Quote from: KindaMeh on September 22, 2023, 05:49:56 PM
To the point of basically being a squad skirmish game. And I say that as somebody who started with 4e.

Well the 1985 video game Gauntlet was a design inspiration for 4e so that makes sense.

Quote from: Scooter on September 21, 2023, 10:26:19 AM
A TTRPG modeled after a video game is not a good replacement.  Play an OSR or something like C&C

Someone should tell WotC because they are making the same mistake today and it appears they are betting the company on it.

Quote from: Ruprecht on September 23, 2023, 10:23:10 AM

Quote from: Scooter on September 21, 2023, 10:26:19 AM
A TTRPG modeled after a video game is not a good replacement.  Play an OSR or something like C&C

Someone should tell WotC because they are making the same mistake today and it appears they are betting the company on it.

So?  Has nothing to do with my advice to a player.  What's your point?

 I am agreeing with you and saying that WotC is making the same mistake. I thought that was clear.

It's weird to think that 4e's era ended arguably 8 or 9 years ago on account of the consequences of 5e's release, and that 5e has been the mainstream almost as long. Folks who aren't at least 20 probably don't remember D&D gaming arguments and 4e during that earlier time period.

Quote from: Ruprecht on September 23, 2023, 11:52:49 AM
I am agreeing with you and saying that WotC is making the same mistake. I thought that was clear.

It was clear to everyone else.  Scooter is by far the least intelligent poster here.  He knows it.  We know it.  He knows we know it.  So every response he gives is hostile and condescending, as he desperately tries to quiet that little voice inside himself that is crying out in the knowledge that God gave a glass of grape juice a slightly higher IQ than him.  That's the only rational explanation for his behavior...

With how much you can homebrew any game, I consider the spine the most important part. Even games with a focus on improv can be judged on their ability to deliver speed with said improv.

D&D generally falls into 2 categories:

Old School is OSR, 1e-2e with games inspired by that being Worlds Without Number. It's a reasonable desire to want more grounded lower power power-level games with it. If you want updated clean design without older jank, I would recomend Sine Nominees efforts. WWN, SWN, and now CWN are all good times.

New School is 3e, and 4e. 4e is better understanding what it wants to be, but is extremely rigid to that end. Its a good framework but goes too far (Applying poison is a power, making a deal is a power, etc).

5e is new school with enough superficial garbage to make old schoolers think its old school. Its the worst of both worlds. Lots of superficial character building, yet still all the flaws of every edition of D&D with no thing its good in particular.

If you just want to be in a location and roll dice, and just making the rules on the spot isn't classy enough, 5e will suffice.

4e is great. Best version of d&d. More RP options and incredible combat.

4vengers never give up.

Quote from: Omega on September 23, 2023, 11:59:36 PM
4vengers never give up.

Neither do 4E haters.

I think 4e is fine, as long as you play it for what it is.

But the fact people need a computer and digital tools to keep all the floating modifiers and effects straight tells you it has problems as just a paper and pencil game.

Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 21, 2023, 08:23:01 PM

Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 21, 2023, 08:14:58 PM

Quote from: Hzilong on September 21, 2023, 07:57:54 PM
Yeah, that's more or less how I view 4e as well. It was alright when I played it and read through it. Not spectacular, but hardly a train wreck. I get the big criticism about it that it was such a departure from previous editions that 4e probably should not have been marketed as a D&D edition and instead might have done better as a spin-off. Regardless, I don't really get the animosity I see towards it. Granted, I only ever did one-shots or short forays into it so maybe 4e doesn't work as well in long-term games.

I've said this many times. If 4e had been released as a miniatures skirmish game without the D&D branding my gaming group and I probably would have liked it.

As a D&D game I hate it.

Though I suspect with everything we are hearing about 6th edition (they're not fooling anyone, it is 6th edition) it is going to be far, far worse than 4th.

