Quote from: Darkwind on August 30, 2022, 10:42:12 PM
So I actually registered here simply to talk about Enworld, this is my first post. 

I just slid down the internet rabbit hole and it lead me here via the weird roundabout ways that the internet sometimes does when searching for unrelated things.

So I've popped into Enworld from time to time over the years but only reading a few threads here and there about things completely mechanical in nature or related to the D&D game world. I watched a video today about One D&D which then lead me down the rabbit hole to Enworld which eventually led me farther down the rabbit hole to here.

The top post on Enworld was the one about Spelljammer and the Hadozee as mentioned here. When I read the first few messages related to it I was sure I was reading a piss take and people were being facetious. They were talking about WOTC's 'cultural coordinators' and 'sensitivity readers' and "DEI resources" so I was laughing as I read long. About a dozen messages in with no LOLs or smiley faces and I realized. These fucking people are serious! I just sat in utter amazement. Is this a thing now? Are things really this far gone? Has every single once sane place, hobby, activity, been fully converged by the Hive Mind? I guess I need to read more often but admittedly I hadn't read that forum probably in at least 5-6 years.

Also another top message thread was the one listing the numerous sins of TSR including Drow being racist even though they literally look not at all like African Americans. Their features are quite European and they are literally jet black. This did not stop people from saying they had African features and nappy hair in depictions. I've been playing D&D for decades and have seen much artwork in that time. They have never been depicted as such.

What I quickly concluded reading the dozens and dozens of messages lamenting these two things is that, unsurprisingly, the far left lunatics are the most racist people of all. If you see a literal flying monkey, a dark skinned 'evil' being, or an orc and your first thought is "black people" you are racist AF, full stop. Yet, it was all they could talk about and how any creature even remotely simian in appearance should be avoided at all cost. If that doesn't broadcast your absurd latent racism to the world I simply don't know what does.

Anyhow, nice forum you have here, hopefully the mind virus shall not find a host here as the places where non radical cultists can gather seem to be getting vanishingly small these days.

Darkwind,

Welcome to the Pub. Great post, agree with your take. However, just so you know, there is one module by TSR that depicts Drow as African American: "Queen of the Spiders," published in 1986. The illustrator had no conception of what the Drow were supposed to look like. It looks like an attempt to evoke Tina Turner in "Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome" released in 1985. Sadly the SJWs use that one mistake to "prove" their argument, even though they conveniently ignore every other illustration or description that indicates that Drow have jet black or purple skin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_the_Spiders

Quote from: Darkwind on August 30, 2022, 10:42:12 PM
So I actually registered here simply to talk about Enworld, this is my first post. 

I just slid down the internet rabbit hole and it lead me here via the weird roundabout ways that the internet sometimes does when searching for unrelated things.

"Welcome to the layer cake, son."

If you think ENWorld is the drizzling shits, wait until you see RPGNet!   

Quote from: Aglondir on August 31, 2022, 12:13:28 AM
there is one module by TSR that depicts Drow as African American: "Queen of the Spiders," published in 1986. The illustrator had no conception of what the Drow were supposed to look like. It looks like an attempt to evoke Tina Turner in "Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome" released in 1985. Sadly the SJWs use that one mistake to "prove" their argument, even though they conveniently ignore every other illustration or description that indicates that Drow have jet black or purple skin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_the_Spiders

And yet the drow on that cover look badass, cool and sexy.

Quote from: Aglondir on August 31, 2022, 12:13:28 AM

Quote from: Darkwind on August 30, 2022, 10:42:12 PM
So I actually registered here simply to talk about Enworld, this is my first post. 

I just slid down the internet rabbit hole and it lead me here via the weird roundabout ways that the internet sometimes does when searching for unrelated things.

So I've popped into Enworld from time to time over the years but only reading a few threads here and there about things completely mechanical in nature or related to the D&D game world. I watched a video today about One D&D which then lead me down the rabbit hole to Enworld which eventually led me farther down the rabbit hole to here.

