Quote from: 3catcircus on August 26, 2022, 08:47:19 AM
by daring to state that making drow have dark skin and commit evil acts isn't racism against African Americans.

If the wokies are going to redraw orcs as white-skinned to show their contempt for white people, then maybe we should take the moral high ground and set a better example by avoiding that sort of thing?

I get that Gygax wasn't trying to be racist, but the Curse of Ham backstory for drow rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Attention could be taken away from this by giving dark elves a variety of skin tones. Instead of dark skin specifically, they could be "cursed" (or blessed by Lolth?) with so-called fiendish features like tieflings. Such as seen in these concepts for EverQuest dark elves: https://imgur.com/a/4XOpS3C

Quote from: GhostNinja on August 26, 2022, 08:29:36 AM
I thought Enworld was mostly about D&D and all other gamers were an afterthought.  Is this not the case?

Also, is there really even a need for a forum like EnWorld when you have places like this to talk about D&D and all other gamers?

When Enworld started, it has a lot of refugees from rpg.net.  Refugees who had various degrees of understanding what they were fleeing.  Mixed with a lot of people excited for a new form of D&D. 

In a parallel not uncommon in such situations, some refugees come in with some conscious dedication to make a new start in a better place, and some (usually of the mindless, muddled more "liberal" in attitude than any particular thoughts) come in with the idea that they didn't like what they sensed the old country was going to--and then proceeded to enable the exact same thing in the new place.  Those people were for the most part not going to come here, because free speech that they don't agree with is shocking to them, even abhorrent. 

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 09:27:39 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on August 26, 2022, 08:47:19 AM
by daring to state that making drow have dark skin and commit evil acts isn't racism against African Americans.

If the wokies are going to redraw orcs as white-skinned to show their contempt for white people, then maybe we should take the moral high ground and set a better example by avoiding that sort of thing?

I get that Gygax wasn't trying to be racist, but the Curse of Ham backstory for drow rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Attention could be taken away from this by giving dark elves a variety of skin tones. Instead of dark skin specifically, they could be "cursed" (or blessed by Lolth?) with so-called fiendish features like tieflings. Such as seen in these concepts for EverQuest dark elves: https://imgur.com/a/4XOpS3C

You can (of course) do what you want, IMHO giving them an inch is NEVER a good idea.

Some random twat getting offended over something said twat divines on the toughts of others is not my problem.

So, in my games Orks are irredimible evil. Drow are Elves corrupted by Lolth. The first are green with pig noses and the second obsidian black.

And if it rubs some twat the wrong way too bad so sad that's the twats problem not mine.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 10:18:09 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 09:27:39 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on August 26, 2022, 08:47:19 AM
by daring to state that making drow have dark skin and commit evil acts isn't racism against African Americans.

If the wokies are going to redraw orcs as white-skinned to show their contempt for white people, then maybe we should take the moral high ground and set a better example by avoiding that sort of thing?

I get that Gygax wasn't trying to be racist, but the Curse of Ham backstory for drow rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Attention could be taken away from this by giving dark elves a variety of skin tones. Instead of dark skin specifically, they could be "cursed" (or blessed by Lolth?) with so-called fiendish features like tieflings. Such as seen in these concepts for EverQuest dark elves: https://imgur.com/a/4XOpS3C

You can (of course) do what you want, IMHO giving them an inch is NEVER a good idea.

Some random twat getting offended over something said twat divines on the toughts of others is not my problem.

So, in my games Orks are irredimible evil. Drow are Elves corrupted by Lolth. The first are green with pig noses and the second obsidian black.

And if it rubs some twat the wrong way too bad so sad that's the twats problem not mine.

The thing is, these SJWs do the exact same things they criticize others of doing. But it's suddenly okay the moment that the target is coded as white. They treat whiteness as original sin in the same breath they criticize the idea of original sin. It's hypocritical projection.

