:46 AM
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on September 24, 2023, 02:30:18 AM
I think 4e is fine, as long as you play it for what it is.

But the fact people need a computer and digital tools to keep all the floating modifiers and effects straight tells you it has problems as just a paper and pencil game.

I did not see that problem with 4e's version of Gamma World.

Eric Diaz

#53
September 26, 2023, 11:32:51 AM
Quote from: RebelSky on September 26, 2023, 04:35:30 AM

5e is a redone 4e Essentials with the best parts stripped out of it and 5e won over all the story forge gamers, which 4e didn't do, so there's that. 5e is way more of a forge game than 4e.

More of a forge game than 4e? How so?

Just curious.

I have made the opposite point a few years ago (although I liked 5e at the time); i.e., 4e is purely gamist, to the point of cubic fireballs, while 5e is a bit of simulation/game/narrative or whatever.

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2015/11/d-5th-edition-bringing-balance-to-forge.html
Chaos Factory Books  - Dark fantasy RPGs and more!

Methods & Madness - my  D&D 5e / Old School / Game design blog.

Shrieking Banshee

#54
September 26, 2023, 01:03:41 PM
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on September 25, 2023, 12:22:12 AMI dunno about 3e, but 4e has lots of lingering conditions and various reactions you can do, so combat often involves tracking and remembering lots of conditions and someone reacting to someone reacting to someone else and what were we doing again?

well we are talking about in-combat condition tracking moreso then modifiers which is different. I don't think it's 100% fair to say any mechanically heavy system doesn't actually want to be a RPG, which falls into "Only storygames are RPGs" type logic.

Quote from: Omega on September 26, 2023, 10:01:09 AM
Thats because the 4vengers never fucking give up in their little hate campaign.
On what? I found this site is still obsessed with slights given 10+ years ago, while happily indulging in said hate wether or not anybody is slighting them.

Abraxus

#55
September 26, 2023, 01:18:51 PM
Quote from: Omega on September 26, 2023, 10:01:09 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on September 24, 2023, 12:51:57 AM
Quote from: Omega on September 23, 2023, 11:59:36 PM
4vengers never give up.

Neither do 4E haters.

Thats because the 4vengers never fucking give up in their little hate campaign.

Nah absolute prime grade bullshit no one has to edition war because you want to. Not because other people defend 4E. 

Chris24601

#56
September 26, 2023, 05:15:10 PM
Quote from: Omega on September 26, 2023, 10:01:09 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on September 24, 2023, 12:51:57 AM
Quote from: Omega on September 23, 2023, 11:59:36 PM
4vengers never give up.

Neither do 4E haters.

Thats because the 4vengers never fucking give up in their little hate campaign.
Which hate campaign would that be?

Seriously, I wanna know where to find some fresh 4E players.

Or do you just mean "hate campaign" in the sense of some people expressing a preference for 4E over whatever your favorite edition is on the internet?

Armchair Gamer

#57
September 26, 2023, 05:43:50 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on September 26, 2023, 05:15:10 PM
Quote from: Omega on September 26, 2023, 10:01:09 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on September 24, 2023, 12:51:57 AM
Quote from: Omega on September 23, 2023, 11:59:36 PM
4vengers never give up.

Neither do 4E haters.

Thats because the 4vengers never fucking give up in their little hate campaign.
Which hate campaign would that be?

Seriously, I wanna know where to find some fresh 4E players.

Or do you just mean "hate campaign" in the sense of some people expressing a preference for 4E over whatever your favorite edition is on the internet?

Have you forgotten? All disagreement is hate now.  ;)
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