TheRPGSite

What a complete crock of shit this Enworld post  (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?3410-Why-We-Need-To-Pay-What-Games-Are-Worth-Not-What-We-Think-They-Should-Cost)by professional ignoramus Christopher Helton is. Someone made the same argument before, years ago, and I refuted it already in a previous blog post.  Entitled game designers do not get to set Price Controls, Helton, just so that they can get the rock-star lifestyle they think their imagined genius entitles them to.

Why is it that semi-competent assholes in the gaming industry always end up hiding in one of two demands: either that everyone start paying more for their products, or that we somehow reduce the number of people writing competing products?

Because it's happened in every single form of media to date in some fashion.  I can point several non-Gaming related industries in which virtual monopolies exist, where we're forced to accept what we're getting because only one source exists for it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;896932Because it's happened in every single form of media to date in some fashion.  I can point several non-Gaming related industries in which virtual monopolies exist, where we're forced to accept what we're getting because only one source exists for it.

may i ask what your examples are you've peeked my interest

First the "RPG Content Glut" now "RPGs Should Cost More". RPGs will cost what the market will bear. If not enough gamers will *pay* $60+ for your shiny, full color, hardcover rulebook (or more likely B&W HC rulebook) then either find a way to produce it more cheaply or find a different way to make money because the demand for your product simply isn't there.  Simple economic truth.

And this ignores the fact that gamers are willing to pay those prices for *some* RPG books Granted most of those are from the top tier publishers, and most often for licensed properties as well.

There is also the fact that e-books are the future of RPG publishing. I know I have bought many games soley because I could get them as an electronic version. I do not have the physical space it would require to store my RPG library if it were all hard copy. It is a bonus that electronic versions are usually cheaper as well.

Make something I want to buy and I'll buy it, it's not $60 I balk at.

Quote from: kosmos1214;896933may i ask what your examples are you've peeked my interest

Windows Desktop/Laptop Operating system, hence Microsoft.  Yes, there are Macs and Linux, but they don't have half the mental and physical market share.  To a lot of people, especially those making computer based products, their number one thought is how to make it work with whatever version of the Windows OS that is out now.  It's so bad that at one point, the U.S. Government tried to sue Microsoft to stop bundling their Windows Internet Browser, to all for some competition.  We all see how well that worked.

Ma Bell.  For all the Cell Phone providers out there, what a lot of people don't know is that Bell Telecom and AT&T are the only ones in the mainland U.S. that can actually provide wireless service.  Up here in my area of Canada, it's Bell and a local Cable Company called Rogers.  But just about everywhere you look, Bell is there.  And all those little Cellphone services you see on TV?  Each and everyone is RENTING their signal from either Bell, or AT&T.  Which is why some of them have worse service than Bell (which is kinda impressive, cuz Bell is so big, they don't care.)

In the World of Vidya Games:  If you want to play a fast paced, corridor shooter, there's only one company you can buy the Call of Duty franchise from, Activision.  It doesn't matter how bad the company treats it's employees, if you want your Call of Duty fix, they gotcha by the balls.  And all they do is front the money to make it.  Other than some level of executive mandate (we see this all the time in Warner Bros. DC films, which in my opinion has not had one good/decent Superhero movie since 1989.) they actually do nothing for the game.  They are a choke point, no one else can publish Call of Duty.

Those are just a few of the virtual monopolies in the world right now, that are getting away with crushing any chance of competition and choice.

The point is, that those games aren´t worth the money the designers think they do. Worth is in the eye of the customer:

I (would, looking at the current proposals) pay for content that both:
a) is about things I am interested in (and here rather as tools and multi use elements than theme)
b) saving me work at the edges, so that I can focus on the elements that interest me most.

My impression of most offers seem to be that designers do:
a) do what interests them most
b) leave the boring fiddly details to the customer to fill out.

And then it doesn´t increase "worth" a bit that he took hours to do it and used costly materials and art. Double points if similar or better content is available for free.

I can understand and sympathize with the idea that when someone is employing someone that he should pay at least life bearing wages, but then we would probably don´t see much of an industrie. (which I think wouldn´t change that much to RPG gaming overall)
Someone self employed on the other hand is also self respsonsible that the money is OK or has to recognize, that he needs a different job.

If you want to get paid for media content nobody is interested in, you have to work for government propaganda, but even then someone else will probably decide what you write unless you are in the "filler program".

My suggestion:
Anyone that thinks that the problem is that there is too much competition around, should probably do something against it - and stop being part of "the content glut".

Quote from: RPGPundit;896929What a complete crock of shit this Enworld post  (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?3410-Why-We-Need-To-Pay-What-Games-Are-Worth-Not-What-We-Think-They-Should-Cost)by professional ignoramus Christopher Helton is. Someone made the same argument before, years ago, and I refuted it already in a previous blog post.  Entitled game designers do not get to set Price Controls, Helton, just so that they can get the rock-star lifestyle they think their imagined genius entitles them to.

Why is it that semi-competent assholes in the gaming industry always end up hiding in one of two demands: either that everyone start paying more for their products, or that we somehow reduce the number of people writing competing products?

Hyperbole aside, the main issues is that the economics of publishing have drastically changed. The barrier to get something in print and into a distribution system has drastically lowered. Also how it organized has radically changed. It more of a collaborative effort with gamers acting as patrons of their favorite authors and artists. A situation where freelancers and paid staff are becoming rare in favor of ad-hoc partnerships. To people used to the traditional methods of publishing and distribution it seems like armageddon.

Despite the changes, people manage to make art-heavy products, pay their artist and make a profit. It just now surrounded by a sea of products of every level of quality down to simple black and white text. While before these products would not be seen beyond a circle of friend in one's hometown now the whole planet is a potential audience.

Finally we live in a time where the board game is king. Wargame had their time, then roleplaying games, and now board games and card games rule the roost. The good news is that we have a board game renaissance at all. This means there is still hope for face to face gaming that the internet is just going to be one, albeit very popular, option among many for entertainment. And unlike the old model the current lack of widespread popularity for tabletop roleplaying doesn't spell it death. The internet brought hex and counter wargame from a near death in the 90s, and now it will serve to keep tabletop roleplaying a living breathing hobby.

The answer in the new age is that you have to cultivate your audience. You can no longer just sit around and let other do it for you.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;896932Because it's happened in every single form of media to date in some fashion.  I can point several non-Gaming related industries in which virtual monopolies exist, where we're forced to accept what we're getting because only one source exists for it.

I don't think that the issue with tabletop roleplaying in 2016.

can't this guy cover costs via Kickstarter?

Its like artists who want to be paid by the hour. Rather than per commission based on, oh, their talent and speed, or lack thereof.

I was reading that article and thread earlier today and was blown away by the sheer idiocy of some of the posters. No game designer, even one of the truly awesome ones, is entitled to my money. If they put out something great at a price I can afford, I'm happy to pay it. But it's like some of these guys think every gamer out there should be dropping $10,000 or more a year on gaming materials.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;896937Windows Desktop/Laptop Operating system, hence Microsoft.  Yes, there are Macs and Linux, but they don't have half the mental and physical market share.

Except that is a poor analogy in 2016. The computer landscape has shifted. iOS and Android are eating Windows lunch and Microsoft is unable to compete head to head. Except that is not so simple either because iOS and Android devices are still piss poor at productivity applications. But that not simple either because web developers are doing amazing thing with HTML5 and server backends.

What has happened is that the landscape shifted into a new mode.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;896937To a lot of people, especially those making computer based products, their number one thought is how to make it work with whatever version of the Windows OS that is out now.

Windows was dominant because developers in the 90s like myself found it to be the superior solution for our application. Apple and Unix/Linux sucked major ass when you try to develop and deploy an application. Nothing really changed in the 2000s, but now in 2016 writing web apps has become a serious alternative for certain applications. But when it comes to regular computer application, windows is still the system to develop for.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;896937It's so bad that at one point, the U.S. Government tried to sue Microsoft to stop bundling their Windows Internet Browser, to all for some competition.  We all see how well that worked.

It failed because the government didn't have the case they thought they did. But they also succeeded because it paused Microsoft by just enough to allow Google and the open source community to catch up. Now IE is just one of several choices for browsing the web. And with the rise of iOS, Safari has carved a niche.

Ma Bell.  For all the Cell Phone providers out there, what a lot of people don't know is that Bell Telecom and AT&T are the only ones in the mainland U.S. that can actually provide wireless service.  

I don't know where you get your information in the US there are at least twodozen wireless operator who operate their own equipment and networks. Although there are five that have true nationwide reach, the rest are regional companies. Now there is a greater number of virtual wireless operators that do indeed lease service from the major companies.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;896937In the World of Vidya Games:  If you want to play a fast paced, corridor shooter, there's only one company you can buy the Call of Duty franchise from, Activision.  It doesn't matter how bad the company treats it's employees, if you want your Call of Duty fix, they gotcha by the balls.  And all they do is front the money to make it.  Other than some level of executive mandate (we see this all the time in Warner Bros. DC films, which in my opinion has not had one good/decent Superhero movie since 1989.) they actually do nothing for the game.  They are a choke point, no one else can publish Call of Duty.

Damn, I must be out of mind because I swear I have Battlefield 4 installed on my computer. I must seeing an illusion when I look at Steam and I see game like Rust, ARK, Doom, etc.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;896937Those are just a few of the virtual monopolies in the world right now, that are getting away with crushing any chance of competition and choice.

Maybe it way different in Canada. Because it doesn't sound at all like what world of entertainment is like at the present in the United States.

Some of them even want you to pay them before they've written anything.

Quote from: estar;896951Maybe it way different in Canada. Because it doesn't sound at all like what world of entertainment is like at the present in the United States.

Much of Brady's post is ridiculously overblown, but yes, things are different in Canada. Entertainment, media and telecommunications are heavily regulated and there are government-enforced monopolies.

As far as the OP goes, yeah....dude seems impervious to the most likely explanation, which is that game designers are producing crap that isn't significantly better than what people can turn out on their own.

With regards to tabletop RPGs, the biggest factor remains that one can just hack D&D to do what you want at your table for free- and now it's really easy to do so. Once you're at that point, spending money on rules becomes pointless and all you're really after is plug-and-play content. Less rulebooks. More modules.

Like many things, there are some elements of truth in the originally quoted post.  Mostly that yeah, a good chunk of gamers are cheap shitheels.  So are a good chunk of potential buyers of just about anything.  "80% of your sales come from 20% of your customer base" is an old, old principle.

On the other hand I feel like the production standards of many modern game books are absurdly high.  Do we NEED hard covers, massive amounts of color, heavy weight high gloss paper, etc?  I'm not advocating a return to Judges' Guild original smudged newsprint production standards, but RPG books are ridiculous.

Also, game designers can ask to be paid as much as they please.

I'm not saying they deserve it, just that they can ask.

Game designers sure seem to like shaming their buying audience. When we're not playing the right way, or being progressive enough to their standards, we're too cheap and ungrateful.

The gaming industry's kind of like the cosmetics industry ("ladies, get a hold of yourself, you're a mess"). Another notch in my "man, FUCK the internet" tally. So close to abandoning social media and forums.

Eh. The same economy that makes me reluctant to drop a chunk of change on any new RPG book is the one that makes them need more. Welcome to push-pull of economy.

And yet, on occasion, I have felt compelled to make purchases I might call extravagant when the product is good. But you have to earn that.

I know that the pay is not good in the RPG field. But a genuine question I have is: is the market such that the market value for RPG writers impacting the value of products coming out? I may be missing some examples, but I've been pretty impressed by some of what I see being put out, and I've had little reason to lament those that have quit RPG writing for greener pastures.

In a way, the joy of RPGs is part of the problem RPG writers are facing. To wit, too many good designers stay despite the poor rate because they love what they do.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896962Do we NEED hard covers, massive amounts of color, heavy weight high gloss paper, etc?  I'm not advocating a return to Judges' Guild original smudged newsprint production standards, but RPG books are ridiculous.

I just like a product to hold up to use at the gaming table.  Colored interiors, while nice to look at, usually are tougher for me to read at the table.  I prefer b&w, easier on my aging orbs.

I appreciate a big, beautiful full color book.

BUT

I lament when a pretty book is not worth playing. (Burning Empires, why can't you be good?)

I was with the author until this point...

Quotetell writers what they want a game to do, make sure that it gets done, hire editors to make sure that the writing makes sense

Which says to me this isn't a game designer, this is a guy who wants to be paid for being middle management (aka parasite).

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;896957With regards to tabletop RPGs, the biggest factor remains that one can just hack D&D to do what you want at your table for free- and now it's really easy to do so. Once you're at that point, spending money on rules becomes pointless and all you're really after is plug-and-play content. Less rulebooks. More modules.

In business it is called substitution, the making of your own material, and is very common for niche products.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896963Also, game designers can ask to be paid as much as they please.

I'm not saying they deserve it, just that they can ask.

Charge what the market will bear, it will sort the successful from the rest, this is how it works.

Quote from: dragoner;896972In business it is called substitution, the making of your own material, and is very common for niche products.

It seems like it would be all that more common in a passtime that claims to be a 'hobby'.

My problem is the "people deserve..." idea.

You deserve nothing. You are entitled to nothing. If you can fulfill some need, perform some service that others are willing to pay for, good for you.

But no one owes you anything. Learn that lesson, and spare the rest of us your entitled, self-indulgent whining.

I am a cheap ass.  I try to get as much value for my dollar as I can.  There's a lot of free material being put out by people who love creating that is of extremely high quality.  Maybe 10-20 years ago, most people didn't have access to that material, nowadays with this interweb thing, they do.

Quote from: Simlasa;896973It seems like it would be all that more common in a passtime that claims to be a 'hobby'.

Sure. Even beyond hobbies, you see it in things like beer and wine. A lot of what I see in complaints from small press game designers, like with the article in the OP, is that they don't know the rules of the game. That game being business, that is both old and refined, there is a truism there though, because it's practically the first thing written in Business 101 textbooks, most people do not really understand how business works.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896962Do we NEED hard covers, massive amounts of color, heavy weight high gloss paper, etc?

Whether we need them is irrelevant.  We don't "need" RPGs at all.  Paizo, at least, has demonstrated that people want coffee table books with statblocks in them, even if they're never used to play, and will pay for such (I think they said once that 50% of the people who buy their Adventure Paths buy them just to read them. Which is why the NPCs have such elaborately diverse backstories).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896962On the other hand I feel like the production standards of many modern game books are absurdly high.  Do we NEED hard covers, massive amounts of color, heavy weight high gloss paper, etc?  I'm not advocating a return to Judges' Guild original smudged newsprint production standards, but RPG books are ridiculous.

I much prefer hard covers.  Easier for me to hold, nicer to look at, and hold up better than soft cover, IMO.  On the other hand, black & white and matte paper serves me just fine.

Quote from: estar;896942I don't think that the issue with tabletop roleplaying in 2016.

YOu're right.  But sometimes there's some idiot who thinks his 'product' is better than everyone else's and that means they should be on top.

Quote from: estar;896951Except that is a poor analogy in 2016. The computer landscape has shifted. iOS and Android are eating Windows lunch and Microsoft is unable to compete head to head. Except that is not so simple either because iOS and Android devices are still piss poor at productivity applications. But that not simple either because web developers are doing amazing thing with HTML5 and server backends.

What has happened is that the landscape shifted into a new mode.

I dispute this because Android and iOS are not mainframe OS's that a lot, I daresay most, businesses use for their data entry and manipulation.  Android and iOS are personal device software, which Microsoft was too late to be able to penetrate into.  Which also proves my point, to a certain degree.

Quote from: estar;896951Windows was dominant because developers in the 90s like myself found it to be the superior solution for our application. Apple and Unix/Linux sucked major ass when you try to develop and deploy an application. Nothing really changed in the 2000s, but now in 2016 writing web apps has become a serious alternative for certain applications. But when it comes to regular computer application, windows is still the system to develop for.

You're not disputing my point.  You're agreeing with it...  

Quote from: estar;896951It failed because the government didn't have the case they thought they did. But they also succeeded because it paused Microsoft by just enough to allow Google and the open source community to catch up. Now IE is just one of several choices for browsing the web. And with the rise of iOS, Safari has carved a niche.

Hence why I said virtual monopolies.  Which is JUST enough to keep the government off MS's back.  But we all know that in terms of Mainframe software, Microsoft is pretty much the only OS manufacturer.

Quote from: estar;896951Ma Bell.  For all the Cell Phone providers out there, what a lot of people don't know is that Bell Telecom and AT&T are the only ones in the mainland U.S. that can actually provide wireless service.  

I don't know where you get your information in the US there are at least twodozen wireless operator who operate their own equipment and networks. Although there are five that have true nationwide reach, the rest are regional companies. Now there is a greater number of virtual wireless operators that do indeed lease service from the major companies.

I may be off with AT&T, but Bell?  Bell is EVERYWHERE in North America.  In fact, it's so big that it IS everywhere.  And you just proved it by saying that the smaller operators, the ones that would have most people believe are actually NOT affiliated with Bell, actually are.

Quote from: estar;896951Damn, I must be out of mind because I swear I have Battlefield 4 installed on my computer. I must seeing an illusion when I look at Steam and I see game like Rust, ARK, Doom, etc.

I'm confused here.  Seriously.  You just listed about 5 games that are unlike CoD in experience that, you're pretty much proving my point again.  If you want an open space, vehicle driven war shooter, you're not going to go to Activision, you're going to EA and the Battlefield series.  In fact, you're not going to find anyone else selling Battlefield.  As for Doom?  That's Bethesda Softworks.

Quote from: estar;896951Maybe it way different in Canada. Because it doesn't sound at all like what world of entertainment is like at the present in the United States.

All of which did not refute my point what so ever.

Seriously, and I'm not being snarky here, what exactly were you trying to do?

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;896966I know that the pay is not good in the RPG field. But a genuine question I have is: is the market such that the market value for RPG writers impacting the value of products coming out? I may be missing some examples, but I've been pretty impressed by some of what I see being put out, and I've had little reason to lament those that have quit RPG writing for greener pastures.

My observation that it is largely a reputation driven business now. So the answer is no there is little to no effect.

If you have the rep, people will pay, to a point. I have seen several OSR publishers bootstrap them up from nothing into what is a either full-time business or near enough. I am sure other RPG systems have done the same. But almost nobody is a traditional corporation with paid staff employees. Everything is an ad-hoc project comprised of principle owners (author or ip holder), freelancers, artists, editors, and a layout person. The ones that get the bucks are those who can work this to produce quality projects for a dedicated customer base along with a certain amount of self-promotion.

The losers in all this are the people that are just good at writing but nothing else. It is very difficult to bootstrap yourself unless you have some luck or willing to do self-promotion. What I have seen is people who are good at writing and just OK in the other areas work into a position where they are part of a partnership/corporation with a small group of people that have people good at promotion, layout, editing, etc.

But if you are known for the quality of your product and for the ability to produce on a timely basis then it can be almost as good as printing money. But it takes work to get there, a little luck, and more work to maintain that reputation.

No one likes the idea of unionizing D&D for some reason.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;896932Because it's happened in every single form of media to date in some fashion.  I can point several non-Gaming related industries in which virtual monopolies exist, where we're forced to accept what we're getting because only one source exists for it.

I wouldn't call Microsoft owning Windows a monopoly on who owns Windows. Linux runs on pretty much every Macintosh these days. Crazy people could say that Linux has a monopoly on Macs.

I appreciate that it's difficult to make a living from elfgames and I kind of feel for him, but hey, the market is a bitch, and when you choose a career you've got to take the good with the bad. Some days I hate my job too.

Now, the medical bankruptcy issue is... something else, that (to the best of my understanding) is an all too common tragedy in thd US, anc has very little to do with one's career choices.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;896981I dispute this because Android and iOS are not mainframe OS's that a lot, I daresay most, businesses use for their data entry and manipulation.  Android and iOS are personal device software, which Microsoft was too late to be able to penetrate into.  Which also proves my point, to a certain degree.

This is my favorite part of Jurassic Park. Let me get my VR glove so I can log into this UNIX, which I happen to know.

Where'd that popcorn emoticon go?

Quote from: daniel_ream;896977Whether we need them is irrelevant.  We don't "need" RPGs at all.  Paizo, at least, has demonstrated that people want coffee table books with statblocks in them, even if they're never used to play, and will pay for such (I think they said once that 50% of the people who buy their Adventure Paths buy them just to read them. Which is why the NPCs have such elaborately diverse backstories).

I'm going to go ahead and fess up to buying pretty RPG books that I kinda know I'm never going to play. For example, Hellas, and Mouse Guard. I'm currently playing in three long-term, consistent campaigns (running nothing), which might be my personal best since college in the 80s, so I don't have a shred of armchair-gamer shame (no offense meant to Armchair Gamer) for those purchases and the frame of mind I was in when I bought them.

Just thought I should come clean, here among friends.

All I see in that article is some "let's make sure we make our money" talk/rabble rousing, which doesn't offend me in the slightest.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;896981I dispute this because Android and iOS are not mainframe OS's that a lot, I daresay most, businesses use for their data entry and manipulation.  Android and iOS are personal device software, which Microsoft was too late to be able to penetrate into.  Which also proves my point, to a certain degree.

You missed my comment about HTML5  which a lot of business are starting to use for data entry and manipulation. And while Linux/Unix has negligible presence on the desktop, it is a major competitor of Microsoft for server. Windows has a dominant position that is fragile due to the advancement in computer technology.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;896981You're not disputing my point.  You're agreeing with it...

You are trying hold up Microsoft as this big bad force, well they were neither saint or sinner. You bought the fallacy of Windows is crap and is only dominant because Microsoft used their monopoly to force it that way. That not how it happened. Windows became dominant because Microsoft treated their developers like gold. Except for a brief period in the mid 2000s, it was always stupidly easy to get going with developing stuff for Microsoft Windows. Because Windows was good enough as a desktop OS it won over the Mac and IBM's OS/2. I know this from personal experience having started programming in early 80s while I was in high school and continued professionally. However the dominance of windows did not stop the development of alternatives and when the wheel of technology turned again with the Internet, and then turn again with the rise of personal devices, it demonstrated how fragile the dominance of Windows is. Desktop computer didn't go away, nor did Windows as the dominant OS but now the market has EXPANDED to encompass a lot more than desktops and laptops. That expansion has now dwarfs the desktop market.

That the part that makes it relevant to the RPG Industry. The internet, and the continued development of computer technology has enabled a publisher to reach his customers far more easily than before. To the point were one person can make a living off an audience in the low hundreds while releasing his shit for free. i.e. Dyson Logos (https://www.patreon.com/dysonlogos?ty=h)  It just doesn't matter that Wizard and Pazio have the two top RPG to somebody who trying to break into the industry.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;896981Hence why I said virtual monopolies.  Which is JUST enough to keep the government off MS's back.  But we all know that in terms of Mainframe software, Microsoft is pretty much the only OS manufacturer.

This demonstrates your ignorance of how the computer industry works. IBM dominates the mainframe business. A mainframe is a specific type of computer hardware that specializes in high speed processing and high speed I/O. Microsoft is a leading competitor for DESKTOP SERVERS.  Microsoft servers runs neck to neck with various Linux and Unix distributions. Microsoft is only dominate in two area. Desktop Operating systems and Office software. In every other area they are second best or lag far behind their competition. One of the areas they try to compete in cloud computing with their Azure platform but in that space they have to compete against Amazon and Google who sell similar services.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;896981I may be off with AT&T, but Bell?  Bell is EVERYWHERE in North America.  In fact, it's so big that it IS everywhere.  And you just proved it by saying that the smaller operators, the ones that would have most people believe are actually NOT affiliated with Bell, actually are.

In terms of anything involving land lines you are correct. Nearly all of the land infrastructure involving cables and wires is owned by a company descended from one of the Bell corporations that originated with the AT&T breakup in the 1980s. However in the United State with WIRELESS service that is not the case at all. The five leading competitors are Verizon, T-Mobile, Sprint, US Cellular and yep AT&T.  All of these own their own hardware and cell towers. However to due to regulations they often share space or land with other wireless carriers and wireless towers.

What you are confusing this with is the fact that after the AT&T break up in the 1980s, a bunch of long-distance companies sprung up, Sprint among them. All of them had to lease lines off of the old AT&T network that was owned by a single company, forgot the name, who got the hardware side of the AT&T business.

Again this is what happened in the United States, which may not be what happened in Canada.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;896981I'm confused here.  Seriously.  You just listed about 5 games that are unlike CoD in experience that, you're pretty much proving my point again.  If you want an open space, vehicle driven war shooter, you're not going to go to Activision, you're going to EA and the Battlefield series.  In fact, you're not going to find anyone else selling Battlefield.  As for Doom?  That's Bethesda Softworks.

Dude they are all first person shooters, with multiplayer support and a single player campaign. They are all the same genre. Out of all them the Battlefield series is Call of Duty DIRECT competitor. What the hell point YOU are trying to make here. Call of Duty is a specific series of games in a specific genre of computer gaming. It not a monopoly situation as everybody understands the word.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;896981All of which did not refute my point what so ever.

Seriously, and I'm not being snarky here, what exactly were you trying to do?

You are reacting to the present day situation with gaming as if it was an earlier. Back in the day where there were gaming stores, and a distribution channel then monopolies were a big deal and had a serious impact on the market. But that is not the case today. For the type of stuff we are talking about here (tabletop and computer games) it doesn't matter anymore. Because of Kickstarter, Patreon, Lulu, RPGNow/DriveThru, Amazon, Steam, Good Old Games, Origins, etc, etc nobody can use a monopoly or near monopoly situation to choke out the competition. Everything is just a click away.

Granted it not everybody has access, but it still expanding and hasn't finished yet.

The problem that you are complaining about, what Helton is complaining over on enworld DOESN'T MATTER anymore. It is literally a new game in the world of distributing creative stuff and there are new rules.  The main effect of which is that there are no longer these discrete steps in what being produced. It used to be that you have to had X capital to print something get in distribution. That hasn't changed much but what there are alternatives. Alternative that allow a single person to bootstrap himself into a position where he is now using more traditional methods of distribution. This is true of tabletop and this is true of computer games for example Minecraft which went from a web browser app to a multi-billion dollar enterprise. As consequence we get EVERYTHING now. From simple black and white booklets sent to a handful of people, to full color hardbacks distributed internationally.

So I have to ask, what your problem with all of this. You can't get something published? Can't get a job in the industry? Are you overwhelmed with all the choices available? Do you feel that all the choices are crap? If the answer is yes to any of these, the problem isn't with the industry. The problem isn't even you. The problem is that you lack the information to overcome the issues you are having. You can bitch and moan or you can ask one of use how we dealt with these issues. How do you get something published. How do you get a job in the industry. How do you sort out the stuff you like. And how do you find the good stuff.

Quote from: daniel_ream;896977Whether we need them is irrelevant.  We don't "need" RPGs at all.  Paizo, at least, has demonstrated that people want coffee table books with statblocks in them, even if they're never used to play, and will pay for such (I think they said once that 50% of the people who buy their Adventure Paths buy them just to read them. Which is why the NPCs have such elaborately diverse backstories).

Once again we're stymied by the lack of hard data.  Yes I know we don't "need" rpgs.  But would a less elaborate "game oriented" product sell enough more to raise the revenue curve sufficiently?  We're back in the SPI dilemma elaborated by Redmond Simonson 40 years ago... some people buy games to play, some to look at and read and admire, and the wants of the two groups are almost diametrically opposed.

In my short time here I don't think anyone else has impressed me with their willingness to unironically engage just about anyone of any level in the way that estar does. Truly a credit to the site.

Thank you, sir.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896992Once again we're stymied by the lack of hard data.

We're really not.  No frills products of the type you're describing are still sold all the time, in PDF or POD format.  Chaosium had monographs for years. The market has spoken pretty clearly: higher production values sell better.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896962Like many things, there are some elements of truth in the originally quoted post.  Mostly that yeah, a good chunk of gamers are cheap shitheels.  So are a good chunk of potential buyers of just about anything.  "80% of your sales come from 20% of your customer base" is an old, old principle.

On the other hand I feel like the production standards of many modern game books are absurdly high.  Do we NEED hard covers, massive amounts of color, heavy weight high gloss paper, etc?  I'm not advocating a return to Judges' Guild original smudged newsprint production standards, but RPG books are ridiculous.

Exactly.  I've ranted long and often on the subject, and the absurd amount of non-information filler jammed into RPG products just boggles my mind.

But ... sheesh.

Over the course of a seven year period (and a bunch of years ago now), I sold a dozen some-odd RPG products.  Part of it was egoboo.  Part of it was starting to do so as a broke college student, and it was income.  But the most I ever got paid was $1500 for a 32-page Conan solo, and that much was triple the going rate for the same: the company only offered that much because of a sudden hole in their inviolable publication schedule, on the condition that I put a camera-ready, proofed MS in their hands in four weeks flat.  (I didn't sleep a whole lot that month.)  I never had any delusion that I could make a living at RPG writing; one of my players at the time was the president of a game company that had one of the most touted supplements of the 1980s, and he made very little money from the hobby — the family income was based on his day job as an environmental services executive.

Yes, it'd sure be nice if society would be so kind as to pay us all enough to maintain the lifestyle we wanted, doing what we wanted to do.

That isn't the way the world works.  Yes, it's regrettable that the likes of Loren Wiseman have had financial problems, but forgive me if I'm a bit more exercised about the fate of my next-door neighbor Brad.  He's pushing 80, he has health woes of his own, he just had to put his wife in a nursing home he can't afford, the closest of his children lives five hours away, and he does mowing and snowblowing for the neighboring landlords for a few extra dollars.  Brad doesn't have a Wikipedia article; he worked in the local paper mills, when there still were local paper mills.  I don't figure several dozen GDW fanboys would rally to help Brad make ends meet.

Our economic system is based around the principle of things being worth what their purchasers are willing to pay for them.  The market's established what people are willing to pay for gaming products.  No one compelled me to take the prices on offer, or my friend Rich, or Mr. Helton.  Like any one of us, Helton's free to take on whatever job he thinks will pay him what he wants.

This ENworld author is free to charge double the market average for his products. He may even have people pay it.

I dropped $250 on the Conan boardgame (with bonus add-on goodies), and it kinda insane. I know I'm gonna have to play a crapton to make the ROI worth it, but FOR ME, it looks like a replacement for Warhammer Quest.

Then I dropped $100 on The Others: Seven Sins because I convinced myself I'll be using the minis for RPGs, but my brain kept saying $100 for a boardgame??

It's harder FOR ME to justify that money on RPGs. Why? Because I can't open a RPG book and run a game, like I can with a boardgame. No brains, just open the box, pick a scenario and go to the fun bits. With a RPG, I'm gonna be the GM most likely, gonna do a bunch of prep, gonna do some group chargen and then eventually play. Lots more investment of time for me. Thus, I am less likely to jump on a new RPG bandwagon.

Except if Kevin Crawford writes something. Then I just throw money at him because my ROI with his stuff has been great.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896992We're back in the SPI dilemma elaborated by Redmond Simonson 40 years ago... some people buy games to play, some to look at and read and admire, and the wants of the two groups are almost diametrically opposed.

Agreed.

Quote from: Brand55;896946I was reading that article and thread earlier today and was blown away by the sheer idiocy of some of the posters. No game designer, even one of the truly awesome ones, is entitled to my money. If they put out something great at a price I can afford, I'm happy to pay it. But it's like some of these guys think every gamer out there should be dropping $10,000 or more a year on gaming materials.

It's your moral duty!

BTW, the most valuable part of the ENworld post was mentioning that 2 gaming dudes need some medical help.

Charles Wright of Frog God Games
https://www.gofundme.com/29e76zrf

Loren Wiseman of Traveller fame
https://www.youcaring.com/loren-k-wiseman-495303

I'm sorry; I guess I'm just stupid. I was under the impression that if somebody had something I wanted, if I offered them money they'd sell it to me. If they didn't, then they would not get my money. I don't spend a lot of money on the hobby because there is very little out there that I want; when I do find something, like the 'Temple of Set' figures from Dark Fable, then I'll spend. Otherwise, not.

Quote from: Spinachcat;897007BTW, the most valuable part of the ENworld post was mentioning that 2 gaming dudes need some medical help.

Charles Wright of Frog God Games
https://www.gofundme.com/29e76zrf

Loren Wiseman of Traveller fame
https://www.youcaring.com/loren-k-wiseman-495303

Agreed!!!

I have some thoughts on the article but now it is sadly not the time for posting it (work is waiting for me) but I have read a most excellent post from Kevin Crawford that I will shamelessly copy there :

Originally post on Enworld by Kevin Crawford :

" These are just a few observations from an RPG publisher who is earning a very livable wage from his work.

The market doesn't care. It is theoretically possible to bend the market by positioning your good as a virtue signal, as in "fair trade" coffee, but I'd put the odds of the RPG industry being able to pull of something like that at slim to none. It's also theoretically possible to bend the market by developing a personal brand that makes individual buyers more willing to pay extra because they like you, personally, but this is not a solution that generalizes to a market. Publishers are most likely to see a return on efforts made to deal with the market as they find it or to build the kind of personal branding that fuels successful Kickstarters, where it's relatively easy to price discriminate.

You write for the market. 350+ page full-color books on shiny paper are lovely things, but if the market isn't paying for them, I don't write them. There's a reason that Sine Nomine core books top out under 250 pages, and that's because I can't get paid for an extra hundred or two hundred or four hundred pages between the same covers. I can move a 200-page b/w book for $39.99 with no fuss, or $19.99 in PDF, so that's what I write. I'm experimenting with color for my next core book, and if it pays off I'll repeat it and if it doesn't I won't.

The marginal dollar is not always worth it. The vast majority of small RPG publishers are one-man shops. There is no earthly reason why these people should be trying to get into FLGS distribution. I get about $20 on a b/w hardback sold for $39.99 through DTRPG. If I tried to move that hardback through conventional retail, I'd be lucky to get 3 or 4 dollars after the distributor wet their beak and the retailer took the standard discounts. I could get a better margin if I committed to a print run, but any print run of less than 5,000 copies or so has minimal economies of scale, and small pub RPGs do not sell 5,000 paper copies as a general rule. Chasing this marginal dollar would expose me to significant risk in overprinting, warehousing fees, and hours of my precious time spent managing the process. I focus my efforts on skimming the cream of the market, the dollars that are easy to get with minimal risk.