The top post on Enworld was the one about Spelljammer and the Hadozee as mentioned here. When I read the first few messages related to it I was sure I was reading a piss take and people were being facetious. They were talking about WOTC's 'cultural coordinators' and 'sensitivity readers' and "DEI resources" so I was laughing as I read long. About a dozen messages in with no LOLs or smiley faces and I realized. These fucking people are serious! I just sat in utter amazement. Is this a thing now? Are things really this far gone? Has every single once sane place, hobby, activity, been fully converged by the Hive Mind? I guess I need to read more often but admittedly I hadn't read that forum probably in at least 5-6 years.

Also another top message thread was the one listing the numerous sins of TSR including Drow being racist even though they literally look not at all like African Americans. Their features are quite European and they are literally jet black. This did not stop people from saying they had African features and nappy hair in depictions. I've been playing D&D for decades and have seen much artwork in that time. They have never been depicted as such.

What I quickly concluded reading the dozens and dozens of messages lamenting these two things is that, unsurprisingly, the far left lunatics are the most racist people of all. If you see a literal flying monkey, a dark skinned 'evil' being, or an orc and your first thought is "black people" you are racist AF, full stop. Yet, it was all they could talk about and how any creature even remotely simian in appearance should be avoided at all cost. If that doesn't broadcast your absurd latent racism to the world I simply don't know what does.

Anyhow, nice forum you have here, hopefully the mind virus shall not find a host here as the places where non radical cultists can gather seem to be getting vanishingly small these days.

Darkwind,

Welcome to the Pub. Great post, agree with your take. However, just so you know, there is one module by TSR that depicts Drow as African American: "Queen of the Spiders," published in 1986. The illustrator had no conception of what the Drow were supposed to look like. It looks like an attempt to evoke Tina Turner in "Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome" released in 1985. Sadly the SJWs use that one mistake to "prove" their argument, even though they conveniently ignore every other illustration or description that indicates that Drow have jet black or purple skin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_the_Spiders

Greetings!

Aglondir! Yeah, my friend, I have that module in my library. I always thought the art depiction of Drow were awesome.

I also never compared the Drow to "Black African Americans" or Black Africans. I always viewed them as Drow Elves. As someone else mentioned, the Drow tend to have jet black skin, though some variation is expected--like with the art work depiction here. Some Drow have purplish-like skin, and so on. Though their typical features are classically "Elven" and perhaps if anything, European, with the narrow, straight noses, high brows, angular jawlines and the like. Nothing remotely "African" about Drow, other than having some variation of black skin. Even there, though, the commonality is thread-bare, as the Drow are typically other-worldly black, dark, greyish, or purple. Not the earthy, warm variations found within African humans.

All of the whole "Drow are African Americans" is just bullshit from the get-go. It is all a horrible, race-baiting, race-mongering, hate-filled divisive argument--and a form of philosophical attack. Historically, entomologically, and mythologically, these wack-job racist arguments are utter garbage and baseless. *Sigh*

As for the degradation of EN World, well, yeah, Morrus is himself a Euro Leftist, so it makes sense that he supports and embraces terrible, Leftist, SJW ideology. As we have seen with every institution and form of media and medium that SJW's infiltrate, they are like cockroaches. They warm in, and corrupt, pollute, and destroy. Website communities are no exception.

It is sad that EN World has been corrupted. It used to be a fantastic place, where I contributed extensively. I haven't been there in years, as just a few days or weeks of lurking and reading different threads shows that the place has been overrun and infiltrated entirely by shrieking, sobbing, SJW cultists. They, in turn, are protected, celebrated, and coddled by the moderators at EN World, while anyone that is Conservative and traditional in their worldview--and dares to stand against the Leftist hordes--well, the moderators don't seem to be very coddling at all--they treat SJW cultist members far better, while Conservatives are dogpiled, scolded, or threatened, and otherwise shut the fuck down.

