For Christmas this year, I was given the GI Joe RPG and am flipping through. At first glance I see it uses the Essence20 system. The core mechanic is roll d20 plus one other die to compare to the result. Weird, but okay.
Imagine my surprise when I get to the Role section to see the Rogue, Fighter, and Barbarian hiding with new names. Complete with Sneak Attack, extra feats, and Rage.
This is just D&D?
But I don't see any mention of WotC's IP here. No OGL, not even a mention in the credits.
Anyone know the backstory?
I'm pretty sure you can just google all of this but...
It's produced by Renegade Games Studios that before their Hasbro RPGs I knew them for Kids on Bikes RPG. To my knowledge, they are independent and not owned by Hasbro. They have licensed out other IPs before, most notably Vampire: The Masquerade for a card game they made and now they are doing the entire line. They also made Altered Carbon that I panned hard in my review. Here's their website: https://renegadegamestudios.com/
The first public information about the GI Joe RPG I remember is mid 2021. They licensed four Hasbro IPs to make games; Gi Joe, Transformers, Power Rangers, and My Little Pony. I'm directly aware of the first three being RPGs using their Essence 20 system.
I was puzzled (as well as many others) when I heard about Hasbro letting an outside studio do their IPs as games since they have so many in house options. I'm not sure who first approached who but given that Renegade has a history of renting IPs, it's likely they may have initiated the deal. I am not an insider, just a guy who remembers things sometimes. Take all of this with a grain of salt.
Gi Joe, Transformers, and Power Rangers are all compatible systems intentionally. There's actually a book for the GM to run a game that combines PCs from all three games. https://renegadegamestudios.com/essence-20-roleplaying-system-field-guide-to-action-and-adventure-crossover-sourcebook/
As to the Essence 20 System, it has quite a bit in common with 5e but it isn't compatible and has some of their own quirky rules. I don't hate it and it's more functional that the shitty system they saddled Altered Carbon with.
I don't own any of the Essence 20 books and I never will (unless gifted to me like you) because they shafted me with Altered Carbon. I paid full cover price for it and I'm still pissed they stole from me with a broken system. Also, they do a game called Overlight that just give me the creeps. Read for yourself and see: https://renegadegamestudios.com/overlight-rpg-core-rulebook/
Thank you, and I did grok all that, but, how is this not plagiarism?
There are word for word lifts of D&D rules. A GI Joe IP license wouldn't confer that.
There's got to be some other agreement in play, right?
Quote from: mcbobbo on December 25, 2023, 01:48:31 PM
Thank you, and I did grok all that, but, how is this not plagiarism?
There are word for word lifts of D&D rules. A GI Joe IP license wouldn't confer that.
There's got to be some other agreement in play, right?
See if there's a small line somewhere referencing the 5e SRD CC-by-4.0. Since it was placed under creative commons you don't need the full page OGL license anymore.
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 25, 2023, 04:04:31 PM
See if there's a small line somewhere referencing the 5e SRD CC-by-4.0. Since it was placed under creative commons you don't need the full page OGL license anymore.
This ^^
The SRD has been open content for a while. First it was open under the OGL and now under Creative Commons.
No mention of any license in the front or the back of the book, including Creative Commons.
A couple of other thoughts.
1. We don't know what the agreement between Renegade and Hasbro has in it. A written agreement could trump any need for posting an OGL or CC license.
2. Game mechanics and common terms are not covered under copyright laws. To protect the D&D 5e system, they would need to patent a bunch of mechanics and some were already open publicly. This would have resulted in hundreds of patents needed at $400k each.
In the end, IDK. I could get my wife to read both books very carefully and render a legal opinion but I don't think she wants to.
I'm no expert either, however this seems dangerously similar to not have some kind of permission:
QuoteRage
In battle, you fight with primal ferocity. On your turn, you can enter a rage as a bonus action.
While raging, you gain the following benefits if you aren't wearing heavy armor:
You have advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws.
When you make a melee weapon attack using Strength, you gain a bonus to the damage roll that increases as you gain levels as a barbarian, as shown in the Rage Damage column of the Barbarian table.
You have resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.
If you are able to cast spells, you can't cast them or concentrate on them while raging.
Your rage lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are knocked unconscious or if your turn ends and you haven't attacked a hostile creature since your last turn or taken damage since then. You can also end your rage on your turn as a bonus action.