There is no money for subcontracting. Hope you like doing layout, because you will be if you want to make money. It is extremely difficult to get a positive return on investment by paying for various book design services. It's hard enough to get a positive ROI on art, let alone on somebody who knows not to indent the first paragraph after a head. A publisher needs to be able to write, edit, and do layout at a minimum, and do these things well enough that they'll satisfy the basic standards of the market. None of it will be done as well as it would by a specialist, but the publisher will keep the money, and keeping the money is a mandatory first step to profit.

The small-pub RPG market likes small bites. The magnum opus core book is a spectacular thing, no doubt, with 600+ pages of glorious full-color abundance, but it is also fabulously expensive to print and produce. A steady stream of low-production-cost items over the course of the same time span is much more digestible to the market, and much more likely to pick up impulse buys. This is especially the case when you're offering your entire back catalog on a platform like DTRPG, where an enthusiastic whale who likes your latest product can go back and just scoop up everything else in one place.

There is money in small-pub RPGs, but it's not necessarily in the RPGs that publishers would like to print or the RPGs that the loudest customers say they'd like to see. If your goal is to make money doing this sort of thing, you have to accommodate your publishing to what the market is actually buying, and that sometimes means suffering through formats or production cost limits that are not very fun to abide. "

As an aside, I should unfollowed this Helton dude on G + or learn to ironicaly enjoy his posts.

Quote from: Spinachcat;897007BTW, the most valuable part of the ENworld post was mentioning that 2 gaming dudes need some medical help.

Charles Wright of Frog God Games
https://www.gofundme.com/29e76zrf

Loren Wiseman of Traveller fame
https://www.youcaring.com/loren-k-wiseman-495303

Yeah, that is very important. If you have enjoyed their work, you should donate ( I have).

Is it just me, or has anyone else gotten their hackles up that this Helton asshole in the article is just using these two guys who are in need of help as an anecdote to stage his desire to get money he has not earned?

Quote from: yabaziou;897010I have some thoughts on the article but now it is sadly not the time for posting it (work is waiting for me) but I have read a most excellent post from Kevin Crawford that I will shamelessly copy there :

Originally post on Enworld by Kevin Crawford :

" These are just a few observations from an RPG publisher who is earning a very livable wage from his work.

The market doesn't care. It is theoretically possible to bend the market by positioning your good as a virtue signal, as in "fair trade" coffee, but I'd put the odds of the RPG industry being able to pull of something like that at slim to none. It's also theoretically possible to bend the market by developing a personal brand that makes individual buyers more willing to pay extra because they like you, personally, but this is not a solution that generalizes to a market. Publishers are most likely to see a return on efforts made to deal with the market as they find it or to build the kind of personal branding that fuels successful Kickstarters, where it's relatively easy to price discriminate.

You write for the market. 350+ page full-color books on shiny paper are lovely things, but if the market isn't paying for them, I don't write them. There's a reason that Sine Nomine core books top out under 250 pages, and that's because I can't get paid for an extra hundred or two hundred or four hundred pages between the same covers. I can move a 200-page b/w book for $39.99 with no fuss, or $19.99 in PDF, so that's what I write. I'm experimenting with color for my next core book, and if it pays off I'll repeat it and if it doesn't I won't.

The marginal dollar is not always worth it. The vast majority of small RPG publishers are one-man shops. There is no earthly reason why these people should be trying to get into FLGS distribution. I get about $20 on a b/w hardback sold for $39.99 through DTRPG. If I tried to move that hardback through conventional retail, I'd be lucky to get 3 or 4 dollars after the distributor wet their beak and the retailer took the standard discounts. I could get a better margin if I committed to a print run, but any print run of less than 5,000 copies or so has minimal economies of scale, and small pub RPGs do not sell 5,000 paper copies as a general rule. Chasing this marginal dollar would expose me to significant risk in overprinting, warehousing fees, and hours of my precious time spent managing the process. I focus my efforts on skimming the cream of the market, the dollars that are easy to get with minimal risk.

There is no money for subcontracting. Hope you like doing layout, because you will be if you want to make money. It is extremely difficult to get a positive return on investment by paying for various book design services. It's hard enough to get a positive ROI on art, let alone on somebody who knows not to indent the first paragraph after a head. A publisher needs to be able to write, edit, and do layout at a minimum, and do these things well enough that they'll satisfy the basic standards of the market. None of it will be done as well as it would by a specialist, but the publisher will keep the money, and keeping the money is a mandatory first step to profit.

The small-pub RPG market likes small bites. The magnum opus core book is a spectacular thing, no doubt, with 600+ pages of glorious full-color abundance, but it is also fabulously expensive to print and produce. A steady stream of low-production-cost items over the course of the same time span is much more digestible to the market, and much more likely to pick up impulse buys. This is especially the case when you're offering your entire back catalog on a platform like DTRPG, where an enthusiastic whale who likes your latest product can go back and just scoop up everything else in one place.

There is money in small-pub RPGs, but it's not necessarily in the RPGs that publishers would like to print or the RPGs that the loudest customers say they'd like to see. If your goal is to make money doing this sort of thing, you have to accommodate your publishing to what the market is actually buying, and that sometimes means suffering through formats or production cost limits that are not very fun to abide. "

As an aside, I should unfollowed this Helton dude on G + or learn to ironicaly enjoy his posts.

Gimme a link to Crawford's excellent post so I can XP him!

The world doesn't owe you a living - even if you're an RPG writer. Especially if you're an RPG writer doing something because it's fun. If you're good enough you'll make money, whether your stuff is cheap & weird like Venger Satanis, or glossy and professional like Sasquatch Game Studio (Primeval Thule). If you're not good enough then you won't.

Theres been simmilar pushes over in the board gaming and game art biz.

Game designers demanding they be payed those juicy 10% royalties NOW. And then flipping their wheels when kindly told that most of the guys getting a big royalty got to that point by proving they were good designers and gradually wrangling better deals. Entry level designers are a risk and sometimes the publisher has to fisnish the game for them. One guy was all but in tears trying to convince everyone how it was the designers right to get payed top dollar right out the gate.

Another was calling for all designers to demand to be payed per word. And we pointed out that in general in gaming the goal is less. Not more. He didnt take that well either. Hell. I had a publisher try to pull that on me.

Then theres the artists demanding to be payed by the hour, rather than the quality of the work or the speed they can get a large batch of pieces done. Or done at all. They want to be payed the same as the top end artists right out the gate.

At least once a year someone shows up with another grand plan which invariably translates to "I want to be payed the same as the superstars without doing the footwork."

Also not helped by the fact so many designers have no clue as to the costs of game production. Why some Crowdfunding games fail after being funded. The designer never thought of the actual production.

I love how this guy and a few other writers are bitching about how they "deserve a living wage" even if they're living their "dream job".

What none of them want to seem to address is that our hobby is niche. It's the cold hard truth of the matter, this hobby is a place for a labor of love. Yes some people can make some good cash off of it, but those are the minority. You don't "deserve" money even if you spent an assload of your own time and cash making a product....You want to start rolling in the dough? Make the next 7th Sea, Dungeons and Dragons, or Vampire..

If you can't do that, then you need to realize you're working in a niche hobby with a saturated market. This is how supply and demand fucking works. If I think your product is worth 60 bucks I'll pay it....If I think it's not worth my time, I'm not going to buy it...I've written for the RPG industry as well, and while I do demand to be paid for my work, I also understand the reality of this hobby and made sure not to quit my day job.

This Chris Helton guy seems stuck in the past. He's talking about freelancing and print, when gaming is moving toward digital, POD, self-publishing, and crowdfunding. As Kevin Crawford says, there's money to be made as a self-publisher if you're canny.

Most of his post seems to be a whine. "Why can't I make a living doing what I love?" Well, Chris, there're lots of people in the world who have to work doing something other than what they love because doing what they love doesn't pay. The majority of musicians and artists. Semi-professional and amateur sportsmen. As Kevin Crawford points out, Mr Helton has not built up enough recognition to get the (big) money.

As for gamers being cheap, I don't accept that. I have spent an enormous amount on games. However, that has been to lots of different companies not to just one. And there's the rub, my gaming pound is being spread thinly because there is a lot of stuff out there.

I will defer to your experience on the 'always' part, but the post you linked to is steeped in Millennial-age Blue Team dog whistles. "Living wage" is the big one. "Living the dream" is another.  This is just typical wish fulfillment fantasy angry that utopia has yet to arrive. "Why do I have to be subject to market forces? Don't I DESERVE to live my part of the American Dream, like you guys promised?"

Fortunately the market always wins in cases like these, and this type of complaint is largely moot.

Quote from: S'mon;897019Gimme a link to Crawford's excellent post so I can XP him!

The world doesn't owe you a living - even if you're an RPG writer. Especially if you're an RPG writer doing something because it's fun. If you're good enough you'll make money, whether your stuff is cheap & weird like Venger Satanis, or glossy and professional like Sasquatch Game Studio (Primeval Thule). If you're not good enough then you won't.

That is a fair request so I will try to answer it : http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?3410-Why-We-Need-To-Pay-What-Games-Are-Worth-Not-What-We-Think-They-Should-Cost&page=10#comments

In the case this link is not good, Kevin Crawford's post (under the username CardinalXimenes) is on the 10th page in the comment section.

Quote from: Orphan81;897024I love how this guy and a few other writers are bitching about how they "deserve a living wage" even if they're living their "dream job".

What none of them want to seem to address is that our hobby is niche. It's the cold hard truth of the matter, this hobby is a place for a labor of love. Yes some people can make some good cash off of it, but those are the minority. You don't "deserve" money even if you spent an assload of your own time and cash making a product....You want to start rolling in the dough? Make the next 7th Sea, Dungeons and Dragons, or Vampire..

If you can't do that, then you need to realize you're working in a niche hobby with a saturated market. This is how supply and demand fucking works. If I think your product is worth 60 bucks I'll pay it....If I think it's not worth my time, I'm not going to buy it...I've written for the RPG industry as well, and while I do demand to be paid for my work, I also understand the reality of this hobby and made sure not to quit my day job.

A living wage?  I hear California just kicked the minimum wage up to $15 bucks.  They can go work at McDonalds.

The fact of the matter is, no one is entitled to your money.  We buy the products that interest us when we can afford to do so.  And aren't most RPG authors freelancers anyway?  I know some do it full time as a living, but I imagine most have a primary form of employment, and game design is more of a side show.

Nothing is stopping them from pricing shit the way they think it should be priced. If they price themselves right out of the market, that's their problem.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;897008I'm sorry; I guess I'm just stupid. I was under the impression that if somebody had something I wanted, if I offered them money they'd sell it to me. If they didn't, then they would not get my money. I don't spend a lot of money on the hobby because there is very little out there that I want; when I do find something, like the 'Temple of Set' figures from Dark Fable, then I'll spend. Otherwise, not.

Yep.  With the proviso that I will decide how MUCH money I wish to offer.  It's not that I CAN'T afford the PCRS covered hoppers at $65 each, it's that the product isn't worth $65 to me.  Obviously, since they keep producing them, they're worth the money to somebody else, so good on 'em.

Quote from: Orphan81;897024If you can't do that, then you need to realize you're working in a niche hobby with a saturated market. This is how supply and demand fucking works. If I think your product is worth 60 bucks I'll pay it....If I think it's not worth my time, I'm not going to buy it...I've written for the RPG industry as well, and while I do demand to be paid for my work, I also understand the reality of this hobby and made sure not to quit my day job.

THIS!  This this this this fucking this.

It ain't 1981 any more, boys and girls.  And it's no accident that some of the surviving old time luminaries like Jim Ward and Frank Mentzer have gotten back into gaming AFTER retirement from their job that actually supported them for the last thirty years.

NICHE HOBBY WITH A SATURATED MARKET!  DO YOU UNDERSTAND, MOTHERFUCKER?

Quote from: AaronBrown99;896974My problem is the "people deserve..." idea.

You deserve nothing. You are entitled to nothing. If you can fulfill some need, perform some service that others are willing to pay for, good for you.

But no one owes you anything. Learn that lesson, and spare the rest of us your entitled, self-indulgent whining.

Soundly worded. I'm so sick of hearing/reading about a "living wage", too. Guess what? If your "dream job" can't pay your bills and allow you to save for the future, too fucking bad. Too many people buy so much of what they don't need and go into stupid debt (how's that $80,000 Existential Gender degree helping your career, buddy?) and live beyond their means without saving, then complain that they can't get ahead.

Sickness and injury sucks, I know. Hospital bills rack up fast. Prepare, as much as you can. You can't control the universe and truly terrible, unforeseen things happen. However, you can do something more than sit on your ass whining that being mediocre in a niché hobby doesn't pay enough.

If you really want to live the dream, create something amazing and use the money and time wisely. John Harper Kickstartered Blades in the Dark and humbly thanked his backers for funding him to the point he can work on the game full-time. He's been communicating regularly, both on the KS and Google+ community and, more importantly, has released enough of the game that you can play it as intended. The book's delayed because it's grown into so much more and he's creating more great stuff than he originally planned, much of it due to player feedback. As far as I'm concerned, he's earned that money, even if it is a KS.

Look at Monte Cook. Like them or not, Numenera, The Strange and the Cypher System lines are killing it. Are they worth the hundreds of thousands he's made? It would seem so because every KS he's done has been wildly successful. This includes his family friendy, No Thank You, Evil! RPG.

Look at Modiphius? Chris Birch seems to be doing very well and his company made something that was so well-received, it allowed him to expand. Like, you know, every business ever.

The guy who wrote that article...who's name I've already forgotten...needs to sack up and create something great enough to give him a "living wage".

Or KS Exalted.

I wouldn't have even seen the article if someone hadn't drawn attention to it. Gamers will pay what gamers will pay and no blog post is going to change that. If I like a product, I will buy it. If I don't I won't. Simple as that.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;896974My problem is the "people deserve..." idea.

You deserve nothing. You are entitled to nothing. If you can fulfill some need, perform some service that others are willing to pay for, good for you.

But no one owes you anything. Learn that lesson, and spare the rest of us your entitled, self-indulgent whining.

Quoted for truth. Cuts straight to the heart of so many problems in the world.

Pretty much F that guy. I don't intend to buy any of his product, and if I find I somehow own some, there will be an olde fa-shioned book book burning a-comin.  His thoughts must not be propagated.

Quote from: Teazia;897040Pretty much F that guy. I don't intend to buy any of his product, and if I find I somehow own some, there will be an olde fa-shioned book book burning a-comin.  His thoughts must not be propagated.

If you really wanted to piss him off, scanning his books and uploading them to a fileshare would be better than burning them ;)

Quote from: yabaziou;897027That is a fair request so I will try to answer it : http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?3410-Why-We-Need-To-Pay-What-Games-Are-Worth-Not-What-We-Think-They-Should-Cost&page=10#comments

In the case this link is not good, Kevin Crawford's post (under the username CardinalXimenes) is on the 10th page in the comment section.

Got it, thanks.

As I mentioned over there, the "I deserve a living wage" is the same type of argument as "minimum wage should be a living wage" - it is a fundamental faith based 'self evident' belief that no argument with them is going to dissuade.

The 'no spec' public shamers use the same sort of arguments to attack art contests and doing any work for free. The few times they've gotten hot with me I thank them for letting me know they shouldn't be considered for future art work (and if they ask, I do tell them about how I've done work for free very specifically for promotional purposes).

Something else I mentioned there that got me a bit of XP is 'living wage where?" If I want to save money and maintain a high level of quality, I hire overseas where I can pay a living wage and get excellent work done. That certainly could leave enough left over to pay some well known artist to do you cover.

Quote from: TristramEvans;897047If you really wanted to piss him off, scanning his books and uploading them to a fileshare would be better than burning them ;)

Pardon me, but this needs to be addressed, because this arguments shows up here and there:

Let's say you hate [any given game], or its author.
Let's say you acquire the corebook & some sourcebooks and share them until you'll get your all accounts closed due to copyright infringement and/or your ass busted.

The result?

Will the sales suffer? Yes.
But here's the catch: if the game is any good, it will attract attention. If 1/10 of people who pirate it will buy it, and so it happens that plenty of pirates do that, then its author still gets money.

Effectively you will make the game and its authors more popular and I suspect you wouldn't really want that. ;)

BTW, I don't why people disliked your comment. Opinions you don't agree with are the ones worth discussing, as far as I'm concerned. :cool:

--------------

As for the topic: just because someone does some job, doesn't mean that this job and its results are actually needed and deserve to exist. I could reduce it to Gestapo and ask whether they deserve their salary, but there are plenty of contemporary examples of useless jobs. "Writer of shitty books who think himself next Hemingways" is one.

Meh.

There's a point there, in that if you insist on bargain price games, then the people making them will make less money, and they'll either have to cut corners or will exit the industry entirely.  And I've known a number of folks that have exited the industry entirely for that reason.

But people will pay what they think things are worth.  You're not entitled to more than that.  Your choices at that point are "don't make it" or "accept the lower cost".  And if you don't make it, then maybe people will realize that they've pushed the quality out of the market, and will decide that they're willing to pay for quality again.  Maybe.  Or not.

And if your professional product is competing with home-grown stuff, then well, it should be better enough that people are willing to pay more for it, right?  If people can't see a difference between your professional stuff and the hobbyist-produced stuff that someone's doing for free, then maybe you *shouldn't* get more money.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;897058Pardon me, but this needs to be addressed, because this arguments shows up here and there:

Let's say you hate [any given game], or its author.
Let's say you acquire the corebook & some sourcebooks and share them until you'll get your all accounts closed due to copyright infringement and/or your ass busted.

The result?

Will the sales suffer? Yes.
But here's the catch: if the game is any good, it will attract attention. If 1/10 of people who pirate it will buy it, and so it happens that plenty of pirates do that, then its author still gets money.

Effectively you will make the game and its authors more popular and I suspect you wouldn't really want that. ;)

My belief is mainly that people have the same amount of disposable income that they will spend, regardless of anything else. So no matter if they pirate something or not it doesn't change the amount of money going into the hobby.

QuoteBTW, I don't why people disliked your comment. Opinions you don't agree with are the ones worth discussing, as far as I'm concerned. :cool:.

Some people have very strong opinions about piracy, to the point that humour totally bypasses them even when a smiley is attached :)

Quote from: TristramEvans;897069Some people have very strong opinions about piracy, to the point that humour totally bypasses them even when a smiley is attached :)

I downvoted because it seemed stupid & vaguely immoral. If you don't X's work, ignore it and/or tell others to avoid it. Don't lure them in with free pirated versions. :)

Quote from: TristramEvans;897069My belief is mainly that people have the same amount of disposable income that they will spend, regardless of anything else. So no matter if they pirate something or not it doesn't change the amount of money going into the hobby.

I kind of like the Pay What you Want option, because it effectively lets you test drive material without pirating it, and if you like it you can simply buy it again for more than nothing.

Quote from: S'mon;897070I downvoted because it seemed stupid & vaguely immoral. If you don't X's work, ignore it and/or tell others to avoid it. Don't lure them in with free pirated versions. :)

The sci-fi writers who have experimented with tracking their work and sales on pirate sites point out there is one thing worse than being pirated. Being ignored.

Often the writer complaining about lack of sales isn't on the pirate sites, because nobody cares about their books.

Quote from: S'mon;897070I downvoted because it seemed stupid & vaguely immoral.

Confirming my suspicion

Some of you may not know this, but outside of moonlighting as an amateur hack writer, I've worked in digital advertising and online marketing for a very, very long time. Given my experience and observations, here are the three reasons why I feel tabletop RPG designers shouldn't be paid more:

1) Tabletop RPGs are difficult to teach to non-geeks, and are massive time sinks (time is money, as the old adage goes).
2) The fanbase for tabletop RPGs are not great at being social influencers outside of their own circles.
3) People who buy tabletop RPGs don't have a lot of disposable income, nor do they represent a very diverse economic market.

The sum of these three parts are a large part of the reason why tabletop RPGs aren't massive moneymakers.

For comparison, look at how successful Cards Against Humanity and other casual games have become. Those which are successful universally transcend the geek market and have a lower barrier to entry to learn and play. They are designed as "party games", are traditionally cheaper to produce, require less time investment on a person's part to teach/play and have a larger pool of incoming revenue because their fanbase is far more economically diverse.

The bottom line is that the tabletop RPG market is very niche. Game designers don't deserve to be paid more at this time because it's the state of the market. It's very much a cottage industry, even to this day - I don't see how it could realistically change anytime soon.


...and don't get me started on the pricing model for PDFs. A PDF should never cost more than 25% of a printed book, and should be free after purchasing the dead tree version. But that's for another thread all together.

Quote from: Krimson;897074I kind of like the Pay What you Want option, because it effectively lets you test drive material without pirating it, and if you like it you can simply buy it again for more than nothing.

Generally speaking I'll go out of my way to give money to any creator I like, and I game with hardcopies only; pdfs only have value to me as previews.

Quote from: TristramEvans;897083Generally speaking I'll go out of my way to give money to any creator I like, and I game with hardcopies only; pdfs only have value to me as previews.

I have a really awesome tablet (http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_tab_s_10_5_lte-6235.php) which I use for PDFs but I still like having hard copies of game books when possible.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;896974My problem is the "people deserve..." idea.

You deserve nothing. You are entitled to nothing. If you can fulfill some need, perform some service that others are willing to pay for, good for you.

But no one owes you anything. Learn that lesson, and spare the rest of us your entitled, self-indulgent whining.

I wish I could hand you a mic to drop. *claps fervently*

Quote from: Lynn;897056The 'no spec' public shamers use the same sort of arguments to attack art contests and doing any work for free. The few times they've gotten hot with me I thank them for letting me know they shouldn't be considered for future art work (and if they ask, I do tell them about how I've done work for free very specifically for promotional purposes).

Yeah over on BGG they get pretty stringent about "no spec" now and then. Even for free PNP games?!?

I haven't read the original article yet, but starting to see this conversation play out on social media.

I do believe in a good minimum wage for regular jobs, but I also think those are different than a creative or niche field, where you have a lot of hobbyists contributing content. That changes the equation somewhat. Especially since many people are self-publishers basically writing their own paycheck, so it becomes a question of how much time they are willing to put into something knowing they might not make back all that effort in cash. That said, I don't begrudge a company that wants to try setting higher prices if that helps them make back what they are putting in in time and labor.

In terms of freelance writing, this is just not a good field to get into to make a living. I wrote outside this industry and you can earn a living wage doing things like writing for local papers, contributing to magazines,etc. But anytime you take a chance on something more creative like writing a novel, writing short stories, or writing RPGs, the reliability of a good income goes way down. Some people succeed and earn a full living, but it is rare (just like most musicians have a day job). Still a lot of people stick with it because they love that kind of writing so much.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;897091I haven't read the original article yet, but starting to see this conversation play out on social media.

I do believe in a good minimum wage for regular jobs, but I also think those are different than a creative or niche field, where you have a lot of hobbyists contributing content. That changes the equation somewhat. Especially since many people are self-publishers basically writing their own paycheck, so it becomes a question of how much time they are willing to put into something knowing they might not make back all that effort in cash. That said, I don't begrudge a company that wants to try setting higher prices if that helps them make back what they are putting in in time and labor.

In terms of freelance writing, this is just not a good field to get into to make a living. I wrote outside this industry and you can earn a living wage doing things like writing for local papers, contributing to magazines,etc. But anytime you take a chance on something more creative like writing a novel, writing short stories, or writing RPGs, the reliability of a good income goes way down. Some people succeed and earn a full living, but it is rare (just like most musicians have a day job). Still a lot of people stick with it because they love that kind of writing so much.

This guy does't actually want to write at all, he wants to be paid a "living wage" on top of paying other people to write, illustrate and publish his games for him.

Quote from: Omega;897087Yeah over on BGG they get pretty stringent about "no spec" now and then. Even for free PNP games?!?

It is the same muddled story where if you aren't being paid a living wage by UK or US standards for everything that drops off your pen you are being exploited. They shame art contests as exploiting young artists that somehow demeans the value of all art, all because of their frustration on a really cut-throat freelance market.

The world would be a much better place if everyone had even a rudimentary understanding of economics.

Quote from: Piestrio;897101The world would be a much better place if everyone had even a rudimentary understanding of economics.

Apropos of nothing, and totally off topic:  I wish it were taught in schools as part of a mandatory course load.  There's so much most people don't know.

Quote from: Piestrio;897101The world would be a much better place if everyone had even a rudimentary understanding of economics.

It saddens me that Economics, Personal Finance, Home Economics and penmanship are no longer taught. For all the life skills that kids are supposed to be learning now because they aren't being taught them by their parents, there sure are a lot of useful ones that have been removed from curricula.

Thomas Sowell to the rescue (http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Economics-Common-Sense-Economy/dp/0465002609).

I can't help you with the penmanship, I'm afraid.

The article doesn't excite me too much. I feel like I'm missing the point. I mean...

"Why we need to pay what games are worth?"

How is it from the sellers/producers perspective that an RPG product could be worth more than it sells for? I just don't see it.

If you're dropping $ into a product and your sell point doesn't make up the difference it means your game is worth the debt you owe. Such is reality.

This guy needs a hand full of pennies and a well to stand over.

Quote from: Lynn;897118It saddens me that Economics, Personal Finance, Home Economics and penmanship are no longer taught. For all the life skills that kids are supposed to be learning now because they aren't being taught them by their parents, there sure are a lot of useful ones that have been removed from curricula.

It was taught when I was in high school. When did it get pulled and for what?

Sorry, I couldn't quite read the article to its conclusion. It tripped my circuit-breaker's by exceeding the bullshit limit pretty early on. I threw in the towel when it said people use "dream job" to devalue the work. The notion itself is so pregnant with fallacies that it's impossible to even discuss the central point of the article in any meaningful way.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;897126It was taught when I was in high school. When did it get pulled and for what?

These days if its not on the SATs, chances are they dont bother with it. I know mine was the last class to have the option of taking Latin for a language credit.

Quote from: TristramEvans;897069My belief is mainly that people have the same amount of disposable income that they will spend, regardless of anything else. So no matter if they pirate something or not it doesn't change the amount of money going into the hobby.

No hobby is a monolithic entity. The more money, the more power for certain people to dictate "how things should be done". So, the problem of "who" isn't irrelevant, I think. ;)

Quote from: TristramEvans;897069Some people have very strong opinions about piracy, to the point that humour totally bypasses them even when a smiley is attached :)

...I feel they should address you and explain which part of your statement they have problem with, then. Shouting "you suck!" from the back row has zero impact - it won't change a thing and in fact might strengthen your beliefs, since "if they fight me, I may be on the right track" ;)

Quote from: Krimson;897085I have a really awesome tablet which I use for PDFs

Out of curiosity, do you own some WH40k RPG PDFs? Dark Heresy, Only War, Rogue Trader, etc? How fast does this tablet of yours render them? How long does it lag between switching pages in comparison to, say, simple B&W PDFs?

Our hobby would be perfectly healthy if no one ever felt they were willing to pay a dime for another product for the rest of the history of the universe. Table top rpg's were always designed to involve a flexible, change-it-as-you-will rules set and a few examples to get you started, and then you take it from there to create your own content and rules variants. And this do-it-yourself ethos attracts people who are creative and prefer doing things their own way. Plus now anyone with access to the most basic PC resources can create acceptable versions of their games and settings and distribute them for almost nothing. Where is the need for a caste of professionals? I'm personally perfectly happy to pay someone for a cool product I'll enjoy. I'll even pay a lot for the right thing. But the default condition of the hobby is free, home-cooked goodness.

Even thought the writer is either acting like or effectively a mo-ron, he has succeeded rather magnificently of lining the pockets of ENWorld with click and sideways shaming people into supporting the ENWorld Patreon.  Either he is trolling for green (smart) or an irredeemably........ (fill in the blank).  Either way his boss is probably pretty happy.

Last I checked the comments, I found it saddening no one seems to be referencing or even replying to Kevin Crawford's post... But then, he basically just BTFO them all, so of course they have to ignore it completely.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;897139...I feel they should address you and explain which part of your statement they have problem with, then. Shouting "you suck!" from the back row has zero impact - it won't change a thing and in fact might strengthen your beliefs, since "if they fight me, I may be on the right track" ;)

That is a drawback to Reputation/voting systems on forums. It cuts down +1 style posting but it can reduce discussion.

Quote from: Nexus;897145That is a drawback to Reputation/voting systems on forums. It cuts down +1 style posting but it can reduce discussion.

Yeah.

Unfortunately, there's no perfect solution, no system everyone would agree to and use "as intended" when more than a single person is involved.
Funny thing is that once taken away, it turns out to be a feature highly missed by a lot of people. I've seen forums go down because users revolted because their owners decided to change some tiny feature (like a color of inline images border's). :rolleyes:

Quote from: Tod13;897075The sci-fi writers who have experimented with tracking their work and sales on pirate sites point out there is one thing worse than being pirated. Being ignored.

Often the writer complaining about lack of sales isn't on the pirate sites, because nobody cares about their books.

It seemed to work pretty well for Eclipse Phase.  Drop the book on the torrent sites, people look at it, and then turn around and support the product with their dollars because they not only like it, but want to see more of the same.

I'd swear another game company did the same, but I can't be sure.  Truth be told, since it's really difficult to flip through a game book online like you can in a store (assuming it isn't sealed in plastic which is annoying), it seems like a fairly useful tool for promotion.  People are going to pirate your shit anyway, but by putting it out there yourself, you're saying "We think this is so awesome that you'll pay for it anyway".  Might not work all the time, but I've certainly nabbed a new book for something and though it was so good that I went out and bought it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;897117Apropos of nothing, and totally off topic:  I wish it were taught in schools as part of a mandatory course load.  There's so much most people don't know.

It is a government school. Government has a vested interest in the peons not understanding economics (or most things). And, economics is, in fact, required in most/all US schools. Check out "The Underground History of American Education" for details. https://archive.org/details/TheUndergroundHistoryOfAmericanEducation_758

I know Chris Helton, we've corresponded frequently and met up to play a game when I was in Vegas. He's a cool guy, super smart and passionate about this industry. I appreciate the ferver; I also do not believe game designers are entitled to anything. As someone bitten by the Entrepreneur bug, and someone who believes in capitalism, I think the burden of "higher wages" for a business owner falls squarely in the "improve profits, cut costs" paradigm. However, don't mix up an article with the character of the person. A columnist is supposed to look at their "wheelhouse" and inspire discussion. Chris is good people. Don't toss the baby out with the bathwater. I too disagree with the ideas as presented, however I still believe Chris is a good guy. :-D

Quote from: trechriron;897197I know Chris Helton, we've corresponded frequently and met up to play a game when I was in Vegas. He's a cool guy, super smart and passionate about this industry. I appreciate the ferver; I also do not believe game designers are entitled to anything. As someone bitten by the Entrepreneur bug, and someone who believes in capitalism, I think the burden of "higher wages" for a business owner falls squarely in the "improve profits, cut costs" paradigm. However, don't mix up an article with the character of the person. A columnist is supposed to look at their "wheelhouse" and inspire discussion. Chris is good people. Don't toss the baby out with the bathwater. I too disagree with the ideas as presented, however I still believe Chris is a good guy. :-D

He just showed an overly self-entitlement attitude with that post, we don't know him personally.  How else are we supposed to take him?

Quote from: trechriron;897197I know Chris Helton ...

The article is the only time I have heard of them, can't say it makes me want to read more of their stuff.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;897126It was taught when I was in high school. When did it get pulled and for what?

I am not sure why or exactly when - and your mileage may vary since school curriculum goals are decided at the state level in a scope & sequence. It was still around in the later 80's when I was a teacher, but long gone by the time my kid when to high school.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;897201He just showed an overly self-entitlement attitude with that post, we don't know him personally.  How else are we supposed to take him?

Yes, I have to agree with this.

He's championed a specific viewpoint in this article - that is in fact, what the article is entirely about. He isn't reporting it, he believes it. That wouldn't stop me from chatting with him or buying his game stuff if I thought it provided enough value to me for the price. I don't think anyone is saying he's an "XXX" (ie the same tactics that SJWs use to discredit people that do not agree with them). Just that he's clueless about how business really works.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;897152It seemed to work pretty well for Eclipse Phase.  Drop the book on the torrent sites, people look at it, and then turn around and support the product with their dollars because they not only like it, but want to see more of the same.

The problem with this is that we don't know the extent by which they tested this, to what extent it has been verified by follow up study, and if it applies more to what kind of works and price points of the actual commercial product.

Quote from: RPGPundit;896929Why is it that semi-competent assholes in the gaming industry always end up hiding in one of two demands: either that everyone start paying more for their products, or that we somehow reduce the number of people writing competing products?

Its been hard for the RPG hobby to adapt to a near post scarcity environment. Ignoring piracy for a second , I could very easily give nearly everyone on planet Earth an copy of any number of free and legal RPG's many of them high quality for not a lot more effort than  saying "Tea Earl Grey, hot" . This is a big deal and it  raises the bar considerably for new entrants.

When many of the designers came into gaming , you know back in the day  even bush league games like say Talislanta that built a following could make a modest living in the game business.

Note here  (http://talislanta.com/?page_id=457)

QuoteFrankly, I don't know how anyone can afford to put out pen & paper RPGs these days. From what I hear, sales for small games average about 20% of what they were back in the mid-late 1980's. For example, I was able to get advance orders of about 1800-2000 copies for each of the main Talislanta books. Many small game companies are lucky if they can sell 200 advance copies. That's pretty tough. But if you're someone who loves creating games, and you can afford the time and expense involved, it's still a pretty cool thing to do.

 After the PDF  revolution, the changes of the economy (its smaller than in the 80's)  , the "entertainment ecology" (more stuff to do instead of D&D)  cultural  demography (US Literacy levels are much  lower in several states) gaming got hammered.

These guys are just going to have to adapt and understand to  make it work you need a long tail fan base and very regular releases and even than you may only get a few years from it.

I get the impression that too many game designers think of the RPG business of the 80's as the default baseline, rather than the overinflated bubble that it actually was.  Where we're at now - a cottage industry with one or two corporate players large enough to afford full-time staff - is probably the sustainable state.

This is not a problem of the gaming culture or the gaming industry. It is a problem of the economy. Simply put, there are jobs that are vital and necessary to the health of society that the free market does not value sufficiently to provide those who perform them with a suitable living; the arts are no less vital, but they are especially hard hit by this economic truth.

We're not going to get anywhere with this problem by trying to "fix" the gaming industry. If we're going to solve this problem, we're going to have to change the nature of the economy.

Quote from: daniel_ream;897215I get the impression that too many game designers think of the RPG business of the 80's as the default baseline, rather than the overinflated bubble that it actually was.  Where we're at now - a cottage industry with one or two corporate players large enough to afford full-time staff - is probably the sustainable state.