I am far too old to tolerate being nanny-handled by some blue-haired SJW moderator that was still in grade school, hanging onto their mommy's skirt when I was jumping out of helicopters and carrying a rifle for my country. I won't be talked down to, or disrespected. I have zero patience for these peoples' arrogance, condescension, and smug sense of self-righteous entitlement. Nope. Not gonna happen, my friend!

So, I haven't gone back. The place has changed, and it certainly is not an atmosphere where someone like me would be welcomed.

Furthermore--all of the Conservative-minded beasts like me have all long since left EN World. Whenever I have popped in over there, say over the last 10 years, I recognize very few people from the old days. Very, very few. Of the few that remain, they are vastly outnumbered by the shrill cries of the SJW hordes. So, yeah, EN World has been dying for years, being eaten alive from within like termites chewing away at the foundations under your house.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

When are things ever going to return to normal?

When will people return to just reading a race or monster entry in a D&D book, think to themselves "hmm that's cool", and then just continue on reading?

When will every fucking picture, word, phrasing, etc, no longer be forensically studied for any trace of racism?

When will these fucking weirdos leave our hobby so things can just be cool and fun again?

Can't we just have space monkeys or Drow or Orcs without some bored white kids on Twitter trying their best to inject racism into the mix?

I fucking HATE this younger generation. They've done nothing but ruin every thing they've tried to 'correct" for "modern" audiences.

Quote from: Monero on August 31, 2022, 08:40:43 AM
A.When are things ever going to return to normal?

B. When will people return to just reading a race or monster entry in a D&D book, think to themselves "hmm that's cool", and then just continue on reading?

C. When will every fucking picture, word, phrasing, etc, no longer be forensically studied for any trace of racism?

D. When will these fucking weirdos leave our hobby so things can just be cool and fun again?

E. Can't we just have space monkeys or Drow or Orcs without some bored white kids on Twitter trying their best to inject racism into the mix?

I fucking HATE this younger generation. They've done nothing but ruin every thing they've tried to 'correct" for "modern" audiences.

A. Never. Make your own "normal" at your gaming table and gatekeep anyone out

B. Once this generation and time passes where people look at the content of a product instead of the color of the characters skin.

C. Never. It's been like this forever only now cranked upto over 9000

d. Never. They are here to stay until they get bored and like locusts move to another hobby to destroy (see comics, movies, tv shows, etc.)

e. We can, we do. Support creators who make those products and don't inject social politics into them.  See Greg Gillespie and Jame Raggi.

To fight the change that is coming one must stand firm on ones beliefs and bend with the wind of change but do not break.  There has been some good that has come out of the recent products with more old school games coming to the forefront and for every 10 shitty modules on Itch.io you find one that bucks the trend and is useful.  Our hobby is far larger than even the 3.x days and with that comes more people who want to be interested in the game.   This is a Good Thing (tm) and can only make our hobby longer lasting and give our playing table full of players who are interested in trying out D&D.

This is a Seller's Market for DM's: state you are able to run a game and you'll get dozens of applicants to play. You need to weed out the social fuckwits from the norms though, that takes Adulting and Respect for people which are 2 things most SJW types lack in personal skills.

Quote from: Monero on August 31, 2022, 08:40:43 AM
When are things ever going to return to normal?

When will people return to just reading a race or monster entry in a D&D book, think to themselves "hmm that's cool", and then just continue on reading?

When will every fucking picture, word, phrasing, etc, no longer be forensically studied for any trace of racism?

When will these fucking weirdos leave our hobby so things can just be cool and fun again?

Can't we just have space monkeys or Drow or Orcs without some bored white kids on Twitter trying their best to inject racism into the mix?

I fucking HATE this younger generation. They've done nothing but ruin every thing they've tried to 'correct" for "modern" audiences.

I can't say I "hate" this younger generation--I mean, my kids are of this generation (and yes, they are very woke).  I think of the kids as being victims more than anything else of the propaganda that they're getting.  By the time they hit their late 20s, many of these kids will probably cringe at Wokeness and how manipulated they were.  (I just hope that not many will permanently damage themselves in the process...sort of like how Boomers mostly straightened up to become productive members of society, but many also screwed themselves over with drugs and STDs).