Once you have raged the number of times shown for your barbarian level in the Rages column of the Barbarian table, you must finish a long rest before you can rage again.
Compared to...
Quote
Reckless Abandon
The signature style of Renegades is an aggressive and brash approach used to catch enemies off guard, and allows you to fight through the pain until the battle's over. You can start fighting with Reckless Abandon as a Free action.
While acting with Reckless Abandon, you gain the following benefits as long as you are wearing light armor or no armor:
You gain ↑2 on all Strength Skill tests.
You gain Bonus Health as shown on the Role chart. This goes away when you end your Reckless Abandon.
You cannot use kits while fighting with Reckless Abandon.
Your Reckless Abandon lasts for a minute, until there are no enemies you can see, or until you are defeated. You can also end your Reckless Abandon as a Free action.
You have a number of uses of Reckless Abandon per day as shown on the Renegade Role Chart.
Quote from: mcbobbo on December 25, 2023, 04:50:01 PM
I'm no expert either, however this seems dangerously similar to not have some kind of permission:
QuoteRage
In battle, you fight with primal ferocity. On your turn, you can enter a rage as a bonus action.
While raging, you gain the following benefits if you aren't wearing heavy armor:
You have advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws.
When you make a melee weapon attack using Strength, you gain a bonus to the damage roll that increases as you gain levels as a barbarian, as shown in the Rage Damage column of the Barbarian table.
You have resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.
If you are able to cast spells, you can't cast them or concentrate on them while raging.
Your rage lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are knocked unconscious or if your turn ends and you haven't attacked a hostile creature since your last turn or taken damage since then. You can also end your rage on your turn as a bonus action.
Once you have raged the number of times shown for your barbarian level in the Rages column of the Barbarian table, you must finish a long rest before you can rage again.
Compared to...
Quote
Reckless Abandon
The signature style of Renegades is an aggressive and brash approach used to catch enemies off guard, and allows you to fight through the pain until the battle's over. You can start fighting with Reckless Abandon as a Free action.
While acting with Reckless Abandon, you gain the following benefits as long as you are wearing light armor or no armor:
You gain ↑2 on all Strength Skill tests.
You gain Bonus Health as shown on the Role chart. This goes away when you end your Reckless Abandon.
You cannot use kits while fighting with Reckless Abandon.
Your Reckless Abandon lasts for a minute, until there are no enemies you can see, or until you are defeated. You can also end your Reckless Abandon as a Free action.
You have a number of uses of Reckless Abandon per day as shown on the Renegade Role Chart.
Just from this example, there is no violation. Period. It may be the same mechanically but there's no sentence or phrase that is identical so no copyrights were violated.
"Identical" is not the standard. "Transformative" could be, though.
Quote from: mcbobbo on December 25, 2023, 06:57:34 PM
"Identical" is not the standard. "Transformative" could be, though.
Just because it's mechanically identical, there's no protected IP in that regard. In the way it's presented, it's done in such a way as to give the reader a different impression on the mechanics so that completely negates the whole copyrights thing. If copyright was a little bit flexible, entire libraries would get completely wiped out.
It isn't the OGL that holds the OSR together, it's the fact that the various people repackaging the rules found new ways to express the concepts. In the end, copyright isn't about protecting ideas, only how they are expressed. Even subtle changes are enough to avoid entanglements.
Mechanics themselves can be protected by patent but it would be very restricted to a very specific mechanic and would have to be proven to be substantially unique in some manner. An RPG would most likely have 100s of patents to cover the full system. Trademarks can protect elements of a given work, even if they aren't registered. Unregistered trademarks in written works must be a proper noun and must be identifiable as unique but can be a name for just about anything. For instance,
The Force could be protected as an unregistered trademark as it's a proper noun for a concept and it's uniquely identifiable to it's creator and his works.
Edit: This is the opinion of my wife. She has a doctorate in law and works as a legal researcher. This opinion covers this passage only and is academic in nature and should not be construed as legal advice.
Words are reused and the entries are substantially similar.
Quote from: mcbobbo on December 25, 2023, 07:22:19 PM
Words are reused and the entries are substantially similar.
There's a whole litany of things to be considered and if I'm not careful my wife is going to email me an entire doctoral thesis on the matter. What it boils down to is that
similar doesn't mean
the same.
Is it close enough to get litigious over? Depends on the judge. Could Hasbro win the case? Very unlikely unless Renegade really screws the pooch or their lawyers fail to do their job.