Until the game changes. For instance, Wolflair and Smiteworks (Hero Lab/Realm Works and Fantasy Grounds respectively) don't produce any of their own material... sort of. But they are gaming companies nonetheless. Both are small but successful and good at what they do. As technology improves I suspect Virtual Tabletops will as well. Should the technology get to the point where the learning curve makes them appealing to casual users then you might see a change in the market as games move to a digital format. Heck, I expect some interesting times when Fantasy Grounds moves to Unity and can be run on any platform.

An RPer I know in Second Life and I were talking about even making apps like the old Fighting Fantasy books or even the older Choose Your Own Adventure books. It's easy enough to hide game mechanics for the casual player, so that they can spend less time worrying about numbers and more time just enjoying the story. I guess this wouldn't be too dissimilar to Visual Novels with multiple storylines though it would be neat to have something like that where you could have a persistent character that can go from story to story and even play collaboratively with others online.

Certainly there are those who will swear up and down their loyalty to print books. I still prefer my game books that way, but just because I'm a middle aged guy with set preferences doesn't mean that the market will stay that way. Grognards aren't going to live forever and barring some global disaster that kills our technology, games are going to continue to evolve and change.

Quote from: Krimson;897219Until the game changes. For instance, Wolflair and Smiteworks (Hero Lab/Realm Works and Fantasy Grounds respectively) don't produce any of their own material... sort of. But they are gaming companies nonetheless. Both are small but successful and good at what they do. As technology improves I suspect Virtual Tabletops will as well. Should the technology get to the point where the learning curve makes them appealing to casual users then you might see a change in the market as games move to a digital format. Heck, I expect some interesting times when Fantasy Grounds moves to Unity and can be run on any platform.

They sell their services and products to the RPG playing target customer but they are not game publishing companies themselves. The business model is quite different. The resources they have are quite different (meaning also, they can utilize their resources in ways that game publishing companies cannot).

Who the fuck cares.

Quote from: Orphan81;897144Last I checked the comments, I found it saddening no one seems to be referencing or even replying to Kevin Crawford's post... But then, he basically just BTFO them all, so of course they have to ignore it completely.

They are, it's just that most people agree with him.:)

I am among those who tried to complete the column, but couldn't because the finger wagging got a bit too much for me. If someone wants an outlet for their indignation about the RPG buying public, by all means, read that column. If you want to learn a model that can be used to attempt to make a living off making and publishing RPGs listen to the guys like Crawford and Raggi when they open up about their experiences.

Quote from: 5 Stone Games;897214Its been hard for the RPG hobby to adapt to a near post scarcity environment. Ignoring piracy for a second , I could very easily give nearly everyone on planet Earth an copy of any number of free and legal RPG's many of them high quality for not a lot more effort than  saying "Tea Earl Grey, hot" .

Bolding mine.

Just because there is a lot of easily accessible crap out there does not mean it is not, well, crap or something that totally disinterests you. I'm on Reddit, I like SFRPGs, and the Reddit darling of those is a thing called "Lasers and Feelings" - it isn't a game to me, at best it is a temporary time waster no more complicated than chess.

Quote from: Piestrio;897101The world would be a much better place if everyone had even a rudimentary understanding of economics.

Wouldn't help a single bit.  This is the era of ill-formed, knee-jerk, simplistic opinions, in which the standard slur for someone who puts more thought into a topic than can be expressed in a single sentence gets the "elitist" slur thrown at him.  To quote J. Mitchell Morse's eternally apt phrase, we turn off our minds for the same reason we turn out our lights at night: we want to sleep in darkness.

Quote from: jeff37923;897231Bolding mine.

Just because there is a lot of easily accessible crap out there does not mean it is not, well, crap or something that totally disinterests you. I'm on Reddit, I like SFRPGs, and the Reddit darling of those is a thing called "Lasers and Feelings" - it isn't a game to me, at best it is a temporary time waster no more complicated than chess.

Just because there's truckolads of shit, doesn't invalidate the argument. While it's true that the Internet is no stranger to "behold, here's my 1 page masterpiece" along the lines of "Teh clawring Crabe's", or "Cars Lesbians", it's also true that you might easily find games like these (http://www.slant.co/topics/2163/~free-tabletop-rpg) and more - JAGS, SW d6, Mass Effect, Final Fantasy... (Let's not discuss whether you like them, they are games and they are of at least good quality).

Unlike most of you, I really sympathize with Christopher Helton's plight. Lately I've really been enjoying napping. One might even say it's my current dream job. Why oh, why won't someone pay me a living wage for napping?

Here's a comment by the author, Chris Helton.

QuoteThere really is no "one size fits all" answer for consumers. I don't buy a lot of games because 1) as a reviewer I get a lot of stuff and 2) the things that I buy I buy to use. I used $60 as an example, because that is what I paid for the Cypher System core book at Gen Con. I've also paid $40+ each for a couple of supplements for The Strange. Was it hard to make the decision? Yes, but their books are definitely some of the best made in RPGs currently, and if you want well-made books (and I certainly do) you pay for that quality.

If I want less pricey stuff, there is a lot of really interesting material being produced by the OSR that is done via POD on Lulu.com or RPGNow that I can get for a lower price point than the MCG stuff.

So the guy who mostly doesn't buy many games because he gets them for free wants the rest of us, who don't get games for free, to pay more for games....Righhhhttt. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Orphan81;897144Last I checked the comments, I found it saddening no one seems to be referencing or even replying to Kevin Crawford's post... But then, he basically just BTFO them all, so of course they have to ignore it completely.

A few people have referenced and replied to it. Most people in the thread, though, aren't reading the whole thing.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;897201He just showed an overly self-entitlement attitude with that post, we don't know him personally.  How else are we supposed to take him?

Quote from: dragoner;897203The article is the only time I have heard of them, can't say it makes me want to read more of their stuff.

I'm simply responding to some comments about him being an "asshat", etc. Sure, many here feel he's off-base on this opinion, but he's a thoughtful writer, and passionate. Just putting it out there that I believe he's a good guy with some misplaced ideas on how (this) industry works. I imagine if he was willing and would engage this forum in debate, he would be put off with the name-calling but would be open to thoughtful counter-points.

--------------
And now a rant. *ahem*

I believe the roots of this problem start in our education system and the level of engagement we have with our children as a society. In our desperate attempt to shower the younglings in love (which I feel is important) we forgot to forge them in strength. We aren't challenging them. We are not teaching them success principles. Our education system is clearly designed to create good worker-bees and robots, not self-reliant entrepreneurs or pioneers. That is obviously generalizing, but I have to believe that people's perceptions are skewed. It's like the old circus trick they used raising elephants. At first the rope around one leg in a stake in the ground kept the little fella in place; the little guy actually was NOT strong enough to escape it. By the time that elephant grows up, they are more than capable of walking right away (rope, stake, tent and all!). But they don't. They simply believe the rope and stake are stronger than them, because during the impressionable years, they tried and tried and could not escape. They don't know any better. The level was set and they will stay on that level till the end (most of the time...).

I also blame Dale Carnegie. You can find shitty advice FROM some of the masters. Advice that no longer applies. Take "How to Win Friends and Influence People". A hallmark of the success crowd for many years as I came up in DECCA and Jr. Achievement. I actually won a scholarship to the Dale Carnegie Success Course (or some such...) as a youngster. But the basic principle of that book was simply "be nice and warm to people so they think you like them. If they believe it, you're good." These days, that shit doesn't fly anymore. Everyone can see the used-car salesman coming a mile away. We know all the bullshit lines and the charlatans and showman have an increasingly harder time pulling the wool over our eyes.

Instead what gets us is the actual demonstration of awesome. I didn't buy my Ford Escape because the commercial was cute. I drove it, hooked up my phone, punched it merging on the freeway, and took a few to get a feel for the car. I read reviews. I had a good idea of how much I liked the car before I went in and then driving it sealed the deal for me. The salesperson had fuck-all to do during that transaction except the paperwork. We don't need the song and dance. We need the results. Show us the fucking money. Show us what you got. What are you bringing? Don't sugar-coat it in your PC unicorn-hugging bullshit, just spit it out. If your shit is awesome, I'm in. If it fucking sucks, I'm out.

Look, it's simple. People buy stuff they want. Period. If they don't want your shit, it's not good enough.

Stop feeling sorry for yourself, pull your big-kid pants up and make something else!! It's not a market problem. It's not a customer problem.

It's a patience and grit problem.

WARRIOR UP and stop pissing on your shoes.

Love,

Quote from: Bren;897240Unlike most of you, I really sympathize with Christopher Helton's plight. Lately I've really been enjoying napping. One might even say it's my current dream job. Why oh, why won't someone pay me a living wage for napping?

You should have been in touch with NASA long ago. :D

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/need-some-time-off-your-feet-nasa-paying-volunteers-18k-to-lie-in-bed-for-70-days/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/need-some-time-off-your-feet-nasa-paying-volunteers-18k-to-lie-in-bed-for-70-days/)

Quote from: Bren;897240Unlike most of you, I really sympathize with Christopher Helton's plight. Lately I've really been enjoying napping. One might even say it's my current dream job. Why oh, why won't someone pay me a living wage for napping?

LOL!  That is a nice way of summing up my thoughts on the article too. :)   There are some seriously ridiculous claims being made in that thread about living wages.

Quote from: Brand55;897263You should have been in touch with NASA long ago. :D

Definitely a lost opportunity.

Quote from: trechriron;897260I'm simply responding to some comments about him being an "asshat", etc. Sure, many here feel he's off-base on this opinion, but he's a thoughtful writer, and passionate. Just putting it out there that I believe he's a good guy with some misplaced ideas on how (this) industry works. I imagine if he was willing and would engage this forum in debate, he would be put off with the name-calling but would be open to thoughtful counter-points.

Just to note, I didn't call him that, or any name. If I have to read this in every group and forum, I might. :p

Otherwise I would have much to say other than, "charge more, see how that works out for you" or "you can hire a professional to do a price point calculation for about $600", because that is about what I would charge.

I do agree with your rant tho', it's about the same story in writer's forums: "the readers suck!" Uh, no, it's probably not them sucking, it's what you wrote.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;896952Some of them even want you to pay them before they've written anything.

A painful lesson. But once learned, never forgotten.

Quote from: Brand55;897263You should have been in touch with NASA long ago. :D

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/need-some-time-off-your-feet-nasa-paying-volunteers-18k-to-lie-in-bed-for-70-days/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/need-some-time-off-your-feet-nasa-paying-volunteers-18k-to-lie-in-bed-for-70-days/)

Mother of God.

That sounds horrible.

I think there is a significant part of the RPG fanbase that has a difficult time accepting that the quality they want in their RPG books requires a certain cost. And that's true whether it's a $60 full-color hardcover or a $20 black-and-white softback, although in either case it seems to come primarily from people who feel like they're owed full-color hardcovers with luscious illustrations at prices that can't possibly pay for those things.

(These discussions also tend to prompt people to say, "I'd be buying a lot more RPG books if they were $20 black-and-white softcovers!" But the truth is a lot of those books are published each year. And -- spoilers! -- they don't sell as well as the $60 full-color deals.)

I'll also note that the post isn't calling for "price controls" (contrary to Pundie's initial post here). It's trying to make readers understand why their full-color hardcovers cost $60 and asking them to pay for the quality that they want.

His basic point is pretty much unassailable: That's what things cost, folks. Claiming that he's "entitled" for making factual statements just makes you look like a dumbass. (It particularly makes you look like a dumbass when you're the author of a full-color rulebook selling for nearly $60. Yeah, Pundie, I'm looking at you.)

It's also true that his article isn't very well written. (The biggest thing that jumps out at me is that he takes Pramas' comment about a $25,000 cost for a print run without any reference to the number of copies in that print run and tries to draw the conclusion that Pramas must be finding the money for art, writing, editing, etc. somewhere other than selling the books. The reality is almost certainly that the base KS goal is paying for a print run much larger than the KS and that the "rest of the money" is coming from selling those books through traditional retail channels.)

The ironic thing here is this thread filled with people who claim that a guy saying "this is what books cost when you pay for art and writing and printing" is entitled (despite the fact that his job isn't doing any of those things) when the only people showing entitlement are in fact the whiny posters demanding that people create material for them without being paid a living wage to do it. Nothing guarantees that a game designer or anybody else should be able to succeed at their chosen career, but that doesn't entitle your whiny demands that they service your needs on the cheap.

My impression was not that people think they are entitled to generally get games for a low price. This is a strawman of the seller side I think.

The points made by the customers as I recognize it are:
> If I am to pay for a game it must contain a value for me, that makes me think it is worth its price.
> This can be limited for many by the total amount free for leisure items.  
> Some of of the customers say also: and this value is not primarily in a nice packaging.

Quote from: trechriron;897260These days, that shit doesn't fly anymore. Everyone can see the used-car salesman coming a mile away. We know all the bullshit lines and the charlatans and showman have an increasingly harder time pulling the wool over our eyes.

Wish I could agree with you, but nope.  Heck, anyone who's seen a political headline (and not just in America) in the last six months knows otherwise: right now, a plurality of the voters in the Republican Party thinks that Donald Trump is fit to be the President of the United States.  'Nuff said.

Quote from: Ravenswing;897309Wish I could agree with you, but nope.  Heck, anyone who's seen a political headline (and not just in America) in the last six months knows otherwise: right now, a plurality of the voters in the Republican Party thinks that Donald Trump is fit to be the President of the United States.  'Nuff said.

Which proves the original claim.

They probably not know what he is up to, but they recognize the old cheaters in the political estabilshment and learn to avoid them.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;897301(These discussions also tend to prompt people to say, "I'd be buying a lot more RPG books if they were $20 black-and-white softcovers!" But the truth is a lot of those books are published each year. And -- spoilers! -- they don't sell as well as the $60 full-color deals.)

Except that isn't a fair comparison at all. It's not as if there's a cheaper version of the D&D Player's Guide available so we can compare its sales numbers to the hardcover, full-color version. So the only comparisons you get are sales numbers between the shiny products from the biggest companies and the cheaper stuff from independent producers.

A more fair, yet still far from perfect, comparison could be made between POD sales of different books on sites like DTRPG or RPGNow that offer both cheap B&W softcover versions alongside premium hardcover editions. I haven't seen any such sales data, though, and even then it would be somewhat skewed since such sites would be almost entirely frequented by the most hardcore fans, the ones most likely to pony up for nicer books.

At the end of the day, though, this is a hobby and plenty of people will still happily shell out the cash for extra features like better art and a hardcover when it comes to their gaming books.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;897301The ironic thing here is this thread filled with people who claim that a guy saying "this is what books cost when you pay for art and writing and printing" is entitled (despite the fact that his job isn't doing any of those things) when the only people showing entitlement are in fact the whiny posters demanding that people create material for them without being paid a living wage to do it. Nothing guarantees that a game designer or anybody else should be able to succeed at their chosen career, but that doesn't entitle your whiny demands that they service your needs on the cheap.

Emphasis mine. No one is calling him entitled for pointing out the costs of producing books. We're calling him entitled for demanding that people be able to make a living no matter what they do. That flies in the face of what you just said, so I'm not sure why you're taking his side on this.

Also, I haven't seen any "whiny" demands from anyone here that we get everything cheaply. I've got thousands of dollars sunk into the gaming books on my shelf, and I'd bet I don't even have nearly the biggest collection of anyone here. But I can easily see both sides as I've got $60 FFG books resting next to an entire Basic Fantasy RPG collection that cost me about $20 because those guys are awesome. There are plenty of gamers out there who can't afford the cost of the top-end gaming books these days, so it's a pretty good thing that not every game has gone to hardcover and full-color art.

Quote from: Maarzan;897312Which proves the original claim.

They probably not know what he is up to, but they recognize the old cheaters in the political estabilshment and learn to avoid them.

Go Go Go Team Chaos!  Trump AND Bernie! Creative destruction in real time.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;897301the only people showing entitlement are in fact the whiny posters demanding that people create material for them without being paid a living wage to do it.

I didn't see any demands in the thread, just people saying he's not entitled to be paid any particular amount. In particular that he's not entitled to be paid a living wage for his 'dream job'. I find it pretty weird how people expect they can just decide to be RPG designers and have people give them enough money to live on, as opposed to doing it as a hobby supplementing their real job. Even the top WoTC people earn incredibly low wages at their 'dream job'. For 99% of people you need a living-wage job first, do the fun thing in your spare time. There's the idea that this is a terrible and unjust state of affairs. I'm not seeing it. If it's unfair, well nearly everyone on the planet is in the same boat.

Quote from: S'mon;897323I didn't see any demands in the thread, just people saying he's not entitled to be paid any particular amount. In particular that he's not entitled to be paid a living wage for his 'dream job'. I find it pretty weird how people expect they can just decide to be RPG designers and have people give them enough money to live on, as opposed to doing it as a hobby supplementing their real job. Even the top WoTC people earn incredibly low wages at their 'dream job'. For 99% of people you need a living-wage job first, do the fun thing in your spare time. There's the idea that this is a terrible and unjust state of affairs. I'm not seeing it. If it's unfair, well nearly everyone on the planet is in the same boat.

A quick drive around the shanty towns of Manila or any non-affluent country (or even parts of the USA/EU) would very quickly clear up that notion for them.

Quote from: Ravenswing;897309Wish I could agree with you, but nope.  Heck, anyone who's seen a political headline (and not just in America) in the last six months knows otherwise: right now, a plurality of the voters in the Republican Party thinks that Donald Trump is fit to be the President of the United States.  'Nuff said.

That's still not that much. I mean yes, it's a lot of people in raw numbers, but I don't believe it reflects the country.
26% of Americans identify as Republicans. Judging from the turn-out of previous elections, about 15 to 30% of each state's population actually bothers to come out and vote during the primary (this rises to a little more than half during the general), so far less than that 26% has likely turned out so far. Then you have to keep in mind that many of that diminished percentage voted for other Republican candidates.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;897301I'll also note that the post isn't calling for "price controls" (contrary to Pundie's initial post here). It's trying to make readers understand why their full-color hardcovers cost $60 and asking them to pay for the quality that they want.

His basic point is pretty much unassailable: That's what things cost, folks. Claiming that he's "entitled" for making factual statements just makes you look like a dumbass. (It particularly makes you look like a dumbass when you're the author of a full-color rulebook selling for nearly $60. Yeah, Pundie, I'm looking at you.)

The comments Pundit made do fit the article.  The author said people deserve to be paid a living wage, basically no matter what job they do. That is "price controls". (and entitlement)  

He also said he deserves to be paid for "living the dream".  that is "entitled".

What he deserves, is to make money for his products if customers value his products more than his cost of making them. Whether that will equal a "living wage" or not will depend on how good he is at working with the formula I just spelled out. The same goes for anyone selling products or labor.

QuotePeople deserve to be paid a living wage, whether they are flipping burgers, waiting tables or living out their dreams by writing tabletop games. People doing their "dream job" is often used to devalue the work, and it is work, that they do for games. People should be paid fairly and given adequate compensation for their time, effort and work. Just because someone is "living the dream," it doesn't mean that their work has less value. This is something that we need to remember.

Quote from: Nexus;897145That is a drawback to Reputation/voting systems on forums. It cuts down +1 style posting but it can reduce discussion.

The best setup I've seen is one that only allows for upvoting. I feel like posting something like "I agree!" "Me too", etc is superfluous. Sometimes a +1 is just a way of saying those things without cluttering the discussion.

Chris is missing the important distinction between being a professional author and a game designer. A game designer is one corner of being a professional author (or anything else); it's something you do as part of a bigger spectrum, unless you work for WotC, FFE, GW or maybe one other publisher....and even then you most likely are still working other jobs, doing a range of freelance work....and if you're smart, you are aiming for "professional author" which means you should have lots of other work in the pipes, and gaming jobs are just a small percentage of jobs you pick more for love of the hobby than the low wage options.

Of course, the reality is that most professional authors like making good money, so they stick to more lucrative markets outside of gaming...and most game writers are terrible authors outside of designing games. At that point, it's better to find a decent job and turn game design into that nighttime hobby you do on the side that is also cool because it makes a little extra cash for you.

Chris is an odd duck, though. His articles at Enworld suggest to me that he has that weird sort of entitled millennial investment in the hobby.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;897301His basic point is pretty much unassailable: That's what things cost, folks. Claiming that he's "entitled" for making factual statements just makes you look like a dumbass.

You know what makes you really look like a dumbass is not reading the article you are commenting on.

Now let's look at the section that people refer to when saying that Chris is "entitled."

QuotePeople deserve to be paid a living wage, whether they are flipping burgers, waiting tables or living out their dreams by writing tabletop games. People doing their "dream job" is often used to devalue the work, and it is work, that they do for games. People should be paid fairly and given adequate compensation for their time, effort and work. Just because someone is "living the dream," it doesn't mean that their work has less value. This is something that we need to remember.

Now let's change two words to see how people conclude Chris feels or thinks he is entitled.

QuotePeople [strike]deserve[/strike] are entitled to be paid a living wage, whether they are flipping burgers, waiting tables or living out their dreams by writing tabletop games. People doing their "dream job" is often used to devalue the work, and it is work, that they do for games. People [strike]should[/strike] are entitled to be paid fairly and given adequate compensation for their time, effort and work. Just because someone is "living the dream," it doesn't mean that their work has less value. This is something that we need to remember.

Obviously the two paragraphs read very much the same because "deserve" and "should" have similar meanings and connotations to the phrase "are entitled."

In addition to feeling entitled, Chris also failed micro economics. (The two may not be unrelated.)

QuoteWhy We Need To Pay What Games Are Worth, Not What We Think They Should Cost.

Chris thinks that if people knew how much games cost, they'd be willing to pay more for the games. That idea is based on a fundamental confusion between value and cost.

• What games cost is one number. Cost of a game can be computed based on what the game cost to create, produce, distribute, and sell.

• What games are worth, i.e. their value, is what people are willing to pay for them. That's a different number.

If people are willing to pay more than what the item costs, then creating, producing, distributing, and selling that item is a reasonable economic decision for the supplier. If the cost is more than what people are willing to pay, then creating, producing, distributing, and selling that item is an unreasonable, i.e. a dumb decision for the supplier. Chris has made a dumb economic decision and he blames his failure on his customers instead of on his inability or unwillingness to recognize that stuff, like RPGs, is worth what people are willing to pay and no more.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;897364The best setup I've seen is one that only allows for upvoting. I feel like posting something like "I agree!" "Me too", etc is superfluous. Sometimes a +1 is just a way of saying those things without cluttering the discussion.

I agree, those fora running with just upvoting have been more fruitful in my eyes. I find the voting overall unnecessary popularity reindeer games at worst, and generally drip feed micro-validations to train users to check more often. But if you're going to have it make it less involved, let alone acrimonious. It's going to bleed "tangency" bullshit feuds into vote proxy wars all over the site now, mark my words...

Quote from: jeff37923;897231Bolding mine.

Just because there is a lot of easily accessible crap out there does not mean it is not, well, crap or something that totally disinterests you. I'm on Reddit, I like SFRPGs, and the Reddit darling of those is a thing called "Lasers and Feelings" - it isn't a game to me, at best it is a temporary time waster no more complicated than chess.

Ya. I gfeel you there.

I've made up ad-hoc games more complex than Lasers and Feelings, heck we used to do this every other week. I wrote an entire game with far more in depth rules in a few hours from a  literal dream.

That said  Labyrinth Lord, Pathfinder , d20 Modern Swords and Wizardry Complete and tons of and tons of other fully featured free and legal games are available for the asking.

Some games are good, many are bad but it falls well within Sturgeons Law, at least 10% are high quality.

Quote from: Bren;897429In addition to feeling entitled, Chris also failed micro economics. (The two may not be unrelated.)
Chris thinks that if people knew how much games cost, they’d be willing to pay more for the games. That idea is based on a fundamental confusion between value and cost.

• What games cost is one number. Cost of a game can be computed based on what the game cost to create, produce, distribute, and sell.

• What games are worth, i.e. their value, is what people are willing to pay for them. That’s a different number.

If people are willing to pay more than what the item costs, then creating, producing, distributing, and selling that item is a reasonable economic decision for the supplier. If the cost is more than what people are willing to pay, then creating, producing, distributing, and selling that item is an unreasonable, i.e. a dumb decision for the supplier. Chris has made a dumb economic decision and he blames his failure on his customers instead of on his inability or unwillingness to recognize that stuff, like RPGs, is worth what people are willing to pay and no more.

Quoted for truth and correct economics.

Is there a specific company or work the article is supposed to be targeted at?

There are some game books out there with huge development costs (high-quality art, elaborate, colourful layout, many pages of fiction and/or poetry, licensing contracts with established big name things etc...).

But I often don't care for much of that. I'd rather have:

1. nice artwork that is relevant and evocative of the game itself while not distracting or interfering with my consumption of the written rules

2. clear, easy-to-read and quick to reference text and layout (without fucking watermarks behind text, god damn it!)

3. limited fiction: while some out there love it, I'm simply not interested. I want to create my own stories, not read other's that may not have even come out from actual play

4. generic settings, not established with tomes of pre-existing setting fluff. I'd rather have a generic Space Opera setting instead of "Star Wars", rather have an open ended super hero game instead of "Marvel" etc...

It goes without saying that I love Kevin Crawford's stuff because he does ALL Of this. Those things are worth more than production values to me.

Quote from: Necrozius;8975151. nice artwork that is relevant and evocative of the game itself while not distracting or interfering with my consumption of the written rules

This is probably the most expensive thing on the list for myself (and I suspect many other publishers). At least on the POD end of things it is. You can also spend a good deal on the other things but it is possible to avoid them by writing stuff yourself, doing layout yourself, etc. Unless you are a really talented artist, good art is one of those things you just have to buy and it can get into the thousands of dollars (even tens of thousands) to fill a book with solid art.

Quote from: Bren;897429What games are worth, i.e. their value, is what people are willing to pay for them. That's a different number.

This is, to me, the key.

There's a thread on another board talking about how much players "should" care about the DM's world.  To me, this is a stupid question.  People care about things the amount they care about them.  If people don't care about your world as much as you think they should, figure out how to make your world more engaging.

Same thing here.  People value things the amount they value them.  If you want them to value your item more, figure out what will make it worth more to them.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;897531This is probably the most expensive thing on the list for myself (and I suspect many other publishers). At least on the POD end of things it is. You can also spend a good deal on the other things but it is possible to avoid them by writing stuff yourself, doing layout yourself, etc. Unless you are a really talented artist, good art is one of those things you just have to buy and it can get into the thousands of dollars (even tens of thousands) to fill a book with solid art.

Verily. As have mentioned before. The first RPG I wrote was based on a comic I'd worked out the deal with. Problem was the artist was so difficult to approach that I said fuck it and did the art myself. Saved tons though. Later I developed cards for and footed the bill for some art for Dragon Storm and that was costly. Would have been twice as costly had I been able to secure some artists I'd wanted for more work. But 500$ a painting was pushing my funding limits when I needed several pieces and was allready dropping alot into BDP. Stuff I was not capable of producing on my own. I knew my limitations at the time.

As we point out very frequently over on BGG. Art costs and an art heavy game can cost massively even when using cheap artists. And cheap artists are also often un-reliable artists when it comes to batch orders.

I've spent over $2000.00 on Warhammer 40k in less than a year.  You what I love about that?  SJW's are dirty and poor and can't infect my hobby.  And if they do, they're always more poor than me.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;897531This is probably the most expensive thing on the list for myself (and I suspect many other publishers). At least on the POD end of things it is. You can also spend a good deal on the other things but it is possible to avoid them by writing stuff yourself, doing layout yourself, etc. Unless you are a really talented artist, good art is one of those things you just have to buy and it can get into the thousands of dollars (even tens of thousands) to fill a book with solid art.

Good connections count. While I think the bigger pocketed companies like Paizo and WotC are more likely to buy local (esp on cover art), they aren't above pricing art from artists in countries where they can pay less and still get excellent art work.

Someone over on FB suggested other ways to recoup some costs - creating art calendars and posters of the best. Reuse without being obnoxious seems one way to do it.

Thinking about the disparity between cost and value, I can't help but be reminded of a game sitting on my shelf right now that exemplifies how wide the gulf is between those two things: Eoris Essence. For those who don't know, the game consists of two gorgeous hardbacks that come in a slipcase. The art is amazing (EE may just be the prettiest game ever made), the pages are glossy, and I don't even want to know how much producing the game and its books cost. Yet I got it for $20 on Amazon because they were practically giving them away. In fact, not so long ago the remaining books were going to be destroyed because no one would buy them.

I'm pretty sure the game was originally priced at over $100, but the setting is an absolute disaster. I honestly have no clue what the hell is supposed to be going on or what the author is talking about. The text is packed with made up words that aren't defined. And the character sheet has more bubbles to be filled in than a Scantron answer sheet, which just sends casual players running for the hills.

For me, EE is the ultimate lesson that slick production values don't always win out over solid substance and affordable pricing.

I wasn't able to take advantage of that offer because it didn't ship to Canada, but I'd be happy to take that copy off your hands.

Quote from: daniel_ream;897594I wasn't able to take advantage of that offer because it didn't ship to Canada, but I'd be happy to take that copy off your hands.

Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to politely decline for now. The books don't take up too much space and they are amazing to look at. I really don't mind owning them considering the price I paid. Plus, they've sort of become my Moby Dick. EE is the only game I've ever tried to read but utterly failed to grasp. I keep telling myself that one day I'll tackle it again and finally figure it out, but for the moment there's just too much other good stuff to occupy my free time.

Quote from: Lynn;897573Good connections count. While I think the bigger pocketed companies like Paizo and WotC are more likely to buy local (esp on cover art), they aren't above pricing art from artists in countries where they can pay less and still get excellent art work.

Someone over on FB suggested other ways to recoup some costs - creating art calendars and posters of the best. Reuse without being obnoxious seems one way to do it.

WOTCs been using artists on Deviant Art. They aint cheap. But they can produce batches of art. WOTC still has a small backlog of unused art. and alot of art they can retread. Like they did with the core books and possibly the FR book.

Quote from: Brand55;897582Thinking about the disparity between cost and value, I can't help but be reminded of a game sitting on my shelf right now that exemplifies how wide the gulf is between those two things: Eoris Essence. For those who don't know, the game consists of two gorgeous hardbacks that come in a slipcase. The art is amazing (EE may just be the prettiest game ever made), the pages are glossy, and I don't even want to know how much producing the game and its books cost. Yet I got it for $20 on Amazon because they were practically giving them away. In fact, not so long ago the remaining books were going to be destroyed because no one would buy them.

I'm pretty sure the game was originally priced at over $100, but the setting is an absolute disaster. I honestly have no clue what the hell is supposed to be going on or what the author is talking about. The text is packed with made up words that aren't defined. And the character sheet has more bubbles to be filled in than a Scantron answer sheet, which just sends casual players running for the hills.

For me, EE is the ultimate lesson that slick production values don't always win out over solid substance and affordable pricing.

Ooh, that monstrosity was GORGEOUS! Only ever had a chance to peruse it shrinkwrapped at retail and a few online review photos. I sure as hell wasn't gonna spend the $110+ it was going for at retail (I was tempted by Nobilis at $90, but even then I was hesitant by the potential cost sink). Twenty bucks is a steal and I am sad they may have destroyed the rest.

A real tragedy of game production. A bad marriage of great art production, bad editing, and babbling, incoherent heartbreaker with a "furry" skin. Though $20 or less might be worth looking at the malformed abortion, especially if it can double as a coffee table book.

Quote from: Opaopajr;897612Ooh, that monstrosity was GORGEOUS!

In my circles its character sheet is legendary. Just look at this thing:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-kaWFoAPhTRs/UOcxPLtZRPI/AAAAAAAAABU/rKvhm0V1GAU/s1600/Kalei+CS.jpg

Quote from: Omega;897601WOTCs been using artists on Deviant Art. They aint cheap. But they can produce batches of art. WOTC still has a small backlog of unused art. and alot of art they can retread. Like they did with the core books and possibly the FR book.

Deviant Art is a online community, so you get artists from all over there and a lot of them are amateurs. There's no "Deviant Art Price" though.

Wow, sixteen pages over a guy I never heard of who wishes he made more money. I wish I made more, too. Hell, I wish I made what I did before the economic downturn.

There wre no less than two threads over on BGG along the same lines. "Why cant I quit my day job and make a lifestyle from game design?" with one guy accusing other game designers of hiding the big secret, and so on ad absurdium. See my other rants on entry level people demanding pro level paychecks.

Quote from: Brand55;897315Emphasis mine. No one is calling him entitled for pointing out the costs of producing books. We're calling him entitled for demanding that people be able to make a living no matter what they do. That flies in the face of what you just said, so I'm not sure why you're taking his side on this.

Because he never said that? Doesn't seem like rocket science.

Quote from: S'mon;897323I didn't see any demands in the thread, just people saying he's not entitled to be paid any particular amount. In particular that he's not entitled to be paid a living wage for his 'dream job'.

Except he didn't say that.

Quote from: Logosi;897362He also said he deserves to be paid for "living the dream".  that is "entitled".

Also not what he said.

Quote from: Bren;897429Now let's change two words to see how people conclude Chris feels or thinks he is entitled.

Wow. Yes, it's true. If you rewrite what he said, it's like he said something completely different.

The irony is that you didn't even manage to change it enough, since you still haven't produced a quote of Chris saying that he's entitled to anything since Chris' primary job isn't game design and he isn't trying to sell you a $60 hardback.

Quote from: Bren;897429Chris thinks that if people knew how much games cost, they'd be willing to pay more for the games. That idea is based on a fundamental confusion between value and cost.

• What games cost is one number. Cost of a game can be computed based on what the game cost to create, produce, distribute, and sell.

• What games are worth, i.e. their value, is what people are willing to pay for them. That's a different number.

If people are willing to pay more than what the item costs, then creating, producing, distributing, and selling that item is a reasonable economic decision for the supplier. If the cost is more than what people are willing to pay, then creating, producing, distributing, and selling that item is an unreasonable, i.e. a dumb decision for the supplier. Chris has made a dumb economic decision and he blames his failure on his customers instead of on his inability or unwillingness to recognize that stuff, like RPGs, is worth what people are willing to pay and no more.

Generally true, but as the quotes in his blog post and the mass illiteracy in this thread demonstrates geeks are particularly prone to faux-analyzing production costs in order to calculate what something should be "worth". Helton isn't the one creating the fallacy; he's responding to it.