Anyway, the thing I'm tweaking with drow isn't that they're elves corrupted by Lolth (or demons or whatever other substitute you have to use if you're writing an original setting or 3pp released under OGL). It's how their backstory is just a repackaged version of the Curse of Ham that was historically used to justify slavery.

What's interesting to me is that the 5e tiefling backstory is also a repackaged version of the Curse of Ham, but I don't recall seeing anybody make the comparison and decry it as racist. It's not identical because 1) the tiefling appearance isn't a literal curse but a symbol of their ancestor's pact, 2) it comes in the form of general demonic features rather than black skin, and 3) it's pointed out that most tieflings are innocent of any wrongdoing but suffer racism anyway. But it's clearly the same basic idea: an entire race is given a physical signifier for something evil their ancestors did. This is the case for a lot of races in D&D, such as snakemen.

So my tweak to the drow doesn't change the fundamental idea. It's still a Curse of Ham story, just with a slightly different Mark of Cain. It doesn't remove dark-skinned drow, it just opens the floor to light-skinned drow and non-drow with dark skin.

In any case, there's no connection between racist attitudes and using orcs. At least in a sample that isn't woke. Most players seem to understand intuitively that orcs aren't meant to be caricatures or stand-ins for any real group or teach moral lessons, but a gamist convention where you have a bunch of mooks that you don't need to feel bad for mowing down.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 10:18:09 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 09:27:39 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on August 26, 2022, 08:47:19 AM
by daring to state that making drow have dark skin and commit evil acts isn't racism against African Americans.

If the wokies are going to redraw orcs as white-skinned to show their contempt for white people, then maybe we should take the moral high ground and set a better example by avoiding that sort of thing?

I get that Gygax wasn't trying to be racist, but the Curse of Ham backstory for drow rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Attention could be taken away from this by giving dark elves a variety of skin tones. Instead of dark skin specifically, they could be "cursed" (or blessed by Lolth?) with so-called fiendish features like tieflings. Such as seen in these concepts for EverQuest dark elves: https://imgur.com/a/4XOpS3C

You can (of course) do what you want, IMHO giving them an inch is NEVER a good idea.

Some random twat getting offended over something said twat divines on the toughts of others is not my problem.

So, in my games Orks are irredimible evil. Drow are Elves corrupted by Lolth. The first are green with pig noses and the second obsidian black.

And if it rubs some twat the wrong way too bad so sad that's the twats problem not mine.

Yep.  Never mind the fact that obsidian black drow aren't the same as an african american with light to dark brown skin.  I don't know about you, but I certainly don't see drow with black skin, white hair, and pointy ears and think "black people." Anyone whose thoughts immediately go to equating the two are showing their inner thoughts and should be who is actually considered racist. Not people who don't equate the two.  This is no different than all of the leftists who recently heard "monkeypox" and immediately demanded it be called something else to not offend Africans.  What type of racist thought equates a virus originally found in monkeys with African people?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 11:02:34 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 10:18:09 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 09:27:39 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on August 26, 2022, 08:47:19 AM
by daring to state that making drow have dark skin and commit evil acts isn't racism against African Americans.

If the wokies are going to redraw orcs as white-skinned to show their contempt for white people, then maybe we should take the moral high ground and set a better example by avoiding that sort of thing?

I get that Gygax wasn't trying to be racist, but the Curse of Ham backstory for drow rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Attention could be taken away from this by giving dark elves a variety of skin tones. Instead of dark skin specifically, they could be "cursed" (or blessed by Lolth?) with so-called fiendish features like tieflings. Such as seen in these concepts for EverQuest dark elves: https://imgur.com/a/4XOpS3C

You can (of course) do what you want, IMHO giving them an inch is NEVER a good idea.

Some random twat getting offended over something said twat divines on the toughts of others is not my problem.

So, in my games Orks are irredimible evil. Drow are Elves corrupted by Lolth. The first are green with pig noses and the second obsidian black.

And if it rubs some twat the wrong way too bad so sad that's the twats problem not mine.

