TheRPGSite

Since I used to frequent Enworld in the run up 3rd Ed, the more I see of its decline to wokism the more I am saddened by the loss. Not as bad as RPGNet, but heading squarely in that direction:

https://www.enworld.org/threads/coyote-crow-stories-of-the-free-lands-an-interview-with-connor-alexander.690686/

The comment in the thread by 'doctorhook' is really telling as an example of white guilt virtue signaling. Had to post something here because if I vent my spleen there I would get banned by that twat Morrus and there are genuinely some threads there I am interested in posting to now and again.

Just remember folks, in the words of our friend Connor Alexander, creator of Coyote & Crow - "It's not a perfect world, just a different one. One that lacks colonial trauma."

Rant over.

It's been a slow but steady decay for years now.  It was round about 2014 - 2015 that I gave up on them, as I could see where it was going.  The problem is two-fold:  Morrus wants it this way.  Every time a moderator quits and they replace with a new person, the new moderator is slightly worse than the one replaced.  This is exactly the course that rpg.net took when it first started to go off the rails--slow at first, then only later cascading more rapidly into losing all pretense of fairness to moderation for the non-woke.  In some ways, rpg.net has given Enworld a lot of undeserved cover, on the grounds that it wasn't yet as bad.  With both of them sliding into worse, that's of dubious comfort.

Sorry man, I used to browse those forums during the 3.X days, and they had some good stuff.
Ultimately any place that has been infiltrated by leftists will continue down the path of eliminating those who disagree, until everyone there quakes in fear and repeats the chant of the One True Party.

Coyote and Crow is made by a man who hates whites with a burning passion, and it shows.  A place set up to allow for people to fan his balls while eliminating dissent is exactly what I would expect of a fully infiltrated and weaponized forum.

Disappointing. I still use Enworld from time to time, but I've steadily drifted away from it.

I used to practically live on ENWorld.

Lively discussion topics, lots of free content, and enthusiasm for 3.x products (warts and all). Nary a complaint about OA being raciss or the use of "he" as a generic pronoun in published products being patriarchal.

Three things killed ENW:

1. Being sold to a guy who is just slightly to the right of TBP.  He's just slightly less of a cunt than the TBP mods or Umbran.

2. The move to 4e.  I don't know what it is, but the enthusiasm for generating amazing content (a 3.x treatment of old adventures, free and pay utilities, expansions of canon content, etc.) died in the wake of the GSL.

3. Turning Dragon into an online thing before killing it and Dungeon.

4. The rise of shitty (not even woke, just shitty) RPG content for D&D and Pathfinder.  There was definitely distinct "jump the shark" moments for 3.x, 4e, and 5e, as well as Pathfinder.  Moreso the 4e retread of previous 4e content.

I mean, I look at ENW now, and it's been a lot of nothing but disguised ads, complaints about mechanics with no solutions offered, and whining about wrongthink for a really long time.  No creative content. No utilities, etc. You can only hope that OneD&D results in some decent discussion, but I doubt it

I post on Enworld pretty often and their moderation is reasonable. It is nothing like TBP. You have to be an over the top asshole or violate some pretty simple rules (don't make it political and claim agenda) and you are pretty free to argue your point.

There are plenty of far left people that post there but many are very thin-skinned and immediately spam the ignore button so you never see their posts again.

Your example thread is an interview (which they do for many RPG creators) with pretty softball questions. That is a fairly normal interview there, they are not pretending to be some hard hitting investigative site. Doctorhook is quite correct - in Canada the hottest political issue is the embarrassingly bad way that Native Americans were treated compared to the political fiction that all Canadians are nice. I guess the fact that the major high level youth hockey organization has been covering up rape is the absolute hottest now, but otherwise the point raised is pretty right on. Unless you are into language wars.

So I don't get your complaint and why you had to come here to make it.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter on August 25, 2022, 08:12:12 PM
So I don't get your complaint and why you had to come here to make it.

Some people are so sick and tired of seeing virtue signaling everywhere - ask GeekyBugle1. He's one of my fave people who argue with the knobslobbers on the left, although I fear he'll have an aneurysm one day. ENWorld is a big rpg forum that has been overrun by leftoids. At one time it was decent, but those days are long ago.

Where else can someone vent and get people to talk with? Far as I know this is pretty much it for any discussion of once much better rpg related forums. People used to discuss games on rpg forums, sadly not so much anymore. I'm going to blame tangency, which should be killed by fire, for that.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter on August 25, 2022, 08:12:12 PM
I post on Enworld pretty often and their moderation is reasonable. It is nothing like TBP. You have to be an over the top asshole or violate some pretty simple rules (don't make it political and claim agenda) and you are pretty free to argue your point.

There are plenty of far left people that post there but many are very thin-skinned and immediately spam the ignore button so you never see their posts again.

Your example thread is an interview (which they do for many RPG creators) with pretty softball questions. That is a fairly normal interview there, they are not pretending to be some hard hitting investigative site. Doctorhook is quite correct - in Canada the hottest political issue is the embarrassingly bad way that Native Americans were treated compared to the political fiction that all Canadians are nice. I guess the fact that the major high level youth hockey organization has been covering up rape is the absolute hottest now, but otherwise the point raised is pretty right on. Unless you are into language wars.

So I don't get your complaint and why you had to come here to make it.

That's not true. The reason why I left enworld was because I was participating in a thread in which there was a tangent that explained something that was a phenomenon in game communities and also touched upon political topics. There were at least 4-5 people arguing the "liberal" (in reality, regressive) point in overtly political terms. Morrus himself shut down the discussion and perma-banned one person. Guess who was the one who was banned? It's only gotten worse in terms of who gets moderated and who gets a free pass. Nope, that place is explicitly leftist with a thin veneer of respectability from the past.

This topic makes me sad every time it comes up.  It was a _great_ place to hang out and talk games once upon a time.  I remember the inflection point.  Morrus got into argument with a member about gay rights and definitively lost.  The next day there was a new policy that ENW was to be an "inclusive" site and other opinions were not allowed.  That was the day the rules changed from "no politics" to "no politics that Morrus disagrees with."  At that point I left and never looked back.  I see a lot of familiar names from ENWorld on this site now.

Quote from: Skullking on August 25, 2022, 02:21:50 PM
Just remember folks, in the words of our friend Connor Alexander, creator of Coyote & Crow - "It's not a perfect world, just a different one. One that lacks colonial trauma."

Only "inter-indigenous trauma" then, I suppose.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter on August 25, 2022, 08:12:12 PM
So I don't get your complaint and why you had to come here to make it.

Hi Myrdin Potter.

Please read the other posts on this thread plus the threads on Coyote & Crow and you might get my complaint. Other posters have expressed views like mine but much more eloquently and more thoroughly. For example Venka's comment "Coyote and Crow is made by a man who hates whites with a burning passion, and it shows."

I posted here because I felt like it, and because I thought that the promotion of Coyote & Crow was a 'jump the shark' moment in Enworld's decay that needed highlighting, plus I didn't 'come here', I have been here for a while.

Didn't post it there because, as Hzilong's anecdote makes clear, the likelihood of getting a permaban is exceptionally high there challenging the regressive 'liberal' hivemind and I have had several near run-ins with Morrus already so I'm sure he would happily pull the trigger.

Quote from: Mishihari on August 26, 2022, 03:00:17 AM
That was the day the rules changed from "no politics" to "no politics that Morrus disagrees with."  At that point I left and never looked back.  I see a lot of familiar names from ENWorld on this site now.

Yes, although notably there was indeed a decay, it didn't happen all at once. There was a weird period when (Left) Sex Politics was allowed but (Left) Race politics wasn't. They eventually Converged on a consistent SJW/Woke line, same as RPGnet. Last time I checked their moderation is still different from RPGnet though, typically you get Umbran being a cunt (as mentioned upthread) for some innocuous statement, he makes a snarky comment and gives a thread ban or temporary ban where RPGnet would give a perma-ban. ENW mods also talk a lot less than RPGnet mods about how 'tired' they are from all the bannings - makes me wonder how tired Beria felt in the red room after a hard day executing Polish officers.  ::)

I guess my feeling about ENW is that it gets harder and harder to read, while offering less and less of any value. Basically the same trajectory as RPGnet but 5-8 years behind.

I thought Enworld was mostly about D&D and all other gamers were an afterthought.  Is this not the case?

Also, is there really even a need for a forum like EnWorld when you have places like this to talk about D&D and all other gamers?

Quote from: Hzilong on August 25, 2022, 09:57:01 PM

Quote from: Myrdin Potter on August 25, 2022, 08:12:12 PM
I post on Enworld pretty often and their moderation is reasonable. It is nothing like TBP. You have to be an over the top asshole or violate some pretty simple rules (don't make it political and claim agenda) and you are pretty free to argue your point.

There are plenty of far left people that post there but many are very thin-skinned and immediately spam the ignore button so you never see their posts again.