With that being said, perceived worth shouldn't be overlooked here. It's another reason there are so many $60 full-color hardbacks: Despite the increased costs, the perceived value increase of these features make it possible for publishers to stay in business.

John Nephew posted a lengthy explanation of this on RPGNet back in 2000 or 2001 (IIRC) why he was producing hardbacks instead of softcover supplements: He'd run the numbers and, to summarize from memory, concluded that the hardbacks cost a couple more bucks to produce but they increased the perceived value enough that people were willing to pay $10+ more for them. With sales numbers dropping per book across the industry, the only way to afford the production costs of the material (as Christopher Helton says) was to find a way to get people to pay more for them. Half a decade later, everybody was producing hardcovers and it was full-color illustrations that were bumping the perceived value up (although those had a more severe effect on the production costs).

Helton's other major point is that if you want Creator X or Company Y to continue producing supplements and/or new games, then you have to be able to pay them a competitive wage. Because if you don't, the dumb ones are going to drive themselves out of business, the smart creators will take work in an industry that pays them (see Greg Costikyan, John Tynes, Warren Spector, and a multitude of others), and the smart companies will start producing products people are willing to pay for (see Steve Jackson Games).

Quote from: Justin Alexander;897621Helton's other major point is that if you want Creator X or Company Y to continue producing supplements and/or new games, then you have to be able to pay them a competitive wage. Because if you don't, the dumb ones are going to drive themselves out of business, the smart creators will take work in an industry that pays them (see Greg Costikyan, John Tynes, Warren Spector, and a multitude of others), and the smart companies will start producing products people are willing to pay for (see Steve Jackson Games).

And I'm perfectly OK with that.  Produce your product and price it for what you think it should be priced at, and the market will tell you if it agrees.

If the market is too stupid to pay you what you're worth, tough shit for both you and the market.

Something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it, period.  It is highly possible that in five years nobody will be producing RPGs except WOTC.  If that's the way the cookie crumbles, well then, that's the way the cookie crumbles.

It's not that I, or most other people in this thread don't understand that... it's that we don't care.  It would not really phase me at all if tomorrow each and every company producing RPGs, including WOTC, left the market and there were no RPG products for sale at all.  It would not affect my gaming in the slightest.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;897531Unless you are a really talented artist, good art is one of those things you just have to buy and it can get into the thousands of dollars (even tens of thousands) to fill a book with solid art.

Can't you just licence the use of existing author-owned works, rather than commission new work? Wouldn't that be a lot cheaper? Necromancer Games were able to licence the use of Frazetta pieces, presumably the very top end of the fees scale, for low print run Wilderlands products.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;897621Because he never said that? Doesn't seem like rocket science.

He absolutely did. He even explicitly states it again just to be clear in the discussion. Look on the first page of comments, third-to-last post. I'll quote it here.

"Everyone deserves a living wage, regardless of the type of job that they work."

On page 2, Faenor even asked if he was being sarcastic and he didn't understand why anyone would think such a statement would be taken as sarcasm.

Quote from: S'mon;897627Can't you just licence the use of existing author-owned works, rather than commission new work? Wouldn't that be a lot cheaper? Necromancer Games were able to licence the use of Frazetta pieces, presumably the very top end of the fees scale, for low print run Wilderlands products.

Yes. There are a host of cheap alternatives to new art. For example a lot of people put out books of gaming art on RPGnow that you buy and are allowed to use in gaming products (but other people are using them too). You can also purchase limited rights to art or resort to public domain art. I haven't looked into licensing anything except Stephen Fabian art (and I never got a response on that) but licensing well known art can get expensive I think. I have tried to license music and that is hugely expensive (plus you have to secure two types of rights to it).

Still if you don't hire artists that limits what you can do in terms of the look of your book. And people can usually pick up on the corners you cut. Sometimes we use a little public domain art in our books to flesh out the corners, but people notice and I've been decreasing it over time because I notice it too. I like having the ability to commission art because it allows me to get NPC illustrations, monsters, etc. Also, for RPGs there is art you simply need sometimes, like maps.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;897621Wow. Yes, it's true. If you rewrite what he said, it's like he said something completely different.

No Chris did not literally say, "I am entitled." He said he deserved to make a living wage working at his dream job.

QuoteThe irony is that you didn't even manage to change it enough, since you still haven't produced a quote of Chris saying that he's entitled to anything since Chris' primary job isn't game design and he isn't trying to sell you a $60 hardback.

Chris said he deserves to earn a living wage doing his dream job. Whether his dream job is his primary job is irrelevant to what Chris said. The only irony here is you complaining about illiterate dumbasses while not actually reading and understanding what Chris wrote.

QuoteGenerally true, but as the quotes in his blog post and the mass illiteracy in this thread demonstrates geeks are particularly prone to faux-analyzing production costs in order to calculate what something should be "worth". Helton isn't the one creating the fallacy; he's responding to it.

Responding to one fallacy: bad analysis of cost should determine value with another fallacy: stuff should be worth more than what it costs despite people not valuing it at cost is Helton's problem. Yours too, apparently.

QuoteHelton's other major point is that if you want Creator X or Company Y to continue producing supplements and/or new games, then you have to be able to pay them a competitive wage.

He doesn't state that as an "if" he assumes that we should want Creators X or Company Y to continue producing supplements and goes on from there to conclude that we should buy more books (even though he admits he himself doesn't do that). His should buy more conclusion isn't directly related to his entitlement mentality, so I didn't comment on it.

Quote from: S'mon;897627Can't you just licence the use of existing author-owned works, rather than commission new work? Wouldn't that be a lot cheaper? Necromancer Games were able to licence the use of Frazetta pieces, presumably the very top end of the fees scale, for low print run Wilderlands products.

One major problem with licensing work is that once the license expires you cannot reprint the product, which may be a big deal if there is demand. Also, if there is demand it will likely make renewing the license that much more expensive. See the issues Marvel has had with reprints of Conan, Godzilla, ROM, Master of Kung Fun, and the like.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;897364The best setup I've seen is one that only allows for upvoting. I feel like posting something like "I agree!" "Me too", etc is superfluous. Sometimes a +1 is just a way of saying those things without cluttering the discussion.

They show up so small on my screen I barely pay attention. Surprised some people find them so distracting. Though there is one thread where I made a dick home and said " tee hee" and that post says 1 person found that helpful, which made me genuinely LOL

Quote from: Brand55;897629He absolutely did. He even explicitly states it again just to be clear in the discussion. Look on the first page of comments, third-to-last post. I'll quote it here.

"Everyone deserves a living wage, regardless of the type of job that they work."

On page 2, Faenor even asked if he was being sarcastic and he didn't understand why anyone would think such a statement would be taken as sarcasm.

Justin Alexander is much like Mr. Pundit in that he thinks that because he wrote something, it is therefore true despite all evidence to the contrary.

QuoteQuote Originally Posted by Logosi

He also said he deserves to be paid for "living the dream". that is "entitled".

Quote from: Justin Alexander;897621Also not what he said.

QuotePeople deserve to be paid a living wage, whether they are flipping burgers, waiting tables or living out their dreams by writing tabletop games. People doing their "dream job" is often used to devalue the work, and it is work, that they do for games. People should be paid fairly and given adequate compensation for their time, effort and work. Just because someone is "living the dream," it doesn't mean that their work has less value. This is something that we need to remember.

I hate to get stuck in "OMG someone is wrong on the internet!" hell, so I'll just say I think what I highlighted in the quote above backs what I said, unless entitled and deserve do not have the similar definition that I thought they did.    /cheers

Quote from: Matt;897637Justin Alexander is much like Mr. Pundit in that he thinks that because he wrote something, it is therefore true despite all evidence to the contrary.

True - but many people share that flaw while never saying anything of any value at all. Justin Alexander may be a goddamn Lefty who probably hates my guts (at least when aware of my existence), and he certainly has a highly inflated opinion of himself, but he does often produce work of real value; stuff that improves how I think about RPGs and makes me a better Gamesmaster. Likewise Pundit (though we've actually been agreeing about some stuff lately!). So I cut them some slack.

Quote from: S'mon;897646True - but many people share that flaw while never saying anything of any value at all. Justin Alexander may be a goddamn Lefty who probably hates my guts (at least when aware of my existence), and he certainly has a highly inflated opinion of himself, but he does often produce work of real value; stuff that improves how I think about RPGs and makes me a better Gamesmaster. Likewise Pundit (though we've actually been agreeing about some stuff lately!). So I cut them some slack.

Oh, I enjoy reading them both. Just an observation. Makes me wonder if JA is Canadian too.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;897615In my circles its character sheet is legendary. Just look at this thing:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-kaWFoAPhTRs/UOcxPLtZRPI/AAAAAAAAABU/rKvhm0V1GAU/s1600/Kalei+CS.jpg

Oh, I totally remember that SAT Scantron. My favorite absurdity (and oh there are so many to choose from) that encapsulates my view on its madness is the font ambiguity on "Kalei." With the "I" drawn top heavy it looks like a centerpiece exhortation "KALE!", as like a proselytizing health zealot randomly ejaculating "The One True Way" as mantra... and then colorful auras with sparkly bubbles drowns out your vision as you slip into unconsciousness.

/The Doors song "The Crystal Ship" starts up in the background...

Quote from: S'mon;897646True - but many people share that flaw while never saying anything of any value at all. Justin Alexander may be a goddamn Lefty who probably hates my guts (at least when aware of my existence), and he certainly has a highly inflated opinion of himself, but he does often produce work of real value; stuff that improves how I think about RPGs and makes me a better Gamesmaster. Likewise Pundit (though we've actually been agreeing about some stuff lately!). So I cut them some slack.

I haven't really had any dealings with either Justin Alexander or the Pundit, but I've seen both of them go off more than once. This thread is pretty civil compared to a lot of others, all things considered.

It's entirely possible I've missed some posting of Helton's where he clarifies his position and I'm wrong, and if Justin can point it out to me I'd be happy to reconsider my evaluation of the guy's ideas. It wouldn't be the first time someone was wrong on the Internet, after all. But so far I haven't seen any such evidence, just his initial posts in the discussion on his article.

Quote from: Opaopajr;897662Oh, I totally remember that SAT Scantron. My favorite absurdity (and oh there are so many to choose from) that encapsulates my view on its madness is the font ambiguity on "Kalei." With the "I" drawn top heavy it looks like a centerpiece exhortation "KALE!", as like a proselytizing health zealot randomly ejaculating "The One True Way" as mantra... and then colorful auras with sparkly bubbles drowns out your vision as you slip into unconsciousness.

/The Doors song "The Crystal Ship" starts up in the background...

Yep, and there's actually multiple first character sheets for the different races plus a second sheet. I once thought Anima had the worst character sheet I'd ever seen (and it's a nightmare, no doubt), but the EE sheet is a strong contender. The EE sheet is prettier and neater, though, and the fact it actually gives page references is a plus. If I ever tackle the game again I'll have to see if the page numbers are actually correct.

Quote from: Matt;897635One major problem with licensing work is that once the license expires you cannot reprint the product, which may be a big deal if there is demand. Also, if there is demand it will likely make renewing the license that much more expensive. See the issues Marvel has had with reprints of Conan, Godzilla, ROM, Master of Kung Fun, and the like.

Usually art is licensed a bit differently than a set of IP like Conan and Godzilla. Most of the time you buy a non-exclusive right to use the art in your products and that it. The major restriction being you are not allowed to transfer that art by itself to somebody else or to sell it as a piece of clip art.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;897531This is probably the most expensive thing on the list for myself (and I suspect many other publishers). At least on the POD end of things it is. You can also spend a good deal on the other things but it is possible to avoid them by writing stuff yourself, doing layout yourself, etc. Unless you are a really talented artist, good art is one of those things you just have to buy and it can get into the thousands of dollars (even tens of thousands) to fill a book with solid art.

There is so much good copyright free art out there though. I've been collecting pre-1900 images for my wargame for a while now, and there really is fantastic stuff that barely ever sees the light of day. This is just one of my albums

[video]https://www.flickr.com/photos/131371855@N04/albums/72157664158412906[/youtube]

On top of that there's always cheap artists like myself willing to do stuff for next to nothing just for the fun of it, because art is a hobby not a dayjob.

Quote from: TristramEvans;897701There is so much good copyright free art out there though. I've been collecting pre-1900 images for my wargame for a while now, and there really is fantastic stuff that barely ever sees the light of day. This is just one of my albums

[video]https://www.flickr.com/photos/131371855@N04/albums/72157664158412906[/youtube]

Sure. I think there is a lot of great public domain art out there. Especially once you find artists you like, it can be a great resource (I use public domain paintings on our blog page all the time for that reason). But I've just noticed that when we do include public domain art in products, it is one of the first things people point out when they talk about the book's art. For my purposes it tends to not be specific enough, so I've been increasing the amount of original art over the years, to the point that we don't really need public domain stuff anymore.

QuoteOn top of that there's always cheap artists like myself willing to do stuff for next to nothing just for the fun of it, because art is a hobby not a dayjob.

This can certainly be a way to go. In the past I've partnered with artists who were willing to trade services for example (I write for them, they do art for me), or worked with people who just didn't charge that much. When it comes to interior and cover illustrations though, I have artists I like working with who get the look I want, and that costs money. I also just find this a  much more reliable way to get the number of images I need for a book. Also you'd be surprised how difficult those kinds of situations can be to find. Another issue to consider is art that goes into a book is very different from art that goes on a wall. When I get image files from people, I need them formatted a particular way and I need the artist to follow guidelines so the image doesn't create problems for the printer or layout person. So even if you do find a hobbyist willing to work cheap there is the added requirement that they know how to deal with those technical aspects of formatting files. Many artists who do it as a hobby, know how to format, this just shrinks the pool. And now this becoming something of a taboo practice in the industry too as you see more people calling for artists and writers to be paid fairly for their work. So going this route can also impact your reputation. I think if you want to make art because you love it and you are willing to help out a struggling company that has products you really like, then that is fine (and between them and you) but it is something more people seem to frown on these days.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;897734... And now this becoming something of a taboo practice in the industry too as you see more people calling for artists and writers to be paid fairly for their work. So going this route can also impact your reputation. I think if you want to make art because you love it and you are willing to help out a struggling company that has products you really like, then that is fine (and between them and you) but it is something more people seem to frown on these days.

This is a simple extension of CJH's assertion of what creators/artists "deserve*". It's up to the person how they would like to be compensated for their work, and it isn't always money, though as you mention, paying money often has distinct benefits.

*Deserve sounds pretty harsh, but at the same time, so is when people try to assert what they deserve with reality.

Quote from: JamesV;897739This is a simple extension of CJH's assertion of what creators/artists "deserve*". It's up to the person how they would like to be compensated for their work, and it isn't always money, though as you mention, paying money often has distinct benefits.

*Deserve sounds pretty harsh, but at the same time, so is when people try to assert what they deserve with reality.

I think if artists want to work for cheap or trade their work for something else that is up to them. I don't think people should be exploited, and like I said earlier, I support a good minimum wage for regular work (though not enough of an economist to know what that number should be exactly). But in creative fields I think things are bit different. Artists, musicians, writers etc often work for very little when starting out until they get a break or make it big. And the more creative the area the less certain the income. Sometimes creative people band together and unite their efforts, not making much money at the time but in the hopes of doing so down the road. So I think there needs to be some flexibility here because in an effort to protect writers and artists, you might actually be pulling away their ability to work completely.

My point is just that this is coming up a lot more in discussions. It didn't originate with this article, I've seen the subject come up a lot in the past two years. So as a company, if you go that route, it is a consideration is all I was saying.

Still I don't think this is a bad conversation to have. At the end of the day, this is a really small industry, and I don't think most companies could pay more without making many fewer products or, more likely, not hiring as many freelancers. I have no problem with the original article making its case though. Point and counter-point is fine here, especially if it gives people more clarity on what goes into products, why they are priced the way they are, where there is room to change things, and where that is difficult, etc.

I've donated art to two books (Petty Gods and Girls Gone Rogue) and I'm super proud of them. Got nothing but my foot in the door in terms of reputation with the lead writers. That means a lot to me and increases the odds that I can be part of another project. My small contribution to the community instead of just being a consumer.

But I'm no professional by any means and thus don't feel that I deserve any fancy payment. Ask me to do Web design, however, and it will cost you (fairly, though, cause I want to be cool).

Well here's the question that pops to my mind.  What's a fair price for art?  I would assume that a more established and popular artist would charge more than a new comer, but is the newcomer really getting screwed if the selling price is low so long as they're getting their name out there?

Quote from: Warboss Squee;897752Well here's the question that pops to my mind.  What's a fair price for art?  I would assume that a more established and popular artist would charge more than a new comer, but is the newcomer really getting screwed if the selling price is low so long as they're getting their name out there?

Considering that the full-color $60 hardback would have little point but for the art, this is one of the points that could use further discussion.

In re art exploitation:
Also something that really makes me curious where RPGs are concerned. All fair deals are about mutual consent, and I'm wondering where the power imbalance is in the RPG Publisher/Artist discussion, that would merit the spectre of exploitation? When is a publisher being a cheapskate because they're poor, compared to competition for artists in the market, etc.?

When I was doing the convention circuit there were A-LOT of artists who were doing work for lower prices to undercut competittion. but more important as noted before is an artists rep for reliability and speed. Companies will OFFER better pay to artists that have a good workhorse rep even.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;897752Well here's the question that pops to my mind.  What's a fair price for art?  I would assume that a more established and popular artist would charge more than a new comer, but is the newcomer really getting screwed if the selling price is low so long as they're getting their name out there?

The 'no spec' argument is that there is no measurable way to determine what you are getting by 'getting your name out there', so it must be exploitation of the artist and devaluation of the craft in general. That also applies to contests, too. This came up not long ago when SIGGRAPH (http://s2016.siggraph.org/) ran their poster contest and a bunch of no spec'ers jumped all over it as exploitative.

Since these guys are freelance. unless they are really well known and can easily fill their time with high paying work, its all negotiable. Some will have standard contracts with variable costs that take into account milestones, specific use rights and the like, most won't, and many don't really do a lot of self analysis on the cost of their time either.

Quote from: Lynn;897789[...] many don't really do a lot of self analysis on the cost of their time either.

Tl;dr: most artists are really shitty business people.  And they're drama queens.

I did all kinds of free or below market rate (cash under the table, even) when I was starting out as a consultant because I knew I was building my contacts and future customer base.  I also had a day job that paid the bills.  I can't stand listening to writers and artists whining about this shit when IT went through this exact same thing twenty years ago.  Your work either speaks for itself, or it doesn't. If it doesn't, maybe freelance artistry isn't the job for you.

Anything that I do for the hobby is for fun. I have a day job. I'd love to make money off of my amateurish artwork and module writing, because I like my art, my writing and my game module ideas. But I don't see why anyone should pay for my stuff.

My hopes are low because of the endless torrent of stuff on OBS or even on G+ communities. LIke, every day people are churning out shit like "10 magic items!" or "a new prestige class for 5e" and charging money for them. Not sure how I can compete with that, to be honest. I don't have that much free time.

Quote from: Necrozius;897846Anything that I do for the hobby is for fun. I have a day job. I'd love to make money off of my amateurish artwork and module writing, because I like my art, my writing and my game module ideas. But I don't see why anyone should pay for my stuff.

My hopes are low because of the endless torrent of stuff on OBS or even on G+ communities. LIke, every day people are churning out shit like "10 magic items!" or "a new prestige class for 5e" and charging money for them. Not sure how I can compete with that, to be honest. I don't have that much free time.

Do what I'm attempting to do. Find the thing that fires you up and do it well.   Quality over quantity.

Quote from: JamesV;897758All fair deals are about mutual consent, and I'm wondering where the power imbalance is in the RPG Publisher/Artist discussion, that would merit the spectre of exploitation? When is a publisher being a cheapskate because they're poor, compared to competition for artists in the market, etc.?

Best post of the thread.  You've uncovered the crux of the entire issue; the artist or writer is free to value their services at whatever price they wish, but the purchaser is under no obligation to accept the offer.  All marked prices are a bid to enter a contract of sale; the seller is free to set the price wherever they wish, and the purchaser, by paying the price, agrees to the contract.

Or not.  Nobody HAS to buy a Cromdamned thing, and especially not a RPG.  This entire thing started with somebody bitching that the market didn't value his work enough to let him make as much money as he wanted to.

This is called "the law of supply and demand in action."

Quote from: Warboss Squee;897752What's a fair price for art?

Whatever the creator accepts.

Different people value their time and efforts differently, often without a recognition of their output's quality.

The problem from a Publisher (especially Self-Publishers) business perspective is balancing the capital spent on art vs. the expected profit from the project. And I don't mean NET profit, I am just talking gross profits necessary to pay back the capital costs.

It's one thing to say "I'm gonna pay artists well" when you know you can move 1,000 units in the first quarter. It's quite another thing to say when you don't know if you can move 100 units in the first year.

EDIT: Let's do some math.

Our example will be the standard $10 PDF thru DriveThru.
They take 30% so you keep $7.

If you paid $20 for each picture and you have 10 pictures, that's $200 in art expense.
Then let's say you spent $100 for the cover. Now it's $300 in art expense.

$300 costs / $7 profit = 43 units must be sold JUST to cover your art costs.

If you had 20 pictures and paid double those rates ($40/pic and $200 cover), then that's $1000 in art and you would need to sell 143 copies to break even on your art costs.

And thus why doing Kickstarters *may* be a good idea.

Kickstarters are great for getting budget to do up-front costs that you can't otherwise cover.  Things like tooling and setup for manufacturing, and, yes, purchasing art.

I'm a bit more skeptical for "fund me while I'm doing the primary development of this".

Quote from: robiswrong;898038I'm a bit more skeptical for "fund me while I'm doing the primary development of this".

This always bothers me, too.  I saw $600k go toward an MMORPG, and I'm fairly sure the developers for that game took the money and ran.  None of them had any game development or programming experience, and the last rumor I heard was that people kept bickering about the lore behind it and firing, re-hiring, then re-firing writers because they couldn't get along.

Quote from: Crüesader;898042This always bothers me, too.  I saw $600k go toward an MMORPG, and I'm fairly sure the developers for that game took the money and ran.  None of them had any game development or programming experience, and the last rumor I heard was that people kept bickering about the lore behind it and firing, re-hiring, then re-firing writers because they couldn't get along.

Even worse there I would expect (thinking about those who paid money towards the Pathfinder MMO beta especially). If a tabletop RPG is incomplete, you could still take what you have and package it up as a PDF. A computer game may be far too unfinished.

Quote from: Lynn;898060Even worse there I would expect (thinking about those who paid money towards the Pathfinder MMO beta especially). If a tabletop RPG is incomplete, you could still take what you have and package it up as a PDF. A computer game may be far too unfinished.

I'm certain.  It's hard for me to judge- the most I've ever contributed is mediocre lore to campaigns and such, so I'm sure that making your 'masterpiece' come to life is a challenge.  However, the issue with this particular MMORPG was that there was little to no transparency.

Quote from: Spinachcat;897991And thus why doing Kickstarters *may* be a good idea.

No, they are not.  Objectively.  They are offering you, the customer a promise, an idea.  And worse, a lot of these people do not have any business sense on how to use the money.

Here's a few common problem about Kickstarters I've noticed:  Too many people want in.  Which means that if they had a deal with a printing house for about a hundred books?  They have to recalculate that deal to cover the suddenly (for example) 1000 orders.  Which suddenly increases the printing cost exponentially, due to the amount of extra material (ink, paper, card stock for covers, so on and so forth) which means the the money they received may not be enough after all.  This has happened.  Multiple times.  And there are too many instances of KS' get a message thanking all the interest and then apologizing because they didn't calculate for that much interest in said project.

And this is assuming it comes out in a timely fashion and people still care about it, and haven't written it off.  So when it does come they're happy that it actually came.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;897752Well here's the question that pops to my mind.  What's a fair price for art?  I would assume that a more established and popular artist would charge more than a new comer, but is the newcomer really getting screwed if the selling price is low so long as they're getting their name out there?

Like anything, its worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it balanced by whatever someone is willing to sell it for.

The whole "getting their name out there" thing is mostly bullshit though. If someone wants to do some art for a project for a low price, good on them, but no one should be acting like they are doing an artist a favour by letting them give you free/cheap art.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;896985I wouldn't call Microsoft owning Windows a monopoly on who owns Windows. Linux runs on pretty much every Macintosh these days. Crazy people could say that Linux has a monopoly on Macs.

FreeBSD runs on Macs IIRC.

Quote from: robiswrong;898038I'm a bit more skeptical for "fund me while I'm doing the primary development of this".

Kevin Crawford of Sine Nomine has laid down the gold standard for RPG kickstarters. His "rough" draft is done before the KS. Everyone who pledges gets access to the rough draft PDF as soon as they pledge and the KS is aimed at buying art...which he then puts in the public domain.

I wouldn't fund a RPG project that isn't effectively done. I'm in a DCC setting KS right now ("Hubris") that wasn't fully complete, but I pledged based on the strength of the author's blog posts (Wrath of Zombie) and based on the updates, I'll be seeing the book soon enough. Here's an example:
https://wrathofzombie.wordpress.com/2013/10/01/land-of-perpetual-stone-and-mire-an-example-of-the-layout-of-hubris/

Personally, I believe his KS would have done better if he had finished his draft beforehand.

The entire reason I have not done a kickstarter for my game is that 99% of it can be done for free, which is what I'm working on. By the time I'd consider asking for funding it will be written and edited in its entirety, and formatted to the point I like it. Any funding would pay for the costs of publishing. This assumes I ever finish it. It's been about 75% there for what seems like an eternity.

The thing with getting your name out there - if a product won't sell enough to pay for its own art, then it probably won't do a good job of getting your name out there. As someone who has released 5 OSR modules, I've had one break the 100 sale barrier at RPGNow, and that only because it was based on HP Lovecraft

Probably better to do free or community stuff, like Petty Gods or maybe something at Dragonsfoot. Those rack up 1000s of downloads.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;898063No, they are not.  Objectively.  They are offering you, the customer a promise, an idea.  And worse, a lot of these people do not have any business sense on how to use the money.

Here's a few common problem about Kickstarters I've noticed:  Too many people want in.  Which means that if they had a deal with a printing house for about a hundred books?  They have to recalculate that deal to cover the suddenly (for example) 1000 orders.  Which suddenly increases the printing cost exponentially, due to the amount of extra material (ink, paper, card stock for covers, so on and so forth) which means the the money they received may not be enough after all.  This has happened.  Multiple times.  And there are too many instances of KS' get a message thanking all the interest and then apologizing because they didn't calculate for that much interest in said project.

And this is assuming it comes out in a timely fashion and people still care about it, and haven't written it off.  So when it does come they're happy that it actually came.

Bizarre reasoning.  Economies of scale is one of the truest things in this human world.  They may have problems because they didn't calculate their costs correctly and their miscalculations multiplied to overcome their scale efficiencies, or they are dealing with amateur printers who can't execute, or unforseen factors conspired against them (USPS price increase for example), but blaming it on being too successful in an error.  Stretch goals have been particularly dangerous for KSers who were insufficiently prepared.  Most new businesses fail, so I don't see why KS would be behave any differently.

Quote from: Teazia;898075Bizarre reasoning.  Economies of scale is one of the truest things in this human world.  They may have problems because they didn't calculate their costs correctly and their miscalculations multiplied to overcome their scale efficiencies, or they are dealing with amateur printers who can't execute, or unforseen factors conspired against them (USPS price increase for example), but blaming it on being too successful in an error.  Stretch goals have been particularly dangerous for KSers who were insufficiently prepared.  Most new businesses fail, so I don't see why KS would be behave any differently.

Because people, the ones who pay for the promises, do.  You're dead on, but the issue that mishaps and mistakes happen way too often.  And a lot of the time, people are paying for a promise of a product that hopefully will be 'good'.  They are NEVER putting money down on something that is tangible.  That is just bad for the consumer, no matter what they want to tell themselves at night to make them feel better about giving their money away.

I think about all this and realize what a wise man Marcellus Wallace from Pulp Fiction really was. " The world is filled with unrealistic motherfuckers."

Quote from: TristramEvans;898067Like anything, its worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it balanced by whatever someone is willing to sell it for.

The whole "getting their name out there" thing is mostly bullshit though. If someone wants to do some art for a project for a low price, good on them, but no one should be acting like they are doing an artist a favour by letting them give you free/cheap art.

Yeah the stuff that I donated was done so at my own volition: for the community project Petty Gods and for one of Venger's books 'cause I just liked the guy (despite his facade, he's been far more nice and cordial to me than most of the other "controversial" authors out there).

Quote from: Christopher Brady;898063Here's a few common problem about Kickstarters I've noticed:  Too many people want in.  Which means that if they had a deal with a printing house for about a hundred books?  They have to recalculate that deal to cover the suddenly (for example) 1000 orders.  Which suddenly increases the printing cost exponentially,

Very true. Theres several threads over on BGG by designers on why their KS succeeded but for them failed because they got too many orders and didnt realize how that can sometimes dramatically change costs or even the possibility of getting the game made with what they had lined up.

Its an easy mistake to make too and why some designers say its better to sell your game to a publisher and let THEM handle all the logistics.

Quote from: Jason Coplen;898068FreeBSD runs on Macs IIRC.

Oh, Jesus, just stop, both of you.

OS X is based on original OS design work done at NeXT in the 1980's. While it's based on some parts of the original BSD Unix code base, it wasn't even "officially" a UNIX until 2007.  OS X is no more FreeBSD or Linux than a cow is a zebra.

Back on topic:  Economies of scale don't always scale smoothly.  There can easily be fixed cost increases that occur at a certain number of units that need to be amortized over a much larger number of units before the cost per unit comes back down again.  This happens in IT all the time (it's "free" to add more servers until the data center is full and the AC is at capacity.  Then that next server costs you $50,000)

Quote from: Spinachcat;898069Kevin Crawford of Sine Nomine has laid down the gold standard for RPG kickstarters. His "rough" draft is done before the KS. Everyone who pledges gets access to the rough draft PDF as soon as they pledge and the KS is aimed at buying art...which he then puts in the public domain.

Heh heh I backed Scarlet Heroes, a game I will probably never play, simply because of production values. In fact I have just about everything Sine Nomine has put out, even though most of it sits on a shelf. :D

Quote from: Krimson;897219Until the game changes. For instance, Wolflair and Smiteworks (Hero Lab/Realm Works and Fantasy Grounds respectively) don't produce any of their own material... sort of. But they are gaming companies nonetheless. Both are small but successful and good at what they do. As technology improves I suspect Virtual Tabletops will as well. Should the technology get to the point where the learning curve makes them appealing to casual users then you might see a change in the market as games move to a digital format. Heck, I expect some interesting times when Fantasy Grounds moves to Unity and can be run on any platform.

An RPer I know in Second Life and I were talking about even making apps like the old Fighting Fantasy books or even the older Choose Your Own Adventure books. It's easy enough to hide game mechanics for the casual player, so that they can spend less time worrying about numbers and more time just enjoying the story. I guess this wouldn't be too dissimilar to Visual Novels with multiple storylines though it would be neat to have something like that where you could have a persistent character that can go from story to story and even play collaboratively with others online.

Certainly there are those who will swear up and down their loyalty to print books. I still prefer my game books that way, but just because I'm a middle aged guy with set preferences doesn't mean that the market will stay that way. Grognards aren't going to live forever and barring some global disaster that kills our technology, games are going to continue to evolve and change.

Yes, I've noticed some people working in that direction. It's a gamebook/RPG hybrid, after all:).

Quote from: JamesV;897227They are, it's just that most people agree with him.:)

I am among those who tried to complete the column, but couldn't because the finger wagging got a bit too much for me. If someone wants an outlet for their indignation about the RPG buying public, by all means, read that column. If you want to learn a model that can be used to attempt to make a living off making and publishing RPGs listen to the guys like Crawford and Raggi when they open up about their experiences.

Indeed.

Quote from: jeff37923;897231Bolding mine.

Just because there is a lot of easily accessible crap out there does not mean it is not, well, crap or something that totally disinterests you. I'm on Reddit, I like SFRPGs, and the Reddit darling of those is a thing called "Lasers and Feelings" - it isn't a game to me, at best it is a temporary time waster no more complicated than chess.

"Not more complicated by chess" means you're either a genius, or don't know what you are talking about. And I doubt you're the reigning chess champion, so it's the latter:D.
Same with RPGs, you don't need "deep rules" to have a "deep game". You make big rules because you, and the people you expect to play it, would like that.
And vice versa.

Quote from: Krimson;898120Heh heh I backed Scarlet Heroes, a game I will probably never play, simply because of production values. In fact I have just about everything Sine Nomine has put out, even though most of it sits on a shelf. :D

Heh, Scarlet Heroes was the first Sine Nomine book I considered actually playing with its native system, and yet I've backed most Sine Nomine KS campaigns.
I like the Red Tide setting, though. It actually inspired me to write again for non-GMing purposes:p.
And of course, like most people, I use the Refereeing instruments in the books;).

Quote from: AsenRG;898127Heh, Scarlet Heroes was the first Sine Nomine book I considered actually playing with its native system, and yet I've backed most Sine Nomine KS campaigns.
I like the Red Tide setting, though. It actually inspired me to write again for non-GMing purposes:p.
And of course, like most people, I use the Refereeing instruments in the books;).

I picked up Stars Without Numbers about five seconds after I saw the print copy at my FLGS. For a brief time it was my go to game for Sci-Fi stuff, perhaps with a little of Goblinoid's Mutant Future and Starship and Spacemen thrown in. Starship and Spacemen was the first game I ever backed (Indigogo, not KS). As for the other Sine Nomine stuff, I'll get it in print when I can (Skyward Steel, Engines of Babylon) and the rest I have on DriveThruRPG. I think I got a bunch in a Bundle of Holding.

Quote from: Crüesader;898042This always bothers me, too.  I saw $600k go toward an MMORPG, and I'm fairly sure the developers for that game took the money and ran.  None of them had any game development or programming experience, and the last rumor I heard was that people kept bickering about the lore behind it and firing, re-hiring, then re-firing writers because they couldn't get along.

$600K is nothing for MMO development.  NOTHING.  And if you think lore/writing is the primary thing that needs solving, then you're in for a world of hurt.  This is kinda what I do for a living.

Quote from: Spinachcat;898069Kevin Crawford of Sine Nomine has laid down the gold standard for RPG kickstarters. His "rough" draft is done before the KS. Everyone who pledges gets access to the rough draft PDF as soon as they pledge and the KS is aimed at buying art...which he then puts in the public domain.