The thing is, these SJWs do the exact same things they criticize others of doing. But it's suddenly okay the moment that the target is coded as white. They treat whiteness as original sin in the same breath they criticize the idea of original sin. It's hypocritical projection.

Anyway, the thing I'm tweaking with drow isn't that they're elves corrupted by Lolth (or demons or whatever other substitute you have to use if you're writing an original setting or 3pp released under OGL). It's how their backstory is just a repackaged version of the Curse of Ham that was historically used to justify slavery.

What's interesting to me is that the 5e tiefling backstory is also a repackaged version of the Curse of Ham, but I don't recall seeing anybody make the comparison and decry it as racist. It's not identical because 1) the tiefling appearance isn't a literal curse but a symbol of their ancestor's pact, 2) it comes in the form of general demonic features rather than black skin, and 3) it's pointed out that most tieflings are innocent of any wrongdoing but suffer racism anyway. But it's clearly the same basic idea: an entire race is given a physical signifier for something evil their ancestors did. This is the case for a lot of races in D&D, such as snakemen.

So my tweak to the drow doesn't change the fundamental idea. It's still a Curse of Ham story, just with a slightly different Mark of Cain. It doesn't remove dark-skinned drow, it just opens the floor to light-skinned drow and non-drow with dark skin.

In any case, there's no connection between racist attitudes and using orcs. At least in a sample that isn't woke. Most players seem to understand intuitively that orcs aren't meant to be caricatures or stand-ins for any real group or teach moral lessons, but a gamist convention where you have a bunch of mooks that you don't need to feel bad for mowing down.

If I remember my Bible correctly (and I do) the Curse of Ham never mentions skin color or race. So, a story that MIGHT have been used to justify the submission of the Caananites and that was much later misinterpreted to justify slavery somehow means we can't ever use anything that resembles it?

You know Hitler drank water too right?

Again, each is free to do whatever at their table or when writting their games, IMHO giving them an inch will only serve for increased demands of more terrain. I refuse to cede any terrain on the basis of fallacious "arguments".

If the woke see Drow/Orcs and think black people that's THEIR racism showing.

If the woke see Dwarves/Goblins/Etc and think Jews that's their racism showing.

I'm half tempted to create a totally not Yuan-Ti race and call it the Juanti. They are ALWAYS Evil snake people, the sons of a snake demon. They have moustaches, wear sombreros and their magic requires the use of maracas.

Quote from: 3catcircus on August 26, 2022, 11:03:13 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 10:18:09 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 09:27:39 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on August 26, 2022, 08:47:19 AM
by daring to state that making drow have dark skin and commit evil acts isn't racism against African Americans.

If the wokies are going to redraw orcs as white-skinned to show their contempt for white people, then maybe we should take the moral high ground and set a better example by avoiding that sort of thing?

I get that Gygax wasn't trying to be racist, but the Curse of Ham backstory for drow rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Attention could be taken away from this by giving dark elves a variety of skin tones. Instead of dark skin specifically, they could be "cursed" (or blessed by Lolth?) with so-called fiendish features like tieflings. Such as seen in these concepts for EverQuest dark elves: https://imgur.com/a/4XOpS3C

You can (of course) do what you want, IMHO giving them an inch is NEVER a good idea.

Some random twat getting offended over something said twat divines on the toughts of others is not my problem.

So, in my games Orks are irredimible evil. Drow are Elves corrupted by Lolth. The first are green with pig noses and the second obsidian black.

And if it rubs some twat the wrong way too bad so sad that's the twats problem not mine.

Yep.  Never mind the fact that obsidian black drow aren't the same as an african american with light to dark brown skin.  I don't know about you, but I certainly don't see drow with black skin, white hair, and pointy ears and think "black people." Anyone whose thoughts immediately go to equating the two are showing their inner thoughts and should be who is actually considered racist. Not people who don't equate the two.  This is no different than all of the leftists who recently heard "monkeypox" and immediately demanded it be called something else to not offend Africans.  What type of racist thought equates a virus originally found in monkeys with African people?