Your example thread is an interview (which they do for many RPG creators) with pretty softball questions. That is a fairly normal interview there, they are not pretending to be some hard hitting investigative site. Doctorhook is quite correct - in Canada the hottest political issue is the embarrassingly bad way that Native Americans were treated compared to the political fiction that all Canadians are nice. I guess the fact that the major high level youth hockey organization has been covering up rape is the absolute hottest now, but otherwise the point raised is pretty right on. Unless you are into language wars.

So I don't get your complaint and why you had to come here to make it.

That's not true. The reason why I left enworld was because I was participating in a thread in which there was a tangent that explained something that was a phenomenon in game communities and also touched upon political topics. There were at least 4-5 people arguing the "liberal" (in reality, regressive) point in overtly political terms. Morrus himself shut down the discussion and perma-banned one person. Guess who was the one who was banned? It's only gotten worse in terms of who gets moderated and who gets a free pass. Nope, that place is explicitly leftist with a thin veneer of respectability from the past.

You're not correct in your assessment.  They happily label a post with a warning for "Anti-inclusive content" before banning the poster for having the audacity to not conform to their groupthink - for example - by daring to state that making drow have dark skin and commit evil acts isn't racism against African Americans.  Or arguing that regardless of whether or not Zak S is a piece of shit, someone making a claim on the interwebs about being doxxed by Mike Mearls is going to need a burden of proof to be taken seriously - an "I know he did it" isn't evidence.

Being less shitty than TBP doesn't make ENW not shitty.  I sometimes wonder if Eric Noah was prescient in selling and getting the hell out - I'm sure that part of ENWs wokeness is profit-based as much as it is a certain type of Brit being a typical leftist twat.

A couple of things.

I, too, enjoyed the heady days when enworld was Eric Noah, pre-3 release. There was so much creativity. And some of the Story Hours were a thing of beauty (still re-read sep's occasionally). But to me enworld is irrelevant now, just like TBP.

And as far as racistoyte & wokerow is concerned, you're telling me white cherokee, after lamenting his problems that seem to indicate financial issues, is going to shill for a new setting?

Okay, we'll see how that works for them.

Quote from: 3catcircus on August 26, 2022, 08:47:19 AM
by daring to state that making drow have dark skin and commit evil acts isn't racism against African Americans.

If the wokies are going to redraw orcs as white-skinned to show their contempt for white people, then maybe we should take the moral high ground and set a better example by avoiding that sort of thing?

I get that Gygax wasn't trying to be racist, but the Curse of Ham backstory for drow rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Attention could be taken away from this by giving dark elves a variety of skin tones. Instead of dark skin specifically, they could be "cursed" (or blessed by Lolth?) with so-called fiendish features like tieflings. Such as seen in these concepts for EverQuest dark elves: https://imgur.com/a/4XOpS3C

Quote from: GhostNinja on August 26, 2022, 08:29:36 AM
I thought Enworld was mostly about D&D and all other gamers were an afterthought.  Is this not the case?

Also, is there really even a need for a forum like EnWorld when you have places like this to talk about D&D and all other gamers?

When Enworld started, it has a lot of refugees from rpg.net.  Refugees who had various degrees of understanding what they were fleeing.  Mixed with a lot of people excited for a new form of D&D. 

In a parallel not uncommon in such situations, some refugees come in with some conscious dedication to make a new start in a better place, and some (usually of the mindless, muddled more "liberal" in attitude than any particular thoughts) come in with the idea that they didn't like what they sensed the old country was going to--and then proceeded to enable the exact same thing in the new place.  Those people were for the most part not going to come here, because free speech that they don't agree with is shocking to them, even abhorrent. 

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 09:27:39 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on August 26, 2022, 08:47:19 AM
by daring to state that making drow have dark skin and commit evil acts isn't racism against African Americans.

If the wokies are going to redraw orcs as white-skinned to show their contempt for white people, then maybe we should take the moral high ground and set a better example by avoiding that sort of thing?

I get that Gygax wasn't trying to be racist, but the Curse of Ham backstory for drow rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Attention could be taken away from this by giving dark elves a variety of skin tones. Instead of dark skin specifically, they could be "cursed" (or blessed by Lolth?) with so-called fiendish features like tieflings. Such as seen in these concepts for EverQuest dark elves: https://imgur.com/a/4XOpS3C

You can (of course) do what you want, IMHO giving them an inch is NEVER a good idea.

Some random twat getting offended over something said twat divines on the toughts of others is not my problem.

So, in my games Orks are irredimible evil. Drow are Elves corrupted by Lolth. The first are green with pig noses and the second obsidian black.

And if it rubs some twat the wrong way too bad so sad that's the twats problem not mine.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 10:18:09 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 09:27:39 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on August 26, 2022, 08:47:19 AM
by daring to state that making drow have dark skin and commit evil acts isn't racism against African Americans.

If the wokies are going to redraw orcs as white-skinned to show their contempt for white people, then maybe we should take the moral high ground and set a better example by avoiding that sort of thing?

I get that Gygax wasn't trying to be racist, but the Curse of Ham backstory for drow rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Attention could be taken away from this by giving dark elves a variety of skin tones. Instead of dark skin specifically, they could be "cursed" (or blessed by Lolth?) with so-called fiendish features like tieflings. Such as seen in these concepts for EverQuest dark elves: https://imgur.com/a/4XOpS3C

You can (of course) do what you want, IMHO giving them an inch is NEVER a good idea.

Some random twat getting offended over something said twat divines on the toughts of others is not my problem.

So, in my games Orks are irredimible evil. Drow are Elves corrupted by Lolth. The first are green with pig noses and the second obsidian black.

And if it rubs some twat the wrong way too bad so sad that's the twats problem not mine.

The thing is, these SJWs do the exact same things they criticize others of doing. But it's suddenly okay the moment that the target is coded as white. They treat whiteness as original sin in the same breath they criticize the idea of original sin. It's hypocritical projection.

Anyway, the thing I'm tweaking with drow isn't that they're elves corrupted by Lolth (or demons or whatever other substitute you have to use if you're writing an original setting or 3pp released under OGL). It's how their backstory is just a repackaged version of the Curse of Ham that was historically used to justify slavery.

What's interesting to me is that the 5e tiefling backstory is also a repackaged version of the Curse of Ham, but I don't recall seeing anybody make the comparison and decry it as racist. It's not identical because 1) the tiefling appearance isn't a literal curse but a symbol of their ancestor's pact, 2) it comes in the form of general demonic features rather than black skin, and 3) it's pointed out that most tieflings are innocent of any wrongdoing but suffer racism anyway. But it's clearly the same basic idea: an entire race is given a physical signifier for something evil their ancestors did. This is the case for a lot of races in D&D, such as snakemen.

So my tweak to the drow doesn't change the fundamental idea. It's still a Curse of Ham story, just with a slightly different Mark of Cain. It doesn't remove dark-skinned drow, it just opens the floor to light-skinned drow and non-drow with dark skin.

In any case, there's no connection (https://areomagazine.com/2022/02/04/evil-orcs-accusations-of-racism-in-dungeons-and-dragons/) between racist attitudes and using orcs. At least in a sample that isn't woke. Most players seem to understand intuitively that orcs aren't meant to be caricatures or stand-ins for any real group or teach moral lessons, but a gamist convention where you have a bunch of mooks that you don't need to feel bad for mowing down.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 10:18:09 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 09:27:39 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on August 26, 2022, 08:47:19 AM
by daring to state that making drow have dark skin and commit evil acts isn't racism against African Americans.

If the wokies are going to redraw orcs as white-skinned to show their contempt for white people, then maybe we should take the moral high ground and set a better example by avoiding that sort of thing?

I get that Gygax wasn't trying to be racist, but the Curse of Ham backstory for drow rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Attention could be taken away from this by giving dark elves a variety of skin tones. Instead of dark skin specifically, they could be "cursed" (or blessed by Lolth?) with so-called fiendish features like tieflings. Such as seen in these concepts for EverQuest dark elves: https://imgur.com/a/4XOpS3C

You can (of course) do what you want, IMHO giving them an inch is NEVER a good idea.

Some random twat getting offended over something said twat divines on the toughts of others is not my problem.

So, in my games Orks are irredimible evil. Drow are Elves corrupted by Lolth. The first are green with pig noses and the second obsidian black.

And if it rubs some twat the wrong way too bad so sad that's the twats problem not mine.

Yep.  Never mind the fact that obsidian black drow aren't the same as an african american with light to dark brown skin.  I don't know about you, but I certainly don't see drow with black skin, white hair, and pointy ears and think "black people." Anyone whose thoughts immediately go to equating the two are showing their inner thoughts and should be who is actually considered racist. Not people who don't equate the two.  This is no different than all of the leftists who recently heard "monkeypox" and immediately demanded it be called something else to not offend Africans.  What type of racist thought equates a virus originally found in monkeys with African people?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 11:02:34 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 10:18:09 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 09:27:39 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on August 26, 2022, 08:47:19 AM
by daring to state that making drow have dark skin and commit evil acts isn't racism against African Americans.

If the wokies are going to redraw orcs as white-skinned to show their contempt for white people, then maybe we should take the moral high ground and set a better example by avoiding that sort of thing?