Evil Hat does similar.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;898063No, they are not.  Objectively.  They are offering you, the customer a promise, an idea.  And worse, a lot of these people do not have any business sense on how to use the money.

Again, depends.  I backed a helmet mounted camera called U-HWK.  They had working prototypes, and needed the kickstarter to tool up production.  Because they already had working prototypes and a good understanding of what was required, I felt it was a solid bet.  Turns out it was.

Quote from: AsenRG;898127"Not more complicated by chess" means you're either a genius, or don't know what you are talking about. And I doubt you're the reigning chess champion, so it's the latter:D.
Same with RPGs, you don't need "deep rules" to have a "deep game". You make big rules because you, and the people you expect to play it, would like that.
And vice versa.

Judge for yourself, then. The "game" is right here for your perusal. (http://onesevendesign.com/lasers_and_feelings_rpg.pdf) You can fap on about "deep rules"/"deep game" all you like, but you have neither with that time waster.

And whether you agree or not, the rules of chess are easy. That is one of the reasons why the game has been played for centuries.

Quote from: daniel_ream;898117Oh, Jesus, just stop, both of you.

OS X is based on original OS design work done at NeXT in the 1980's. While it's based on some parts of the original BSD Unix code base, it wasn't even "officially" a UNIX until 2007.  OS X is no more FreeBSD or Linux than a cow is a zebra.

I made one post where I voiced an opinion. Don't tell me to stop.

Quote from: jeff37923;898210Judge for yourself, then. The "game" is right here for your perusal. (http://onesevendesign.com/lasers_and_feelings_rpg.pdf) You can fap on about "deep rules"/"deep game" all you like, but you have neither with that time waster.

And whether you agree or not, the rules of chess are easy. That is one of the reasons why the game has been played for centuries.

Yes, the rules of chess are easy to remember, as are most good game rules. Actually, scratch that, all the good games I can name have easy rules - some RPGs are just poorly explained, or spend lots of time to explain their genre.
Chess, however, does have deep rules in addition to that - meaning it's hard to master and gives you lot of variability. But that only emerges when you interact with the other player's moves, and it's at least a semi-competent amateur.

[SBLOCK]
For example, I've been able to explain the Legends of the Wulin in 30 minutes. I need about that to explain chess, too, mostly because the rules for check and mate aren't quite intuitive.
It's not that LotW takes 200+ pages of rules because is poorly explained, it just doesn't assume genre familiarity. So you get lots of "how the wuxia genre works" explanations, and then you get examples of how to use the mechanics to emulate the genre.
I cut that time more than in half by not referring to the wuxia genre, period.[/SBLOCK]

No, you don't have particularly interesting emerging qualities of the rules in the game you linked to. However, I believe a deep - hard to master game with lots of variability - could emerge with them, when you combine them with a setting. But that's something the Referee has to provide. Without at least a semi-competent Referee, you'd get a game that's about as interesting as a game of chess against a normal 6-years-old kid (meaning, not much).

Tl;dr games with simple rules have emerging qualities when you add stuff that's assumed by the authors. Some of those same qualities are baked in when you use a heavier system, but that doesn't necessarily make simple rules inferior. In fact, they often offer more flexibility, since heavier systems more commonly delude the participants to fall in the "what's not permitted is forbidden" fallacious thinking.

Quote from: Jason Coplen;898227I made one post where I voiced an opinion. Don't tell me to stop.

Everyone's entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

Quote from: robiswrong;898201Again, depends.  I backed a helmet mounted camera called U-HWK.  They had working prototypes, and needed the kickstarter to tool up production.  Because they already had working prototypes and a good understanding of what was required, I felt it was a solid bet.  Turns out it was.

Did you even read what you wrote?  You BET on the project, and got lucky (there was a SMALL chance of failure, after all, so it was still a risk), that's not good for you.  Gambling is not good for the consumer.

Quote from: Spinachcat;897991Whatever the creator accepts.

No. Whatever the buyer and seller both agree to exchange is "fair". If the seller/creator wants $50,000 and nobody will buy it for that, then it isn't "fair". If the buyer only wants to offer $1 and nobody will sell for that, then it isn't "fair".

(I'm not sure if you agree/disagree with this, but thought the concept worth reinforcing.)

People are free to set whatever price they want and other people are free to accept it or not.  Period.

Crom's hairy nutsack, why is this even a topic for discussion?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898281People are free to set whatever price they want and other people are free to accept it or not.  Period.

Crom's hairy nutsack, why is this even a topic for discussion?

Beats talking about games and playing games, I guess?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;898259Did you even read what you wrote?  You BET on the project, and got lucky (there was a SMALL chance of failure, after all, so it was still a risk), that's not good for you.  Gambling is not good for the consumer.

There's a difference between a risk and a gamble. Rommel thought it had to do with the consequence of failure; most people who speak on it these days feel it has more to do with whether the risk-taker is considering those consequences as compared to the chances of success; regardless, all agree that in many avenues of life, risk-taking (although not gambling) is not only appropriate but frankly essential. I don't consider consumerism special in that regard-- or, rather, to produce anything, SOMEONE has to take a risk. Sure, as a consumer, you can refuse to shoulder any of it-- but then, that thing might not get made. Or, if you'd really like to see that thing made, as a consumer you might agree to shoulder some small, manageable part of that risk-- in the company of others-- hence Kickstarter.

I mean, I'm sorry Kickstarter molested your dog or whatever, but no one is forcing you to participate in Kickstarters. But this proselytizing trend you recurrently revert to whenever Kickstarter comes up is a bit odd.

Quote from: Tod13;898280No. Whatever the buyer and seller both agree to exchange is "fair". If the seller/creator wants $50,000 and nobody will buy it for that, then it isn't "fair". If the buyer only wants to offer $1 and nobody will sell for that, then it isn't "fair".

That's implicit in what he's saying. There is no deal for labor or transfer or grant of rights if the creator does not agree. The creator is providing something of value, here. That's why piracy hurting creators is also morally unfair. Even if the mass illegal distribution of a creator's content places it in the hands of someone who does not agree to what the creator wants, it also enables others to use it who might otherwise have paid the creator the price they set. It leaves the creator responsible for tracking those down (and leaves little hope that it won't get uploaded again and again or reposted later).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898281People are free to set whatever price they want and other people are free to accept it or not.  Period.

Crom's hairy nutsack, why is this even a topic for discussion?

Ask the FightFor15 crowd.

Quote from: daniel_ream;898298Ask the FightFor15 crowd.

Yeah, the thousands of laid of workers here in Alberta are totally banging down the doors to work for minimum wage jobs, and totally not complaining to have EI regulations changed to make their claims longer. :D

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898281People are free to set whatever price they want and other people are free to accept it or not.  Period.

Crom's hairy nutsack, why is this even a topic for discussion?

Retailers have some say as well. Some will baulk at overpriced product as it just sits on shelves.

One local seller was complaining about Games Workshop stuff. It sits on shelves forever.

Quote from: jeff37923;898210Judge for yourself, then. The "game" is right here for your perusal. (http://onesevendesign.com/lasers_and_feelings_rpg.pdf)

Have you played Lasers & Feelings?

I looked at the 1 page game and it would probably be a fun one shot game.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;898259Gambling is not good for the consumer.

But isn't risk inherent in most purchases?

If you decide to try a new whatever (new beer, new cereal, new restaurant), you must "gamble" or "risk" that it may not be any good.

You can mitigate that risk somewhat (Yelp, word of mouth, etc), but the only way to find out if that new Chinese place is really tasty is to eat there and that will cost you money that you won't get back if the new Chinese place just sucks or is just meh.

Quote from: Spinachcat;898386You can mitigate that risk somewhat (Yelp, word of mouth, etc), but the only way to find out if that new Chinese place is really tasty is to eat there and that will cost you money that you won't get back if the new Chinese place just sucks or is just meh.

Unlike some kickstarters, you will at least get a meal before you pay. Of course unlike the kickstarter there are other risks beyond not getting the product. You might also get food poisoning which is worse than blowing $20 bucks on a failed kickstarter.

Quote from: daniel_ream;898298Ask the FightFor15 crowd.

Quote from: Krimson;898306Yeah, the thousands of laid of workers here in Alberta are totally banging down the doors to work for minimum wage jobs, and totally not complaining to have EI regulations changed to make their claims longer. :D

Pundy's original post was about people who write RPGs, not the working world in general, and my comments are in that context.

Quote from: Spinachcat;898386Have you played Lasers & Feelings?

No. When I made the attempt to play as an experiment at my favorite nerd bar, nobody was that interested. The most common response was, "What the fuck is this bullshit?"

Quote from: jeff37923;898458No. When I made the attempt to play as an experiment at my favorite nerd bar, nobody was that interested. The most common response was, "What the fuck is this bullshit?"

Your buddies were probably scared away by "feelings" part.

You might want to try Scrolls & Swords, L&F fantasy hack. A premise along the lines of "Remember Adventure Time series? It's something like that" seems to work great for people who are clueless about what the game is about (confirmed by yours truly).

- The game (http://jesterraiin.dropmark.com/167650/3006817)
- Charsheet (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9GuL4_ENTf8OWtBUXJ5cGFvaE0/edit)

In related news, Christopher Helton sure is determined to prove himself the mvp of worthless shitsack Swine cunts (http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2016/05/christopher-helton-making-fast-gains-in.html), lately!

Quote from: RPGPundit;900567In related news, Christopher Helton sure is determined to prove himself the mvp of worthless shitsack Swine cunts (http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2016/05/christopher-helton-making-fast-gains-in.html), lately!

But I remember these folks when they banned the Gamergate card game (when the people who developed that cheap little game baited these poor dumb bastards and proved a point).  

IRONY:  The same people who supported shit like that are the same sort of people that scream about a company choosing who they do business with.

But.... damn, for a moment I thought he was this guy: https://plus.google.com/+MattWidmann/posts/W6d3ZsWxKc4

You know, the whole "demand you be forced to pay them more money" thing is misleading at best and nonsense at worst.

Anybody making a product can set the price at whatever they damn well please.
Potential customers can choose to pay that price or not.

If some game designer thinks he or she deserves more money, they can ask for it; either asking their customers or, if an employee or contractor, the person paying.  They will either get more money or not.

If they do not, what they do next is their call.

Any industry 'insider' who argues how the market needs to adapt for them to remain successful as opposed to how they need to adapt to the market is an industry insider who's on their way out.

His thesis consists of two points: Medical Bills and Living Wages. Medical bills are still the #1 cause of bankruptcy regardless of vocation, and being paid 'more' (let alone 'fairly') will not solve the problem. And while everyone should have a right to a 'living' wage, they do not have a right to decide what that work should be, and if your current career choices aren't covering it you need to find another line of work.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;897080Given my experience and observations, here are the three reasons why I feel tabletop RPG designers shouldn't be paid more:

1) Tabletop RPGs are difficult to teach to non-geeks, and are massive time sinks (time is money, as the old adage goes).
2) The fanbase for tabletop RPGs are not great at being social influencers outside of their own circles.
3) People who buy tabletop RPGs don't have a lot of disposable income, nor do they represent a very diverse economic market.

The sum of these three parts are a large part of the reason why tabletop RPGs aren't massive moneymakers.

RPGs aren't massive money makers because they're a group activity where you create your own content and only one member needs to purchase product in order to play. This leads to content being undervalued and the majority involved not making purchases.

Quote from: Lynn;897118It saddens me that Economics, Personal Finance, Home Economics and penmanship are no longer taught. For all the life skills that kids are supposed to be learning now because they aren't being taught them by their parents, there sure are a lot of useful ones that have been removed from curricula.

Quote from: trechriron;897260I believe the roots of this problem start in our education system and the level of engagement we have with our children as a society. In our desperate attempt to shower the younglings in love (which I feel is important) we forgot to forge them in strength. We aren't challenging them. We are not teaching them success principles. Our education system is clearly designed to create good worker-bees and robots, not self-reliant entrepreneurs or pioneers.

The American education system is in a terrifying state all around.

Quote from: Orphan81;897144Last I checked the comments, I found it saddening no one seems to be referencing or even replying to Kevin Crawford's post.

When you say everything that needs to be said there's not much more to add.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;897364The best setup I've seen is one that only allows for upvoting. I feel like posting something like "I agree!" "Me too", etc is superfluous. Sometimes a +1 is just a way of saying those things without cluttering the discussion.

+1

Quote from: trechriron;897197I know Chris Helton, we've corresponded frequently and met up to play a game when I was in Vegas. He's a cool guy, super smart and passionate about this industry.

I've never known Chris to be anything other than a tool. For example, when someone checked him on his opinion that GMs don't have more authority than anyone else at the table, he just dismissed them as irrelevant and "LOL"ed. This in a thread about being honest about what things are.

Yeah, class act that Chris.

Quote from: Bren;897240Unlike most of you, I really sympathize with Christopher Helton's plight. Lately I've really been enjoying napping. One might even say it's my current dream job. Why oh, why won't someone pay me a living wage for napping?

What kind of napping? Cat napping?

#TheLionSleepsTonight

Quote from: TristramEvans;898067The whole "getting their name out there" thing is mostly bullshit though. If someone wants to do some art for a project for a low price, good on them, but no one should be acting like they are doing an artist a favour by letting them give you free/cheap art.

I was once involved in a photoshoot where the IP holder got their models to pay for the photographs. Sadly acting like you're doing someone a favor is still a very effective persuasion tactic, and I kinda envy the people who can pull it off.

Quote from: robiswrong;898201$600K is nothing for MMO development.  NOTHING.

Kickstarter has established some drastically low baselines for certain kinds of projects, which has led to many requesting a substantially lower sum than the amount actually needed, making things more risky and yet more likely to meet the intended goals.

Quote from: jeff37923;897231"Lasers and Feelings" - it isn't a game to me, at best it is a temporary time waster no more complicated than chess.

Quote from: jeff37923;898210the rules of chess are easy. That is one of the reasons why the game has been played for centuries.

So you consider an RPG that's no more complicated than Chess with potentially long term popularity to not be a game?

#PartOfTheProblem

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;901227So you consider an RPG that's no more complicated than Chess with potentially long term popularity to not be a game?

#PartOfTheProblem

Except that Lasers and Feelings is not what I would consider a game, let alone a RPG.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;898462Your buddies were probably scared away by "feelings" part.

Cool story, bro.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;898462You might want to try Scrolls & Swords, L&F fantasy hack. A premise along the lines of "Remember Adventure Time series? It's something like that" seems to work great for people who are clueless about what the game is about (confirmed by yours truly).

- The game (http://jesterraiin.dropmark.com/167650/3006817)
- Charsheet (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9GuL4_ENTf8OWtBUXJ5cGFvaE0/edit)

Oh, you mean the piece of shit you call a game that is the only justification for you responding to my post? You're attempt at advertising?

No thanks. Go find a dimwit who does not mind a pompous asswipe standing on his back to play your crap.

Quote from: jeff37923;901326Except that Lasers and Feelings is not what I would consider a game, let alone a RPG.

But Anon is raising a valid point:). So, if you see an RPG with rules "no more complicated than those of chess" in your words, you wouldn't consider it a game?
Do you consider chess to be a game, for starters;)?

Quote from: jeff37923;901329Oh, you mean the piece of shit you call a game that is the only justification for you responding to my post? You're attempt at advertising?

No thanks. Go find a dimwit who does not mind a pompous asswipe standing on his back to play your crap.

Checks the date of the post.

Jeff, sweetie... 2 weeks are considered "archeology" nowadays. I assure you that I forgot that this comment was made, what it was about and who were you in the first place, so, if you decide to answer it that late, you don't make a point. You're acting like a guy angry for no apparent reason and it's hard to react in any other way, than "ok...?" - just like people do, when some random hobo starts to throw verbal shit at them.

So.

Ok...?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]104[/ATTACH]

Quote from: AsenRG;901412But Anon is raising a valid point:).

No, he isn't. Lasers and Feelings is a Reddit darling, if it is around in 10 years than I will consider it to have some lasting potential and maybe even popularity. I don't think it threatens the popularity of any professionally published RPG

Quote from: AsenRG;901412So, if you see an RPG with rules "no more complicated than those of chess" in your words, you wouldn't consider it a game?

Nope. The entirety of the rules are on one page. Not a RPG to me.

Quote from: AsenRG;901412Do you consider chess to be a game, for starters;)?

I do. It has a history for one, which is more than I can say for Lasers and Feelings.

Quote from: jeff37923;901441No, he isn't. Lasers and Feelings is a Reddit darling, if it is around in 10 years than I will consider it to have some lasting potential and maybe even popularity. I don't think it threatens the popularity of any professionally published RPG




Nope. The entirety of the rules are on one page. Not a RPG to me.



I do. It has a history for one, which is more than I can say for Lasers and Feelings.

Wait, man, what does the history of it have to do with whether a set of rules is a game or not?

Ditto for the length of rules issue. GURPS Ultralite fits on one page A4, do you mean it's not an RPG either?

Quote from: AsenRG;901445Wait, man, what does the history of it have to do with whether a set of rules is a game or not?

Ditto for the length of rules issue. GURPS Ultralite fits on one page A4, do you mean it's not an RPG either?

Part of Anon's point was that it had "potentially long lasting popularity".

GURPS Ultralite is a reduction down to one page from a rulebook of a few hundred pages - plenty of room for expansion. Same with Classic Traveller Ultralite - a one page reduction from a couple hundred page rulebook with plenty of room for that one page to expand.

That is the crux of the problem for me. L&F is one page and that is all there is, nothing more. Nothing for it to actually become once you have gotten bored with it (which looks to be pretty damn quick). It does not pass my litmus test for being an RPG.

I happened upon this thread from 2002 where John Nephew talks about game pricing (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?10451-Game-Pricing-A-Detailed-Example) and I'm getting a serious case of deja vu.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;901415Jeff, sweetie... 2 weeks are considered "archeology" nowadays. I assure you that I forgot that this comment was made, what it was about and who were you in the first place, so, if you decide to answer it that late, you don't make a point.

As the only poster on rpg.net to ever be banned for not posting quickly enough (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?709945-Infraction-for-Anon-Adderlan-3)-Three-Day-Ban) (while previewing my reply), I can say this kind of thing is a huge problem. It encourages immediate comment on inflammatory issues before a thread gets locked, after which better thought out responses can no longer be made. And what about IM's, where the discussion technically never ends?

I'm increasingly concerned I have no control over what my words and actions mean anymore.

...

Alright, overspent the drama points there but the time window people use to assess relevance really is becoming so narrow that it's actively destructive.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;901517I happened upon this thread from 2002 where John Nephew talks about game pricing (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?10451-Game-Pricing-A-Detailed-Example) and I'm getting a serious case of deja vu.

You know it never ceases to amaze me how grown-ass people like this never seem to realize that 'doing your dream job' or 'creating art/entertainment' is never a profitable venture.  Especially those who pander to the type of potential customers that are very rarely employable in anything that doesn't involve floor buffers or hair nets.  No, I'm not ridiculing regular minimum wage workers that are just starting out or on hard times- I'm just honestly saying that the people 'over there' are rarely what I consider 'money-makers and money-spenders' because of their sense of entitlement, their poor choices in education/trade skills, and general lack of desirability to have in any work place.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;901517As the only poster on rpg.net to ever be banned for not posting quickly enough (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?709945-Infraction-for-Anon-Adderlan-3)-Three-Day-Ban) (while previewing my reply), I can say this kind of thing is a huge problem.

I'm not even joking this is either a monumental accomplishment on your part to warrant them resorting to this, or that's the proverbial asylum ran by inmates.

And I've said it before, I'm not so much worried about how a bunch of random folks run their own private forum.  I'm more concerned about how game developers use that shit to shut down their competitors and critics.  That is what bothers me more than anything.  

I can ruffle you guys here and there, and that's fine.  I can probably even critique your shit.  But I don't see that, and that's what makes this den of loons more appealing.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;901517the time window people

Way I see it, it's pointless to come back and comment on trivial matters a week or two afterwards, especially if all the message consists of personal butthurt. Without anything constructive to add it's like an attempt to ignite the flame that's long time extinguished, party moved on, the campfire is no more. That's not how flame wars look like. We have standards, fer Chrissake. ;)

BTW, why are you people staying on rpg.net, I don't even.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;901538BTW, why are you people staying on rpg.net, I don't even.

It can be fun occasionally, and there are people I like that aren't here;).

Quote from: AsenRG;901544It can be fun occasionally, and there are people I like that aren't here;).

You should do the only reasonable thing, then: abduct them, manipulate their minds Clockwork Orange style, so that they hate the place with unparalleled passion...

(http://homemcr.org/cms/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/A-Clockwork-Orange-2.jpg)

...oh wait, that's a bit too close to "evil mastermind" territory, right?

Dammit, back to the planning phase...

Quote from: AsenRG;901544It can be fun occasionally, and there are people I like that aren't here;).

I have friends that live in diseased third-world shitholes.  I don't go and visit them.

Quote from: Crüesader;901547I have friends that live in diseased third-world shitholes.  I don't go and visit them.

While I can appreciate a bit of metaphor, the expenses and potential dangers of visiting TBP are vastly below those of visiting a "diseases third-world shithole";).

Quote from: AsenRG;901552While I can appreciate a bit of metaphor, the expenses and potential dangers of visiting TBP are vastly below those of visiting a "diseases third-world shithole";).

I went into most third-world shitholes with a rifle or crew-served weapon and could shoot anything that was a threat.  I think you're mistaken.  ;)

Actually, I'd chance it to say that the 'diseased' part is spot-on, though it's more psychological than physiological...

/quickpeekover

Yeah.  If stupidity, outrage addiction, and gender fetishism were the Hantavirus- that place would be the reason an entire continent was glassed.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;901517I happened upon this thread from 2002 where John Nephew talks about game pricing (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?10451-Game-Pricing-A-Detailed-Example) and I'm getting a serious case of deja vu.

Is John Nephew demanding gamers pay more though? Based on the comment, he seems to be responding to a thread where some gamers are crying about hoe gaming is too expensive a hobby for them. Nephew is just being upfront about how little money gamebooks actually make. It's a response to entitled whining.

He was in business for about ten years then, and now he's been in business successfully for about 25 years. It doesn't seems fair to lump him in with Helton.

Quote from: Baulderstone;901558Is John Nephew demanding gamers pay more though? Based on the comment, he seems to be responding to a thread where some gamers are crying about hoe gaming is too expensive a hobby for them.

Well of course hoe gaming is expensive and always will be, have you seen how much they charge by the hour for the regular stuff, let alone kinky shit like d20s and books with random harlot tables in them!? :D

Quote from: Crüesader;901526I'm not even joking this is either a monumental accomplishment on your part to warrant them resorting to this, or that's the proverbial asylum ran by inmates.

And I've said it before, I'm not so much worried about how a bunch of random folks run their own private forum.  I'm more concerned about how game developers use that shit to shut down their competitors and critics.  That is what bothers me more than anything.  

I can ruffle you guys here and there, and that's fine.  I can probably even critique your shit.  But I don't see that, and that's what makes this den of loons more appealing.

I appreciate the hell out of not having to censor my every sentence, lest I say something that the most irritable admin on any given day fantasizes might be construed as characterizing some poster in a less-than-100%-positive light.  I have this habit of saving key posts I make (for one thing, if I came up with an elegant turn of phrase in a similar thread eight years before, why not recycle it?), and I said things with impunity on TBP a dozen years ago that would get people permabanned today five times over.  The level of discourse is sure as hell not better for it.

By contrast, I wouldn't have thought the almost complete lack of civility moderation here would've resulted in anything other than a snake pit.  Obviously I was mistaken.

Quote from: AsenRG;901544It can be fun occasionally, and there are people I like that aren't here;).

They thread kicked a guy for actually having the gall to to provide evidence of his assertions, ffs.  That place is the North Korea of gaming forums.

Quote from: Crüesader;901555the 'diseased' part is spot-on, though it's more psychological than physiological...

And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you. ;)

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;901559Well of course hoe gaming is expensive and always will be, have you seen how much they charge by the hour for the regular stuff, let alone kinky shit like d20s and books with random harlot tables in them!? :D

and here I was thinking about all the fertilizer costs...

Quote from: Crüesader;901555I went into most third-world shitholes with a rifle or crew-served weapon and could shoot anything that was a threat.  I think you're mistaken.  ;)

Actually, I'd chance it to say that the 'diseased' part is spot-on, though it's more psychological than physiological...

/quickpeekover

Yeah.  If stupidity, outrage addiction, and gender fetishism were the Hantavirus- that place would be the reason an entire continent was glassed.

As before...the metaphor didn't become more useful because you made it more flowery:). No matter how you might try to spin it, all the outrage on TBP doesn't equal, danger-wise, even one guy with a weapon he doesn't know how to use, or the possibility of a rare disease with extremely easy to avoid transmission vectors.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;901567They thread kicked a guy for actually having the gall to to provide evidence of his assertions, ffs.  That place is the North Korea of gaming forums.

That still doesn't bring here all the people I like;).

Quote from: AsenRG;901814That still doesn't bring here all the people I like;).

Clockwork Orange treatment. Just sayan', man. Just sayan'... :p

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;901559Well of course hoe gaming is expensive and always will be, have you seen how much they charge by the hour for the regular stuff, let alone kinky shit like d20s and books with random harlot tables in them!? :D

This why I should never post on four hours of sleep.

Quote from: AsenRG;901814As before...the metaphor didn't become more useful because you made it more flowery:). No matter how you might try to spin it, all the outrage on TBP doesn't equal, danger-wise, even one guy with a weapon he doesn't know how to use, or the possibility of a rare disease with extremely easy to avoid transmission vectors.

Work with me here.  

Okay, I have friends that live in New Jersey.  I don't go visit them.

Better?

And in reference to the topic of this thread... a serious note... is it just not possible to find a core book for any major title in a bookstore for less than $40.00 these days?  And that's just ONE book.  Hell, I think each of the D&D 5e books are closer to $45. They're usually $10-$15 cheaper in PDF format... making them the same price as some of these really shit-awful looking game books at the Drive-Thru RPG site.

Quote from: Crüesader;901840And in reference to the topic of this thread... a serious note... is it just not possible to find a core book for any major title in a bookstore for less than $40.00 these days?  And that's just ONE book.  Hell, I think each of the D&D 5e books are closer to $45. They're usually $10-$15 cheaper in PDF format... making them the same price as some of these really shit-awful looking game books at the Drive-Thru RPG site.

Well, the question here seemed to be: Should you buy and pay even a lot more for those "really shit-awful looking game books at the Drive-Thru RPG site" so that the designer can get a "fair life pay" for those few sales he is making?

Quote from: Maarzan;901844Well, the question here seemed to be: Should you buy and pay even a lot more for those "really shit-awful looking game books at the Drive-Thru RPG site" so that the designer can get a "fair life pay" for those few sales he is making?

I honestly do my damnedest to get used books for all my other games to avoid paying regular store prices.  If I'm gonna be disgusted at paying $50.00 for something that's 60%+ fluff and an actual decent book....  the hipster making shit-awful game books might need to look at learning to work a wrench or a floor buffer to get that 'fair life pay'.

When I was a kid I wanted to make my own comic books when I grew up.  My dad told me 'hobbies don't always pay the bills'.  Then he introduced me to some of his buddies that wanted to be musicians and spent their 20's and early 30's living as bums on peoples' couches and were more than willing to steer me toward real jobs.

Quote from: Crüesader;901840And in reference to the topic of this thread... a serious note... is it just not possible to find a core book for any major title in a bookstore for less than $40.00 these days?  And that's just ONE book.  Hell, I think each of the D&D 5e books are closer to $45. They're usually $10-$15 cheaper in PDF format... making them the same price as some of these really shit-awful looking game books at the Drive-Thru RPG site.

The 5e PHB is $27 on Amazon as of a few minutes ago, $35 on Powells online store (usually their store prices are the same - you can often find used books in quite good condition for less).

The problem isn't necessarily just with sourcing costs, but also business models. Selling a product through distribution means the distributor and retailer are taking a bite, and money comes in slowly. Retailers do not always want to source product directly from the maker, and the maker doesn't always want to supply directly to the retailer.

It makes me think that book sellers need to have the same sort of protection (big) tech sellers often have - which is price matching. Most consumers do not bother with this. What happens is that if you have a price matching reseller, you can show them an ad from another reseller and they will price match it. Then, whatever the difference is, that is reflected 'up the chain' and the reseller owes less. This allows different resellers to compete against each other on price.

I only know a little bit about book distribution and more about tech distribution, but I know book distribution costs more, and doesn't give much in the way of value for the additional points.

Everything is messed up for distribution because of Amazon. Amazon doesn't necessarily control what they pay to a vendor (it doesn't flex), but they do have control over their price to the customer.  Suppliers to Amazon will take a hit being on Amazon, and that is at the expense of their resellers.

This is all a game of hot potato in the book trade between two incompatible groups: Amazon (supplier -> Amazon) and Everyone Else (supplier -> distributor -> reseller). I always buy the cheapest, except when there is actual value conveyed that makes up for the difference in discounts. These often are:

- special versions you can only get from one source (such as Kickstarters, etc)
- special pricing / bundles at events

At some cons I have been to, you can get special con deals. If the maker is there, and you want an autographed book or added illustration, you can get it. All reasons to buy there. What surprises me is when there is a con and everything is at full price. For example, I went to several PaizoCons (not the last two...) and Paizo didn't offer any discounts at all on their stuff there. I only looked at vendors that offered some special cherry, and bought from them - but not Paizo products.

Quote from: Crüesader;901840And in reference to the topic of this thread... a serious note... is it just not possible to find a core book for any major title in a bookstore for less than $40.00 these days?  And that's just ONE book.  Hell, I think each of the D&D 5e books are closer to $45.

So, adjusting for inflation, the 5E books at $45 would cost $13.65 in 1979 dollars.

Quote from: Baulderstone;901932So, adjusting for inflation, the 5E books at $45 would cost $13.65 in 1979 dollars.

You with your logic and your obscure, but relevant financial formulas.

Quote from: Bren;901946You with your logic and your obscure, but relevant financial formulas.

I just find it funny that we have gone full circle. This thread started about an entitled gamer designer complaining about how deserved to be paid more. Now we have come around to an entitled player complaining about how a game book shouldn't cost so much, particularly when the success of the book shows that the market can certainly bear it.

Quote from: Baulderstone;901957... Now we have come around to an entitled player complaining about how a game book shouldn't cost so much, particularly when the success of the book shows that the market can certainly bear it.

I want decent amount of usable crunch alongside the fluff when I'm paying $100+ for some gaming systems, and I tend to seek used copies to get a better bargain- I think you should look at the definition of 'entitled'.  I can afford many things that I want, but I didn't get that way being stupid and buying bad products.  I got there because I save money and spend wisely.

Quote from: Baulderstone;901957I just find it funny that we have gone full circle.

It would be funnier if it didn't happen in so many threads.

Quote from: Baulderstone;901932So, adjusting for inflation, the 5E books at $45 would cost $13.65 in 1979 dollars.

And at triple the page count for the PH and MM, and half again the page count for the DMG.

We don't pay the same prices we did in 1979 for a half-gallon of milk, either, or for a fillup of gas, or to see the local hockey team play, or to ride the subway, or to pop into a fast food joint and grab a burger.

Short of computers, actually, I'm hard pressed to think of ANY product I'm likely to buy that's more thoroughly nuked the fuck out of inflation than gamebooks.

All that I know is that I feel somehow "wrong" about paying 70$ (CAD) for a gaming book (I really wanted to get Numenera, but could only afford the PDF in a humble bundle). Come to think of it, most of my PC games are purchased that way (months or years after release in a heavily discounted package on a charity site). Same thing with some indie games: there are some 150 pg, black and white soft covers out there priced at 40-50$. What in the fuck?

By the way, I sadly didn't support my FLGS and instead bought all three core books for 5e on Amazon for no more than 30$ (CAD) each. I guess that I'm part of the problem.

At least I'm not stealing. However, I admit that I was one of THOSE people who paid 0$ for those "pay what you want" FATE Supplements.

On Amazon, I have bought the Numenera corebook for less than 40 € 3 years ago, shipping included ! And I have got the D&D 5 starter kit, PHB, MM and DMG for 100 €, shipping included, 2 years ago ! Honestly, it has become diffuclt to me to justify paying the full prized in store without the PDF included. And translated RPGs (in French, in my case) are always more costly, delayed and riddled with grammar errors and typos (there is some hyberpole there but honestly given the fact that I do read English quite well, I have little incentive to wait for the translated book in the gaming store) !

Quote from: Baulderstone;901932So, adjusting for inflation, the 5E books at $45 would cost $13.65 in 1979 dollars.

Yeah and adjusting for inflation minimum wage here in the US should be about $35 to $38 dollars an hour...

Looks like the freely available income has dropped in a wide area of the world that was RPG-customer-area and the improving countries don´t seem to catch the enthusiasm for our hobby.

For what is left of FAI, there is much more competition - not only inside the hobby but also in regard to similar and completly different hobbies, some of them because they got cheaper since tehn and thus affordeable for the same strata.

Roleplaying games are not only competing with the current editions of other games but with all other role playing games somewhere available - most importantly those that are already sitting on your shelf or the shelf of a friend.

Even if the new game has 640 pages instead of the 64 of the game of old. How many of these pages are really new and an improvement in regard to the other half to several dozen other 64 page books plus house rules in the line you have collected since then?

Quote from: Crüesader;901840Work with me here.  

Okay, I have friends that live in New Jersey.  I don't go visit them.

Better?

...I guess? I'm not sure what about New Jersey is the problem, crime rate, distance, anything else?
My point is: a visit to TBP is not comparable to any of these.
There's no danger to me: the worst they can do to me is ban me, and that would make me laugh.
There's no distance: I open a tab, or close it to leave. That's instantaneous travel.
What is going to happen? Someone would hurt my feelings:p?

QuoteAnd in reference to the topic of this thread... a serious note... is it just not possible to find a core book for any major title in a bookstore for less than $40.00 these days?  And that's just ONE book.  Hell, I think each of the D&D 5e books are closer to $45. They're usually $10-$15 cheaper in PDF format... making them the same price as some of these really shit-awful looking game books at the Drive-Thru RPG site.

Frankly, I couldn't care any less for "major titles". I have games I like better already. Some of them are even free;).
Then again, I'm buying PDFs, because I prefer their "storage space requirements". And I don't care much about the looks of books. I'm not going to marry one of them, even if I take it to bed:D!

Quote from: Ravenswing;902020And at triple the page count for the PH and MM, and half again the page count for the DMG.