The same racists that thought all Harambe memes were depictions of black people.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 10:18:09 AM
You can (of course) do what you want, IMHO giving them an inch is NEVER a good idea.

Some random twat getting offended over something said twat divines on the toughts of others is not my problem.

So, in my games Orks are irredeemable evil. Drow are Elves corrupted by Lolth. The first are green with pig noses and the second obsidian black.

And if it rubs some twat the wrong way too bad so sad that's the twats problem not mine.

Yup, agreed GeekyBugle. Orcs are ugly monstrous humanoids and the drow are midnight black and beautiful and creatures of psychotic nature in my game too.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 11:33:24 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 11:02:34 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 10:18:09 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 09:27:39 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on August 26, 2022, 08:47:19 AM
by daring to state that making drow have dark skin and commit evil acts isn't racism against African Americans.

If the wokies are going to redraw orcs as white-skinned to show their contempt for white people, then maybe we should take the moral high ground and set a better example by avoiding that sort of thing?

I get that Gygax wasn't trying to be racist, but the Curse of Ham backstory for drow rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Attention could be taken away from this by giving dark elves a variety of skin tones. Instead of dark skin specifically, they could be "cursed" (or blessed by Lolth?) with so-called fiendish features like tieflings. Such as seen in these concepts for EverQuest dark elves: https://imgur.com/a/4XOpS3C

You can (of course) do what you want, IMHO giving them an inch is NEVER a good idea.

Some random twat getting offended over something said twat divines on the toughts of others is not my problem.

So, in my games Orks are irredimible evil. Drow are Elves corrupted by Lolth. The first are green with pig noses and the second obsidian black.

And if it rubs some twat the wrong way too bad so sad that's the twats problem not mine.

The thing is, these SJWs do the exact same things they criticize others of doing. But it's suddenly okay the moment that the target is coded as white. They treat whiteness as original sin in the same breath they criticize the idea of original sin. It's hypocritical projection.

Anyway, the thing I'm tweaking with drow isn't that they're elves corrupted by Lolth (or demons or whatever other substitute you have to use if you're writing an original setting or 3pp released under OGL). It's how their backstory is just a repackaged version of the Curse of Ham that was historically used to justify slavery.

What's interesting to me is that the 5e tiefling backstory is also a repackaged version of the Curse of Ham, but I don't recall seeing anybody make the comparison and decry it as racist. It's not identical because 1) the tiefling appearance isn't a literal curse but a symbol of their ancestor's pact, 2) it comes in the form of general demonic features rather than black skin, and 3) it's pointed out that most tieflings are innocent of any wrongdoing but suffer racism anyway. But it's clearly the same basic idea: an entire race is given a physical signifier for something evil their ancestors did. This is the case for a lot of races in D&D, such as snakemen.

So my tweak to the drow doesn't change the fundamental idea. It's still a Curse of Ham story, just with a slightly different Mark of Cain. It doesn't remove dark-skinned drow, it just opens the floor to light-skinned drow and non-drow with dark skin.

In any case, there's no connection between racist attitudes and using orcs. At least in a sample that isn't woke. Most players seem to understand intuitively that orcs aren't meant to be caricatures or stand-ins for any real group or teach moral lessons, but a gamist convention where you have a bunch of mooks that you don't need to feel bad for mowing down.

If I remember my Bible correctly (and I do) the Curse of Ham never mentions skin color or race. So, a story that MIGHT have been used to justify the submission of the Caananites and that was much later misinterpreted to justify slavery somehow means we can't ever use anything that resembles it?

You know Hitler drank water too right?

Again, each is free to do whatever at their table or when writting their games, IMHO giving them an inch will only serve for increased demands of more terrain. I refuse to cede any terrain on the basis of fallacious "arguments".

If the woke see Drow/Orcs and think black people that's THEIR racism showing.

If the woke see Dwarves/Goblins/Etc and think Jews that's their racism showing.