I get that Gygax wasn't trying to be racist, but the Curse of Ham backstory for drow rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Attention could be taken away from this by giving dark elves a variety of skin tones. Instead of dark skin specifically, they could be "cursed" (or blessed by Lolth?) with so-called fiendish features like tieflings. Such as seen in these concepts for EverQuest dark elves: https://imgur.com/a/4XOpS3C

You can (of course) do what you want, IMHO giving them an inch is NEVER a good idea.

Some random twat getting offended over something said twat divines on the toughts of others is not my problem.

So, in my games Orks are irredimible evil. Drow are Elves corrupted by Lolth. The first are green with pig noses and the second obsidian black.

And if it rubs some twat the wrong way too bad so sad that's the twats problem not mine.

The thing is, these SJWs do the exact same things they criticize others of doing. But it's suddenly okay the moment that the target is coded as white. They treat whiteness as original sin in the same breath they criticize the idea of original sin. It's hypocritical projection.

Anyway, the thing I'm tweaking with drow isn't that they're elves corrupted by Lolth (or demons or whatever other substitute you have to use if you're writing an original setting or 3pp released under OGL). It's how their backstory is just a repackaged version of the Curse of Ham that was historically used to justify slavery.

What's interesting to me is that the 5e tiefling backstory is also a repackaged version of the Curse of Ham, but I don't recall seeing anybody make the comparison and decry it as racist. It's not identical because 1) the tiefling appearance isn't a literal curse but a symbol of their ancestor's pact, 2) it comes in the form of general demonic features rather than black skin, and 3) it's pointed out that most tieflings are innocent of any wrongdoing but suffer racism anyway. But it's clearly the same basic idea: an entire race is given a physical signifier for something evil their ancestors did. This is the case for a lot of races in D&D, such as snakemen.

So my tweak to the drow doesn't change the fundamental idea. It's still a Curse of Ham story, just with a slightly different Mark of Cain. It doesn't remove dark-skinned drow, it just opens the floor to light-skinned drow and non-drow with dark skin.

In any case, there's no connection (https://areomagazine.com/2022/02/04/evil-orcs-accusations-of-racism-in-dungeons-and-dragons/) between racist attitudes and using orcs. At least in a sample that isn't woke. Most players seem to understand intuitively that orcs aren't meant to be caricatures or stand-ins for any real group or teach moral lessons, but a gamist convention where you have a bunch of mooks that you don't need to feel bad for mowing down.

If I remember my Bible correctly (and I do) the Curse of Ham never mentions skin color or race. So, a story that MIGHT have been used to justify the submission of the Caananites and that was much later misinterpreted to justify slavery somehow means we can't ever use anything that resembles it?

You know Hitler drank water too right?

Again, each is free to do whatever at their table or when writting their games, IMHO giving them an inch will only serve for increased demands of more terrain. I refuse to cede any terrain on the basis of fallacious "arguments".

If the woke see Drow/Orcs and think black people that's THEIR racism showing.

If the woke see Dwarves/Goblins/Etc and think Jews that's their racism showing.

I'm half tempted to create a totally not Yuan-Ti race and call it the Juanti. They are ALWAYS Evil snake people, the sons of a snake demon. They have moustaches, wear sombreros and their magic requires the use of maracas.

Quote from: 3catcircus on August 26, 2022, 11:03:13 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 10:18:09 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 09:27:39 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on August 26, 2022, 08:47:19 AM
by daring to state that making drow have dark skin and commit evil acts isn't racism against African Americans.

If the wokies are going to redraw orcs as white-skinned to show their contempt for white people, then maybe we should take the moral high ground and set a better example by avoiding that sort of thing?

I get that Gygax wasn't trying to be racist, but the Curse of Ham backstory for drow rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Attention could be taken away from this by giving dark elves a variety of skin tones. Instead of dark skin specifically, they could be "cursed" (or blessed by Lolth?) with so-called fiendish features like tieflings. Such as seen in these concepts for EverQuest dark elves: https://imgur.com/a/4XOpS3C

You can (of course) do what you want, IMHO giving them an inch is NEVER a good idea.

Some random twat getting offended over something said twat divines on the toughts of others is not my problem.

So, in my games Orks are irredimible evil. Drow are Elves corrupted by Lolth. The first are green with pig noses and the second obsidian black.

And if it rubs some twat the wrong way too bad so sad that's the twats problem not mine.

Yep.  Never mind the fact that obsidian black drow aren't the same as an african american with light to dark brown skin.  I don't know about you, but I certainly don't see drow with black skin, white hair, and pointy ears and think "black people." Anyone whose thoughts immediately go to equating the two are showing their inner thoughts and should be who is actually considered racist. Not people who don't equate the two.  This is no different than all of the leftists who recently heard "monkeypox" and immediately demanded it be called something else to not offend Africans.  What type of racist thought equates a virus originally found in monkeys with African people?

The same racists that thought all Harambe memes were depictions of black people.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 10:18:09 AM
You can (of course) do what you want, IMHO giving them an inch is NEVER a good idea.

Some random twat getting offended over something said twat divines on the toughts of others is not my problem.

So, in my games Orks are irredeemable evil. Drow are Elves corrupted by Lolth. The first are green with pig noses and the second obsidian black.

And if it rubs some twat the wrong way too bad so sad that's the twats problem not mine.

Yup, agreed GeekyBugle. Orcs are ugly monstrous humanoids and the drow are midnight black and beautiful and creatures of psychotic nature in my game too.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 11:33:24 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 11:02:34 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 10:18:09 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 09:27:39 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on August 26, 2022, 08:47:19 AM
by daring to state that making drow have dark skin and commit evil acts isn't racism against African Americans.

If the wokies are going to redraw orcs as white-skinned to show their contempt for white people, then maybe we should take the moral high ground and set a better example by avoiding that sort of thing?

I get that Gygax wasn't trying to be racist, but the Curse of Ham backstory for drow rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Attention could be taken away from this by giving dark elves a variety of skin tones. Instead of dark skin specifically, they could be "cursed" (or blessed by Lolth?) with so-called fiendish features like tieflings. Such as seen in these concepts for EverQuest dark elves: https://imgur.com/a/4XOpS3C

You can (of course) do what you want, IMHO giving them an inch is NEVER a good idea.

Some random twat getting offended over something said twat divines on the toughts of others is not my problem.

So, in my games Orks are irredimible evil. Drow are Elves corrupted by Lolth. The first are green with pig noses and the second obsidian black.

And if it rubs some twat the wrong way too bad so sad that's the twats problem not mine.

The thing is, these SJWs do the exact same things they criticize others of doing. But it's suddenly okay the moment that the target is coded as white. They treat whiteness as original sin in the same breath they criticize the idea of original sin. It's hypocritical projection.

Anyway, the thing I'm tweaking with drow isn't that they're elves corrupted by Lolth (or demons or whatever other substitute you have to use if you're writing an original setting or 3pp released under OGL). It's how their backstory is just a repackaged version of the Curse of Ham that was historically used to justify slavery.

What's interesting to me is that the 5e tiefling backstory is also a repackaged version of the Curse of Ham, but I don't recall seeing anybody make the comparison and decry it as racist. It's not identical because 1) the tiefling appearance isn't a literal curse but a symbol of their ancestor's pact, 2) it comes in the form of general demonic features rather than black skin, and 3) it's pointed out that most tieflings are innocent of any wrongdoing but suffer racism anyway. But it's clearly the same basic idea: an entire race is given a physical signifier for something evil their ancestors did. This is the case for a lot of races in D&D, such as snakemen.

So my tweak to the drow doesn't change the fundamental idea. It's still a Curse of Ham story, just with a slightly different Mark of Cain. It doesn't remove dark-skinned drow, it just opens the floor to light-skinned drow and non-drow with dark skin.

In any case, there's no connection (https://areomagazine.com/2022/02/04/evil-orcs-accusations-of-racism-in-dungeons-and-dragons/) between racist attitudes and using orcs. At least in a sample that isn't woke. Most players seem to understand intuitively that orcs aren't meant to be caricatures or stand-ins for any real group or teach moral lessons, but a gamist convention where you have a bunch of mooks that you don't need to feel bad for mowing down.

If I remember my Bible correctly (and I do) the Curse of Ham never mentions skin color or race. So, a story that MIGHT have been used to justify the submission of the Caananites and that was much later misinterpreted to justify slavery somehow means we can't ever use anything that resembles it?

You know Hitler drank water too right?

Again, each is free to do whatever at their table or when writting their games, IMHO giving them an inch will only serve for increased demands of more terrain. I refuse to cede any terrain on the basis of fallacious "arguments".

If the woke see Drow/Orcs and think black people that's THEIR racism showing.

If the woke see Dwarves/Goblins/Etc and think Jews that's their racism showing.

I'm half tempted to create a totally not Yuan-Ti race and call it the Juanti. They are ALWAYS Evil snake people, the sons of a snake demon. They have moustaches, wear sombreros and their magic requires the use of maracas.