There has to be an agreement, or at least a desire to copy the text out of D&D, and I have to assume Hasbro endorsed it.
Otherwise, why not make your mechanics? Why steal these?
Quote from: mcbobbo on December 25, 2023, 07:42:28 PM
There has to be an agreement, or at least a desire to copy the text out of D&D, and I have to assume Hasbro endorsed it.
Otherwise, why not make your mechanics? Why steal these?
Because Altered Carbon was a failure. That system destroyed a game attached to a well known IP and ended any real revenue stream they could have had. It was so bad that I refused to look at Overlight or Essence 20 games.
Borrowing from a functional system with well recognized mechanics makes it easy to port over the audience.
It's worth noting, the system that Altered Carbon used was a bastardized version of Savage Worlds. It would be easy enough to fix it and run it as a Savage Worlds game if a GM was so inclined but as RAW it's broken to the core.
I believe that it's likely that Hasbro and Renegade have an agreement that covers a lot more than we see and allows a lot of flexibility to use Hasbro IP in a lot of ways as long as it doesn't directly compete with any of their in house lines. I think Renegade will steer clear of any fantasy RPGs that take after more traditional tropes and settings. Hasbro has licensed with a multitude of other companies to make toys and branded items using their IPs. Baulders Gate 3 is a good example. Transformers clothes and shoes are another.
To the best of my knowledge, Hasbro are farming the rpg versions of their licenses out to Renegade. It's a very close relationship, with Hasbro calling the shots, perhaps with an eye to formally absorbing them as a games branch.
It seems they wanted a system as close as possible to 5e (to attract D&D players) but didn't want WotC actually making it.
I have PDFs of Power Rangers, GI Joe and Transformers, and I think they're shit. I'm reminded of the early 00's, when everyone was making terrible D20 versions of their systems, and produced goofy shit like lvl 13 investigators fighting lvl 15 Deep Ones.
Every setting uses the same rigid class types, which massively limit choice, and simply have no business representing some of the settings.
Want a Power Ranger that's a smart guy but also great at HtH? Tough luck, smart guys get this ability tree that focuses on some other particular thing. Want to play a Transformer that's a stealth bomber, so they combine stealth and firepower? Tough luck, one or the other, bucko.
The games also have the shitty finger of mild woke wiped across them, plenty of Girlbosses. But the most egregious sin is definitely just being clunky, and using thinly disguised D&D classes to represent things they have trouble supporting.
Vanguard Class:
Clad in the heaviest armor and often with the most destructive weapons, the Vanguard is the quintessential heavy of the G.I. Joe ranks. Relying on their specialized gear to protect themselves and shield their allies as well as the fervor to keep morale high, a Vanguard serves the role of protector, coach, and trusted ally equally.
The top featured Vanguard Joe?
(https://www.lulu-berlu.com/upload/image/gijoe-classified-series-retro-collection---lady-jaye-p-image-473049-grande.jpg)
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 25, 2023, 10:53:39 PM
It seems they wanted a system as close as possible to 5e (to attract D&D players) but didn't want WotC actually making it.
I have to agree. But I wonder why it doesn't say so on the cover or in the credits. It stinks of plagiarism the way they've done it - lazy and wonky and not as good as it might have been were someone to use some actual game design skill on it.
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 25, 2023, 10:53:39 PM
The games also have the shitty finger of mild woke wiped across them, plenty of Girlbosses.
They do speak to this in the 'which Joes did we choose' blob. They say they deliberately picked every female one because there are so few. But AFAIK that was part of the appeal to girls of the day. Their representatives were kicking ass in a man's world, and it wasn't easy to do, nor common.
Quote from: mcbobbo on December 25, 2023, 01:48:31 PM
Thank you, and I did grok all that, but, how is this not plagiarism?
There are word for word lifts of D&D rules. A GI Joe IP license wouldn't confer that.
There's got to be some other agreement in play, right?
because game systems are not subject to copyright. There's no legal mechanism preventing people from making D&D clones. Which is actually happening.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on December 26, 2023, 07:59:17 AM
because game systems are not subject to copyright. There's no legal mechanism preventing people from making D&D clones. Which is actually happening.
Procedures aren't subject. Ideas aren't. The same words you used in the same order probably are. It'd be a finding of fact, for a jury to decide, and just getting in front of one of those will likely set a company back $100,000.