I'm half tempted to create a totally not Yuan-Ti race and call it the Juanti. They are ALWAYS Evil snake people, the sons of a snake demon. They have moustaches, wear sombreros and their magic requires the use of maracas.

If we're complaining about racists making orcs white to show how much they hate white people, then we can't say "oh but it's okay to have drow be literally cursed with dark skin" without being hypocritical. "Oh, but it's okay with drow because they weren't intended to be racist" is not a convincing argument, because you can't always infer intent from art alone.

Like, compare the indie game Spire. The premise is a straight up reversal of the moral dynamics in typical D&D. White elves or "aelfir" are evil and oppressing the poor innocent drow. The point of gameplay is to fight a race war where the drow rise up and slaughter the aelfir to get their freedom. (It case you don't get it despite it bashing you over the head, it's a ham-fisted commentary on real world race relations.) This isn't any kind of improvement: you're still playing a race war, but with the participants reversed. Race war stories where evil demihumans are oppressing good humanoids might have novelty value, but that's all it has going for it. SJWs are just turning D&D into an excuse for the violent revenge fantasy that they want to enact in real life.

If the point of fantasy is escapism, then I want to escape from the race war warmongers in real life.

Also, the white skinned drow image I plugged just looks cool (particularly because it's snow white colored, not any human skin tone). That's pretty much all the justification I need to include something.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 12:49:17 PM

Quote
sniped to reduce the size

If we're complaining about racists making orcs white to show how much they hate white people, then we can't say "oh but it's okay to have drow be literally cursed with dark skin" without being hypocritical. "Oh, but it's okay with drow because they weren't intended to be racist" is not a convincing argument, because you can't always infer intent from art alone.

Like, compare the indie game Spire. The premise is a straight up reversal of the moral dynamics in typical D&D. White elves or "aelfir" are evil and oppressing the poor innocent drow. The point of gameplay is to fight a race war where the drow rise up and slaughter the aelfir to get their freedom. (It case you don't get it despite it bashing you over the head, it's a ham-fisted commentary on real world race relations.) This isn't any kind of improvement: you're still playing a race war, but with the participants reversed. Race war stories where evil demihumans are oppressing good humanoids might have novelty value, but that's all it has going for it. SJWs are just turning D&D into an excuse for the violent revenge fantasy that they want to enact in real life.

If the point of fantasy is escapism, then I want to escape from the race war warmongers in real life.

Also, the white skinned drow image I plugged just looks cool (particularly because it's snow white colored, not any human skin tone). That's pretty much all the justification I need to include something.

I'm not complaining about anyone making Orcs, Drow, etc whatever color they want. I'm saying I won't comply with their demands.

As for pure white Drow I remember saying something like that here a while back, because a subterranean species that lives where there's no sun light doesn't evolve black skin. So go ahead if you think it makes them look cool.

After all I've been known for saying that rule of cool uber everything else (almost).

But MY dark elves don't live underground they live in another world, like the norse myths.

As for pure white evil things IIRC the Hyperboreans in Conan are like that, and they are a decadent evil race.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 12:57:22 PM
I'm not complaining about anyone making Orcs, Drow, etc whatever color they want. I'm saying I won't comply with their demands.

Maybe not you personally, but some of us are complaining:

Quote from: Zelen on August 20, 2022, 04:57:28 PM
They're trying their damndest to make the orcs look White too. It just shows their weird fucking skincolor based morality. Fuck em.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 12:57:22 PMAs for pure white evil things IIRC the Hyperboreans in Conan are like that, and they are a decadent evil race.

Or the Melnibonéans. Elric is a bit like a white-skinned Drizzt.

You know, I think SJWs would have way less ground to stand on if we could trot out some white-skinned evil race in D&D whenever they complained about drow. But I can't recall any evil races in D&D that are prominently called out as white colored. Even though the Hyperboreans/Hyborians and Melnibonéans are prominent examples in pulp fiction, D&D never included a pastiche of them. Feels like a huge missed opportunity to me.