If we're complaining about racists making orcs white to show how much they hate white people, then we can't say "oh but it's okay to have drow be literally cursed with dark skin" without being hypocritical. "Oh, but it's okay with drow because they weren't intended to be racist" is not a convincing argument, because you can't always infer intent from art alone.

Like, compare the indie game Spire (https://medium.com/theuglymonster/dark-elves-are-not-terrorists-spire-the-city-must-fall-5ad16b2d7c7d). The premise is a straight up reversal of the moral dynamics in typical D&D. White elves or "aelfir" are evil and oppressing the poor innocent drow. The point of gameplay is to fight a race war where the drow rise up and slaughter the aelfir to get their freedom. (It case you don't get it despite it bashing you over the head, it's a ham-fisted commentary on real world race relations.) This isn't any kind of improvement: you're still playing a race war, but with the participants reversed. Race war stories where evil demihumans are oppressing good humanoids might have novelty value, but that's all it has going for it. SJWs are just turning D&D into an excuse for the violent revenge fantasy that they want to enact in real life.

If the point of fantasy is escapism, then I want to escape from the race war warmongers in real life.

Also, the white skinned drow image I plugged just looks cool (particularly because it's snow white colored, not any human skin tone). That's pretty much all the justification I need to include something.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 12:49:17 PM

Quote
sniped to reduce the size

If we're complaining about racists making orcs white to show how much they hate white people, then we can't say "oh but it's okay to have drow be literally cursed with dark skin" without being hypocritical. "Oh, but it's okay with drow because they weren't intended to be racist" is not a convincing argument, because you can't always infer intent from art alone.

Like, compare the indie game Spire (https://medium.com/theuglymonster/dark-elves-are-not-terrorists-spire-the-city-must-fall-5ad16b2d7c7d). The premise is a straight up reversal of the moral dynamics in typical D&D. White elves or "aelfir" are evil and oppressing the poor innocent drow. The point of gameplay is to fight a race war where the drow rise up and slaughter the aelfir to get their freedom. (It case you don't get it despite it bashing you over the head, it's a ham-fisted commentary on real world race relations.) This isn't any kind of improvement: you're still playing a race war, but with the participants reversed. Race war stories where evil demihumans are oppressing good humanoids might have novelty value, but that's all it has going for it. SJWs are just turning D&D into an excuse for the violent revenge fantasy that they want to enact in real life.

If the point of fantasy is escapism, then I want to escape from the race war warmongers in real life.

Also, the white skinned drow image I plugged just looks cool (particularly because it's snow white colored, not any human skin tone). That's pretty much all the justification I need to include something.

I'm not complaining about anyone making Orcs, Drow, etc whatever color they want. I'm saying I won't comply with their demands.

As for pure white Drow I remember saying something like that here a while back, because a subterranean species that lives where there's no sun light doesn't evolve black skin. So go ahead if you think it makes them look cool.

After all I've been known for saying that rule of cool uber everything else (almost).

But MY dark elves don't live underground they live in another world, like the norse myths.

As for pure white evil things IIRC the Hyperboreans in Conan are like that, and they are a decadent evil race.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 12:57:22 PM
I'm not complaining about anyone making Orcs, Drow, etc whatever color they want. I'm saying I won't comply with their demands.

Maybe not you personally, but some of us are complaining:

Quote from: Zelen on August 20, 2022, 04:57:28 PM
They're trying their damndest to make the orcs look White too. It just shows their weird fucking skincolor based morality. Fuck em.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 12:57:22 PMAs for pure white evil things IIRC the Hyperboreans in Conan are like that, and they are a decadent evil race.

Or the Melnibonéans. Elric is a bit like a white-skinned Drizzt.

You know, I think SJWs would have way less ground to stand on if we could trot out some white-skinned evil race in D&D whenever they complained about drow. But I can't recall any evil races in D&D that are prominently called out as white colored. Even though the Hyperboreans/Hyborians and Melnibonéans are prominent examples in pulp fiction, D&D never included a pastiche of them. Feels like a huge missed opportunity to me.

Of course then I feel they'd deflect by claiming (https://mythcreants.com/blog/what-makes-an-antagonistic-group-problematic/) it was just an example of the evil albino trope.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 01:30:12 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 12:57:22 PM
I'm not complaining about anyone making Orcs, Drow, etc whatever color they want. I'm saying I won't comply with their demands.

Maybe not you personally, but some of us are complaining:

Quote from: Zelen on August 20, 2022, 04:57:28 PM
They're trying their damndest to make the orcs look White too. It just shows their weird fucking skincolor based morality. Fuck em.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 12:57:22 PMAs for pure white evil things IIRC the Hyperboreans in Conan are like that, and they are a decadent evil race.

Or the Melnibonéans. Elric is a bit like a white-skinned Drizzt.

You know, I think SJWs would have way less ground to stand on if we could trot out some white-skinned evil race in D&D whenever they complained about drow. But I can't recall any evil races in D&D that are prominently called out as white colored. Even though the Hyperboreans/Hyborians and Melnibonéans are prominent examples in pulp fiction, D&D never included a pastiche of them. Feels like a huge missed opportunity to me.

Of course then I feel they'd deflect by claiming (https://mythcreants.com/blog/what-makes-an-antagonistic-group-problematic/) it was just an example of the evil albino trope.

Well, it does show their skin color based morality.

IDGAF about their complaints because they will ALWAYS find a way to complaint, as you yourself recognize, for fucks sake they claim Orcs are a representation of black people. We should point at their racism and laugh them off the hobby.

As for using Hyperboreans I'm not sure REH was in the public domain back then, of course you could have called them halflings or something to work around the copyright, same with the Melnibonéans.

But, if anyone wants to change drow or to make a new evil race that's snow white because they think it's cool more power to them.

As long as it is because rule of cool and not because the SJWs complain.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 01:40:22 PM
IDGAF about their complaints because they will ALWAYS find a way to complaint, as you yourself recognize, for fucks sake they claim Orcs are a representation of black people. We should point at their racism and laugh them off the hobby.

Yeah, they're looking for things to complain about and don't care if their complaints actually have merit or not.

QuoteBut, if anyone wants to change drow or to make a new evil race that's snow white because they think it's cool more power to them.

As long as it is because rule of cool and not because the SJWs complain.

Mongoose's Monster Encyclopaedia 2 - Dark Bestiary (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/2248/Monster-Encyclopaedia-2--Dark-Bestiary) included evil wood elves, the Dopkalfar. The text outright calls them "negative-image drow". You can tell how much creativity went into their concept, but it fits right in with the typical D&D milieu.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 01:57:06 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 01:40:22 PM
IDGAF about their complaints because they will ALWAYS find a way to complaint, as you yourself recognize, for fucks sake they claim Orcs are a representation of black people. We should point at their racism and laugh them off the hobby.

Yeah, they're looking for things to complain about and don't care if their complaints actually have merit or not.

QuoteBut, if anyone wants to change drow or to make a new evil race that's snow white because they think it's cool more power to them.

As long as it is because rule of cool and not because the SJWs complain.

Mongoose's Monster Encyclopaedia 2 - Dark Bestiary (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/2248/Monster-Encyclopaedia-2--Dark-Bestiary) included evil wood elves, the Dopkalfar. The text outright calls them "negative-image drow". You can tell how much creativity went into their concept, but it fits right in with the typical D&D milieu.

Wouldn't a "negative-image drow" be good? As in not evil?

Yeah, gotta love the creativity and the effort put into it.

Hyperboreans (Change the name to fit your world): they live up north in the mountains, are snow white with black hair, they are evil, corrupt and degenerates. They worship some demons, do lots of drugs and commit the worst attrocities, known slavers.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 01:30:12 PM
You know, I think SJWs would have way less ground to stand on if we could trot out some white-skinned evil race in D&D whenever they complained about drow.

They already have no ground to stand on. If you made this evil white race, they would complain that none of this cool new race are black, and that's an example of white supremacism. Don't treat them as though they're having good-faith discussions.

As Kyle Reese might have said:

Quote
The woke are out there. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!

Personally, I think we should get back at them by refusing to indulge in the racism they think should be the only viewpoint in the world. Have fun with RPGs, and learn from Enworld's fate. Don't let a quality site like this go the same way. Sometimes things can only be of use as warnings for the future.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 02:01:43 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 01:57:06 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 01:40:22 PM
IDGAF about their complaints because they will ALWAYS find a way to complaint, as you yourself recognize, for fucks sake they claim Orcs are a representation of black people. We should point at their racism and laugh them off the hobby.

Yeah, they're looking for things to complain about and don't care if their complaints actually have merit or not.

QuoteBut, if anyone wants to change drow or to make a new evil race that's snow white because they think it's cool more power to them.

As long as it is because rule of cool and not because the SJWs complain.

Mongoose's Monster Encyclopaedia 2 - Dark Bestiary (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/2248/Monster-Encyclopaedia-2--Dark-Bestiary) included evil wood elves, the Dopkalfar. The text outright calls them "negative-image drow". You can tell how much creativity went into their concept, but it fits right in with the typical D&D milieu.