And even if you can 'get away with it' in court, copying someone else's work without attribution has been foul play since first grade.
Quote from: mcbobbo on December 26, 2023, 08:16:20 AM
Procedures aren't subject. Ideas aren't. The same words you used in the same order probably are. It'd be a finding of fact, for a jury to decide, and just getting in front of one of those will likely set a company back $100,000.
And even if you can 'get away with it' in court, copying someone else's work without attribution has been foul play since first grade.
Settled case law for decades. TSR tried with D&D. The originators of Monopoly tried with their game system. Neither succeeded,
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on December 26, 2023, 09:15:38 AM
Settled case law for decades. TSR tried with D&D. The originators of Monopoly tried with their game system. Neither succeeded,
A certain SCOTUS ruling overturned another piece of 'settled law for decades'. The law is fluid.
I'm surprised you missed the discussion around the OGL to the point that you're unaware of the other point of view.
Quote from: mcbobbo on December 26, 2023, 09:31:37 AM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on December 26, 2023, 09:15:38 AM
Settled case law for decades. TSR tried with D&D. The originators of Monopoly tried with their game system. Neither succeeded,
A certain SCOTUS ruling overturned another piece of 'settled law for decades'. The law is fluid.
I'm surprised you missed the discussion around the OGL to the point that you're unaware of the other point of view.
The fact that he (correctly) disagrees with you doesn't make him "unaware" of anything. Rejecting Flat-Earth Theory doesn't mean I'm unaware of the arguments they present. It means I reject those arguments as incorrect, which they are (in both cases).
And people who just argue to argue are a pet peeve of mine.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 26, 2023, 10:03:53 AM
The fact that he (correctly) disagrees with you doesn't make him "unaware" of anything. Rejecting Flat-Earth Theory doesn't mean I'm unaware of the arguments they present. It means I reject those arguments as incorrect, which they are (in both cases).
So the entire OGL controversy is Flat Earth? Everyone but you is wrong and the license was never required? This is a reasonable position to hold?
Quote from: mcbobbo on December 26, 2023, 01:23:34 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 26, 2023, 10:03:53 AM
The fact that he (correctly) disagrees with you doesn't make him "unaware" of anything. Rejecting Flat-Earth Theory doesn't mean I'm unaware of the arguments they present. It means I reject those arguments as incorrect, which they are (in both cases).
So the entire OGL controversy is Flat Earth? Everyone but you is wrong and the license was never required? This is a reasonable position to hold?
Yes.
Not everyone was wrong but a lot of people have been mislead by corporate double speak and law suites settling out of court because hearings are expensive.
Yes.
Quote from: mcbobbo on December 26, 2023, 01:23:34 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 26, 2023, 10:03:53 AM
The fact that he (correctly) disagrees with you doesn't make him "unaware" of anything. Rejecting Flat-Earth Theory doesn't mean I'm unaware of the arguments they present. It means I reject those arguments as incorrect, which they are (in both cases).
So the entire OGL controversy is Flat Earth? Everyone but you is wrong and the license was never required? This is a reasonable position to hold?
Strawman much? Exactly what position are you stating, because I'm simply following case law as it stands...?
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 26, 2023, 01:30:09 PM
Strawman much?
Note how BadApple owned this take. But to you it's a strawman. Neat, isn't it?
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 26, 2023, 01:30:09 PM
Exactly what position are you stating, because I'm simply following case law as it stands...?
My position: Renegade is copying D&D under some kind of agreement because the risk of lawsuit is non-zero.
You could hold that Renegade believes as you do, but you might need evidence of that belief to be convincing, because not everyone holds it.
I don't understand why this is confusing.
First, you can't copyright game mechanics. So you could go clone all the 5e stuff yourself. Just because your favorite creator is busy renaming armor class and magic missile doesn't mean anyone actually needs to do so. Would I recommend that everyone do so? I mean, I'd say, "unless you want to be the test case if Hasbro mismanages their brand, gets into the death throes, and begins hurling lawsuits at random, then yes, make all those legally unnecessary name changes". But if someone just doesn't give a fuck, well, the law is on their side.
Second, these guys are busy making stuff for brands that Hasbro owns. While it's preposterous that they licensed this out to another company instead of their in house RPG company, well, they sure did. This means that Hasbro owns all the rights to their books anyway, and they have some license that both sides are ok with. We don't see that license, but why would you be surprised if a book has, say, the fighter class (which I guess you think is owned by Hasbro) next to all the pictures of Transformers and GI Joes (which are actually and really undeniably owned by Hasbro)?