Plus having a good bit of full-color interior art, which was something the 1E Core Rulebooks were lacking.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;902077Yeah and adjusting for inflation minimum wage here in the US should be about $35 to $38 dollars an hour...

That's very true. Is is meant to refute my point? I was pointing out that games are being sold for less than they were 1979, and you pointed out that minimum wage is relatively lower. How does your point negate mine?

Quote from: AsenRG;902086...I guess? I'm not sure what about New Jersey is the problem, crime rate, distance, anything else?

As someone that lives in New Jersey, I would say the biggest issue is asshole vacationers from New York. :)

Quote from: Baulderstone;902111As someone that lives in New Jersey, I would say the biggest issue is asshole vacationers from New York. :)

Make it "crime rate, distance, or asshole vacationers from NYC", then;).
Still not relevant to TBP. There's nothing easier than ignoring some "vacationer" on a forum, you either close the tab, or yous your IL. It is set up for that reason:p!

I mean, the logic that "people being jerks is as bad as them assaulting you" is something that I associate with SJWs, and the first time I heard it, I didn't believe they mean it seriously. Let's not go so far into hyperbole that we get in the same neighbourhood:D!

Quote from: Baulderstone;902111That's very true. Is is meant to refute my point? I was pointing out that games are being sold for less than they were 1979, and you pointed out that minimum wage is relatively lower. How does your point negate mine?

Federal Minimum wage in 1979 was $2.90 an hour.
Federal Minimum wage in 2013 was $7.25 an hour. (2013 being the release year of 5E)

If the price model is considered correct, 5-ish - hours of labor could buy your theoretical ($13.65) 1979 5E product at Min Wage
If the price model is considered correct, 6-ish + hours of labor could buy a real 5E product in 2013...

By that model I'd say the cost of games has gone up or at least gone up for the average high school gamer. And this despite all printing and product advances that have occurred in nearly 40 years...

Still we are talking about one product. Sold for less in what sense?

The cost can go wherever it want's but if the value of the dollar drops and the price is inflated higher than where it was (or is), that means it costs more. If time equals money. The overall point is that the value of the dollar has been on a steady decline for much of the last 3 decades... I blame Reagan.

What RPG designers really want is for the value of the dollar to be worth more. But that's what we all want...

This is like pissing is a wishing well hoping your wish will come true. Such is the state of current economics in the US.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;902128What RPG designers really want is for the value of the dollar to worth more. But that's what we all want...

This is like pissing is a wishing well hoping your wish will come true. Such is the state of current economics in the US.

Except books across the board are more expensive these days. In a smaller industry like RPGs, where so many do print on demand, the price is going to be even higher. When you consider the volume these companies are probably doing, the price isn't that bad in my opinion. That said, I don't think any company is entitled to sales and I don't think RPG designers are entitled to a living wage (trying to make it as an RPG designer is like trying to make it in any other creative and chancy field where not every one ends up getting to the point where they earn a living---people have brought up the musician example and I think it is comparable).

If you look at a book like the 5E PHB and consider the amount of high quality art, the layout, the fact that it is a hardcover, and the fact that it is 300 pages...50 bucks (or as low as 27 bucks on amazon) seems fair to me. If a smaller company like mine were to try to emulate that, we'd have to charge over 70 dollars, probably way more (which I think is an unreasonable amount). My sense is there is a bit of unreasonableness going on on both sides of this debate. The realities of the industry are that they have to charge a certain amount just to make profit. The realities of the industry also mean there isn't a 60 thousand dollar position waiting for everyone who wants to become an RPG designer.

All that said, if you don't want to spend 50 on a book, that is more than reasonable. I think 50 bucks is reasonable but it is also nothing to sneeze at. Nothing wrong with doing what you want with your money (whether that means buying RPGs that don't cost as much, getting 5E used or home brewing the material). I am pretty cheap when it comes to buying RPG books because I have responsibilities and my home budget is pretty tight right now. So rather than buy all the 5E books at once, I had to stagger them.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;902132Except books across the board are more expensive these days. In a smaller industry like RPGs, where so many do print on demand, the price is going to be even higher. When you consider the volume these companies are probably doing, the price isn't that bad in my opinion. That said, I don't think any company is entitled to sales and I don't think RPG designers are entitled to a living wage (trying to make it as an RPG designer is like trying to make it in any other creative and chancy field where not every one ends up getting to the point where they earn a living---people have brought up the musician example and I think it is comparable).

If you look at a book like the 5E PHB and consider the amount of high quality art, the layout, the fact that it is a hardcover, and the fact that it is 300 pages...50 bucks (or as low as 27 bucks on amazon) seems fair to me. If a smaller company like mine were to try to emulate that, we'd have to charge over 70 dollars, probably way more (which I think is an unreasonable amount). My sense is there is a bit of unreasonableness going on on both sides of this debate. The realities of the industry are that they have to charge a certain amount just to make profit. The realities of the industry also mean there isn't a 60 thousand dollar position waiting for everyone who wants to become an RPG designer.

All that said, if you don't want to spend 50 on a book, that is more than reasonable. I think 50 bucks is reasonable but it is also nothing to sneeze at. Nothing wrong with doing what you want with your money (whether that means buying RPGs that don't cost as much, getting 5E used or home brewing the material). I am pretty cheap when it comes to buying RPG books because I have responsibilities and my home budget is pretty tight right now. So rather than buy all the 5E books at once, I had to stagger them.

Books are more expensive these days? Or the Value of the dollar is worth less these days...

You say Potatoe, I say potato ;)

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;902132If you look at a book like the 5E PHB and consider the amount of high quality art, the layout, the fact that it is a hardcover, and the fact that it is 300 pages...50 bucks (or as low as 27 bucks on amazon) seems fair to me. If a smaller company like mine were to try to emulate that, we'd have to charge over 70 dollars, probably way more (which I think is an unreasonable amount). My sense is there is a bit of unreasonableness going on on both sides of this debate. The realities of the industry are that they have to charge a certain amount just to make profit. The realities of the industry also mean there isn't a 60 thousand dollar position waiting for everyone who wants to become an RPG designer.

I see your point and I don't mean to argue with you, but just to add something, I think this - along with most of the thread - is approaching the whole pricing question from a strictly supply-side perspective without looking at the other point of view.

Here's the thing: I understand, accept and agree that producing 5E D&D on 300 pages with numerous high-quality colour illustrations on glossy paper (I don't know if it's on that, it's just an example) in hardcover does have to cost so-and-so-many dollars to stay profitable. Fair enough. What bothers me a bit is that the supply-side of the argument seems to just axiomatically accept that an RPG book can ONLY be produced in hardcover, ONLY on glossy paper, and ONLY chock-full of high-quality colour art. Why couldn't WotC also publish the exact same text on cheap paper, softcover, with barely any (black and white) illustrations, and offer that as an alternative, cheaper option? For every X thousand people who are perfectly happy to splurge on the nice version, there must be Y thousand fans who would prefer a cheaper, uglier alternative, and Z thousand who will simply never, ever buy the expensive version but might the cheap one. Now, I don't know exactly what numbers X, Y, and Z are, but I'm pretty sure that Y and Z are larger than zero, and I also have the feeling that publishers in this debate like to pretend those two numbers don't actually exist.

As a consumer, I've certainly bought pdfs while avoiding the more expensive print option, and give a chance I might hypothetically by a cheap print book while passing on the expensive version. Some publishers recognise this. Kevin Crawford has certainly never complained that I've only spent dozens of dollars on his pdfs and not hundreds on his books (well, I've spent some on his books, as well...). And yet, Kevin has some of my money, because he made it possible for me to buy cheaper versions of his products; while many publishers have none of my money, because they didn't do that. They shoved a fancy but expensive thing in front of me and said "take it or leave it", and I left it.

Quote from: Premier;902146I see your point and I don't mean to argue with you, but just to add something, I think this - along with most of the thread - is approaching the whole pricing question from a strictly supply-side perspective without looking at the other point of view.

Here's the thing: I understand, accept and agree that producing 5E D&D on 300 pages with numerous high-quality colour illustrations on glossy paper (I don't know if it's on that, it's just an example) in hardcover does have to cost so-and-so-many dollars to stay profitable. Fair enough. What bothers me a bit is that the supply-side of the argument seems to just axiomatically accept that an RPG book can ONLY be produced in hardcover, ONLY on glossy paper, and ONLY chock-full of high-quality colour art. Why couldn't WotC also publish the exact same text on cheap paper, softcover, with barely any (black and white) illustrations, and offer that as an alternative, cheaper option? For every X thousand people who are perfectly happy to splurge on the nice version, there must be Y thousand fans who would prefer a cheaper, uglier alternative, and Z thousand who will simply never, ever buy the expensive version but might the cheap one. Now, I don't know exactly what numbers X, Y, and Z are, but I'm pretty sure that Y and Z are larger than zero, and I also have the feeling that publishers in this debate like to pretend those two numbers don't actually exist.

I think you are right that this isn't the only model for book production. I think there is a good case to be made that RPG books shouldn't all be glossy hardcovers. But there is a good reason why the rationale I am using is applied. I mean, it costs money to make a book. It is an investment. For some folks it is a hobby and they are content to pump money in a book and either break even or even run at a loss. But for companies like WOTC, PAIZO, etc, they are trying to make money. I don't think they are making obscene profit, but to generate revenue, it makes sense that they'd set the cover price so to cover their costs and bring in a return on their investment. I think publishing books with less glossy art is a great idea. I love black and white art and I think a lot of books are overproduced these days. Having both a deluxe and a more affordable version seems like a good idea. Whether it is economical for them to do both at the same time, I don't know. But I think part of this is people expect the high quality art, the hardback, etc. Personally I don't think that is very sustainable for most companies to do. Still, at the end of the day, if a company goes the cheaper route, you will be getting less content. So that is just worth keeping in mind.

Even if you make books cheap and try to keep them affordable, you are still going to be subject to these principles. You still will set your cover price so you can generate some revenue. That is just the reality of it. It isn't free to operate a publishing company and this is a very niche market.

QuoteAs a consumer, I've certainly bought pdfs while avoiding the more expensive print option, and give a chance I might hypothetically by a cheap print book while passing on the expensive version. Some publishers recognise this. Kevin Crawford has certainly never complained that I've only spent dozens of dollars on his pdfs and not hundreds on his books (well, I've spent some on his books, as well...). And yet, Kevin has some of my money, because he made it possible for me to buy cheaper versions of his products; while many publishers have none of my money, because they didn't do that. They shoved a fancy but expensive thing in front of me and said "take it or leave it", and I left it.

I think Kevin Crawford is doing amazing work and does an excellent job of keeping his stuff affordable. I am in awe of what he does frankly. But I am curious what he will end up charging for Godbound, because that looks like it is going to have a lot of color images in it and high production value. What a publisher can afford to charge and still remain profitable is going to vary depending on the particulars of all their arrangements, but it is rare to see hard cover, glossy color books for less than 50 bucks these days (simply because most companies don't make profit if they charge less than that). I am sure Kevin will set the most affordable retain price he can on it. If it is color, glossy and hardbound, I imagine that would need to be in the ballpark of 50 or more (though maybe he's figured out a cheaper way to do it).

I am just saying people ought to be realistic, on both sides of the argument. I don't think the market will support everyone who wants to design stuff making a living wage, and I don't think it will support super cheap high quality books either.

Quote from: Premier;902146What bothers me a bit is that the supply-side of the argument seems to just axiomatically accept that an RPG book can ONLY be produced in hardcover, ONLY on glossy paper, and ONLY chock-full of high-quality colour art. Why couldn't WotC also publish the exact same text on cheap paper, softcover, with barely any (black and white) illustrations, and offer that as an alternative, cheaper option? For every X thousand people who are perfectly happy to splurge on the nice version, there must be Y thousand fans who would prefer a cheaper, uglier alternative, and Z thousand who will simply never, ever buy the expensive version but might the cheap one. Now, I don't know exactly what numbers X, Y, and Z are, but I'm pretty sure that Y and Z are larger than zero, and I also have the feeling that publishers in this debate like to pretend those two numbers don't actually exist.

I very much agree with you, and I know what you mean.

On the other hand... do we think WOTC knows what they're doing?  Do we think they haven't thought of this?  Maybe the reason they haven't done it is it wouldn't be profitable.

It's happened in model railroading too.  Kits have all but disappered, now it's buy a ready to run car for $25 instead of a kit for $10.  If the manufacturers could make money offering kits, they would.  Maybe the same thing is going on.

On the other hand, the lack of reliable marketing data in the gaming industry makes this all guesswork, which frustrates the shit out of me.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;902128What RPG designers really want is for the value of the dollar to be worth more. But that's what we all want...

Maybe you do, but I'm certain this wouldn't work for me and would lead me to reduce my RPG purchases from US companies;).

Quote from: Ravenswing;902020And at triple the page count for the PH and MM, and half again the page count for the DMG.

We don't pay the same prices we did in 1979 for a half-gallon of milk, either, or for a fillup of gas, or to see the local hockey team play, or to ride the subway, or to pop into a fast food joint and grab a burger.

Short of computers, actually, I'm hard pressed to think of ANY product I'm likely to buy that's more thoroughly nuked the fuck out of inflation than gamebooks.

i can video games unless you want to count that as comps any one remember video games costing 65plus in the 80s and it might be absolute low budget crap and now i can buy a game for 50-60 $ new AAA release

Quote from: AsenRG;902170Maybe you do, but I'm certain this wouldn't work for me and would lead me to reduce my RPG purchases from US companies;).

Why?
My example means to use the dollar 'the' measure of currency, not one measure currency among others...

Quote from: kosmos1214;902186i can video games unless you want to count that as comps any one remember video games costing 65plus in the 80s and it might be absolute low budget crap and now i can buy a game for 50-60 $ new AAA release

Nope.  I remember games in the 80s costing $30.  Each major increase (to $40, $50, and then $60) caused much bitching.

Quote from: robiswrong;902199Nope.  I remember games in the 80s costing $30.  Each major increase (to $40, $50, and then $60) caused much bitching.

30 bucks?  Where did you live?  Cuz I want to live there!  Then maybe, with the inflation we've got now, the games would be just $50, instead of the near 100+ they are now (don't forget about season passes and pre-purchasing DLC, that counts towards what you spent on a game nowadays.)

In the 80's games used to be 40-50 in the U.S.  $50-60 up here in Soviet Canuckistan.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;902077Yeah and adjusting for inflation minimum wage here in the US should be about $35 to $38 dollars an hour...

Horseshit. Even the hyper-progressive Huffington Post agrees (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/18/minimum-wage-worth-less-than-1968_n_3461568.html) that, adjusted for inflation, the minimum wage peaked at $1.60 in 1968. In 2016 dollars, that's $11.00 (http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm).

Even using a completely different metric, and adjusting for increases in productively, the same site (which has every possible ideological reason to come up with ways to inflate that number) can't come up with a total higher than $21.72 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/13/minimum-wage-productivity_n_2680639.html). (And "you should give me more money because the tools I'm using have improved" is a different and much weaker argument than "I can't make a living".)

You and the 5 people who upvoted your post are idiots. It's bad enough that statistics lie, on their own. You don't have to lie for them.

And simple inflation-based metrics don't really work for books, in any case. While the cost of core books have (roughly) kept up with inflation, it's comparing apples & oranges. Boxes and black and white and crude line art have gone away, and have been replaced by glossy full color and often very thick tomes full of technically impressive art. And while print costs have dropped, things like shipping and paper have seen major surges in the not-so-distant past, the distribution options have collapsed, the advent of print on demand technologies have opened up the market to a much wider range of content creators, and completely new options like PDFs have eaten into the print market. The market's also changed, become smaller, more fragmented, and grayer. Some of these raise prices, others cause them to drop. But it means X dollars in 1974 = Y dollars in 2016 is pretty meaningless.

RPGs are luxury items. Production costs set a minimum threshold (and we've been fortunate that a number of small companies have shared hard numbers), but beyond that it's what the market will bear. Consumers are always price conscious, but on the flip side things like Ptolus and FGG and the whole collectible market have proven that people are also willing to spend real money on vanity products and embellishments.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;90220430 bucks?  Where did you live?  Cuz I want to live there!  Then maybe, with the inflation we've got now, the games would be just $50, instead of the near 100+ they are now (don't forget about season passes and pre-purchasing DLC, that counts towards what you spent on a game nowadays.)

In the 80's games used to be 40-50 in the U.S.  $50-60 up here in Soviet Canuckistan.

Weird - in my version of the 1980s, computer games for my ZX Spectrum were £4.99, £5.99 tops. I remember ELITE was £14.99 - fair enough considering it was THE MOST INCREDIBLY AWESOME THING EVER :cool: - and it came with rulebook, novella, and keyboard overlay for the ship controls.

Quote from: Pat;902212You and the 5 people who upvoted your post are idiots.

Yeah, but it sounded so good when he said it, I wanted it to be true. :o

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;902152I think Kevin Crawford is doing amazing work and does an excellent job of keeping his stuff affordable. I am in awe of what he does frankly. But I am curious what he will end up charging for Godbound, because that looks like it is going to have a lot of color images in it and high production value. What a publisher can afford to charge and still remain profitable is going to vary depending on the particulars of all their arrangements, but it is rare to see hard cover, glossy color books for less than 50 bucks these days (simply because most companies don't make profit if they charge less than that). I am sure Kevin will set the most affordable retain price he can on it. If it is color, glossy and hardbound, I imagine that would need to be in the ballpark of 50 or more (though maybe he's figured out a cheaper way to do it).

Mostly, it comes down to controlling your production costs and your per-item costs. If you can do that, there's money to be had.

Godbound is a 240 page book. I'm only doing it in hardback, so that keeps things simple- I'm selling both a standard color version and a premium color version. For the standard color version, it costs $15.14 to print a copy. For the premium color version, it's $30.48. Against that, I have to look at what the market's willing to pay for a 240-page color book without a substantial existing fanbase. For premium color, $59.99 is about as far as I can safely push it. After OBS takes their cut, that leaves me with a little less than $20 profit/copy. Now, $20/print copy is about my floor for how much I want to be making on a standalone game, and if I'd peeled 20 pages off the book, I'd be making it. Still, I'm willing to give up a couple of bucks on my margin for a core book, so $59.99 works for me. For the standard color version, I can cut $10 off the price and sell it for $49.99, which is only $10 more than the usual b/w price point, and it still makes me a few bucks more than my $20 floor per copy. The standard version subsidizes what I lose on the premium.

Notice the real easy way to wreck those numbers? Just increase the page count. I can expand it without too much of an issue with standard color, since that only runs me 2 cents a page, but premium color costs me 10 cents a page... and unless I want to release only a standard color version, expanded size risks locking me into a situation where my ostensible flagship version is either making me chicken feed or priced so high it scares off the casually curious. Mega-tomes might be appealing, but they just don't POD nicely, and any product format that cannot comfortably fit into the POD retail box is pure poison to small RPG publishers. Small publishers have to write the kind of games that fit well into the available retail channels, and that usually means circa-200-page standalone games that still have plenty of supplement hooks.

Quote from: SineNomine;902219Mostly, it comes down to controlling your production costs and your per-item costs. If you can do that, there's money to be had.

Godbound is a 240 page book. I'm only doing it in hardback, so that keeps things simple- I'm selling both a standard color version and a premium color version. For the standard color version, it costs $15.14 to print a copy. For the premium color version, it's $30.48. Against that, I have to look at what the market's willing to pay for a 240-page color book without a substantial existing fanbase. For premium color, $59.99 is about as far as I can safely push it. After OBS takes their cut, that leaves me with a little less than $20 profit/copy. Now, $20/print copy is about my floor for how much I want to be making on a standalone game, and if I'd peeled 20 pages off the book, I'd be making it. Still, I'm willing to give up a couple of bucks on my margin for a core book, so $59.99 works for me. For the standard color version, I can cut $10 off the price and sell it for $49.99, which is only $10 more than the usual b/w price point, and it still makes me a few bucks more than my $20 floor per copy. The standard version subsidizes what I lose on the premium.

Notice the real easy way to wreck those numbers? Just increase the page count. I can expand it without too much of an issue with standard color, since that only runs me 2 cents a page, but premium color costs me 10 cents a page... and unless I want to release only a standard color version, expanded size risks locking me into a situation where my ostensible flagship version is either making me chicken feed or priced so high it scares off the casually curious. Mega-tomes might be appealing, but they just don't POD nicely, and any product format that cannot comfortably fit into the POD retail box is pure poison to small RPG publishers. Small publishers have to write the kind of games that fit well into the available retail channels, and that usually means circa-200-page standalone games that still have plenty of supplement hooks.

Thanks for sharing, and thanks for giving some concrete numbers.

Quote from: S'mon;902214Weird - in my version of the 1980s, computer games for my ZX Spectrum were £4.99, £5.99 tops. I remember ELITE was £14.99 - fair enough considering it was THE MOST INCREDIBLY AWESOME THING EVER :cool: - and it came with rulebook, novella, and keyboard overlay for the ship controls.

yes to be fair the cost of European 8 bit computer games are an oddity compared to most of the rest of the market at the time.
 actually cost is one of the major reasons the nes was never a big thing in England compared to the US

Quote from: Crüesader;901526You know it never ceases to amaze me how grown-ass people like this never seem to realize that 'doing your dream job' or 'creating art/entertainment' is never a profitable venture.  Especially those who pander to the type of potential customers that are very rarely employable in anything that doesn't involve floor buffers or hair nets. .

Just commenting that I read this comment while wearing a hair net... at my job. And a beard net, which frankly feels a lot like a practical joke, but sadly is not.

Of course, it is not my dream job, and in fact I am being underpaid, in a manner of speaking.  But in an hour I take off the hair (and BEARD?!) net, dump them in a box, or something, and I'll probably never see them again, for certain metaphorical values of never.

Quote from: Spike;902238Just commenting that I read this comment while wearing a hair net... at my job. And a beard net, which frankly feels a lot like a practical joke, but sadly is not.

Yeah, that beard net thing is the one thing I see that makes me feel really sorry for guys in food service/catering/preparation.  And sadly, I've seen employers refuse to hire people because of facial hair.

Quote from: Spike;902238Of course, it is not my dream job, and in fact I am being underpaid, in a manner of speaking.  But in an hour I take off the hair (and BEARD?!) net, dump them in a box, or something, and I'll probably never see them again, for certain metaphorical values of never.

That's just it, not your dream job.  Probably not where you saw yourself.  Probably requires a lot less skill than you have.  The folks I'm talking about will never do anything that doesn't require a list of tasks made of three-word sentences, because that's all these over-emotional loons are good for (at best).

Quote from: S'mon;902215Yeah, but it sounded so good when he said it, I wanted it to be true. :o

Plusses and reputation systems reduce the standard of participation to the anonymous click of a button, which is why they're toxic. Since you're not taking a public stand, there's no pressure to get it right, or suffer ridicule. (Unless you come out and admit it, like you did. Which is admirable, but rare.) And since it's just a click, it's almost never going to be a considered vote. It rewards people (click! feel good!) for supporting things that cater to their own biases and preconceptions. Which discourages the rational thought needed for conditional support or partial disagreements, in favor of quickly labeling things as good or bad, and forming cliques based on those superficial assessments.

Quote from: robiswrong;902199Nope.  I remember games in the 80s costing $30.  Each major increase (to $40, $50, and then $60) caused much bitching.

I was buying Nintendo games new for 20 bucks in the 80s.

Quote from: Pat;902242Plusses and reputation systems reduce the standard of participation to the anonymous click of a button, which is why they're toxic. Since you're not taking a public stand, there's no pressure to get it right, or suffer ridicule. (Unless you come out and admit it, like you did. Which is admirable, but rare.) And since it's just a click, it's almost never going to be a considered vote. It rewards people (click! feel good!) for supporting things that cater to their own biases and preconceptions. Which discourages the rational thought needed for conditional support or partial disagreements, in favor of quickly labeling things as good or bad, and forming cliques based on those superficial assessments.

But The Computer thanks me everytime I downvote one of your posts

Quote from: TristramEvans;902247But The Computer thanks me everytime I downvote one of your posts

You responded, with words. I'll give you an upvote for that. :)

Quote from: Pat;902242Plusses and reputation systems reduce the standard of participation to the anonymous click of a button, which is why they're toxic. Since you're not taking a public stand, there's no pressure to get it right, or suffer ridicule. (Unless you come out and admit it, like you did. Which is admirable, but rare.) And since it's just a click, it's almost never going to be a considered vote. It rewards people (click! feel good!) for supporting things that cater to their own biases and preconceptions. Which discourages the rational thought needed for conditional support or partial disagreements, in favor of quickly labeling things as good or bad, and forming cliques based on those superficial assessments.

If you pay heed, you can see who's doing it based on new posts.  They think they're clever.  But I have 0 respect for someone who doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to speak their mind on a topic, but think the anonymous 'X out of Y posters found this post useful' blurb at the bottom will do something. But I've said it before, gaming is full of pussies.

TBH, I think there's quite a few emotionally unhinged lurkers here, too.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;902245I was buying Nintendo games new for 20 bucks in the 80s.

Depended on the game and publisher, but a quick internet search shows that NES games tended to be $30-40, and SNES games were about $50.

And that was pretty pricey back in the day. I remember I tended to get one, two games a year at most until the N64 days. And then when I had my own disposable income shit got real.

Quote from: Crüesader;902240Yeah, that beard net thing is the one thing I see that makes me feel really sorry for guys in food service/catering/preparation.  And sadly, I've seen employers refuse to hire people because of facial hair.



That's just it, not your dream job.  Probably not where you saw yourself.  Probably requires a lot less skill than you have.  The folks I'm talking about will never do anything that doesn't require a list of tasks made of three-word sentences, because that's all these over-emotional loons are good for (at best).

Eh. My dream job is a cross between a highly paid bum and a porn star.  This job is actually somewhat skilled... not sure where you have to be on the skilled/unskilled worker spectrum, but its definitely  not unskilled. Then again, morons can and do learn the job.  The reason I mentioned it at all is that being required to wear a hair net is pretty god damn unusual for me.  Usually its a safety vest and might be a hard hat. Once I had to carry an oxygen mask.  

I wouldn't come back to work if I had to wear the beard net every day. I'm sensitive*, and the damn thing irritates me in half a dozen places.






* read 'delicate little flower'

I post over at BRP Central. It has Like buttons, but it also lists who liked a post. I greatly prefer that. I've gotten both upvotes and downvotes in this thread and they mean nothing because I don't know who made either. I'm sorry to say this, but I simply don't value everyone's opinion equally. Also, when I make an upvote, I want the person to know.

I don't know if the downvotes serve any real purpose, anonymous or not, so I never bother with those. Pushing a button works for agreement, but I feel disagreement calls for an actual response to say why you disagree.

It's nothing I am really worked up about though.

Quote from: Spike;902258Then again, morons can and do learn the job.

I went to school with a moron that became a doctor, so I wouldn't let that affect your self-esteem.

Quote from: Baulderstone;902259I post over at BRP Central. It has Like buttons, but it also lists who liked a post. I greatly prefer that. I've gotten both upvotes and downvotes in this thread and they mean nothing because I don't know who made either. I'm sorry to say this, but I simply don't value everyone's opinion equally. Also, when I make an upvote, I want the person to know.

I don't know if the downvotes serve any real purpose, anonymous or not, so I never bother with those. Pushing a button works for agreement, but I feel disagreement calls for an actual response to say why you disagree.

It's nothing I am really worked up about though.

ill go with that its very hard to tell if it actually means any thing

Quote from: kosmos1214;902261ill go with that its very hard to tell if it actually means any thing

A thumbs or or thumbs down click on a random post by an anonymous person on an obscure internet forum devoted to an equally obscure hobby?

It means about as much as the poster's ego, and not much else I think.

Quote from: Spike;902258The reason I mentioned it at all is that being required to wear a hair net is pretty god damn unusual for me.

Gowning up and donning hear/beard nets is one of a number of reasons I'm happy not to have to work a GMP manufacturing job.

Quote from: Baulderstone;902260I went to school with a moron that became a doctor, so I wouldn't let that affect your self-esteem.

Don't worry about that....  I see it as a step to becoming an independent small businessman, maybe more.   Now, if only it didn't interfere with gaming, or my dreams of becomeing the worlds first pika-hobo porn star....

Quote from: Baulderstone;902259I don't know if the downvotes serve any real purpose, anonymous or not, so I never bother with those. Pushing a button works for agreement, but I feel disagreement calls for an actual response to say why you disagree.

Well, don't go expecting people to have actual spine.  We all know that's a rarity in this hobby.

Quote from: TristramEvans;902264A thumbs or or thumbs down click on a random post by an anonymous person on an obscure internet forum devoted to an equally obscure hobby?

It means about as much as the poster's ego, and not much else I think.

Means a lot, actually. You or I might not care about a particular variety, but meaningless status rewards have a significant effect on how people act and organize, and their online incarnations (like likes) encourage some very negative collective behaviors.

Quote from: Pat;902277Means a lot, actually. You or I might not care about a particular variety, but meaningless status rewards have a significant effect on how people act and organize, and their online incarnations (like likes) encourage some very negative collective behaviors.

Actually, man- I wouldn't give it that much credibility.  It's not that serious, it's worth a roll of the eyes and a chuckle at best.  Pathetic people cling to meaningless status rewards, everyone else just finds it sad.  

I'd only worry if Joe Forumite went and posted a product or something he'd made, and folks started spamming him with dislikes.  If people are going to 'hate' a product, I'd like to see why.

Quote from: SineNomine;902219Mostly, it comes down to controlling your production costs and your per-item costs. If you can do that, there's money to be had.

Godbound is a 240 page book. I'm only doing it in hardback, so that keeps things simple- I'm selling both a standard color version and a premium color version. For the standard color version, it costs $15.14 to print a copy. For the premium color version, it's $30.48. Against that, I have to look at what the market's willing to pay for a 240-page color book without a substantial existing fanbase. For premium color, $59.99 is about as far as I can safely push it. After OBS takes their cut, that leaves me with a little less than $20 profit/copy. Now, $20/print copy is about my floor for how much I want to be making on a standalone game, and if I'd peeled 20 pages off the book, I'd be making it. Still, I'm willing to give up a couple of bucks on my margin for a core book, so $59.99 works for me. For the standard color version, I can cut $10 off the price and sell it for $49.99, which is only $10 more than the usual b/w price point, and it still makes me a few bucks more than my $20 floor per copy. The standard version subsidizes what I lose on the premium.

Notice the real easy way to wreck those numbers? Just increase the page count. I can expand it without too much of an issue with standard color, since that only runs me 2 cents a page, but premium color costs me 10 cents a page... and unless I want to release only a standard color version, expanded size risks locking me into a situation where my ostensible flagship version is either making me chicken feed or priced so high it scares off the casually curious. Mega-tomes might be appealing, but they just don't POD nicely, and any product format that cannot comfortably fit into the POD retail box is pure poison to small RPG publishers. Small publishers have to write the kind of games that fit well into the available retail channels, and that usually means circa-200-page standalone games that still have plenty of supplement hooks.

Holy crap.

Here you have it, folks.  I always knew there was no gorram money in this business, but here are the numbers.  The old manufacturers' axiom is "you have to double your money," and you aren't even doing that.  Imagine if you had to give retail discounts, or deal with a distributor who wanted an extra 15 percent off the retailer's 40%?

That's why gaming companies died like flies in the late 80s after the D&D bubble burst; to make it you had to be able to produce your product for 20% of retail.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;902289Holy crap.

Here you have it, folks.  I always knew there was no gorram money in this business, but here are the numbers.  The old manufacturers' axiom is "you have to double your money," and you aren't even doing that.  Imagine if you had to give retail discounts, or deal with a distributor who wanted an extra 15 percent off the retailer's 40%?

That's why gaming companies died like flies in the late 80s after the D&D bubble burst; to make it you had to be able to produce your product for 20% of retail.

I've mentioned that in a couple of threads. One of the Avalon Hill designers has a long breakdown of costs somewhere for board games and about the same problems apply to RPGs. Distributor and/or Retailer take a huge cut. Then theres all the little costs. It eats into profit very fast. I think SJG had a rundown too once on how tight it was getting Gurps printed. A couple of KS campaigns have breakdowns of the costs now too. I ran into this when I was pricing printers in Blue Earth way back. I could get my 100 page book printed for about a penny a page BW. But colour increased the price to about I think 5 cents a page. So instead of printing each book for about 1$ each it would have cost 5$ each. The comic that shipped with each was the biggest expense.

One thing that isnt so much a cost factor today as it was back in the 80s and 90s is advertising. Getting a spot in a magazine could set you back 100$ or more. Im not sure how much it cost to run in Dragon, but the magazine I got my ad in set me back 100$.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;902289Here you have it, folks.  I always knew there was no gorram money in this business, but here are the numbers.  The old manufacturers' axiom is "you have to double your money," and you aren't even doing that.  Imagine if you had to give retail discounts, or deal with a distributor who wanted an extra 15 percent off the retailer's 40%?

That's why gaming companies died like flies in the late 80s after the D&D bubble burst; to make it you had to be able to produce your product for 20% of retail.

The numbers are actually friendlier than they look at first glance.

To take Godbound as an example, the KS post-fees pulled in $40K. My production costs for the game plus shipping the top tiers their books total around $14K. Thus, I was spending $14K to get $26K, but all of that money came fluttering down from above, so I had zero out-of-pocket expenses. When the print copies hit DTRPG, I'll only be earning $20 on a $60 hardback, yes, but I'll be producing that hardback for zero dollars OOP.

In one sense, this is just an accounting dodge. If I were the printer as well as the publisher and the customers were paying me direct, then I'd be spending money to print them their copy, and more of their money would be going to printing than it would go to profit. Having OBS as an intermediary just lets them handle the money and give me my final cut. Yet in another sense, this POD layer provides critical buffering from the kind of liquidity dangers that were a big reason that all those earlier small companies died. Hell, even TSR's downfall was in large part because of a lack of liquidity.

In the old days, a small publisher had to make a major up-front investment in printing in order to release a title. Moreover, this print run had to be at least 5,000+ copies in order to get substantial benefits from economies of scale. If they printed just a thousand or two, they'd get the worst of both worlds- POD-level print costs, plus up-front print run expenditures. If they didn't have the money to do this print run, they had no income stream, which means they had no company. Once general market demand withered to the point that a 5,000-copy seller RPG was an unusual hit and the market no longer supported economical print runs, it was just a matter of time before they found themselves with warehouses full of unsold books and printer's bills they couldn't pay. They were unable to continue as going concerns because they could not pair expenditures and income in a timely fashion, and it didn't matter how much money their IP was worth if they couldn't monetize it efficiently.