Wouldn't a "negative-image drow" be good? As in not evil?

Yeah, gotta love the creativity and the effort put into it.

Hyperboreans (Change the name to fit your world): they live up north in the mountains, are snow white with black hair, they are evil, corrupt and degenerates. They worship some demons, do lots of drugs and commit the worst attrocities, known slavers.

No, it was just a visual description. They had snow white skin and ebony hair. Like Snow White, but evil Snow White

Quote from: Krazz on August 26, 2022, 02:04:26 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 01:30:12 PM
You know, I think SJWs would have way less ground to stand on if we could trot out some white-skinned evil race in D&D whenever they complained about drow.

They already have no ground to stand on. If you made this evil white race, they would complain that none of this cool new race are black, and that's an example of white supremacism. Don't treat them as though they're having good-faith discussions.

As Kyle Reese might have said:

Quote
The woke are out there. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!

Personally, I think we should get back at them by refusing to indulge in the racism they think should be the only viewpoint in the world. Have fun with RPGs, and learn from Enworld's fate. Don't let a quality site like this go the same way. Sometimes things can only be of use as warnings for the future.

This is an excellent post. Ignore the Race Warriors. Laugh at them. They hate laughter.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 01:40:22 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 01:30:12 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 12:57:22 PM
I'm not complaining about anyone making Orcs, Drow, etc whatever color they want. I'm saying I won't comply with their demands.

Maybe not you personally, but some of us are complaining:

Quote from: Zelen on August 20, 2022, 04:57:28 PM
They're trying their damndest to make the orcs look White too. It just shows their weird fucking skincolor based morality. Fuck em.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 26, 2022, 12:57:22 PMAs for pure white evil things IIRC the Hyperboreans in Conan are like that, and they are a decadent evil race.

Or the Melnibonéans. Elric is a bit like a white-skinned Drizzt.

You know, I think SJWs would have way less ground to stand on if we could trot out some white-skinned evil race in D&D whenever they complained about drow. But I can't recall any evil races in D&D that are prominently called out as white colored. Even though the Hyperboreans/Hyborians and Melnibonéans are prominent examples in pulp fiction, D&D never included a pastiche of them. Feels like a huge missed opportunity to me.

Of course then I feel they'd deflect by claiming (https://mythcreants.com/blog/what-makes-an-antagonistic-group-problematic/) it was just an example of the evil albino trope.

Well, it does show their skin color based morality.

IDGAF about their complaints because they will ALWAYS find a way to complaint, as you yourself recognize, for fucks sake they claim Orcs are a representation of black people. We should point at their racism and laugh them off the hobby.

As for using Hyperboreans I'm not sure REH was in the public domain back then, of course you could have called them halflings or something to work around the copyright, same with the Melnibonéans.

But, if anyone wants to change drow or to make a new evil race that's snow white because they think it's cool more power to them.

As long as it is because rule of cool and not because the SJWs complain.

Melnibonéans were pretty much elves. Dark and twisted ones, mind you. I got that thinking from Corum being a Vadhagh and his people were akin to Melnibonéans. Somewhere there's mention of them (Elric and Corum) being a similar race. And with Corum being called an elf in the second Corum trilogy it just makes sense.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 26, 2022, 09:27:39 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on August 26, 2022, 08:47:19 AM
by daring to state that making drow have dark skin and commit evil acts isn't racism against African Americans.

If the wokies are going to redraw orcs as white-skinned to show their contempt for white people, then maybe we should take the moral high ground and set a better example by avoiding that sort of thing?

I get that Gygax wasn't trying to be racist, but the Curse of Ham backstory for drow rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Attention could be taken away from this by giving dark elves a variety of skin tones. Instead of dark skin specifically, they could be "cursed" (or blessed by Lolth?) with so-called fiendish features like tieflings. Such as seen in these concepts for EverQuest dark elves: https://imgur.com/a/4XOpS3C

Taking the moral high ground has never worked ever. The real answer is to gatekeep harder.

ENWorld remains a universe better than TBP. It's not even close. The moderation is so, so, SO much more reasonable.

Quote from: Mistwell on August 26, 2022, 09:49:50 PM
ENWorld remains a universe better than TBP. It's not even close. The moderation is so, so, SO much more reasonable.

Better than TBP is not exactly a difficult standard to meet.

Quote from: Mistwell on August 26, 2022, 09:49:50 PM
ENWorld remains a universe better than TBP. It's not even close. The moderation is so, so, SO much more reasonable.

This is true, while at the same time it's equally true that ENW has notably poor moderation. The best moderation I know is probably on Dragonsfoot - Steve is a saint!  ;D

Quote from: Hzilong on August 26, 2022, 11:32:27 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on August 26, 2022, 09:49:50 PM
ENWorld remains a universe better than TBP. It's not even close. The moderation is so, so, SO much more reasonable.

Better than TBP is not exactly a difficult standard to meet.

Well that was sort of my point. It's actually quite hard to get banned from ENWorld. You can get kicked out of a thread and warned and temp banned, but an actual perma-ban is very uncommon and only for genuine extreme stuff.

Quote from: Mistwell on August 27, 2022, 10:37:58 AM

Quote from: Hzilong on August 26, 2022, 11:32:27 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on August 26, 2022, 09:49:50 PM
ENWorld remains a universe better than TBP. It's not even close. The moderation is so, so, SO much more reasonable.

Better than TBP is not exactly a difficult standard to meet.

Well that was sort of my point. It's actually quite hard to get banned from ENWorld. You can get kicked out of a thread and warned and temp banned, but an actual perma-ban is very uncommon and only for genuine extreme stuff.

What does it matter if they don't permanently ban you when they'll threadban or suspend you for any differing opinions from the groupthink?

Quote from: Hzilong on August 26, 2022, 11:32:27 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on August 26, 2022, 09:49:50 PM
ENWorld remains a universe better than TBP. It's not even close. The moderation is so, so, SO much more reasonable.

Better than TBP is not exactly a difficult standard to meet.

Agreed. Also, being a 'universe better' is not relevant to whether or not ENWorld has decayed. In fact, OP already stated it was not as bad as TBP.

Moderation and anti-member behavior has increased over the years, and in my mind that is an environment in decay. ENWorld is a cesspool with an agenda.

As long as the money keeps coming in Morrus will let the site do whatever it will. Once his revenue stream is "threatened" will he take action.  The mods aren't as bad as TBP but they are a far cry worse than on the old NKL/CM boards.

As soon as the woke mobs attack Morrus for being a "rich white male of privilage" he will boot them the fuck off the site and barricade the door behind them.

I recently started watching a bunch of RPGPundit's youtube videos which brought me here. So I registered just to post in this thread.  ;D
It's nice to see some ENworld users I remember from back in the day! It's refreshing to see I'm not alone in my assessment of the RPG community and ENworld specifically.

I finally left ENworld around 2014 or so. Couldn't stand the moderation, and the influx of SJW posts made it unbearable. I can't imagine how bad it is these days.

I was never really moderated myself. I just got tired of seeing others unfairly moderated as if we couldn't have discussions like grown adults. I'm not a fan of seeing adults babysat like children.

I just wanted to mention here (because nobody brought it up), but I remember Morrus on multiple occasions confidently stating that ENworld is not a democracy, it's a dictatorship. He even added that to the forum code of conduct if I remember correctly. I understand trying to run a tight ship and keep the place fun and enjoyable, but treating it like a dictatorship doesn't sit well with me. Bragging about it is even more of a turn off. Mostly because, just like what's happened to every inch of our entertainment, that dictatorship style of management is always one-sided (the left side). So I eventually bounced. I've only gone back a couple of times to check in on the old 3.5e Creature Catalogue updates when I need conversions.

I believe the fall of ENworld really cranked up when Morrus decided to commercialize the site and make a living off of it. That's when we lost a lot of great material on the site and it was replaced with SJW bullshit and moneymaking schemes. I fully believe Morrus encouraged this leftist behavior and over-moderation in his attempt to profit more from the site. Non-woke people were a threat to the image he wanted the website to portray.

Agree with most of what is written in this thread.

EN World has devolved into pure SJW / Leftist territory. Not much redeeming value to it, these days.

There is a nice little thread there on how Spelljammer is racist...

https://www.enworld.org/threads/new-wotc-racism-allegations-regarding-hadozee-and-spelljammer.691134/

Apparently the creatures called Hadozee are supposed to be black people because they're space-apes who can play the lute and an early draft of their backstory referred to them as deck apes. 

Never mind the fact that the term "deck ape" has fuck-all to do with black people and everything to do with ridiculing the non-rates doing painting and chipping in Deck Division on USN ships because they're assumed to be too dumb to have qualified for a technical school.

Never mind the fact that they are, in fact, Yazirians from Star Frontiers (they even identify this in the writeup for their origin story) - which is kinda cool that they did a crossover.

But the morons ranting about racism are likely too young to even know about Star Frontiers, but they sure are clawing past each other to prove each is the most not racist...