Whatever the license is, I'm sure it grants a right to use everything in the book, and I'm equally sure that they don't need to make that agreement public, because it doesn't involve anyone but those two parties.
Edit: Also don't all the essence 20 character sheets have a "pronouns" section, even the ones for the fucking robot cars?
Quote from: Venka on December 26, 2023, 06:43:30 PM
Edit: Also don't all the essence 20 character sheets have a "pronouns" section, even the ones for the fucking robot cars?
I can confirm.
They're following the trend of IDW* Comics' Transformers lines for the past 8+ years. That is to say lots of Girlboss robots, and a Trans-Transformer (you read that right.)
*Corrected brain-fart.
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 26, 2023, 08:04:55 PM
I can confirm.
They're following the trend of Image Comics' Transformers lines for the past 8+ years. That is to say lots of Girlboss robots, and a Trans-Transformer (you read that right.)
IDW, not Image. Image only relatively recently got the license.
IDW really let some idiot writers into their company over the last decade,
Also, for the Transformers RPG. I found that the fact that they made all the Roles lack diversity or really represent the actual conditions Cybertronians faced to be a huge disappointment. It was only in the IDW books where Autobots all seemed to come from a privileged class. Which was definitely not how things started in the Generation One source material.
The Decepticon Directive is even worse. All of the various roles are some kind of criminal origin. It lacks even the thin diversity of the Cobra Codex. Making creating interesting diverse characters to be an almost futile exercise.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on December 26, 2023, 08:12:58 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 26, 2023, 08:04:55 PM
I can confirm.
They're following the trend of Image Comics' Transformers lines for the past 8+ years. That is to say lots of Girlboss robots, and a Trans-Transformer (you read that right.)
IDW, not Image. Image only relatively recently got the license.
IDW really let some idiot writers into their company over the last decade,
Also, for the Transformers RPG. I found that the fact that they made all the Roles lack diversity or really represent the actual conditions Cybertronians faced to be a huge disappointment. It was only in the IDW books where Autobots all seemed to come from a privileged class. Which was definitely not how things started in the Generation One source material.
The Decepticon Directive is even worse. All of the various roles are some kind of criminal origin. It lacks even the thin diversity of the Cobra Codex. Making creating interesting diverse characters to be an almost futile exercise.
Thanks, corrected.
We live in the age of deconstruction. All of the heroes are actually the bad, and the bad guys all have backgrounds excusing their behavior. It's all part of tearing everything down, so that Utopia can magically spring from the ruins (totes, honestly guys! Forget all of the past famines and horrors, this time it'll work!")
Regarding the Roles, they're so restrictive! It's like being in a straight-jacket, constantly having to drop ideas because there's no flexibility AT ALL.
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 26, 2023, 09:33:07 PM
Thanks, corrected.
We live in the age of deconstruction. All of the heroes are actually the bad, and the bad guys all have backgrounds excusing their behavior. It's all part of tearing everything down, so that Utopia can magically spring from the ruins (totes, honestly guys! Forget all of the past famines and horrors, this time it'll work!")
Regarding the Roles, they're so restrictive! It's like being in a straight-jacket, constantly having to drop ideas because there's no flexibility AT ALL.
They are worse than the D&D character classes in that regard. And that's a true achievement.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on December 26, 2023, 09:44:13 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 26, 2023, 09:33:07 PM
Thanks, corrected.
We live in the age of deconstruction. All of the heroes are actually the bad, and the bad guys all have backgrounds excusing their behavior. It's all part of tearing everything down, so that Utopia can magically spring from the ruins (totes, honestly guys! Forget all of the past famines and horrors, this time it'll work!")
Regarding the Roles, they're so restrictive! It's like being in a straight-jacket, constantly having to drop ideas because there's no flexibility AT ALL.
They are worse than the D&D character classes in that regard. And that's a true achievement.
D&D at least is DESIGNED around character classes, from the ground up. The Essence20 shit is a 'one clunk to rule them all' system.
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 26, 2023, 09:50:16 PM
D&D at least is DESIGNED around character classes, from the ground up. The Essence20 shit is a 'one clunk to rule them all' system.
The best Essence20 game is G.I. Joe. Power Rangers comes up second. And I haven't touched the My Little Pony abomination. So I don't know where that stands..