Of course then I feel they'd deflect by claiming it was just an example of the evil albino trope.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 01:30:12 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 12:57:22 PM
I'm not complaining about anyone making Orcs, Drow, etc whatever color they want. I'm saying I won't comply with their demands.

Maybe not you personally, but some of us are complaining:

Quote from: Zelen on August 20, 2022, 04:57:28 PM
They're trying their damndest to make the orcs look White too. It just shows their weird fucking skincolor based morality. Fuck em.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 12:57:22 PMAs for pure white evil things IIRC the Hyperboreans in Conan are like that, and they are a decadent evil race.

Or the Melnibonéans. Elric is a bit like a white-skinned Drizzt.

You know, I think SJWs would have way less ground to stand on if we could trot out some white-skinned evil race in D&D whenever they complained about drow. But I can't recall any evil races in D&D that are prominently called out as white colored. Even though the Hyperboreans/Hyborians and Melnibonéans are prominent examples in pulp fiction, D&D never included a pastiche of them. Feels like a huge missed opportunity to me.

Of course then I feel they'd deflect by claiming it was just an example of the evil albino trope.

Well, it does show their skin color based morality.

IDGAF about their complaints because they will ALWAYS find a way to complaint, as you yourself recognize, for fucks sake they claim Orcs are a representation of black people. We should point at their racism and laugh them off the hobby.

As for using Hyperboreans I'm not sure REH was in the public domain back then, of course you could have called them halflings or something to work around the copyright, same with the Melnibonéans.

But, if anyone wants to change drow or to make a new evil race that's snow white because they think it's cool more power to them.

As long as it is because rule of cool and not because the SJWs complain.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 01:40:22 PM
IDGAF about their complaints because they will ALWAYS find a way to complaint, as you yourself recognize, for fucks sake they claim Orcs are a representation of black people. We should point at their racism and laugh them off the hobby.

Yeah, they're looking for things to complain about and don't care if their complaints actually have merit or not.

QuoteBut, if anyone wants to change drow or to make a new evil race that's snow white because they think it's cool more power to them.

As long as it is because rule of cool and not because the SJWs complain.

Mongoose's Monster Encyclopaedia 2 - Dark Bestiary included evil wood elves, the Dopkalfar. The text outright calls them "negative-image drow". You can tell how much creativity went into their concept, but it fits right in with the typical D&D milieu.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 01:57:06 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 01:40:22 PM
IDGAF about their complaints because they will ALWAYS find a way to complaint, as you yourself recognize, for fucks sake they claim Orcs are a representation of black people. We should point at their racism and laugh them off the hobby.

Yeah, they're looking for things to complain about and don't care if their complaints actually have merit or not.

QuoteBut, if anyone wants to change drow or to make a new evil race that's snow white because they think it's cool more power to them.

As long as it is because rule of cool and not because the SJWs complain.

Mongoose's Monster Encyclopaedia 2 - Dark Bestiary included evil wood elves, the Dopkalfar. The text outright calls them "negative-image drow". You can tell how much creativity went into their concept, but it fits right in with the typical D&D milieu.

Wouldn't a "negative-image drow" be good? As in not evil?

Yeah, gotta love the creativity and the effort put into it.

Hyperboreans (Change the name to fit your world): they live up north in the mountains, are snow white with black hair, they are evil, corrupt and degenerates. They worship some demons, do lots of drugs and commit the worst attrocities, known slavers.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 01:30:12 PM
You know, I think SJWs would have way less ground to stand on if we could trot out some white-skinned evil race in D&D whenever they complained about drow.

They already have no ground to stand on. If you made this evil white race, they would complain that none of this cool new race are black, and that's an example of white supremacism. Don't treat them as though they're having good-faith discussions.

As Kyle Reese might have said:

Quote
The woke are out there. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!

Personally, I think we should get back at them by refusing to indulge in the racism they think should be the only viewpoint in the world. Have fun with RPGs, and learn from Enworld's fate. Don't let a quality site like this go the same way. Sometimes things can only be of use as warnings for the future.