If your first instinct at seeing a non-human space alien race with a history involving wizards is to declare it racist because they're obviously african people, maybe you're the one with the racist thoughts?

In ENW's heyday, there wouldn't be a bunch of virtue signalling about Yazirians in D&D.  There'd be discussions of how they ended up in D&D and is Spelljammer the past of Star Frontiers?  Someone would put together stats for lasers and albedo suits. Someone would start working on Yazir's planetary geography and what crystal sphere it is in and identify travel distances between it and other campaign settings.  There isn't even any discussion of a really great thing that Spelljammer 5e is attempting - failing forward when the dice don't cooperate or the DM wants to throw a wrinkle into things.

That's really the main reason ENW is a shitshow now - there is pretty much *zero* creativity going into the hobby. It's nothing more than a advertising platform that Morrus collects rent on where the squeaky wheel of SJWs gets the grease in order to keep the cashola flowing into his pockets. 

Compare the discussion on ENW re: Spelljammer vs. the discussion on Polygon.  The response to an article about weird races in Spelljammer that included penguin-people was someone stating they couldn't wait to include D&D Ferengi Penguins into his home game.  And Polygon isn't exactly a far-right outfit...

So I actually registered here simply to talk about Enworld, this is my first post.  8)

I just slid down the internet rabbit hole and it lead me here via the weird roundabout ways that the internet sometimes does when searching for unrelated things.

So I've popped into Enworld from time to time over the years but only reading a few threads here and there about things completely mechanical in nature or related to the D&D game world. I watched a video today about One D&D which then lead me down the rabbit hole to Enworld which eventually led me farther down the rabbit hole to here.

The top post on Enworld was the one about Spelljammer and the Hadozee as mentioned here. When I read the first few messages related to it I was sure I was reading a piss take and people were being facetious. They were talking about WOTC's 'cultural coordinators' and 'sensitivity readers' and "DEI resources" so I was laughing as I read long. About a dozen messages in with no LOLs or smiley faces and I realized. These fucking people are serious! I just sat in utter amazement. Is this a thing now? Are things really this far gone? Has every single once sane place, hobby, activity, been fully converged by the Hive Mind? I guess I need to read more often but admittedly I hadn't read that forum probably in at least 5-6 years.

Also another top message thread was the one listing the numerous sins of TSR including Drow being racist even though they literally look not at all like African Americans. Their features are quite European and they are literally jet black. This did not stop people from saying they had African features and nappy hair in depictions. I've been playing D&D for decades and have seen much artwork in that time. They have never been depicted as such.

What I quickly concluded reading the dozens and dozens of messages lamenting these two things is that, unsurprisingly, the far left lunatics are the most racist people of all. If you see a literal flying monkey, a dark skinned 'evil' being, or an orc and your first thought is "black people" you are racist AF, full stop. Yet, it was all they could talk about and how any creature even remotely simian in appearance should be avoided at all cost. If that doesn't broadcast your absurd latent racism to the world I simply don't know what does.

Anyhow, nice forum you have here, hopefully the mind virus shall not find a host here as the places where non radical cultists can gather seem to be getting vanishingly small these days.

Quote from: Darkwind on August 30, 2022, 10:42:12 PM
So I actually registered here simply to talk about Enworld, this is my first post.  8)

I just slid down the internet rabbit hole and it lead me here via the weird roundabout ways that the internet sometimes does when searching for unrelated things.

So I've popped into Enworld from time to time over the years but only reading a few threads here and there about things completely mechanical in nature or related to the D&D game world. I watched a video today about One D&D which then lead me down the rabbit hole to Enworld which eventually led me farther down the rabbit hole to here.

The top post on Enworld was the one about Spelljammer and the Hadozee as mentioned here. When I read the first few messages related to it I was sure I was reading a piss take and people were being facetious. They were talking about WOTC's 'cultural coordinators' and 'sensitivity readers' and "DEI resources" so I was laughing as I read long. About a dozen messages in with no LOLs or smiley faces and I realized. These fucking people are serious! I just sat in utter amazement. Is this a thing now? Are things really this far gone? Has every single once sane place, hobby, activity, been fully converged by the Hive Mind? I guess I need to read more often but admittedly I hadn't read that forum probably in at least 5-6 years.

Also another top message thread was the one listing the numerous sins of TSR including Drow being racist even though they literally look not at all like African Americans. Their features are quite European and they are literally jet black. This did not stop people from saying they had African features and nappy hair in depictions. I've been playing D&D for decades and have seen much artwork in that time. They have never been depicted as such.

What I quickly concluded reading the dozens and dozens of messages lamenting these two things is that, unsurprisingly, the far left lunatics are the most racist people of all. If you see a literal flying monkey, a dark skinned 'evil' being, or an orc and your first thought is "black people" you are racist AF, full stop. Yet, it was all they could talk about and how any creature even remotely simian in appearance should be avoided at all cost. If that doesn't broadcast your absurd latent racism to the world I simply don't know what does.

Anyhow, nice forum you have here, hopefully the mind virus shall not find a host here as the places where non radical cultists can gather seem to be getting vanishingly small these days.

Darkwind,

Welcome to the Pub. Great post, agree with your take. However, just so you know, there is one module by TSR that depicts Drow as African American: "Queen of the Spiders," published in 1986. The illustrator had no conception of what the Drow were supposed to look like. It looks like an attempt to evoke Tina Turner in "Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome" released in 1985. Sadly the SJWs use that one mistake to "prove" their argument, even though they conveniently ignore every other illustration or description that indicates that Drow have jet black or purple skin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_the_Spiders

Quote from: Darkwind on August 30, 2022, 10:42:12 PM
So I actually registered here simply to talk about Enworld, this is my first post.  8)

I just slid down the internet rabbit hole and it lead me here via the weird roundabout ways that the internet sometimes does when searching for unrelated things.

"Welcome to the layer cake, son."

If you think ENWorld is the drizzling shits, wait until you see RPGNet!   ;)

Quote from: Aglondir on August 31, 2022, 12:13:28 AM
there is one module by TSR that depicts Drow as African American: "Queen of the Spiders," published in 1986. The illustrator had no conception of what the Drow were supposed to look like. It looks like an attempt to evoke Tina Turner in "Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome" released in 1985. Sadly the SJWs use that one mistake to "prove" their argument, even though they conveniently ignore every other illustration or description that indicates that Drow have jet black or purple skin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_the_Spiders

And yet the drow on that cover look badass, cool and sexy.

Quote from: Aglondir on August 31, 2022, 12:13:28 AM

Quote from: Darkwind on August 30, 2022, 10:42:12 PM
So I actually registered here simply to talk about Enworld, this is my first post.  8)

I just slid down the internet rabbit hole and it lead me here via the weird roundabout ways that the internet sometimes does when searching for unrelated things.

So I've popped into Enworld from time to time over the years but only reading a few threads here and there about things completely mechanical in nature or related to the D&D game world. I watched a video today about One D&D which then lead me down the rabbit hole to Enworld which eventually led me farther down the rabbit hole to here.

The top post on Enworld was the one about Spelljammer and the Hadozee as mentioned here. When I read the first few messages related to it I was sure I was reading a piss take and people were being facetious. They were talking about WOTC's 'cultural coordinators' and 'sensitivity readers' and "DEI resources" so I was laughing as I read long. About a dozen messages in with no LOLs or smiley faces and I realized. These fucking people are serious! I just sat in utter amazement. Is this a thing now? Are things really this far gone? Has every single once sane place, hobby, activity, been fully converged by the Hive Mind? I guess I need to read more often but admittedly I hadn't read that forum probably in at least 5-6 years.

Also another top message thread was the one listing the numerous sins of TSR including Drow being racist even though they literally look not at all like African Americans. Their features are quite European and they are literally jet black. This did not stop people from saying they had African features and nappy hair in depictions. I've been playing D&D for decades and have seen much artwork in that time. They have never been depicted as such.

What I quickly concluded reading the dozens and dozens of messages lamenting these two things is that, unsurprisingly, the far left lunatics are the most racist people of all. If you see a literal flying monkey, a dark skinned 'evil' being, or an orc and your first thought is "black people" you are racist AF, full stop. Yet, it was all they could talk about and how any creature even remotely simian in appearance should be avoided at all cost. If that doesn't broadcast your absurd latent racism to the world I simply don't know what does.

Anyhow, nice forum you have here, hopefully the mind virus shall not find a host here as the places where non radical cultists can gather seem to be getting vanishingly small these days.

Darkwind,

Welcome to the Pub. Great post, agree with your take. However, just so you know, there is one module by TSR that depicts Drow as African American: "Queen of the Spiders," published in 1986. The illustrator had no conception of what the Drow were supposed to look like. It looks like an attempt to evoke Tina Turner in "Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome" released in 1985. Sadly the SJWs use that one mistake to "prove" their argument, even though they conveniently ignore every other illustration or description that indicates that Drow have jet black or purple skin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_the_Spiders

Greetings!

Aglondir! Yeah, my friend, I have that module in my library. I always thought the art depiction of Drow were awesome.