I'm not as specialist, but AFAICR the OGL and CC are useful because they allow you to copy-paste, which is plagiarism otherwise.
But copy-paste means copy-paste, not rewirting the smae thing in your own words.
RPG mechanics cannot be protected this way, and AFAICT nor does terms such as Str, Int, Dex, or their specific combination (six scores, 3-18 each, rage x times a day, etc.).
I just remembered a part of the Transformers book that is such a failure, I am ashamed FOR them.
The game has an incredibly low top speed, because their system simply wasn't designed to handle anything beyond humans or land vehicles, and they're too...stupid/lazy for a work around. So here is there official response, in the game book, to people wondering thy their jet-mode is as slow as a car:
"You may wonder why you can't reach the speeds of a fighter jet, even though your Alt Mode resembles one. The fighter jet that Starscream, the most famous Seeker, is modeled after is capable of speeds upward of Mach 2. If your character traveled Mach 2, you could travel more than 2000 5ft squares on a battlefield every turn! Going Mach 2 is impractical in terms of the Transformers Roleplaying Game, but if you want to build one of the fastest possible characters in the game, the Seeker Origin starts you on the right path."
In other words, "we know, but tough shit."
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 26, 2023, 10:04:31 PM
I just remembered a part of the Transformers book that is such a failure, I am ashamed FOR them.
The game has an incredibly low top speed, because their system simply wasn't designed to handle anything beyond humans or land vehicles, and they're too...stupid/lazy for a work around. So here is there official response, in the game book, to people wondering thy their jet-mode is as slow as a car:
"You may wonder why you can't reach the speeds of a fighter jet, even though your Alt Mode resembles one. The fighter jet that Starscream, the most famous Seeker, is modeled after is capable of speeds upward of Mach 2. If your character traveled Mach 2, you could travel more than 2000 5ft squares on a battlefield every turn! Going Mach 2 is impractical in terms of the Transformers Roleplaying Game, but if you want to build one of the fastest possible characters in the game, the Seeker Origin starts you on the right path."
In other words, "we know, but tough shit."
In their defense, that's the approach I take with my own homebrew. Fighter jets zipping around at mach speeds just aren't going to be interacting with a bunch of robots fighting in a city street. They can slow down to strafe or hover, but then they're not flying at mach speeds anymore.
What I found aggravating about the Transformers RPG is how vague they are with equipment. They handwave it away with a Requisition system that's supposed to be a part of the adventure, and then the sample adventure omits the part where characters requision equipment... this includes any extra weapons and armor systems, and that requisition is part of some of the classes. I was like, if they're not going to put in the effort, I'll just use my own system, thanksverymuch.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on December 26, 2023, 09:55:05 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 26, 2023, 09:50:16 PM
D&D at least is DESIGNED around character classes, from the ground up. The Essence20 shit is a 'one clunk to rule them all' system.
The best Essence20 game is G.I. Joe. Power Rangers comes up second. And I haven't touched the My Little Pony abomination. So I don't know where that stands..
The Power Rangers one is the same thing though. I mean, it says Blue Ranger but, if you really look at it, what you are playing is Billy from the first series with a different name. You're a Green Ranger but, really, you're Tommy by another name. You have to fight the system to play anything but OC versions of the characters from the first show.
Quote from: Venka on December 26, 2023, 06:43:30 PMHasbro owns all the rights to their books
Actually I doubt this is true in any sense other than the pragmatic. If for no other reason than taxes I assume WotC and Hasbro are still legally separate entities. Yes Hasbro has control over WotC and can tell them what to do, but they each own their own property, including IP.
Quote from: mcbobbo on December 27, 2023, 10:08:28 AM
If for no other reason than taxes I assume WotC and Hasbro are still legally separate entities.
Maybe, but it's not interesting for these purposes. WotC is a wholly owned subsidiary; if for whatever reason that doesn't allow them to make an agreement with WotC copyright, they'll just add another signatory to the document that represents WotC, or whatever. Hasbro completely owns and controls Wizards of the Coast, and any legal necessity about licensing is just dotting an i for whomever's job that is. Whatever document lets them use GI Joe could either let them use anything that WotC might claim, or at least make them unable to be charged for such use in any additional fashion.
And of course, nothing about that needs be public.
Quote from: Venka on December 27, 2023, 01:39:16 PM
And of course, nothing about that needs be public.