With Kickstarters and POD, a well-run modern small RPG publisher is effectively bulletproof. My expenditures for 2016 involve precisely zero dollars in advance of revenues. Sine Nomine never runs red, and I am never spending money that I haven't already been given. Provided I do not spend too much of this money in the wrong places, I will never be in a position where I don't have the money to print the next copy of a game, or don't have the cash to launch a title. The only way Sine Nomine can die is if I decide that the money it's bringing in isn't worth the work I'm putting into it; I can never be forced to close by debt or inadequate operating capital.

A practical small RPG publisher is thus able to live in market environments that would kill a larger company; they're book-trade extremophiles. It doesn't matter if they're pulling in a tenth of the gross of a large healthy company if they've got a tenth of the costs and a tenth of the staff. I've already earned a comfortable middle-class wage on my writing endeavors this year and it's not even halfway through the year. It requires relentless labor, multiple products, and ruthless control of overhead and production expenses, but it's going quite comfortably for me and I only even started this about five years ago. I firmly believe that a more talented writer with a good grasp of business operations and the necessary production skills can do as well or better.

A well planned KS can eliminate a lot of working capital and inventory risk, benefitting everyone, but sadly business acumen and game product creation prowess are not always linked, so plenty of guys still fuck it up.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;902191Why?
My example means to use the dollar 'the' measure of currency, not one measure currency among others...

Man, that was just a joke:).
I know what you mean - you'd want what you get paid to be able to purchase more. I was simply observing that a more valuable currency has downsides, like "the prices for foreign customers effectively go up, with all the associated drops in demand".

Quote from: SineNomine;902351The numbers are actually friendlier than they look at first glance.

To take Godbound as an example, the KS post-fees pulled in $40K. My production costs for the game plus shipping the top tiers their books total around $14K. Thus, I was spending $14K to get $26K, but all of that money came fluttering down from above, so I had zero out-of-pocket expenses. When the print copies hit DTRPG, I'll only be earning $20 on a $60 hardback, yes, but I'll be producing that hardback for zero dollars OOP.

In one sense, this is just an accounting dodge. If I were the printer as well as the publisher and the customers were paying me direct, then I'd be spending money to print them their copy, and more of their money would be going to printing than it would go to profit. Having OBS as an intermediary just lets them handle the money and give me my final cut. Yet in another sense, this POD layer provides critical buffering from the kind of liquidity dangers that were a big reason that all those earlier small companies died. Hell, even TSR's downfall was in large part because of a lack of liquidity.

In the old days, a small publisher had to make a major up-front investment in printing in order to release a title. Moreover, this print run had to be at least 5,000+ copies in order to get substantial benefits from economies of scale. If they printed just a thousand or two, they'd get the worst of both worlds- POD-level print costs, plus up-front print run expenditures. If they didn't have the money to do this print run, they had no income stream, which means they had no company. Once general market demand withered to the point that a 5,000-copy seller RPG was an unusual hit and the market no longer supported economical print runs, it was just a matter of time before they found themselves with warehouses full of unsold books and printer's bills they couldn't pay. They were unable to continue as going concerns because they could not pair expenditures and income in a timely fashion, and it didn't matter how much money their IP was worth if they couldn't monetize it efficiently.

With Kickstarters and POD, a well-run modern small RPG publisher is effectively bulletproof. My expenditures for 2016 involve precisely zero dollars in advance of revenues. Sine Nomine never runs red, and I am never spending money that I haven't already been given. Provided I do not spend too much of this money in the wrong places, I will never be in a position where I don't have the money to print the next copy of a game, or don't have the cash to launch a title. The only way Sine Nomine can die is if I decide that the money it's bringing in isn't worth the work I'm putting into it; I can never be forced to close by debt or inadequate operating capital.

A practical small RPG publisher is thus able to live in market environments that would kill a larger company; they're book-trade extremophiles. It doesn't matter if they're pulling in a tenth of the gross of a large healthy company if they've got a tenth of the costs and a tenth of the staff. I've already earned a comfortable middle-class wage on my writing endeavors this year and it's not even halfway through the year. It requires relentless labor, multiple products, and ruthless control of overhead and production expenses, but it's going quite comfortably for me and I only even started this about five years ago. I firmly believe that a more talented writer with a good grasp of business operations and the necessary production skills can do as well or better.

Thank you:).
And that's the kind of projects I like to back on KS;).

Quote from: Chainsaw;902355A well planned KS can eliminate a lot of working capital and inventory risk, benefitting everyone, but sadly business acumen and game product creation prowess are not always linked, so plenty of guys still fuck it up.

The fact that people that create fun games aren't always those most able to get them in the hands of customers is one of the lasting tragedies of all game hobbies:D!

I like +1 ability, at least.  It prevents you from getting Warnocked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warnock%27s_dilemma

Quote from: SineNomine;902351I firmly believe that a more talented writer with a good grasp of business operations and the necessary production skills can do as well or better.

The combination of creative writing talent, production skill, and business sense and operating ability seems to be fairly rare. Business sense and operating ability often seems easy when you have it. But it is demonstrably  lacking in many small business owners.

Also, thanks for sharing your experience along with some actual numbers. So often conversations like this are dominated by idle speculation and silly pontificating by uninformed hobbyists.

Quote from: Spike;902267Don't worry about that....  I see it as a step to becoming an independent small businessman, maybe more.   Now, if only it didn't interfere with gaming, or my dreams of becomeing the worlds first pika-hobo porn star....

let me know when you get there ill pay for my sister to go see the show :P

Quote from: Chainsaw;902355A well planned KS can eliminate a lot of working capital and inventory risk, benefitting everyone, but sadly business acumen and game product creation prowess are not always linked, so plenty of guys still fuck it up.

Not just plenty, most do.

Quote from: SineNomine;902351The numbers are actually friendlier than they look at first glance.


A practical small RPG publisher is thus able to live in market environments that would kill a larger company; they're book-trade extremophiles. It doesn't matter if they're pulling in a tenth of the gross of a large healthy company if they've got a tenth of the costs and a tenth of the staff. I've already earned a comfortable middle-class wage on my writing endeavors this year and it's not even halfway through the year. It requires relentless labor, multiple products, and ruthless control of overhead and production expenses, but it's going quite comfortably for me and I only even started this about five years ago. I firmly believe that a more talented writer with a good grasp of business operations and the necessary production skills can do as well or better.

Just like every other small business, really.  Yes, there is satisfaction, but you will work FAR harder than you ever would for a biweekly paycheck.

Quote from: SineNomine;902351A practical small RPG publisher is thus able to live in market environments that would kill a larger company; they're book-trade extremophiles. It doesn't matter if they're pulling in a tenth of the gross of a large healthy company if they've got a tenth of the costs and a tenth of the staff. I've already earned a comfortable middle-class wage on my writing endeavors this year and it's not even halfway through the year. It requires relentless labor, multiple products, and ruthless control of overhead and production expenses, but it's going quite comfortably for me and I only even started this about five years ago. I firmly believe that a more talented writer with a good grasp of business operations and the necessary production skills can do as well or better.

Now toss in the added bonus of if you can do your own art, or have a friend or family member who will for free then your initial costs drop even more. Sure its more work for you. But its also potentially hundreds or even thousands saved. Once Susan switched to doing all the art for Dragon Storm the production costs dropped massively. Dont have the exact numbers on hand. But 20 pieces by Ne-Ne cost around 8000$. Think about that. 2000 starters had to be sold just to make up the cost of one artist.

Quote from: Chainsaw;902355A well planned KS can eliminate a lot of working capital and inventory risk, benefitting everyone, but sadly business acumen and game product creation prowess are not always linked, so plenty of guys still fuck it up.

.....and then there are fraud horror stories like Ken Whitman.

Quote from: jeff37923;902505.....and then there are fraud horror stories like Ken Whitman.

Luckily those are in the extreme minority; more often is the exceptionally long delays by people who on't understand exactly what they're doing before they have the Kickstarter. As I only seem to hear about kickstarters in regards to this hobby, these seem to be relatively common with rpgs and boardgames, much less so for miniatures, and I have no idea how prevalent it is in other categories.

Honestly I get more frustrated by kickstarters whereupon that ends up being the only way to get the product, and they never actually make it to or intend an actual retail presence. There's a lot of stuff thats been successful KS, the backers get it, then you never hear about it again.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;902453Not just plenty, most do.

In my experience, unless you count delays, those are the extreme minority.

Quote from: AsenRG;902530In my experience, unless you count delays, those are the extreme minority.

When the "delays" start turning into years... for some it effectively is a failure.

Though hate to say it. but its sometimes rather hilarious to watch some backers freak out over a mere 2 year or even one year delay when there are games delayed 3 or 4 years, probably some even longer. Game Salute has this down to a science now.

Quote from: Omega;902546[...] hilarious to watch some backers freak out over a mere 2 year or even one year delay when there are games delayed 3 or 4 years, probably some even longer. Game Salute has this down to a science now.

In the real world, if you contract to provide a service or good by a certain date and you don't, you can and will get sued for breach of contract.  Some contracts include hefty penalties for missing delivery dates.

I know that Kickstarter doesn't explicitly contain clauses like this, but it's really not unreasonable for people to expect a delivery date promise to be honoured.  "Everyone else misses their ship dates by a mile" isn't much of a defense.

Quote from: daniel_ream;902562In the real world, if you contract to provide a service or good by a certain date and you don't, you can and will get sued for breach of contract.  Some contracts include hefty penalties for missing delivery dates.

I know that Kickstarter doesn't explicitly contain clauses like this, but it's really not unreasonable for people to expect a delivery date promise to be honoured.  "Everyone else misses their ship dates by a mile" isn't much of a defense.

While I think it is fair to expect things on time, I also think giving someone money before something is done always carries risk. Especially when it is clear there are a lot of people using this who don't have prior experience launching a Kickstarter. Folks really ought to be cautious before handing strangers online cash. Heck there was a huge fiasco with a non-RPG Kickstarter where the guy handling the money used hundreds of thousands of it to build his dream home (it looks like he will be doing jail time). I am very reluctant to back a Kickstarter and when I do, I assume any money I put in mind never be honored.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;902567I am very reluctant to back a Kickstarter and when I do, I assume any money I put in mind never be honored.

I think that's far too negative.

Do a little research. Are they an established company, who are putting their reputation on the line? Do they have experience managing small RPG projects from start to finish (which means all the stuff that has nothing to do with writing), like Kevin Crawford or Greg Stolze? Do they seem to understand the business process, and does it look like they've explored the costs for things like shipping (including international), printing, art, and so on? Those go in the positive column.

Is their sole experience in the RPG industry as a freelancer writer? (Even if you recognize their name, that doesn't mean they know anything about editing, art direction, layout, printing, taxes, etc.) Do they just have some vague "idea", and little idea how to implement it? Do they have past failed projects? Does the risks and challenges section include the words "if I'm hit by a bus"? Are they promising too much, in the stretch goals? Those are all major negatives.

That won't catch every fiasco (ahem GMS), but it helps apportion risk. And negatives don't mean AVOID UNCLEAN -- it just means those projects are higher risk. Decide how much risk you're willing to accept, and allocate your money appropriately.

I don't have any problem occasionally throwing some money in the direction of a high risk project that sounds interesting, especially if the creator is enthusiastic. I don't put as much money in high risk projects as I do in lower-risk projects, and I'm less likely to back them in the first place, but I do back those kinds of projects because I think they're the whole point of Kickstarter. Not preordering the latest set of Reaper minis (yawn), but helping some outsider make their dream become reality. If it fails, too bad. I'm out a few bucks. But when it succeeds, it's really cool.

And most projects succeed, though it requires adjusting expectations a bit. Because, let's be honest, Kickstarters never finish on time. (There are exceptions, but they're so rare that bringing them up is misleading). And they might not achieve everything that was promised. But out-and-out failures, where someone just blows through (or even more rarely, walks away with) the money and the backers end up with zilch? That's fairly rare.

This isn't a rich industry. There's not a big pile of cash that attracts vultures who don't give a shit about RPGs, and just want $$$. It's a hobby industry. Excepting scum like Whitman, everybody has good intentions. It's safe to assume that anyone who starts a Kickstarter is really excited, really wants it to succeed, and really wants to share their cool idea with others. Failures are almost always failures, not malice. Underbudgeting. Not understanding the logistics. Promising too much. Not accounting for shipping. Forgetting taxes. A million other things.

Though when Kickstarters go bad, they're rarely handled well. Usually, there's dead silence. Things start going bad, backers start demanding, the tone turns hostile, and it's easier just to curl up and hide. Occasionally, this turns into hostility and blaming. And I've never seen a failed Kickstarter where the creator admits that in a timely fashion, provides a solid accounting of where the money went, returns what's left, and calls it quits. So yeah, there will be some of that.

Quote from: daniel_ream;902562In the real world, if you contract to provide a service or good by a certain date and you don't, you can and will get sued for breach of contract.  Some contracts include hefty penalties for missing delivery dates.

I know that Kickstarter doesn't explicitly contain clauses like this, but it's really not unreasonable for people to expect a delivery date promise to be honoured.  "Everyone else misses their ship dates by a mile" isn't much of a defense.

Well said.  I think the way to do a KS is to have the product done, except for the high cost stuff or art and layout for printing.  Then that should all be planned and ready to go if funding is provided.  THEN, keep your KS money in a separate account so you can refund fairly if you ever need to, e.g. your artists flake on you, the publisher jacks prices on you.  With tiers and number of max members per tier, combined with minimum funding level you should be able to cover costs.

Quote from: daniel_ream;902562In the real world, if you contract to provide a service or good by a certain date and you don't, you can and will get sued for breach of contract.  Some contracts include hefty penalties for missing delivery dates.

I know that Kickstarter doesn't explicitly contain clauses like this, but it's really not unreasonable for people to expect a delivery date promise to be honoured.  "Everyone else misses their ship dates by a mile" isn't much of a defense.

See, thing is, you're not "contracting" via Kickstarter. Kickstarter is, for all intents and purposes, a venture capital site. You are investing when you contribute to a Kickstarter. It's just that instead of stock or dividends, you're getting stuff.

And sometimes ventures fall through. People can still get sued for that, but as I understand it you generally have to prove misconduct. Investment is a risk, you don't always get what you want from it.

Quote from: daniel_ream;902562In the real world, if you contract to provide a service or good by a certain date and you don't, you can and will get sued for breach of contract.  Some contracts include hefty penalties for missing delivery dates.

I know that Kickstarter doesn't explicitly contain clauses like this, but it's really not unreasonable for people to expect a delivery date promise to be honoured.  "Everyone else misses their ship dates by a mile" isn't much of a defense.

Was more referring to people who freak out at delays when there were obvious red flags or the company has a known track record of monsterous delays. No one backing a Game Salute game now has any right to bitch when it is inevitibly late. And seen a few too many backers who start complaining at any delay. But as you note. That is part of the many misconceptions of what KS is. And not helped in that some publishers are using KS as essentially a store front to buy goods.

Personally I get irked with campaigns that set a date that doesnt seem realistic based on whats been shown. Which seems increasingly a ploy now to trick backers. Sure sometimes its just that the campaign did not expect the level of success they got and now have to scramble to cover an order larger than they thought.

I wouldnt mind so much of they at least admitted they miscalculated and set a more sane date rather than pushing the date back every 2 months.

Posterchild for that is currently HeroQuest 25th. Assuming a prodigious rate of mini sculpting. There was no way theyd be done in less than a year. And sure enough 2 years later they are still sculpting. Though nearly done and close to my projected timeline of being done around December 2016

Eh.

Quote from: Omega;902695Posterchild for that is currently HeroQuest 25th. Assuming a prodigious rate of mini sculpting. There was no way theyd be done in less than a year. And sure enough 2 years later they are still sculpting. Though nearly done and close to my projected timeline of being done around December 2016

Uh... maybe not...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2113976860/heroquest-25th-anniversary

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;902567Heck there was a huge fiasco with a non-RPG Kickstarter where the guy handling the money used hundreds of thousands of it to build his dream home (it looks like he will be doing jail time). I am very reluctant to back a Kickstarter and when I do, I assume any money I put in mind never be honored.

Was that Doom that Came to Atlantic City?

He didnt just buy a house. He bought movie making equipment and made at least one indie movie on the sly.

Quote from: Crüesader;902696Uh... maybe not...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2113976860/heroquest-25th-anniversary

It went to another European KS and funded there. Lanzanos. (After getting canned a second time on a second non-US KS type).

http://www.lanzanos.com/proyectos/heroquest-25-aniversario/necesidades/ (http://www.lanzanos.com/proyectos/heroquest-25-aniversario/necesidades/)

And despite the red flags on the KS, before it was shut down it had garnered I believe around 300k US in just the short time it was up.

It was Moon Design. The folks doing one of the RuneQuest RPGs that shut down the Kickstarter after GZ refused to provide proof that they actually had the permissions from Hasbro to use the game that they claimed they did. Its a long sordid story still playing out.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;902567While I think it is fair to expect things on time, I also think giving someone money before something is done always carries risk. Especially when it is clear there are a lot of people using this who don't have prior experience launching a Kickstarter. Folks really ought to be cautious before handing strangers online cash. Heck there was a huge fiasco with a non-RPG Kickstarter where the guy handling the money used hundreds of thousands of it to build his dream home (it looks like he will be doing jail time). I am very reluctant to back a Kickstarter and when I do, I assume any money I put in mind never be honored.

You know, there's a certain kickstarter for the 'spiritual successor' to a certain shut-down superhero MMORPG that had a shitload of developers with ZERO actual game development experience, the writers had never written anything professionally, and the artists were... lousy.

People threw over $600k at this game.

It's been 3 years and all I've seen is a little video where it shows a landscape that the average 3d artist can make in a few days.

I'm convinced they took the money and ran.

Quote from: Jetstream;902677See, thing is, you're not "contracting" via Kickstarter. Kickstarter is, for all intents and purposes, a venture capital site. You are investing when you contribute to a Kickstarter. It's just that instead of stock or dividends, you're getting stuff.

And sometimes ventures fall through. People can still get sued for that, but as I understand it you generally have to prove misconduct. Investment is a risk, you don't always get what you want from it.

That's utterly false. A Kickstarter is not an investment. Investments involve putting up capital or assets, in expectation of a financial return. Almost all RPG Kickstarters involve paying money for a future product. There's no equity involved, that's a preorder. Investments like those made by venture capital firms are completely different (and very heavily regulated, simply because they're so high risk; you have to be a very high-wealth individual to even participate).

And the agreement between the backers and the creator of a project is absolutely a contract. Even before the terms of service were changed a couple years ago to make it explicit[1], it was a contract. There's no way to dispute that, because that's what a contract is: An agreement between two people to exchange X for Y. In this case, money for the rewards. While it generally won't make any financial sense to try to enforce the contract (for the simple reason that individual backers generally only lose a small amount, so even talking to a lawyer would cost more than any conceivable return), it's still a contract.

[1] "When a creator posts a project on Kickstarter, they’re inviting other people to form a contract with them. Anyone who backs a project is accepting the creator’s offer, and forming that contract." (https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use)

Quote from: Omega;902699Was that Doom that Came to Atlantic City?

He didnt just buy a house. He bought movie making equipment and made at least one indie movie on the sly.

I think he was referring to Peachy Printer: http://hackaday.com/2016/05/11/peachy-printer-collapses-investor-built-a-house-instead-of-a-printer/ (http://hackaday.com/2016/05/11/peachy-printer-collapses-investor-built-a-house-instead-of-a-printer/)

Quote from: Crüesader;902701I'm convinced they took the money and ran.

Probably not.  THey've probably been working their asses off and are realizing how over-their-heads they are.

Quote from: daniel_ream;902562In the real world, if you contract to provide a service or good by a certain date and you don't, you can and will get sued for breach of contract.  Some contracts include hefty penalties for missing delivery dates.

I know that Kickstarter doesn't explicitly contain clauses like this, but it's really not unreasonable for people to expect a delivery date promise to be honoured.  "Everyone else misses their ship dates by a mile" isn't much of a defense.

Exactly.

Quote from: AsenRG;902530In my experience, unless you count delays, those are the extreme minority.

Delays count.  If you cannot deliver a product on time, why should I trust anything else0 you say?  (General you, not AsenRG specific you.)

Quote from: Jetstream;902677See, thing is, you're not "contracting" via Kickstarter. Kickstarter is, for all intents and purposes, a venture capital site. You are investing when you contribute to a Kickstarter. It's just that instead of stock or dividends, you're getting stuff.

And sometimes ventures fall through. People can still get sued for that, but as I understand it you generally have to prove misconduct. Investment is a risk, you don't always get what you want from it.

That's just it, it doesn't say you are investing.  Also, Investors actually have a say in what the end product looks like.

Quote from: Jetstream;902677See, thing is, you're not "contracting" via Kickstarter. Kickstarter is, for all intents and purposes, a venture capital site. You are investing when you contribute to a Kickstarter. It's just that instead of stock or dividends, you're getting stuff.

And sometimes ventures fall through. People can still get sued for that, but as I understand it you generally have to prove misconduct. Investment is a risk, you don't always get what you want from it.

Dude, this investing shit really needs to stop right now ! Do you know that you can buy stuff that is not currently existing, like a house which only exists in the architect's mind ? And investing means that you get some sort of ownership on the brand, product or whatever that will result of this investment, which is not the case in the standard KS !

Quote from: yabaziou;902727Dude, this investing shit really needs to stop right now ! Do you know that you can buy stuff that is not currently existing, like a house which only exists in the architect's mind ? And investing means that you get some sort of ownership on the brand, product or whatever that will result of this investment, which is not the case in the standard KS !

Thing is, Jetstream and most other posters, on this thread don't understand that, in fact, most people who crowdfund don't.  Kickstarter, Indie-Go-Go and all them other sites are actually nothing more than a pre-ordering system, you put money down on a promise and when if gets fully funded you hope to the Flying Spaghetti Monster that they deliver.

Now, the big problem?  Most people rarely put down anything worth worrying about so if it does get delayed, or worst case scenario, cancelled, most of them will be angry, but will often write it off as a 'chance' they took.

It also doesn't help that most who go to a crowdfunding site to fund their little project have little to no business acumen and will pile on goodie after goodie, not realizing just how much of an overhead they're creating for themselves as they suddenly have to fulfill all these orders that their original estimate doesn't cover.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;902723Delays count.  If you cannot deliver a product on time, why should I trust anything else0 you say?

Sure delay counts. But late delivery is a lot better than no delivery.

Even real, live, professional retailers, wholesalers, and manufacturers end up with delayed delivery - products on back-order, shortages, factory closures, recalls, shipping errors, and lossage may cause your product not to be in your hands on time. Unless the product is right there, sitting on a shelf you are taking a risk when you pay money for the product "on order." The risk is less with established providers. Unsurprisingly, the risk is higher when you deal with amateurs. But if a brick and mortar store takes your money and your order and then goes bankrupt you aren't likely to ever see your product, on time or otherwise, and you will be lucky to get pennies on the dollar pay back for your order.

QuoteAlso, Investors actually have a say in what the end product looks like.

They may. They may not. Depends on the terms of the investment. And I've participated in a kickstarter where I was given a say in what the end product looked like. But neither point has anything at all to do with kickstarters not being investments.

Quote from: Bren;903452Sure delay counts. But late delivery is a lot better than no delivery.

Even real, live, professional retailers, wholesalers, and manufacturers end up with delayed delivery - products on back-order, shortages, factory closures, recalls, shipping errors, and lossage may cause your product not to be in your hands on time. Unless the product is right there, sitting on a shelf you are taking a risk when you pay money for the product "on order." The risk is less with established providers. Unsurprisingly, the risk is higher when you deal with amateurs. But if a brick and mortar store takes your money and your order and then goes bankrupt you aren't likely to ever see your product, on time or otherwise, and you will be lucky to get pennies on the dollar pay back for your order.

This is a strawman and you know it.  It's very rare for a product to be consistently late at delivery, simply because legal fees and contract fees are expensive.

Quote from: Bren;903452They may. They may not. Depends on the terms of the investment. And I've participated in a kickstarter where I was given a say in what the end product looked like. But neither point has anything at all to do with kickstarters not being investments.

You're right.  Because Kickstarters are NOT an investment.  They have said so, themselves.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;903460This is a strawman and you know it. It's very rare for a product to be consistently late at delivery, simply because legal fees and contract fees are expensive.

I don't think you understood what I said. Comparing the purchase of a product not currently on a store's shelf and a kickstarter is not a strawman. Nor is it at all rare for a back ordered or out of stock product to have a sometimes lengthy delay before arrival. Either you misunderstood what I said or you are extremely young, sheltered, or naive. And the notion that a consumer is going to sue the corner store for legal and contract fees over a $50 consumer purchase that is still on back order is either a complete misunderstanding of ordinary retail and wholesale transactions or utter cluelessness about the ordinary purchase process of goods not currently sitting on a shelf.  

QuoteYou're right.  Because Kickstarters are NOT an investment.  They have said so, themselves.

Also water in the general temperature range of 0 to 100 degrees C is wet, dog bites man is not newsworthy, and the midnight buffet starts at 12:00AM. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Bren;903462And the notion that a consumer is going to sue the corner store for legal and contract fees over a $50 consumer purchase that is still on back order is either a complete misunderstanding of ordinary retail and wholesale transactions or utter cluelessness about the ordinary purchase process of goods not currently sitting on a shelf.  

Usually the consumer doesn't pay until the product actually arrives, though. Sure if I ordered £60 of stuff from my FLGS and they didn't deliver or refund, eventually I would sue them in small claims court.

Quote from: S'mon;903505Usually the consumer doesn't pay until the product actually arrives, though. Sure if I ordered £60 of stuff from my FLGS and they didn't deliver or refund, eventually I would sue them in small claims court.

Would you, if the store was a thousand miles away, and you didn't hear, until months after the fact, that they closed up shop and vanished?

That's probably closest to what happens when a Kickstarter fails. First, excuses, then more excuses. Then longer and longer delays between excuses, until finally it's been months and months and nobody's heard anything.

Reading between the lines of the original post it seems that what he's really complaining about isn't people buying overpriced shit so much as being angry that he has competitors undercutting him with their "underpriced" products. The simple fact is that retail (and distributors) take a big cut out of the final price just to keep the lights on never mind their own profits so people who sell their shit online can either make a lot more money per book or undercut the people who are distributing their shit.

For example on Fred Hick's blog he, like SineNomine in this thread, gives a breakdown of where the money goes. He makes so little money off of his books being sent to distribution that they're basically serving as advertising for his online sales more than anything. If he had to rely on brick and motor retail sales then Evil Hat would never have gotten off the ground the profits per book are so miniscule.

So if you're doing things the old fashioned way and selling your stuff through distribution you have to either:
-Cut production costs to the bone and stop all the glossy color shit.
-Put yourself in a position in which one bomb can wipe out your company.
-Charge a lot of money and get undercut by people who've cut out the retail middle man.
-Be so big that you get economies of scale on printing.
-Give up on distribution as a real source of money and compete with a thousand and one guys selling POD books for beer money online.

Doesn't really seem workable, hence the frustration in the linked post. Still remarkably stupid to rage against your business model becoming obsolete by telling your customers to give you more money for doing the same shit that other people will do for less.

Overall think that the way that the market is changing is a good thing. The RPG market is small enough that it really can't support many publishers large enough to have a stable of freelancers who produce shiny glossy shit but it is large enough to support a vast army of people producing stuff with low production costs, B&W art and no middlemen from companies that are mostly one man bands or hobbies done by people with day jobs. I get a whole lot more interesting shit with the second option and it's cheaper too.

Really wish more companies would look into cheaper options. The real way to make money with RPGs is to sell stuff to players since there are a lot more players than GMs but if the first thing a player needs to buy is a big expansive pretty 600-page book then they'll never get started and only the GM will ever buy your book. Give players a the option of a bare bones no art book that just tells them stuff they need to know excerpted out of the core book, or better yet an SRD. An SRD is vastly more valuable than even a PDF to me, so much easier to navigate and no art getting in the way when I'm trying to look stuff up.

Quote from: S'mon;903505Usually the consumer doesn't pay until the product actually arrives, though. Sure if I ordered £60 of stuff from my FLGS and they didn't deliver or refund, eventually I would sue them in small claims court.

If you think that would be worth your while for such a small amount, I would assume you've either never been to small claims court or have nothing better to do with your day than sit around waiting for your case to come up on the docket and hoping there's a way to actually collect even if you win a judgment.

Quote from: Daztur;903513Overall think that the way that the market is changing is a good thing. The RPG market is small enough that it really can't support many publishers large enough to have a stable of freelancers who produce shiny glossy shit but it is large enough to support a vast army of people producing stuff with low production costs, B&W art and no middlemen from companies that are mostly one man bands or hobbies done by people with day jobs. I get a whole lot more interesting shit with the second option and it's cheaper too.

I agree as well that the ongoing changes are a good thing. In the 70s there were only a few ways of distributing your work. With huge gulfs between the choices. Now we have dozens of methods for distributing a creative work and get paid. The old methods still work for some as we still have bookstores and games store stocking RPG products and ordering them from distributors. People People who hand sell zines and products at conventions, etc, etc. But alongside that we have the new paths of Print on Demand, PDF stores, personal web stores, etc.

Quote from: Pat;903507Would you, if the store was a thousand miles away, and you didn't hear, until months after the fact, that they closed up shop and vanished?

You do know what FLGS means, right?

No, I probably would not bother suing an online retailer.

Quote from: Matt;903528If you think that would be worth your while for such a small amount, I would assume you've either never been to small claims court or have nothing better to do with your day than sit around waiting for your case to come up on the docket and hoping there's a way to actually collect even if you win a judgment.

I have been both a litigant (settled) and a defendant (lost), actually. :p I'd do it for honour, which is the reason I fought the losing case to judgment.

Quote from: S'mon;903505Usually the consumer doesn't pay until the product actually arrives, though. Sure if I ordered £60 of stuff from my FLGS and they didn't deliver or refund, eventually I would sue them in small claims court.

Ordering online (probably the closest example to a kickstarter) you often do pay before the product arrives. Sometimes you don't find out until after you've paid that the product is currently out of stock and on back order. Even if you go through a brick and mortar retailer, they sometimes want money up front before ordering certain items. Undoubtedly they will refund your money if the item fails to come in after some length of time...always assuming that store is still in business.

As an example, when we lived in the UK my wife bought a nice set of dishes from a major UK retailer. The dishes she ordered were not available in the local store, so she ordered from the retailer online. We were charged for the dishes. However, the dishes were back ordered or out of stock for months. When they finally arrived they were (a) broken and (b) not all there. Resolving that mess took at least another month, many phone calls and trips to the local store, and two more shipments before all the order arrived intact. This was resolved shortly before we moved. Which is fortunate, as suing them from 3600 miles across an ocean would be just a bit inconvenient.

You'd be better off choosing a retailer that doesn't bill you until the product is shipped.

Anyone who has the time to go to small claims court over a small amount for the same of honor, more power to you. I'd lose more in PTO than it'd be worth to me even if I won and collected.

Quote from: estar;903531I agree as well that the ongoing changes are a good thing. In the 70s there were only a few ways of distributing your work. With huge gulfs between the choices. Now we have dozens of methods for distributing a creative work and get paid. The old methods still work for some as we still have bookstores and games store stocking RPG products and ordering them from distributors. People People who hand sell zines and products at conventions, etc, etc. But alongside that we have the new paths of Print on Demand, PDF stores, personal web stores, etc.

Yup just hoping more people change up the format a bit. The glossy full color hardbacks are more of a symptom of the hobby's retreat from the mass market into boutique status and don't really do the hobby much good. Being able to get good solid pdfs for a few bucks is great but having the electronic version of a game be a straight one for one conversion of a book really seems like a failure of imagination as pdfs aew often a pain to reference especially on a cell phone. One reason I stuck with 3.5ed and SotC as long as I did was that their SRDs made everything so much easier to navigate and look shit up.

Wouldn't mind an OSR subscription service where new contwnt got added every month and I could look up shit on my cell. Kind of like the 4ed subscription thingie except for not sucking so hard.

Quote from: Matt;903528If you think that would be worth your while for such a small amount, I would assume you've either never been to small claims court or have nothing better to do with your day than sit around waiting for your case to come up on the docket and hoping there's a way to actually collect even if you win a judgment.

BINGO!  The legal process to actually collect after the judgement is ten times the pain in the tonker.

Quote from: S'mon;903536You do know what FLGS means, right?

No, I probably would not bother suing an online retailer.

Yes, in fact that's the point I was making. I was pointing out a major way that Kickstarters are significantly different from FLGSs. And the logistical and legal hurdles of many small backers distributed over a wide area is one of the reasons why it's hard to hold creators accountable.

An economy is largely built on mutual trust, which is why Kickstarter (mostly) works. Most parties are acting in good faith. But the legal and regulatory repercussions are also important, not because they give people what they're owed (even if that happens, it's a risk; there's a cost in time, effort, and fees; there might be no money to take back; and it's just generally a pain in the ass), but because they discourage bad actors. That's largely lacking from Kickstarters. The only practical recourse backers have is spreading the word, but even that doesn't seem to work. People who have acted in bad faith and screwed over their backers, like Elizabeth Shoemaker Sampat, are still getting work from major companies and invited to panels.

Quote from: Pat;903648An economy is largely built on mutual trust, which is why Kickstarter (mostly) works. Most parties are acting in good faith.

I often teach e-Commerce Law to students from around the world. By far the biggest bar to e-commerce in most countries is lack of trust - consumers don't trust that products will be shipped, sellers don't trust consumers, banks don't trust either of them.

Quote from: Daztur;903608Yup just hoping more people change up the format a bit. The glossy full color hardbacks are more of a symptom of the hobby's retreat from the mass market into boutique status and don't really do the hobby much good. Being able to get good solid pdfs for a few bucks is great but having the electronic version of a game be a straight one for one conversion of a book really seems like a failure of imagination as pdfs aew often a pain to reference especially on a cell phone. One reason I stuck with 3.5ed and SotC as long as I did was that their SRDs made everything so much easier to navigate and look shit up.

The biggest reason you don't see born-digital products like this is because they require an entirely separate production workflow with a skillset and distribution channels largely divorced from those of book publishing.

