Hi,
I'd like to ask the Pundit, in quality of historian and d20 lover:

What do you think of the Green Ronin's settings "Eternal Rome" and "Trojan War"?

Thanks

I haven't seen the "Trojan War" sourcebook. However, I have seen "Eternal Rome".  

There are basically three decent RPG sourcebooks for this subject (rome): the Roman "green cover" sourcebook for AD&D 2e; GURPS Imperial Rome, and Eternal Rome by GR. Of the three, the GURPS one is by far the best, and Eternal Rome by far the worst.

Leaving aside some rather unfortunately ideological commentary in the text of the book, the real and most direct problem with the book is that it suffers from a very serious case of multiple personality disorder. They never figure out in the book whether they want to create a sourcebook for D20 Historical Campaigns, a Fantasy D20 sourcebook, or a full-on D&D sourcebook. They try to be all those things at once, and end up doing none of the three to satisfaction.

That said, its not all bad, not by a long shot. Like I've said, I use it. The fame system is very well done, and the details about Roman government. Also, the descriptions of the roman territories are very good.

But if you're planning to run a historical roman campaign I would suggest that at the very least you try to get ahold of the GURPS sourcebook as well.

RPGPundit

Here was my review, originally from my Blog:

This is an interesting book, with some really great features, and a few that are quite poor, as the book is hampered by some unfortunate design decisions.
 
Chief among these is the decision to try to make the book fit the bog-standard D&D format.  The main obstacle to making this book truly good was its effort to jam existing D&D classes into a roman format.  Instead of redesigning the D&D classes to fit the classical roman mold, you find the classes like Bards or Druids being "romanized" (the section on Celtic Druids being relatively good, the section on Bards and non-celt druids being quite poor), and classes like Paladins or Rangers being suggested totally out of context.
 
Also, there is an effort to place demihumans into the setting, and no effort is made to alter the D&D magic system, which really doesn't fit with the "feel" of a historical roman campaign (even one with magic) at all.
 
I'm not saying the book should have been only historical, but that the fantasy elements should have been made more optional, and even then redesigned in a context that better fits the setting.
 
One good thing about the prestige classes: They are actually made the way prestige classes should be, for the most part. They are meant to fit specific occupations or groups, and would be taken for roleplaying purposes. They aren't just "advanced character classes" meant to power up your PCs.  Some of the choices are a little off, too. While the Gladiator (who gets a full-blown class), Crime Boss and Orator are all very well done, I don't really think the Pankratist or Vigile were necessary as full-blown prestige classes. The Pankratists weren't roving Shao-lin monks of the Roman world, they were just wrestlers. And the Vigil was just a glorified police/fireman which could easily be handled by the Fighter class. The Soothsayer, on the other hand, should have been a full-blown class, replacing or supplementing the cleric.
 
Far worse was the inclusion of a number of existing prestige classes from other books, none of which are really appropriate to the setting and have that same "shoved in" feel that the main classes do.
 
So what is really great about this book? Number one, above all others, is the fame mechanic. This mechanic governs the recognition and respect that your character has in the roman world, and its extremely well done, and important for any politically-themed Roman game. Also very good are the sections that deal with the roman world and history. The history section is nowhere near as detailed as GURPS Rome, but the geography section is extremely thurough (moreso than the GURPS book), and written in a very practical way to explain just what you need to know to run a character from any of the given provinces, or to adventure in any of the given provinces.
 
The section on roman culture and day-to-day life is also well done, though again, not to the level of GURPS Rome.
 
On the "bad" end of the scale you find the section on religion; its quite simplistic and incomplete, and its details on religion beyond the regular Roman pantheon is quite pathetic.  Given that in the imperial period Rome was full of mystery cults, christianity, christian "heresies", and imported religions, this is a serious omission.  Where they do mention these cults, its usually in a less than satisfactory way. Mithras is mentioned, but without specifying that his cult was a male-only secret cult. Cybele is mentioned, but without the eunuch priests. Gnosticism is reduced to three paragraphs that grossly simplify (and thus misinterpret) what the religion was all about; and the book completely wimps out on the topic of Judaism and Christianity, writing a sidebar where they basically state that the book refuses to deal with these two religions.
 
Some of the political commentary is also a bit taxing. If you were to believe the gang at Green Ronin, you would think that every part of the empire outside Rome despised Roman rule and hated the Romans, and this is simply not true. For the most part, most of the provinces were quite pleased to be part of the Empire, though of course some more than others. Most provinces within one generation of being absorbed into the Empire were contented and contributing participants in the Roman system, because it offered far more than it "cost". Only very particular places were exceptions to this (like Judea). In fact, their whole social commentary reminds me of the scene in "Life of Brian" where the Jewish revolutionaries are complaining about "what's Rome ever done for us?" and they end up with a huge list of benefits.
 
In all, the book is very hit and miss, and if you had to choose between getting this, or getting some other roman book, I would strongly advise in favor of GURPS Imperial Rome.  That said, its better still to get both, because where Eternal Rome is good, its very very good, and it can certainly add to any roman-based campaign in a big way, if you can overlook its various flaws.
 
RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditHere was my review, originally  
RPGPundit

Thanks Pundit, was looking for it I remembered something similar.
Indeed, I was more interested in Trojan War, 'cause I was thinking about something like "300" for d20. And I don't want to try that indie crap like Agone or shit.
Thanks

I have Trojan War, and I think it's better than Eternal Rome. I'd say using TW for a 300 style campaign would work out well.