That's what makes the OT difficult. We don't know what agreements WOTC and Renegade studios may have regarding what they can and can't use.
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 26, 2023, 10:04:31 PM
The game has an incredibly low top speed, because their system simply wasn't designed to handle anything beyond humans or land vehicles, and they're too...stupid/lazy for a work around. So here is there official response, in the game book, to people wondering thy their jet-mode is as slow as a car
Forget a car, jet mode is slower than a thin man on a bike IRL.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 26, 2023, 10:10:18 PM
In their defense, that's the approach I take with my own homebrew. Fighter jets zipping around at mach speeds just aren't going to be interacting with a bunch of robots fighting in a city street. They can slow down to strafe or hover, but then they're not flying at mach speeds anymore.
The really fast vehicle modes are not used as part of a stand-and-fight scenario in the media that it's based on, but they really do move that fast. It sounds to me like your homebrew instantiates that, but still has a realistic flight engine handwaved and accessible should it become important (if a high level seeker was 1v1ing starscream over a desert for some reason). We're talking about a game that seems to have no actual rule for this case, and in fact, tells you That's A Good Thing (TM).
Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 27, 2023, 03:45:20 PM
We don't know what agreements WOTC and Renegade studios may have regarding what they can and can't use.
Ok lemme take a step back then, because I have no idea why that matters. Because they don't need to make the agreement public, and because they either own or allegedly own ever single thing, I just don't see why Renegade would even briefly care at all. I don't think I know why it matters- they definitely have an agreement with Hasbro, we definitely can't see it, so why would we assume that it doesn't include whatever licensing they would need to not fear Hasbro's fangs over 5e content?
Edit: Unless the topic is "Renegade printed X, how can another company print X without fear of a baseless lawsuit from Hasbro?", in which case, well, I'd not use Renegade as template because they obviously have a license to use a bunch of other Hasbro things, and we can't see that license.
Quote from: Venka on December 27, 2023, 04:39:42 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 26, 2023, 10:04:31 PM
The game has an incredibly low top speed, because their system simply wasn't designed to handle anything beyond humans or land vehicles, and they're too...stupid/lazy for a work around. So here is there official response, in the game book, to people wondering thy their jet-mode is as slow as a car
Forget a car, jet mode is slower than a thin man on a bike IRL.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 26, 2023, 10:10:18 PM
In their defense, that's the approach I take with my own homebrew. Fighter jets zipping around at mach speeds just aren't going to be interacting with a bunch of robots fighting in a city street. They can slow down to strafe or hover, but then they're not flying at mach speeds anymore.
The really fast vehicle modes are not used as part of a stand-and-fight scenario in the media that it's based on, but they really do move that fast. It sounds to me like your homebrew instantiates that, but still has a realistic flight engine handwaved and accessible should it become important (if a high level seeker was 1v1ing starscream over a desert for some reason). We're talking about a game that seems to have no actual rule for this case, and in fact, tells you That's A Good Thing (TM).
You give me too much credit. :) I just say that jets flying above X speed are in air combat mode, and don't interact with events on the ground. To bomb or strafe, they have to slow down to ground scale movement. Which is still pretty fast. Transformers as a setting has some really wonky interactions. In theory, a character could tranform from a tape cassette deck to an aircraft carrier and interact with things on a tiny scale and things on a huge scale all in one turn. It's a challenge if one wants to make a good system that's fun to play and also encompases all the crazy stuff Transformers characters can do.
To pull away from defending Renegage, jets do interact with ground targets in real life, and they have to have some kind of ruling to handle that, other than
*Shrug*.
Renegade is full of lazy and sloppy game designers. The worst part is that the books themselves have passages that demonstrate that they know they didn't get it right. Altered Carbon has a paragraph explaining that they know the odds of a critical failure increase as the PC skills increase but that's ok because nonsense shitty reasoning.
I bought the Altered Carbon RPG two years ago because I love the concepts and world building and I though a game built around them was a good idea. I paid full price for the hard cover and the PDF. I want my money back. I should never have to fix the core mechanic with homebrew to make the game playable.
The fighter jet rules are just trash and immersion breaking. Their justification for leaving it broken is the same bullshit type justification they've used in other books (including Altered Carbon) for why they left them shitty rather than making them work. They didn't have to come up with good working rules from scratch either. Battletech/Mechwarrior had strafing rules worked out in the 80s and I've seen at least one other RPG (Palladium Robotech I think) handle it well too.