I also never compared the Drow to "Black African Americans" or Black Africans. I always viewed them as Drow Elves. As someone else mentioned, the Drow tend to have jet black skin, though some variation is expected--like with the art work depiction here. Some Drow have purplish-like skin, and so on. Though their typical features are classically "Elven" and perhaps if anything, European, with the narrow, straight noses, high brows, angular jawlines and the like. Nothing remotely "African" about Drow, other than having some variation of black skin. Even there, though, the commonality is thread-bare, as the Drow are typically other-worldly black, dark, greyish, or purple. Not the earthy, warm variations found within African humans.

All of the whole "Drow are African Americans" is just bullshit from the get-go. It is all a horrible, race-baiting, race-mongering, hate-filled divisive argument--and a form of philosophical attack. Historically, entomologically, and mythologically, these wack-job racist arguments are utter garbage and baseless. *Sigh*

As for the degradation of EN World, well, yeah, Morrus is himself a Euro Leftist, so it makes sense that he supports and embraces terrible, Leftist, SJW ideology. As we have seen with every institution and form of media and medium that SJW's infiltrate, they are like cockroaches. They warm in, and corrupt, pollute, and destroy. Website communities are no exception.

It is sad that EN World has been corrupted. It used to be a fantastic place, where I contributed extensively. I haven't been there in years, as just a few days or weeks of lurking and reading different threads shows that the place has been overrun and infiltrated entirely by shrieking, sobbing, SJW cultists. They, in turn, are protected, celebrated, and coddled by the moderators at EN World, while anyone that is Conservative and traditional in their worldview--and dares to stand against the Leftist hordes--well, the moderators don't seem to be very coddling at all--they treat SJW cultist members far better, while Conservatives are dogpiled, scolded, or threatened, and otherwise shut the fuck down.

I am far too old to tolerate being nanny-handled by some blue-haired SJW moderator that was still in grade school, hanging onto their mommy's skirt when I was jumping out of helicopters and carrying a rifle for my country. I won't be talked down to, or disrespected. I have zero patience for these peoples' arrogance, condescension, and smug sense of self-righteous entitlement. Nope. Not gonna happen, my friend!

So, I haven't gone back. The place has changed, and it certainly is not an atmosphere where someone like me would be welcomed.

Furthermore--all of the Conservative-minded beasts like me have all long since left EN World. Whenever I have popped in over there, say over the last 10 years, I recognize very few people from the old days. Very, very few. Of the few that remain, they are vastly outnumbered by the shrill cries of the SJW hordes. So, yeah, EN World has been dying for years, being eaten alive from within like termites chewing away at the foundations under your house.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

When are things ever going to return to normal?

When will people return to just reading a race or monster entry in a D&D book, think to themselves "hmm that's cool", and then just continue on reading?

When will every fucking picture, word, phrasing, etc, no longer be forensically studied for any trace of racism?

When will these fucking weirdos leave our hobby so things can just be cool and fun again?

Can't we just have space monkeys or Drow or Orcs without some bored white kids on Twitter trying their best to inject racism into the mix?

I fucking HATE this younger generation. They've done nothing but ruin every thing they've tried to 'correct" for "modern" audiences.

Quote from: Monero on August 31, 2022, 08:40:43 AM
A.When are things ever going to return to normal?

B. When will people return to just reading a race or monster entry in a D&D book, think to themselves "hmm that's cool", and then just continue on reading?

C. When will every fucking picture, word, phrasing, etc, no longer be forensically studied for any trace of racism?

D. When will these fucking weirdos leave our hobby so things can just be cool and fun again?

E. Can't we just have space monkeys or Drow or Orcs without some bored white kids on Twitter trying their best to inject racism into the mix?

I fucking HATE this younger generation. They've done nothing but ruin every thing they've tried to 'correct" for "modern" audiences.

A. Never. Make your own "normal" at your gaming table and gatekeep anyone out

B. Once this generation and time passes where people look at the content of a product instead of the color of the characters skin.

C. Never. It's been like this forever only now cranked upto over 9000

d. Never. They are here to stay until they get bored and like locusts move to another hobby to destroy (see comics, movies, tv shows, etc.)

e. We can, we do. Support creators who make those products and don't inject social politics into them.  See Greg Gillespie and Jame Raggi.

To fight the change that is coming one must stand firm on ones beliefs and bend with the wind of change but do not break.  There has been some good that has come out of the recent products with more old school games coming to the forefront and for every 10 shitty modules on Itch.io you find one that bucks the trend and is useful.  Our hobby is far larger than even the 3.x days and with that comes more people who want to be interested in the game.   This is a Good Thing (tm) and can only make our hobby longer lasting and give our playing table full of players who are interested in trying out D&D.

This is a Seller's Market for DM's: state you are able to run a game and you'll get dozens of applicants to play. You need to weed out the social fuckwits from the norms though, that takes Adulting and Respect for people which are 2 things most SJW types lack in personal skills.

Quote from: Monero on August 31, 2022, 08:40:43 AM
When are things ever going to return to normal?

When will people return to just reading a race or monster entry in a D&D book, think to themselves "hmm that's cool", and then just continue on reading?

When will every fucking picture, word, phrasing, etc, no longer be forensically studied for any trace of racism?

When will these fucking weirdos leave our hobby so things can just be cool and fun again?

Can't we just have space monkeys or Drow or Orcs without some bored white kids on Twitter trying their best to inject racism into the mix?

I fucking HATE this younger generation. They've done nothing but ruin every thing they've tried to 'correct" for "modern" audiences.

I can't say I "hate" this younger generation--I mean, my kids are of this generation (and yes, they are very woke).  I think of the kids as being victims more than anything else of the propaganda that they're getting.  By the time they hit their late 20s, many of these kids will probably cringe at Wokeness and how manipulated they were.  (I just hope that not many will permanently damage themselves in the process...sort of like how Boomers mostly straightened up to become productive members of society, but many also screwed themselves over with drugs and STDs).

Without going into the larger cultural issues, I don't think the industry is going to move away from Wokeness until the larger culture moves away from it--and perhaps the industry will lag behind the larger culture.

I mean, let's be honest--people like me who were the first generation of kids raised on D&D and other RPGs (I played my first D&D game in 1974) tended to be "odd".  We were the outcast social group, nerds and geeks, and in the 70s and 80s no self-respecting jock, stomp, cheerleader, or loadie would be caught dead playing RPGs.

A higher percentage of the people that I played with came out as LGBT, and most are fairly leftist (even though some were arch-conservative in many ways during the 70s and 80s as kids).  I'm kind of the exception, in many ways becoming more conservative as I got older.  But the gaming community has been fairly accepting of the "odd" sorts, so I understand why the whole woke agenda finds support in it.  The Woke agenda came in just asking for "acceptance" and "toleration"--but when they got in positions of power (not that there's any kind of rigid power structure in the gaming world, there's still decision makers and publishers), the kid gloves came off.

So I hate to sound pessimistic, but franking, I don't see the GenCons or WotC or Paizo becoming less Woke any time soon.  As the larger culture may retreat some from the current excesses of wokeness, I don't see it happening to them, and the result will be a distancing of the larger culture from RPGs (sort of a return to the 70s and 80s, but with Wokeness instead of run-of-the-mill nerdiness being the "weirdo factor" that turns people off).  So the industry will probably shrink and become more niche than it already is.

But fear not--with the internet and self-publishing, those run-of-the-mill weirdos like us who don't get into Wokeness can still find each other and have fun just playing the damn games...and we'll accept the LGBT or other "Weirdos" if they just want to do the same and leave the woke crap behind.

Any way, that's just my take on it.

I think it is worth mentioning, as I have done so on this board once or twice, that "leftism" and "wokism" aren't the same thing. Right now there's a lot of crossover, as a large percentage of folks on the left are infected with the woke mind virus, but one can be a leftist and not an adherent of wokism.

As for ENW, it isn't nearly as bad as RPGNet, but I'm not sure if that is mostly because it lacks Tangency. The basic ideological stance (wokism) is similar. The moderation is all very biased, but not only against conservatives, but anyone who isn't "woke" - even on the left, or those not identified with left or right. They liberally throw around the "anti-inclusive content" label on very innocuous posts. The irony is that they enact a form of OneTrueWayism, as can be exhibited in that recent thread on the hadonzee...A certain infamous moderator gave the most condescending red text, which basically said "You're not ready to participate in this conversation yet" - just a few posts down from telling someone not to be condescending!

Wokism is a cult and a mind virus. But what i know will get some people's panties in a wad is that it isn't that different from extreme forms of Christian conservativism, or any other insular belief system that only sees the world through its own eyes and wants to convert everyone to their way of thinking. Meaning, "wokism" is just the left's version of the right's wacky religious fundamentalism. They're both cultish and narrow, dead-end ideologies.

Hadozee are racist now? Let me get this straight: they're saying Hadozee are racist solely on the basis that they're space monkey squirrel people and "monkey" is a slur against POC? And Hadozee bards are racist because... monkey bards are now racial coding for old racist minstrel shows (nevermind that the outfit is standard bard wear everywhere else)? And their new backstory is that they're an animal uplift that revolted against their evil creator... which is bad because they escaped slavery (I get that this kind of backstory is overused, but come on)?