Without going into the larger cultural issues, I don't think the industry is going to move away from Wokeness until the larger culture moves away from it--and perhaps the industry will lag behind the larger culture.

I mean, let's be honest--people like me who were the first generation of kids raised on D&D and other RPGs (I played my first D&D game in 1974) tended to be "odd".  We were the outcast social group, nerds and geeks, and in the 70s and 80s no self-respecting jock, stomp, cheerleader, or loadie would be caught dead playing RPGs.

A higher percentage of the people that I played with came out as LGBT, and most are fairly leftist (even though some were arch-conservative in many ways during the 70s and 80s as kids).  I'm kind of the exception, in many ways becoming more conservative as I got older.  But the gaming community has been fairly accepting of the "odd" sorts, so I understand why the whole woke agenda finds support in it.  The Woke agenda came in just asking for "acceptance" and "toleration"--but when they got in positions of power (not that there's any kind of rigid power structure in the gaming world, there's still decision makers and publishers), the kid gloves came off.

So I hate to sound pessimistic, but franking, I don't see the GenCons or WotC or Paizo becoming less Woke any time soon.  As the larger culture may retreat some from the current excesses of wokeness, I don't see it happening to them, and the result will be a distancing of the larger culture from RPGs (sort of a return to the 70s and 80s, but with Wokeness instead of run-of-the-mill nerdiness being the "weirdo factor" that turns people off).  So the industry will probably shrink and become more niche than it already is.

But fear not--with the internet and self-publishing, those run-of-the-mill weirdos like us who don't get into Wokeness can still find each other and have fun just playing the damn games...and we'll accept the LGBT or other "Weirdos" if they just want to do the same and leave the woke crap behind.

Any way, that's just my take on it.

I think it is worth mentioning, as I have done so on this board once or twice, that "leftism" and "wokism" aren't the same thing. Right now there's a lot of crossover, as a large percentage of folks on the left are infected with the woke mind virus, but one can be a leftist and not an adherent of wokism.

As for ENW, it isn't nearly as bad as RPGNet, but I'm not sure if that is mostly because it lacks Tangency. The basic ideological stance (wokism) is similar. The moderation is all very biased, but not only against conservatives, but anyone who isn't "woke" - even on the left, or those not identified with left or right. They liberally throw around the "anti-inclusive content" label on very innocuous posts. The irony is that they enact a form of OneTrueWayism, as can be exhibited in that recent thread on the hadonzee...A certain infamous moderator gave the most condescending red text, which basically said "You're not ready to participate in this conversation yet" - just a few posts down from telling someone not to be condescending!

Wokism is a cult and a mind virus. But what i know will get some people's panties in a wad is that it isn't that different from extreme forms of Christian conservativism, or any other insular belief system that only sees the world through its own eyes and wants to convert everyone to their way of thinking. Meaning, "wokism" is just the left's version of the right's wacky religious fundamentalism. They're both cultish and narrow, dead-end ideologies.

Hadozee are racist now? Let me get this straight: they're saying Hadozee are racist solely on the basis that they're space monkey squirrel people and "monkey" is a slur against POC? And Hadozee bards are racist because... monkey bards are now racial coding for old racist minstrel shows (nevermind that the outfit is standard bard wear everywhere else)? And their new backstory is that they're an animal uplift that revolted against their evil creator... which is bad because they escaped slavery (I get that this kind of backstory is overused, but come on)?

That makes about as much sense as saying dwarves are a racist caricature of Irish Jews.

The hadozee aren't being depicted as inherently evil, or subhuman... they're being introduced as a cool new playable race. But they're racist because they very very loosely resemble a patchwork of piecemeal racist propaganda, despite the fact that they're portrayed as people just like everyone else?

Oh for fuck's sake. It's a furry furbait race! You want obvious racial coding? The roaches from TerraFormars are an obvious racist caricature, obviously made by a troll for the lulz, that you would have to be delusional to dismiss. If the hadozee spoke ebonics and were naturally athletic, that would be one thing (just look at the literal list of racial coding ascribed to the Martian roaches for comparison). But the 5e hadozee are described as driven by curiosity to become explorers, navigators, privateers, pirates, etc. Hell, "deck apes" is clearly meant to be an offensive slur and not a positive affirmation.