If you get the sense that I'm angry about it, I am. To me, this is a borderline scam. That's why I'm writing reviews. I'm hoping that going through the games I bought and doing my best to represent them honestly, no other fellow gamers have to go through the disappointment of spending their limited disposable income on a game they can't play.
Quote from: BadApple on December 28, 2023, 01:45:56 AM
Renegade is full of lazy and sloppy game designers. The worst part is that the books themselves have passages that demonstrate that they know they didn't get it right. Altered Carbon has a paragraph explaining that they know the odds of a critical failure increase as the PC skills increase but that's ok because nonsense shitty reasoning.
It's so dumb because the super simple house rule fix is to put crits on the d20 instead of the skill dice. (I'm assuming Altered Carbon is the same engine...)
Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 28, 2023, 01:59:14 AM
Quote from: BadApple on December 28, 2023, 01:45:56 AM
Renegade is full of lazy and sloppy game designers. The worst part is that the books themselves have passages that demonstrate that they know they didn't get it right. Altered Carbon has a paragraph explaining that they know the odds of a critical failure increase as the PC skills increase but that's ok because nonsense shitty reasoning.
It's so dumb because the super simple house rule fix is to put crits on the d20 instead of the skill dice. (I'm assuming Altered Carbon is the same engine...)
Altered Carbon is more like Savage Worlds with the order of the dice reversed. They made it a roll under rather than a highest result system. This means that the d4 is the strongest die.
The down side is that the highest value on the die is the failure point and if you roll two or more, it's a critical failure. The odds of a critical failure with the strongest skills (a 2d4 roll or more d4s) results in the odds of a critical failure of 1:16 while the odds at the low end (2d12) is 1:144. It's a bit more complicated than I'm laying out here but that's the gist of it.
Quote from: BadApple on December 28, 2023, 02:12:36 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 28, 2023, 01:59:14 AM
Quote from: BadApple on December 28, 2023, 01:45:56 AM
Renegade is full of lazy and sloppy game designers. The worst part is that the books themselves have passages that demonstrate that they know they didn't get it right. Altered Carbon has a paragraph explaining that they know the odds of a critical failure increase as the PC skills increase but that's ok because nonsense shitty reasoning.
It's so dumb because the super simple house rule fix is to put crits on the d20 instead of the skill dice. (I'm assuming Altered Carbon is the same engine...)
Altered Carbon is more like Savage Worlds with the order of the dice reversed. They made it a roll under rather than a highest result system. This means that the d4 is the strongest die.
The down side is that the highest value on the die is the failure point and if you roll two or more, it's a critical failure. The odds of a critical failure with the strongest skills (a 2d4 roll or more d4s) results in the odds of a critical failure of 1:16 while the odds at the low end (2d12) is 1:144. It's a bit more complicated than I'm laying out here but that's the gist of it.
"We made a system with an inherent flaw, and didn't notice until we were committed, so just kept it. What you should do i...LOOK OVER THERE!" (sound of running feet)
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 28, 2023, 02:28:37 AM
"We made a system with an inherent flaw, and didn't notice until we were committed, so just kept it. What you should do i...LOOK OVER THERE!" (sound of running feet)
That's pretty much how I read it.
If you develop a system that's broken, then I can forgive the attempt. When you knowingly publish a broken system and demand $65 for the book, then you're engaging in fraud IMO.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 27, 2023, 03:45:20 PM
Quote from: Venka on December 27, 2023, 01:39:16 PM
And of course, nothing about that needs be public.
That's what makes the OT difficult. We don't know what agreements WOTC and Renegade studios may have regarding what they can and can't use.
My hope was they mentioned it at some point and someone here knew about it.
As it stands they seem to be trying to pretend that Essence20 is an original game system instead.
Quote from: mcbobbo on December 28, 2023, 08:47:18 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 27, 2023, 03:45:20 PM
Quote from: Venka on December 27, 2023, 01:39:16 PM
And of course, nothing about that needs be public.
That's what makes the OT difficult. We don't know what agreements WOTC and Renegade studios may have regarding what they can and can't use.
My hope was they mentioned it at some point and someone here knew about it.
As it stands they seem to be trying to pretend that Essence20 is an original game system instead.
I grok it as they wanted it to essentially be 5e, to lure in their D&D sheep, but different enough to sell new system books.