That makes about as much sense as saying dwarves are a racist caricature of Irish Jews (https://alexraizman679957007.wordpress.com/2020/07/12/fantastic-diversity-the-fantasy-genres-unfortunate-implications/).

The hadozee aren't being depicted as inherently evil, or subhuman... they're being introduced as a cool new playable race. But they're racist because they very very loosely resemble a patchwork of piecemeal racist propaganda, despite the fact that they're portrayed as people just like everyone else?

Oh for fuck's sake. It's a furry furbait race! You want obvious racial coding? The roaches from TerraFormars (https://thekenpire.com/2015/03/17/terra-formars-is-an-obscenely-racist-manga-and-anime-series-but-its-sort-of-hilarious/) are an obvious racist caricature, obviously made by a troll for the lulz, that you would have to be delusional to dismiss. If the hadozee spoke ebonics and were naturally athletic, that would be one thing (just look at the literal list of racial coding ascribed to the Martian roaches for comparison). But the 5e hadozee are described as driven by curiosity to become explorers, navigators, privateers, pirates, etc. Hell, "deck apes" is clearly meant to be an offensive slur and not a positive affirmation.

The claim of racism here is even weaker than the drow's curse of ham backstory. The Hadozee are not similar to racist caricature beyond pareidolia. If you see a character like Son Wukong and think "racist!", then you're obviously trolling for something to be offended by.

Quote from: Mercurius on August 31, 2022, 10:45:02 AM
"leftism" and "wokism" aren't the same thing. Right now there's a lot of crossover, as a large percentage of folks on the left are infected with the woke mind virus, but one can be a leftist and not an adherent of wokism.

Most of the public figures that speak out against the left agree that leftism is wokism. Of course I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but it looks like you are saying the same thing but using different terms to define it.

These days, "left" and "liberal" are usually defined as not being the same thing (even though a liberal is on the left of center). One can be a "liberal" and not adhere to "wokism", which I believe is what you are saying. Being "woke" is what makes a person a "leftist". A person can be liberal (often referred to as 'classic liberal') and not be woke.

A lot of people say "liberal" when referring to the left, but it gives good liberals a bad name. So public speakers usually say left (or far-left) when they talk about the woke progressives.

Here is a funny yet true visual aid that shows how the woke moved so far left that they shifted the center line far enough where classic liberals are now right of center:
https://www.readtangle.com/content/images/2022/08/image-1.png (https://www.readtangle.com/content/images/2022/08/image-1.png)

Quote from: Oryan on August 31, 2022, 12:03:23 PM

Quote from: Mercurius on August 31, 2022, 10:45:02 AM
"leftism" and "wokism" aren't the same thing. Right now there's a lot of crossover, as a large percentage of folks on the left are infected with the woke mind virus, but one can be a leftist and not an adherent of wokism.

Most of the public figures that speak out against the left agree that leftism is wokism. Of course I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but it looks like you are saying the same thing but using different terms to define it.

These days, "left" and "liberal" are usually defined as not being the same thing (even though a liberal is on the left of center). One can be a "liberal" and not adhere to "wokism", which I believe is what you are saying. Being "woke" is what makes a person a "leftist". A person can be liberal (often referred to as 'classic liberal') and not be woke.

A lot of people say "liberal" when referring to the left, but it gives good liberals a bad name. So public speakers usually say left (or far-left) when they talk about the woke progressives.

Here is a funny yet true visual aid that shows how the woke moved so far left that they shifted the center line far enough where classic liberals are now right of center:
https://www.readtangle.com/content/images/2022/08/image-1.png (https://www.readtangle.com/content/images/2022/08/image-1.png)

I hear you but no, that's not what I'm saying - I'm not talking about liberals or classical liberals. I think also who you are referring to as "public figures" are largely conservative pundits. Part of the confusion is that the only people who use the term "woke" in public discourse are almost exclusively right-wing pundits attacking the left - which they tend to group into one monolithic group. I'm talking about people on the left - and not just left of center, but further left (e.g. progressives and anarchists) - who either don't give two shits about wokism or actively critique it.

Meaning, if you don't read or listen to people on the left, I can see how it would seem leftism = wokism. But there are plenty of people on the left that aren't "woke," many of whom keep it quiet due to the power of the "woke mob."


I think the (British) Political Compass illustrates what I'm getting at. There isn't just one axis, left vs right, but also a "vertical" one: authoritarian vs. libertarian. Left and right is economic, yet the other axis has been "flatlanded" into it. One can be on the left in terms of economics and political ideology, yet not "woke" - which is the authoritarian variant of leftism.

Similarly, there's the authoritarian right--which are a combination of religious fundamentalists and MAGA types-- and then there are libertarians and classical liberals, and lots of shades in-between. So in a way, wokism is the left's version of the Tea Party and perhaps MAGA: a virulent mob that has taken over the more traditional stance of the left or right.

Or in other words, there's authoritarian left (wokism, Maoism) and the authoritarian right (religious fundamentalists, Tea Party, MAGA). But then there's a more libertarian left and libertarian right, both of whom oppose wokism - or any kind of censorship or limitation of individual freedoms that don't harm others.

Personally speaking, I think the libertarian left and right needs to get together, because right now that axis (libertarian to authoritarian) is more pressing than the left vs. right. Yet the powers that be don't want that; they want to keep people divided and subjugated, and thus stoke the culture wars, so that the people fight against each other, blaming "the other side," rather than looking to those who are running the ship: the political-corporate establishment.

EDIT/TLDR: There's also the semantic issue. "Leftism" means different things to different people, perhaps especially whether one is more on the left or right. That's my point re: wokism and leftism. While people on the right might conflate them, people on the left don't - because many on the left aren't "wokists" and even actively critique it. But it is a tricky business, because if you're on the left and you critique wokism, you're accused of being on the right, or influenced by right-wing or Russian propaganda, etc etc. So you basically have an extremist ideology that has hijacked the left, but doesn't define its underlying ideologies or characterize the viewpoints of many on the left.

Guys, since this thread is drifting into nonRPG territory and since some of you are pretty new, I'm going to play pretend moderator and remind everyone that political, nonRPG posts are against the rules.  Pundit is really strict about this, and the community is small enough that I'd rather not see more folks kicked off the site.

Quote from: Mishihari on August 31, 2022, 01:16:19 PM
Guys, since this thread is drifting into nonRPG territory and since some of you are pretty new, I'm going to play pretend moderator and remind everyone that political, nonRPG posts are against the rules.  Pundit is really strict about this, and the community is small enough that I'd rather not see more folks kicked off the site.

Fair enough. It is tricky, though, because "ENWorld's Decay" is directly related to political and social stuff...so it is really impossible to talk about it, without touching upon such subjects.

But I will anchor any future comments back to ENW.

And here's a further view: ENW is fine a lot of the time - if you're talking about stuff that isn't political or social. There's lots of knowledge there, mostly long-time D&D players, even now. So if you just want to shoot the shit about D&D, it is a good place to be. But the problem is when anything at all political enters the mix - which is quite frequent, and often by Morrus, who has a huge boner for "NuTSR."

And more to the point: the problem is that you can get political or ideological, as long as you're spouting the party line (like the Hadozee thread). If you stray one iota from what is kosher to believe, even in a questioning manner, in comes the red text.

Meaning, you could say something like "I don't think that's racist, sorry," and be labeled for "anti-inclusive content."

The hadozee bard accusation is so flimsy. Google "bard pose" or whatever and you'll find numerous images of bards in similar poses where they balance on one leg or are shot between moves where one leg is bent and the other is nearly straight.

Here are some examples:
https://www.deviantart.com/pccasio/art/COMM-Ocarina-Bard-838150078
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/610941505677289037/
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/18g6g2
https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/eqexmy/oc_so_excited_to_play_my_first_bard_and_somehow_i/
https://twitter.com/byelacey/status/1433533139951960068
https://images.app.goo.gl/JHd9pviQBCYXLZRL6
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/Yawmyq
https://www.deviantart.com/samsantala/art/Faeraxx-Dragonborn-Bard-727287989

Wokies only started complaining when a monkey squirrel alien did the pose. Probably because they subconsciously associate any depictions of apes/monkeys with POC and are primed to think "Oh no, is this depiction a caricature of POC?"

Minstrel shows were bad because of the blackface and the denigration of black folks. If you look up black southern culture, some of the traditional dress for musicians looks similar: e.g. https://images.app.goo.gl/jMFB7QGUUuGHDCLj8

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 31, 2022, 02:45:37 PM
The hadozee bard accusation is so flimsy. Google "bard pose" or whatever and you'll find numerous images of bards in similar poses where they balance on one leg or are shot between moves where one leg is bent and the other is nearly straight.

These people act like they've never heard of Ian Anderson (OK, they probably think his name is Jethro, but that's irrelevant). Interestingly, his nickname from barding in such pose was "flamingo", not "monkey", ... a very pink animal.