The claim of racism here is even weaker than the drow's curse of ham backstory. The Hadozee are not similar to racist caricature beyond pareidolia. If you see a character like Son Wukong and think "racist!", then you're obviously trolling for something to be offended by.

Quote from: Mercurius on August 31, 2022, 10:45:02 AM
"leftism" and "wokism" aren't the same thing. Right now there's a lot of crossover, as a large percentage of folks on the left are infected with the woke mind virus, but one can be a leftist and not an adherent of wokism.

Most of the public figures that speak out against the left agree that leftism is wokism. Of course I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but it looks like you are saying the same thing but using different terms to define it.

These days, "left" and "liberal" are usually defined as not being the same thing (even though a liberal is on the left of center). One can be a "liberal" and not adhere to "wokism", which I believe is what you are saying. Being "woke" is what makes a person a "leftist". A person can be liberal (often referred to as 'classic liberal') and not be woke.

A lot of people say "liberal" when referring to the left, but it gives good liberals a bad name. So public speakers usually say left (or far-left) when they talk about the woke progressives.

Here is a funny yet true visual aid that shows how the woke moved so far left that they shifted the center line far enough where classic liberals are now right of center:
https://www.readtangle.com/content/images/2022/08/image-1.png

Quote from: Oryan on August 31, 2022, 12:03:23 PM

Quote from: Mercurius on August 31, 2022, 10:45:02 AM
"leftism" and "wokism" aren't the same thing. Right now there's a lot of crossover, as a large percentage of folks on the left are infected with the woke mind virus, but one can be a leftist and not an adherent of wokism.

Most of the public figures that speak out against the left agree that leftism is wokism. Of course I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but it looks like you are saying the same thing but using different terms to define it.

These days, "left" and "liberal" are usually defined as not being the same thing (even though a liberal is on the left of center). One can be a "liberal" and not adhere to "wokism", which I believe is what you are saying. Being "woke" is what makes a person a "leftist". A person can be liberal (often referred to as 'classic liberal') and not be woke.

A lot of people say "liberal" when referring to the left, but it gives good liberals a bad name. So public speakers usually say left (or far-left) when they talk about the woke progressives.

Here is a funny yet true visual aid that shows how the woke moved so far left that they shifted the center line far enough where classic liberals are now right of center:
https://www.readtangle.com/content/images/2022/08/image-1.png

I hear you but no, that's not what I'm saying - I'm not talking about liberals or classical liberals. I think also who you are referring to as "public figures" are largely conservative pundits. Part of the confusion is that the only people who use the term "woke" in public discourse are almost exclusively right-wing pundits attacking the left - which they tend to group into one monolithic group. I'm talking about people on the left - and not just left of center, but further left (e.g. progressives and anarchists) - who either don't give two shits about wokism or actively critique it.

Meaning, if you don't read or listen to people on the left, I can see how it would seem leftism = wokism. But there are plenty of people on the left that aren't "woke," many of whom keep it quiet due to the power of the "woke mob."


I think the (British) Political Compass illustrates what I'm getting at. There isn't just one axis, left vs right, but also a "vertical" one: authoritarian vs. libertarian. Left and right is economic, yet the other axis has been "flatlanded" into it. One can be on the left in terms of economics and political ideology, yet not "woke" - which is the authoritarian variant of leftism.

Similarly, there's the authoritarian right--which are a combination of religious fundamentalists and MAGA types-- and then there are libertarians and classical liberals, and lots of shades in-between. So in a way, wokism is the left's version of the Tea Party and perhaps MAGA: a virulent mob that has taken over the more traditional stance of the left or right.

Or in other words, there's authoritarian left (wokism, Maoism) and the authoritarian right (religious fundamentalists, Tea Party, MAGA). But then there's a more libertarian left and libertarian right, both of whom oppose wokism - or any kind of censorship or limitation of individual freedoms that don't harm others.