Really, almost nobody left is calling it 6th edition anymore if they've read where the playtest is at right now. Those claims disappeared with the last several iterations. They discarded almost every "new" thing about it, and it's now mostly errata, codifying people's most common houserules, and a few tweaks.

My guess is what you're "hearing" is from the first several versions of the playtest, back when they were testing some more radical new ideas. Almost all of those were junked. It's now definitely backwards compatible (more so than 3.5 was with 3.0 in my opinion) and the most common complaint is it's not changing enough to even be called 5.5e.

Quote from: Mistwell on September 24, 2023, 02:47:03 AM

Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 21, 2023, 08:23:01 PM

Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 21, 2023, 08:14:58 PM

Quote from: Hzilong on September 21, 2023, 07:57:54 PM
Yeah, that's more or less how I view 4e as well. It was alright when I played it and read through it. Not spectacular, but hardly a train wreck. I get the big criticism about it that it was such a departure from previous editions that 4e probably should not have been marketed as a D&D edition and instead might have done better as a spin-off. Regardless, I don't really get the animosity I see towards it. Granted, I only ever did one-shots or short forays into it so maybe 4e doesn't work as well in long-term games.

I've said this many times. If 4e had been released as a miniatures skirmish game without the D&D branding my gaming group and I probably would have liked it.

As a D&D game I hate it.

Though I suspect with everything we are hearing about 6th edition (they're not fooling anyone, it is 6th edition) it is going to be far, far worse than 4th.

Really, almost nobody left is calling it 6th edition anymore if they've read where the playtest is at right now. Those claims disappeared with the last several iterations. They discarded almost every "new" thing about it, and it's now mostly errata, codifying people's most common houserules, and a few tweaks.

My guess is what you're "hearing" is from the first several versions of the playtest, back when they were testing some more radical new ideas. Almost all of those were junked. It's now definitely backwards compatible (more so than 3.5 was with 3.0 in my opinion) and the most common complaint is it's not changing enough to even be called 5.5e.

I don't get why they're even making it anymore.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on September 24, 2023, 02:47:56 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on September 24, 2023, 02:47:03 AM

Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 21, 2023, 08:23:01 PM

Quote from: Thor's Nads on September 21, 2023, 08:14:58 PM

Quote from: Hzilong on September 21, 2023, 07:57:54 PM
Yeah, that's more or less how I view 4e as well. It was alright when I played it and read through it. Not spectacular, but hardly a train wreck. I get the big criticism about it that it was such a departure from previous editions that 4e probably should not have been marketed as a D&D edition and instead might have done better as a spin-off. Regardless, I don't really get the animosity I see towards it. Granted, I only ever did one-shots or short forays into it so maybe 4e doesn't work as well in long-term games.

I've said this many times. If 4e had been released as a miniatures skirmish game without the D&D branding my gaming group and I probably would have liked it.

As a D&D game I hate it.

Though I suspect with everything we are hearing about 6th edition (they're not fooling anyone, it is 6th edition) it is going to be far, far worse than 4th.

Really, almost nobody left is calling it 6th edition anymore if they've read where the playtest is at right now. Those claims disappeared with the last several iterations. They discarded almost every "new" thing about it, and it's now mostly errata, codifying people's most common houserules, and a few tweaks.

My guess is what you're "hearing" is from the first several versions of the playtest, back when they were testing some more radical new ideas. Almost all of those were junked. It's now definitely backwards compatible (more so than 3.5 was with 3.0 in my opinion) and the most common complaint is it's not changing enough to even be called 5.5e.

I don't get why they're even making it anymore.

Cashing in as a 50th Anniversary Edition.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on September 24, 2023, 02:30:18 AM
I think 4e is fine, as long as you play it for what it is.

But the fact people need a computer and digital tools to keep all the floating modifiers and effects straight tells you it has problems as just a paper and pencil game.

4e has singificantly less floating modifiers and the like then 3e. I mean almost completly none. I find 3e the one that bashes your skull in with 300 buffs you can use to smash the internal mathematical spine.