Eternal Rome isn't bad, but of the Green Ronin "Mythic Vistas" book, it's probably the least interesting to me. I do think it's useful, though, and as I own both the old AD&D Historical Reference green book and the GURPS book (though it's in stoarge), I think it'd be very useful in tandem with those. You might even want to take a glance at Testament, though it might be of limited use for what you want. There is some overlap between Trojan War, Eternal Rome, and Testament, and TW and ER both mention bits and pieces that can be used from Testament for their respective milieus.

In general, Green Ronin's "Mythic Vistas" line is pretty fantastic. The ones I mention above, as well as Skull & Bones (pirates of the Spanish Main), the Medieval Player's Manual, and The Black Company, are all really nifty resources.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI have Trojan War, and I think it's better than Eternal Rome. I'd say using TW for a 300 style campaign would work out well.



In general, Green Ronin's "Mythic Vistas" line is pretty fantastic. The ones I mention above, as well as Skull & Bones (pirates of the Spanish Main), the Medieval Player's Manual, and The Black Company, are all really nifty resources.

THanks for your insight.
And yes, Mythic Vistas is great. I have The Black Company and it's magnificent. Thieves World is great. Was thinking about getting The Red Star (but too much a narrow scope for me) and Trojan War.

BTW, any other good d20 Science Fiction setting out there? Better if gritty and with not space opera stuff...

I thought Eternal Rome was total crap. Anyone who has read a decent book on Rome could do better, IMO. Nothing great in there, but If you are not well read or don't care to study Rome then the book could be of some use.

I recommend Catherine McCullough's First Man in Rome series for a source on late Republican Rome. The first book is probably the best it tells the story of Gaius Marius and Sulla. It really helped me make sense of how the republic worked.

http://www.amazon.com/First-Man-Rome-Colleen-McCullough/dp/0380710811

Enjoy
Rob Conley

I thought Eternal Rome very disappointing, apart from anything else it covers in broad detail the entire span of Roman history, but your actual game will be set at a given point in time or at least a particular period, and because it covers all of it broadly it covers none of it in enough detail to actually be of any use.

Put simply, I don't think the book meaningfully helps you run a Roman rpg, and that is my litmus test for a Roman rpg book.

I don't think it's a success, and it kludges in tons of really poorly fitting D&D concepts.  You can certainly do historical gaming with d20, but this I think does not succeed in doing that.

Quote from: BalbinusI thought Eternal Rome very disappointing, apart from anything else it covers in broad detail the entire span of Roman history, but your actual game will be set at a given point in time or at least a particular period, and because it covers all of it broadly it covers none of it in enough detail to actually be of any use.

Put simply, I don't think the book meaningfully helps you run a Roman rpg, and that is my litmus test for a Roman rpg book.

I don't think it's a success, and it kludges in tons of really poorly fitting D&D concepts.  You can certainly do historical gaming with d20, but this I think does not succeed in doing that.

Bingo.

last time I said as much on rpg.net Chris Pramas basically called me a poo-poo head.

Greeting theRPGsite Nuts, some of you may remeber this from the old I.C.E. days and it has come up in conversation of the forums once or twice of late so here it is:

Mythic Greece: The Age of Heroes (Rolemaster Fantasy Hero) - Iron Crown Enterprises
http://www.amazon.com/Mythic-Greece-Heroes-Rolemaster-Fantasy/dp/1558060022/sr=11-1/qid=1166665128/ref=sr_11_1/104-5668034-3235916

GURPS Greece - Steve Jackson Games
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Greece/

GURPS Imperial Rome - Steve Jackson Games
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/ImperialRome/

GURPS Egypt - Steve Jackson Games
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Egypt/

GURPS China - Steve Jackson Games
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/China/

GURPS All-Star Jam 2004 - Steve Jackson Games
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/allstarjam2004/

__________________

Eternal Rome (Mythic Vistas) - Green Ronin Publishing
http://www.greenronin.com/catalog/grr1410

Egyptian Adventures: Hamunaptra (Mythic Vistas) - Green Ronin Publishing
http://www.greenronin.com/catalog/grr1407

The Trojan War (Mythic Vistas) - Green Ronin Publishing
http://www.greenronin.com/catalog/grr1405

Testament: Roleplaying in the Biblical Era (Mythic Vistas) - Green Ronin Publishing
http://www.greenronin.com/catalog/grr1019


__________________

Heroes of Mythic Greece
http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/1999/nov/heroes.html

Greek Mythology: The Heroic Age
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology#Heroic_age

Thalsea! Thalsea
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=18765

__________________

Age of Empires (video game series)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Empires

Total War (video game series)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_War_%28video_game_series%29

Age of Mythology (video game series)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Mythology

__________________

Gladiator (film)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladiator_%28film%29

Troy (film)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_%28film%29

300 (film)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300_%28film%29

List of films based on Greco-Roman mythology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_based_on_Greco-Roman_mythology

Hercules: The Legendary Journeys
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules:_The_Legendary_Journeys

Xena: Warrior Princess
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xena:_Warrior_Princess

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Alexander the Great
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_great

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David Gemmell's Stones Of Power Series -- Ghost King and Last Sword of Power inclueds the Lost Legion storylines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_G...f_Power_Series

David Gemmell's Greek Series (alternate history) -- Lion of Macedon and Dark Prince. Inclued Legion type elements.

David Gemmell's Troy Series -- Troy: The Lord of the Silver Bow, Troy: Shield of Thunder, and Troy: The Fall of Kings Inclued Legion type elements.

Harry Turtledove's The Videssos Books
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_T...Videssos_Books

Fiction set in ancient Rome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiction...n_Ancient_Rome

__________________

Deviant Art Gallery Searches
Spartan
http://search.deviantart.com/?section=browse&qh=boost%3Apopular+age_sigma%3A24h+age_scale%3A5&q=Spartan


Hmmm...


QM