Personally speaking, I think the libertarian left and right needs to get together, because right now that axis (libertarian to authoritarian) is more pressing than the left vs. right. Yet the powers that be don't want that; they want to keep people divided and subjugated, and thus stoke the culture wars, so that the people fight against each other, blaming "the other side," rather than looking to those who are running the ship: the political-corporate establishment.

EDIT/TLDR: There's also the semantic issue. "Leftism" means different things to different people, perhaps especially whether one is more on the left or right. That's my point re: wokism and leftism. While people on the right might conflate them, people on the left don't - because many on the left aren't "wokists" and even actively critique it. But it is a tricky business, because if you're on the left and you critique wokism, you're accused of being on the right, or influenced by right-wing or Russian propaganda, etc etc. So you basically have an extremist ideology that has hijacked the left, but doesn't define its underlying ideologies or characterize the viewpoints of many on the left.

Guys, since this thread is drifting into nonRPG territory and since some of you are pretty new, I'm going to play pretend moderator and remind everyone that political, nonRPG posts are against the rules.  Pundit is really strict about this, and the community is small enough that I'd rather not see more folks kicked off the site.

Quote from: Mishihari on August 31, 2022, 01:16:19 PM
Guys, since this thread is drifting into nonRPG territory and since some of you are pretty new, I'm going to play pretend moderator and remind everyone that political, nonRPG posts are against the rules.  Pundit is really strict about this, and the community is small enough that I'd rather not see more folks kicked off the site.

Fair enough. It is tricky, though, because "ENWorld's Decay" is directly related to political and social stuff...so it is really impossible to talk about it, without touching upon such subjects.

But I will anchor any future comments back to ENW.

And here's a further view: ENW is fine a lot of the time - if you're talking about stuff that isn't political or social. There's lots of knowledge there, mostly long-time D&D players, even now. So if you just want to shoot the shit about D&D, it is a good place to be. But the problem is when anything at all political enters the mix - which is quite frequent, and often by Morrus, who has a huge boner for "NuTSR."

And more to the point: the problem is that you can get political or ideological, as long as you're spouting the party line (like the Hadozee thread). If you stray one iota from what is kosher to believe, even in a questioning manner, in comes the red text.

Meaning, you could say something like "I don't think that's racist, sorry," and be labeled for "anti-inclusive content."

The hadozee bard accusation is so flimsy. Google "bard pose" or whatever and you'll find numerous images of bards in similar poses where they balance on one leg or are shot between moves where one leg is bent and the other is nearly straight.

Here are some examples:
https://www.deviantart.com/pccasio/art/COMM-Ocarina-Bard-838150078
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/610941505677289037/
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/18g6g2
https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/eqexmy/oc_so_excited_to_play_my_first_bard_and_somehow_i/
https://twitter.com/byelacey/status/1433533139951960068
https://images.app.goo.gl/JHd9pviQBCYXLZRL6
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/Yawmyq
https://www.deviantart.com/samsantala/art/Faeraxx-Dragonborn-Bard-727287989

Wokies only started complaining when a monkey squirrel alien did the pose. Probably because they subconsciously associate any depictions of apes/monkeys with POC and are primed to think "Oh no, is this depiction a caricature of POC?"

Minstrel shows were bad because of the blackface and the denigration of black folks. If you look up black southern culture, some of the traditional dress for musicians looks similar: e.g. https://images.app.goo.gl/jMFB7QGUUuGHDCLj8

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 31, 2022, 02:45:37 PM
The hadozee bard accusation is so flimsy. Google "bard pose" or whatever and you'll find numerous images of bards in similar poses where they balance on one leg or are shot between moves where one leg is bent and the other is nearly straight.

These people act like they've never heard of Ian Anderson (OK, they probably think his name is Jethro, but that's irrelevant). Interestingly, his nickname from barding in such pose was "flamingo", not "monkey", ... a very pink animal.