If you build your PDF correctly, the only difference between a PDF and a print file is how you export the document. There is only a trifling amount of extra work necessary to get the thing into print. If you want to create a digital resource, however, you have to rethink your entire presentation, code it up using skills that have nothing to do with book publishing, then release it through channels that have little or nothing to do with tabletop RPG sales. There's no pre-existing market clamoring for digital resources the way that people clutch for hardbacks, and without that market, there are very few publishers incentivized to serve it. Mix this in with the fact that the vast majority of RPG shops are one-man outfits, and it essentially asks for RPG publishers to be combination writer/art director/publisher/programmer/UI designer/project manager/entrepreneurs. Anybody who has that particular skillset to a high degree of competence can find much, much more remunerative things to do than make RPG-book apps.

Call me ignorant, but I have a few questions about Kickstarters-

-Have there been any cases where someone has gone to court over them?

-Are there any 'laws' or even 'service rules' about pitching 'will do X at $15000' and not delivering that?

-Is there any truth to the rumor that Onyx Path uses Kickstarters to fund development entirely, and pockets all the profits?

Quote from: Crüesader;903682Call me ignorant, but I have a few questions about Kickstarters-

OK. You are ignorant.

Quote-Have there been any cases where someone has gone to court over them?

Yes (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/feds-take-first-action-against-a-failed-kickstarter-with-112k-judgment/).

Quote-Are there any 'laws' or even 'service rules' about pitching 'will do X at $15000' and not delivering that?

I wouldn't expect a law that was quite that specific. Clearly there are laws that apply to kickstarters.

Quote-Is there any truth to the rumor that Onyx Path uses Kickstarters to fund development entirely, and pockets all the profits?

Probably not.

I remember hearing this same line from Gareth-Michael Skarka a decade or more ago.  He had the same reasoning arising from the same entitlement mentality.  I want to work full time writing RPG material (living in New York City iirc) therefore I deserve to be able to do that therefore RPG buyers were obliged to pay whatever prices will make that happen.  He was rather bent out of shape when people declined to pay more to enable him to do just what he wanted to do and live just where he wanted to live while doing it.  I also remember him deciding that every person in a group needs their own copy of the game and that any player who is sharing someone else's copy is stealing.  Yes, you read that right.  If you are running a game using the GM's copy, all of the players are dirty thieves stealing from him.  All of them must buy their own copy.  The entitlement mentality of some of these people is astounding though I shouldn't really be surprised any more.

I know I feel like a thief every time I don't play Buckaroo Banzai that I preordered...oh wait, got that backwards, it feels like he's a thief...something like that.  At least I can play all these copies of Far West...

Quote from: Bren;903685OK. You are ignorant.

Call me a taxi.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;903749Call me a taxi.

ok taxi

Quote from: Matt;903747I know I feel like a thief every time I don't play Buckaroo Banzai that I preordered...oh wait, got that backwards, it feels like he's a thief...something like that.  At least I can play all these copies of Far West...

(https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/65218168.jpg)

Quote from: Pat;902212Horseshit. Even the hyper-progressive Huffington Post agrees (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/18/minimum-wage-worth-less-than-1968_n_3461568.html) that, adjusted for inflation, the minimum wage peaked at $1.60 in 1968. In 2016 dollars, that's $11.00 (http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm).

You and the 5 people who upvoted your post are idiots. It's bad enough that statistics lie, on their own. You don't have to lie for them.

Full Stop-

First off, don't quote the Huffington Post and call me an idiot. If you want to site something that's perfectly fine. However, I have an even better site if you want to take a look and this one does an even better job of making your point.

Link: https://tedtheeconomist.wordpress.com/2015/06/17/the-minimum-wage-adjusted-for-inflation-is-biased-propaganda/

I hate to break it too you but economist are people and people often disagree. Economist disagree a lot. I might of said something else here, had my own sources to site so on and so forth (and I do) which could have contributed to the conversation, but once you call me an idiot, especially for a reason I can't really perceive-other than issues I'm not privy to, cause their yours; I'm pretty much done.

If you can't be civil please don't address my points.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;903867First off, don't quote the Huffington Post and call me an idiot. If you want to site something that's perfectly fine. However, I have an even better site if you want to take a look and this one does an even better job of making your point.

That's an interesting site. While it's apples and oranges (he uses 1947/$0.40 as the base, while HP/Inequality use 1968/$1.60, which accounts for the ~x2.5 difference when adjusted by CPI or inflation), it looks like a valid attempt to address some of the real issues that so often get masked and manipulated and misused in the various media.

But while everyone makes mistakes, if you don't like being called out for blatant inaccuracies, that's on you. One of the very real problems with the internet, and modern media in general, is the amount of sheer nonsense that's spread. People hear something they want to hear, uncritically accept it, share it, and it spreads like wildfire and becomes part of the established narrative. And once that happens, it's almost impossible to correct. The most effective way to combat that flare of irreason is to stomp it out, the moment it appears. And if even the Huffington Post couldn't come up similar numbers, well....

So I think I can reasonably summarise the thread by saying there's a lot of sympathy to the idea that people should pay more for games so as to support designers and artists, yes? I mean, obviously not everyone agreed, but that seems to be the broad consensus. Interesting.

Quote from: D-503;903894So I think I can reasonably summarise the thread by saying there's a lot of sympathy to the idea that people should pay more for games so as to support designers and artists, yes? I mean, obviously not everyone agreed, but that seems to be the broad consensus. Interesting.

There is still the question which designer/artist.
And in the end the money will again go in the direction of those who produce material you can see a value in it and thus the problem that some are not able to do it as a full job still remains.

Quote from: D-503;903894So I think I can reasonably summarise the thread by saying there's a lot of sympathy to the idea that people should pay more for games so as to support designers and artists, yes? I mean, obviously not everyone agreed, but that seems to be the broad consensus. Interesting.

Funny, I got pretty much the opposite impression.

What a lot of people DO seem to agree with is "You can set any price tag for your work you like.  That doesn't mean I'll pay it."

Irony. It's not just for Christmas.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;902077Yeah and adjusting for inflation minimum wage here in the US should be about $35 to $38 dollars an hour...

Quote from: Pat;902212Horseshit. Even the hyper-progressive Huffington Post agrees (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/18/minimum-wage-worth-less-than-1968_n_3461568.html) that, adjusted for inflation, the minimum wage peaked at $1.60 in 1968. In 2016 dollars, that's $11.00 (http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm).

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;903867First off, don't quote the Huffington Post and call me an idiot. If you want to site something that's perfectly fine.

Maybe you'd listen to the Department of Labor (https://www.dol.gov/featured/minimum-wage/chart1)? They show a peak in the inflation adjusted minimum wage (based on 2012 dollars) in 1968, and the inflation calculator (from the Bureau of Labor Statistics) linked by Pat confirms that the $1.60 in 1968 is just over $11 in 2016 dollars. That is very much less than $35 to $38.

Quote from: Pat;903890That's an interesting site. While it's apples and oranges (he uses 1947/$0.40 as the base, while HP/Inequality use 1968/$1.60, which accounts for the ~x2.5 difference when adjusted by CPI or inflation), it looks like a valid attempt to address some of the real issues that so often get masked and manipulated and misused in the various media.

But while everyone makes mistakes, if you don't like being called out for blatant inaccuracies, that's on you. One of the very real problems with the internet, and modern media in general, is the amount of sheer nonsense that's spread. People hear something they want to hear, uncritically accept it, share it, and it spreads like wildfire and becomes part of the established narrative. And once that happens, it's almost impossible to correct. The most effective way to combat that flare of irreason is to stomp it out, the moment it appears. And if even the Huffington Post couldn't come up similar numbers, well....

And if you think calling people idiots is an acceptable form of calling people out that's on you.

I could have also have referenced some sites and materials that would point out why economists come up with the number $35 an hour. Instead I choose to give you something that will partially validate your points because that's likely what you need. In the future I ask that you remain respectful. And that is all that I ask since I'm not willing to discuss other matters with you further.

Please be respectful.

Quote from: rawma;903940Maybe you'd listen to the Department of Labor (https://www.dol.gov/featured/minimum-wage/chart1)? They show a peak in the inflation adjusted minimum wage (based on 2012 dollars) in 1968, and the inflation calculator (from the Bureau of Labor Statistics) linked by Pat confirms that the $1.60 in 1968 is just over $11 in 2016 dollars. That is very much less than $35 to $38.

Because the internet is never wrong..?
Because the government is never wrong..?

It is not about numbers, it's about the model that is used to calculate those numbers. As I said economist differ in opinion and those difference are often a matter of which is the appropriate model. My earlier post pointed something out using a very simple model to refute a posters point.

Numbers on a page don't mean anything. How did they get those numbers?

Certainly go ahead and PM it too me-if you find what you think looks like an accurate model. My wife has a BA in economics, it might make for some good pillow talk.

Sorry for the thread derail-

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;903867Full Stop-

First off, don't quote the Huffington Post and call me an idiot. If you want to site something that's perfectly fine. However, I have an even better site if you want to take a look and this one does an even better job of making your point.

Link: https://tedtheeconomist.wordpress.com/2015/06/17/the-minimum-wage-adjusted-for-inflation-is-biased-propaganda/

I hate to break it too you but economist are people and people often disagree. Economist disagree a lot. I might of said something else here, had my own sources to site so on and so forth (and I do) which could have contributed to the conversation, but once you call me an idiot, especially for a reason I can't really perceive-other than issues I'm not privy to, cause their yours; I'm pretty much done.

If you can't be civil please don't address my points.

I think you mean"cite" as in citation, not "site" as in location :P

Quote from: TristramEvans;903945I think you mean"cite" as in citation, not "site" as in location :P

Thank you, absolutely correct.

Quote from: rawma;903940Maybe you'd listen to the Department of Labor (https://www.dol.gov/featured/minimum-wage/chart1)? They show a peak in the inflation adjusted minimum wage (based on 2012 dollars) in 1968, and the inflation calculator (from the Bureau of Labor Statistics) linked by Pat confirms that the $1.60 in 1968 is just over $11 in 2016 dollars. That is very much less than $35 to $38.

The relevant question is can you live on $11/hour with the same quality of life that $1.60 an hour provided? And even depending on what that quality was in 1960, was the minimum wage too low even then? From what I understand, a single mother trying to support herself and her family on minimum wage jobs would generally need to work two or three jobs just to maintain a level of existence that most people would consider poverty.

The only relevant data is the number of people who are willing to pay the price you ask.  If you get anything near minimum wage you must be doing something right.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;903941And if you think calling people idiots is an acceptable form of calling people out that's on you.

I called you an idiot because you posted an idiotic claim, with no support. But I also treated you like an adult. I did not patronize you, took your assertion seriously, and provided an explanation, sources, and even pointed out why claims like yours are destructive.

You haven't called me idiot. But you've been patronizing ("I hate to break it to you..."), told me how I should post, refused to support your claim with even a single source, and just made vague kindergarten-level statements about how people sometimes disagree and the government is sometimes wrong, and that (unspecified) economists and your girlfriend agree with you.

No, you haven't called me an idiot. You're just treating me like a child.

Which in the world of adult discourse is a hell of lot worse than calling someone an idiot for doing something idiotic.

Quote from: Pat;903949I called you an idiot because you posted an idiotic claim, with no support. But I also treated you like an adult. I did not patronize you, took your assertion seriously, and provided an explanation, sources, and even pointed out why claims like yours are destructive.

You haven't called me idiot. But you've been patronizing ("I hate to break it to you..."), told me how I should post, refused to support your claim with even a single source, and just made vague kindergarten-level statements about how people sometimes disagree and the government is sometimes wrong, and that (unspecified) economists and your girlfriend agree with you.

No, you haven't called me an idiot. You're just treating me like a child.

Which in the world of adult discourse is a hell of lot worse than calling someone an idiot for doing something idiotic.

Hmmm...

So calling someone an idiot is ok. Patronizing them after they've called you an idiot is unacceptable.
I understand.

Anything else?

Quote from: Pat;903949I called you an idiot because you posted an idiotic claim, with no support. But I also treated you like an adult. I did not patronize you, took your assertion seriously, and provided an explanation, sources, and even pointed out why claims like yours are destructive.

I thought by therpgsite standards this was pretty good behaviour!

Just a note to anyone enjoying the drama.

If you call me an idiot I will patronize you. Neither will I have much interest in engaging your points.
If you cannot comprehend the concept that there is a difference between directly calling someone an idiot and saying that the point be made is false/misleading or idiotic, then their is little I can say to condemn the behavior.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;903960Hmmm...

So calling someone an idiot is ok. Patronizing them after they've called you an idiot is unacceptable.
I understand.

Anything else?

I never said it was unacceptable. That's the word you've been using, in your attempt to play word police. I said it was worse.

But only a post or two back, you were pretending to take the high road, after being hurt by a mean word. And now you just admitted you were actually being patronizing and passive-aggressive.

Since you've completely ceded the argument and admitted you took an even lower road, there's really not anything more to say.

Quote from: S'mon;903962I thought by therpgsite standards this was pretty good behaviour!

Incidentally, I did appreciate your response a few pages back. You took it with good humor, and based the other posts I've seen, you seem to hold thoughtful and considered opinions.

The culture of bluntness at the RPGSite is something I (occasionally) appreciate as well. If someone does or says something stupid, they're an idiot. It happens to all of us, and it's not a permanent thing. But while pretending that it's only the words, or only the argument, or only the idea that's idiotic -- and that somehow none of that applies to the person saying the words, or making the argument, or holding the idea -- can create a veneer of civility, it's just a veneer. The disagreements remain, so it becomes a tradeoff between some degree of in-your-faceness, and the "I'm not touching you!" dance.

Quote from: Pat;903968Incidentally, I did appreciate your response a few pages back. You took it with good humor, and based the other posts I've seen, you seem to hold thoughtful and considered opinions.

Thanks - yeah, I do hold thoughtful and considered opinions. :D I've had to do a lot of considering over the years, since the aftermath of 9/11 and especially the fallout of the 2003 Iraq invasion, showed me that much of what I had believed about the world, about people, was wrong.  I don't think most people ever go through that sort of reevaluation process.

Nevermind.

Nevermind.

Quote from: Bren;903685OK. You are ignorant.

And now, I was ignorant.  Thanks for your help here...

Quote from: Bren;903685Yes (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/feds-take-first-action-against-a-failed-kickstarter-with-112k-judgment/).

"The Federal Trade Commission has taken its first-ever action over a crowdfunding project, finding that its creator used "deceptive tactics" by raising more than $122,000 to create a board game—and then spending the money on things like rent, moving to Oregon, and personal equipment."

Uh... okay, let's just say I might be aware of a video game kickstarter that's pulled in over half a million.  And the problem is, it's been three years and there's barely anything to show for it (minus a few map renders and some 3d characters, but nothing resembling 'playable game').  After the fact, the developers claimed that the Kickstarter was for 'tools' and one particular developer entered into talks with another company to try and buy the IP.

I'm thinking it'd be a stretch, but one could say that the entire Kickstarter was misleading toward what the product was supposed to be.  I know one of the developers with no job purchased a home in a decent part of Seattle (apparently there is a decent part of that city, could've fooled me).  

It was this event in particular that keeps me from Kickstarters unless they've got something up front to show for it.

Hey, though- in all honesty thanks for the information.

Quote from: Crüesader;903981It was this event in particular that keeps me from Kickstarters unless they've got something up front to show for it.

Which is part of my issue with Kickstarter in general, most don't, because they need the money to actually prototype something first.  And even then, that prototype may not even be representative of the final product.

Quote from: Crüesader;903981And now, I was ignorant.  Thanks for your help here...



"The Federal Trade Commission has taken its first-ever action over a crowdfunding project, finding that its creator used "deceptive tactics" by raising more than $122,000 to create a board game—and then spending the money on things like rent, moving to Oregon, and personal equipment."

Uh... okay, let's just say I might be aware of a video game kickstarter that's pulled in over half a million.  And the problem is, it's been three years and there's barely anything to show for it (minus a few map renders and some 3d characters, but nothing resembling 'playable game').  After the fact, the developers claimed that the Kickstarter was for 'tools' and one particular developer entered into talks with another company to try and buy the IP.

I'm thinking it'd be a stretch, but one could say that the entire Kickstarter was misleading toward what the product was supposed to be.  I know one of the developers with no job purchased a home in a decent part of Seattle (apparently there is a decent part of that city, could've fooled me).  

It was this event in particular that keeps me from Kickstarters unless they've got something up front to show for it.

Hey, though- in all honesty thanks for the information.

The equipment he bought was... movie making equipment. He then made at least one indie movie while telling the backers that the money was gone, etc. Then when we brought all this to light. and I was one of those people who dug up the data. He scrambled to cover up and/or delete as much evidence as he could.

He left the designer and sculptor with nothing and if Cryptozoic hadnt stepped in then the game would still be DOA.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;904088Which is part of my issue with Kickstarter in general, most don't, because they need the money to actually prototype something first.  And even then, that prototype may not even be representative of the final product.

Project Elite
This is the sculp shown.
(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic2701193.jpg)

This is what will get.
(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic2701192_md.jpg)

Or Guardian Chronicles where they presented sculpts like this
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/projects/434618/posts/462054/image-245349-full.jpg?1366744929)

And then changed to digital sculpts that ended like this.
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/814/468/7c773499a4207327c2786339f75c125b_large.JPG?1396192378)

And Serpents Tongue where after the KS succeeded the designers decided to re-design the game. (Not by a huge amount Im told. But folk were annoyed.)

And others. The list grows monthly.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;904088Which is part of my issue with Kickstarter in general, most don't, because they need the money to actually prototype something first.  And even then, that prototype may not even be representative of the final product.

Project Elite
This is the sculp shown.
(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic2701193.jpg)

This is what will get.
(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic2701192_md.jpg)

Or Guardian Chronicles where they presented sculpts like this
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/projects/434618/posts/462054/image-245349-full.jpg?1366744929)

And then changed to digital sculpts that ended like this.
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/814/468/7c773499a4207327c2786339f75c125b_large.JPG?1396192378)

And Serpents Tongue where after the KS succeeded the designers decided to re-design the game. (Not by a huge amount Im told. But folk were annoyed.)

And others. The list grows monthly.

Quote from: Omega;904477And Serpents Tongue where after the KS succeeded the designers decided to re-design the game. (Not by a huge amount Im told. But folk were annoyed.)

Not familiar with that Kickstarter project, but what I can say is that if someone designs a game, launches their KS, then decides to redesign, that is a huge miss-step. Redesigns are fine, but they should all occur before the KS even launches. Do you know what caused the designer(s) to take a step back on the game's design AFTER the KS succeeded?

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;904483Not familiar with that Kickstarter project, but what I can say is that if someone designs a game, launches their KS, then decides to redesign, that is a huge miss-step. Redesigns are fine, but they should all occur before the KS even launches. Do you know what caused the designer(s) to take a step back on the game's design AFTER the KS succeeded?

No clue. But some backers felt like it was a bait-n-switch. Wasnt helped by the designers having a bit of an attitude problem initially. If I recall correctly it was simply that the designers had new ideas and implemented those instead of what had been presented on the KS. The game shipped and alot of players like it. But it didnt live up to the hype that had built up to the KS. I dont feel like digging through old threads to find out. I walked after they started announcing it was going to be a CCG.

I backed the Diehard minis Kickstarter and just about two months later received my miniatures. They are absolutely gorgeous. I'll be going all in for their next kickstarter slated for this fall.

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Quote from: Omega;904473The equipment he bought was... movie making equipment. He then made at least one indie movie while telling the backers that the money was gone, etc. Then when we brought all this to light. and I was one of those people who dug up the data. He scrambled to cover up and/or delete as much evidence as he could.

He left the designer and sculptor with nothing and if Cryptozoic hadnt stepped in then the game would still be DOA.

Yeah, a lot of what was bought in this Kickstarter I've mentioned was 'software and hardware'.  Of course, my main concern is that it's been several years and there's been nothing to show for it.  A rumor that I can't confirm is that several people who were attached to the project have been cut off from it.  That could be true, but there's a shitload of reasons for that.  After all, the game that this is supposed to be a 'Spiritual Successor' for was home of one of the worst types of gamers I've ever seen- and some of the people heading up that project strike me as loons.

Maybe one of those guys lucked out or something.  I dunno.  I just know when I didn't have a job at one point- there was no 'moving into a new house' without some income to pay to the bank.

Quote from: Matt;903747I know I feel like a thief every time I don't play Buckaroo Banzai that I preordered...oh wait, got that backwards, it feels like he's a thief...something like that.  At least I can play all these copies of Far West...

Skarka needs to be dragged into to court and shook upside down till the lint falls from his pockets.

Especially since he's so proud of the new product he put out with Adamant.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;904583Skarka needs to be dragged into to court and shook upside down till the lint falls from his pockets.

Especially since he's so proud of the new product he put out with Adamant.

Eh, Skarka's driven himself into irrelevancy with his continued delays - there's kickstarters I'm more annoyed at than his. (Admittedly, kickstarters that I put more money into than his.)  The project isn't complete, and I suspect it never will be, but he did deliver the short story collection and has delivered a partial pdf of the rpg.

On the other hand there's, oh, the Pulse Dice Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/adderlan/pulse-dice) by our own Anon Adderlan, who hasn't updated his kickstarter in over two years.  Or Apothesis Drive X (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/machineage/apotheosis-drive-x-a-fate-powered-mecha-rpg), where the creators have apparently fled the country.  Or the Bump in the Night (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/59124062/bump-in-the-night-rpg/description) kickstarter, whose last update over a year ago was an apology for not updating for so long.  Skarka at least is engaged, he posts to the project, he does regular updates.  Sure, he blows through his deadlines like spiderwebs in a haunted house, but he's still doing something.  These other folks have just walked away with the money.

Quote from: jcfiala;904634On the other hand there's, oh, the Pulse Dice Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/adderlan/pulse-dice) by our own Anon Adderlan, who hasn't updated his kickstarter in over two years.

The KS reads now shipping from warehouse? So they actually never shipped to backers?

Quote from: Omega;904641The KS reads now shipping from warehouse? So they actually never shipped to backers?

Reading the comments, it sounds like the project is just being ignored. No one seems to know anything and they can't get any sort of communication going, and as you can see the last update was years ago. At least guys like Skarka and Whitman put in the effort of making excuses and putting out false launch dates for their products every so often.

Quote from: Brand55;904650At least guys like Skarka and Whitman put in the effort of making excuses and putting out false launch dates for their products every so often.

I'm having a hard time deciding if I'd rather be lied to than ignored.

Quote from: Omega;904641The KS reads now shipping from warehouse? So they actually never shipped to backers?

That's correct.  I never saw any dice, and if you look around at the comments you'll see lots of folks have mentioned not seeing any dice either.

Quote from: Brand55;904650Reading the comments, it sounds like the project is just being ignored. No one seems to know anything and they can't get any sort of communication going, and as you can see the last update was years ago. At least guys like Skarka and Whitman put in the effort of making excuses and putting out false launch dates for their products every so often.

Yeah.  I mean, he posts here (http://www.therpgsite.com/member.php?3035-Anon-Adderlan) fairly regularly, but still hasn't actually done anything with the kickstarter in a while.  And again, at least Skarka has given out refunds to folks.  (Reluctantly, but reluctant money still spends just fine.)

Quote from: Bren;904652I'm having a hard time deciding if I'd rather be lied to than ignored.

Oh, from a consumer perspective you're getting crapped on either way. I was just saying at least the others put in more effort. And at least GMS has produced some stuff. I honestly never thought Icons Team-Up would come out, but I guess a PDF is better than nothing. Whitman is just a scam artist, though.

Quote from: Omega;904525No clue. But some backers felt like it was a bait-n-switch. Wasnt helped by the designers having a bit of an attitude problem initially. If I recall correctly it was simply that the designers had new ideas and implemented those instead of what had been presented on the KS. The game shipped and alot of players like it. But it didnt live up to the hype that had built up to the KS. I dont feel like digging through old threads to find out. I walked after they started announcing it was going to be a CCG.

No worries, just curious. I have curbed my KS spending a lot lately, partially due to stories like that.

Quote from: TristramEvans;904578I backed the Diehard minis Kickstarter and just about two months later received my miniatures. They are absolutely gorgeous. I'll be going all in for their next kickstarter slated for this fall.

That is fantastic! I'll have to keep an eye out for them.

Quote from: TristramEvans;904578I backed the Diehard minis Kickstarter and just about two months later received my miniatures. They are absolutely gorgeous. I'll be going all in for their next kickstarter slated for this fall.

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Those do look really good for minis.

On a related note I saw an add for writing game articles. The fellow offered to pay 20 cents per 100 views of the article with $1 bonus per 1000 views. Now my first question would be how many views is this site getting, but of course my natural reaction would be, "My real job pays me $23 an hour. Why on Earth would I want to write RPG material for anyone but myself?"

Quote from: Christopher Brady;902723Delays count.  If you cannot deliver a product on time, why should I trust anything else0 you say?  (General you, not AsenRG specific you.)

Yes, delays count. But even fucking Amazon experience delays! (Not for long, but they do - it happened with the delivery of my Eclipse Phase book).

Maybe this would help you, I don't know. Anyway, I have two very simple rules on KS.

"Never pledge more money on KS then half of what I'm comfortable just sending to The Red Cross".
"If I ever get ripped off on a KS, I'll send the same sum to the Red Cross as soon as I give up".
Clear enough? I'm either getting something for it, or it is all charity.
What these rules ensure is that I'm never going to feel hurt, ripped-off, or anything.
BTW, I've never had to refer to the second rule;).

Quote from: Krimson;905017On a related note I saw an add for writing game articles. The fellow offered to pay 20 cents per 100 views of the article with $1 bonus per 1000 views. Now my first question would be how many views is this site getting, but of course my natural reaction would be, "My real job pays me $23 an hour. Why on Earth would I want to write RPG material for anyone but myself?"

If it's the same site I'm thinking of, the answer was "7-10k unique views/month":D. You can do the math.

Quote from: AsenRG;9050301 But even fucking Amazon experience delays! (Not for long, but they do - it happened with the delivery of my Eclipse Phase book).

2Maybe this would help you, I don't know. Anyway, I have two very simple rules on KS.

"Never pledge more money on KS then half of what I'm comfortable just sending to The Red Cross".
"If I ever get ripped off on a KS, I'll send the same sum to the Red Cross as soon as I give up".
Clear enough? I'm either getting something for it, or it is all charity.
What these rules ensure is that I'm never going to feel hurt, ripped-off, or anything.
BTW, I've never had to refer to the second rule;).

1. I can attest to that as well. My copy of Bethorm ("will arrive in 2-4 business days") took fucking 2 weeks to get to me, due to dishonesty and incompetence on Amazon's part. BTW, for what it's worth, they have  some of the worst customer service reps I've ever encountered.

2. This is a good way to look at it. I've never participated in a KS, but if I do I'll make sure to keep this strategy in mind.

Shemek

Amusingly last week I had a package that said it was out for delivery... 2200 miles away on the other side of the continent. I contacted Amazon and they said it would be redirected and I would receive it that afternoon. I was like "Yeah right" and yet when I got home, the package was there waiting for me. No idea how they managed that.

Quote from: Krimson;905117Amusingly last week I had a package that said it was out for delivery... 2200 miles away on the other side of the continent. I contacted Amazon and they said it would be redirected and I would receive it that afternoon. I was like "Yeah right" and yet when I got home, the package was there waiting for me. No idea how they managed that.

Amazing. Whereas my package was supposedly 50km from my home, yet they had to ship it from a supplier 4100km away.

Shemek

Quote from: Krimson;905117Amusingly last week I had a package that said it was out for delivery... 2200 miles away on the other side of the continent. I contacted Amazon and they said it would be redirected and I would receive it that afternoon. I was like "Yeah right" and yet when I got home, the package was there waiting for me. No idea how they managed that.

My guess would be that they redirected an identical item that was already nearby.

Quote from: AsenRG;905030Yes, delays count. But even fucking Amazon experience delays! (Not for long, but they do - it happened with the delivery of my Eclipse Phase book).

Maybe this would help you, I don't know. Anyway, I have two very simple rules on KS.

"Never pledge more money on KS then half of what I'm comfortable just sending to The Red Cross".
"If I ever get ripped off on a KS, I'll send the same sum to the Red Cross as soon as I give up".
Clear enough? I'm either getting something for it, or it is all charity.
What these rules ensure is that I'm never going to feel hurt, ripped-off, or anything.
BTW, I've never had to refer to the second rule;).


If it's the same site I'm thinking of, the answer was "7-10k unique views/month":D. You can do the math.

If I did that, I wouldn't get past the average first tier of 5 bucks USD!  And no, I have a personal philosophy of only buying something that is complete, not throwing money at promises.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;9051142. This is a good way to look at it. I've never participated in a KS, but if I do I'll make sure to keep this strategy in mind.

Shemek

I always ask myself "If nothing happened how much would the loss of money hurt?"  That's why I rarely pledge more than the minimum amount to get the PDFs.

Quote from: yosemitemike;905127My guess would be that they redirected an identical item that was already nearby.

Yeah, this. They put in a recall order for the other item and sent you a different one from a different, more local distribution center. Can easily put a rush order on that sort of thing, if there's one nearby.

And lots of people have literally local Amazon distro centers, at least in the USA. I know for sure there's one about 150 miles from me, and there's at least a small one handling PRIME NOW orders in town.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;9051141. I can attest to that as well. My copy of Bethorm ("will arrive in 2-4 business days") took fucking 2 weeks to get to me, due to dishonesty and incompetence on Amazon's part. BTW, for what it's worth, they have  some of the worst customer service reps I've ever encountered.

2. This is a good way to look at it. I've never participated in a KS, but if I do I'll make sure to keep this strategy in mind.

Shemek

Well, at least my package was late due to an extreme climatic phenomenon...:D

And it's not too late yet to lure you to the Dark Side of KS:)!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905128If I did that, I wouldn't get past the average first tier of 5 bucks USD!  And no, I have a personal philosophy of only buying something that is complete, not throwing money at promises.

You'd never send the Red Cross more than $5? Seriously?

I wouldn't want to waste more words if you confirm that this is really the case;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;905135I always ask myself "If nothing happened how much would the loss of money hurt?"  That's why I rarely pledge more than the minimum amount to get the PDFs.

I pledge for PDFs because the shipping tends to suck, and because I lack space. Then again, I've pledged for different projects at a higher level, too. So it all depends on a case-by-case basis.
People that make it all a matter of principle are actually muddying the waters, IMO.

Well, for all that I love to complain about things, and for all that I love poking at Anon (because he's posting on this forum), Most of my kickstarter backing turns out just fine.  I've backed over 250 projects, and of that number I think 10 of them won't ever deliver - and that includes ones I backed back in 2010 when no one knew what to look for as warning signs for kickstarters, Gareth Skarka's ongoing crash, and a couple of cases of people's lives just crashing.  (One due to chronic illness, another person (a really early comic book) whose life just nose-died).

On the other hand I've gotten some really neat stuff out of it - I'm still drooling over the huge number of minis I got from Zombicide: Black Plague, I've made my wife happier by getting her a few train-games (Rolling Freight, although late, was a great addition to our library), I helped make a classic Origami book get a second edition, Deadlands Noir was the start to my long string of getting great games from Pinnacle... really, there's a lot of great stuff I've gotten.  It's sometimes a bit late, but I've almost always gotten it.  I'll admit there's some stuff I got that I probably shouldn't have backed and supported in the excitement of the moment, but I'm working on slowing down from doing that - but on the other hand, I've bought stuff in the store that I've gotten home and realized was a poor buy too.

It's not for everyone, but I'm happy with my addiction, and I can stop at any time.  Honest.  Oooooh... look at that one...

Quote from: AsenRG;905179I pledge for PDFs because the shipping tends to suck, and because I lack space. Then again, I've pledged for different projects at a higher level, too. So it all depends on a case-by-case basis.
People that make it all a matter of principle are actually muddying the waters, IMO.

Depends on the principle.  My principle is "don't pledge money that I'm not willing to lose."  Of course, I've only backed 5 or 6 kickstarters anyway, mostly because I really don't want most of the stuff.  I pledged a bit to Girl Genius because I like it, I pledged to Gaxmoor and Hobby Shop Dungeon because I like Luke and Ernie and Ben, and I pledged to Kobolds Ate My Baby because I wanted the game.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;905240Depends on the principle.  My principle is "don't pledge money that I'm not willing to lose."  Of course, I've only backed 5 or 6 kickstarters anyway, mostly because I really don't want most of the stuff.  I pledged a bit to Girl Genius because I like it, I pledged to Gaxmoor and Hobby Shop Dungeon because I like Luke and Ernie and Ben, and I pledged to Kobolds Ate My Baby because I wanted the game.

I think you know what I mean by the "people that make it a matter of principle", Gronan, and your example doesn't really pertain to that:).

You'd almost think there was an element of sarcasm in that post.

Ah, people assuming that they will understand the tone of the intended post, or not make up their own tone.  So cute!

But frankly, it really has all been said, hasn't it?

Captain Whiny needs to buckle up, put both hands on the wheel, and make a product that people want to buy, instead of complaining as to why he can't do what he wants for the price he wants.

There's nothing left to add to this.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905428Ah, people assuming that they will understand the tone of the intended post, or not make up their own tone.  So cute!

But frankly, it really has all been said, hasn't it?

Captain Whiny needs to buckle up, put both hands on the wheel, and make a product that people want to buy, instead of complaining as to why he can't do what he wants for the price he wants.

There's nothing left to add to this.

well we could sit around and wine about random things till the thread gets closed :P
#its a joke

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;905425You'd almost think there was an element of sarcasm in that post.

Who would think of such an awful thing:)?

Quote from: kosmos1214;905442well we could sit around and wine about random things till the thread gets closed :P
#its a joke

Sitting around with a bottle of wine sounds like a lovely idea.  Grab some glasses while you're up.

Quote from: jcfiala;905855Sitting around with a bottle of wine sounds like a lovely idea.  Grab some glasses while you're up.

Ok cheep red or cheep white i just picked some up from my local aldi.

Quote from: Krimson;905017On a related note I saw an add for writing game articles. The fellow offered to pay 20 cents per 100 views of the article with $1 bonus per 1000 views. Now my first question would be how many views is this site getting, but of course my natural reaction would be, "My real job pays me $23 an hour. Why on Earth would I want to write RPG material for anyone but myself?"

Whether that's a good deal as an article-writer would depend on just how major the site is, not the writer, typically. I mean, in terms of articles I wrote in the past, that could have gotten me anything from $2 to $900, which is quite a range.

Back to the OP, I rarely see reason to invest $60 in an RPG book. Nowadays, with the exception of the core books of RPGs that are going to see A LOT of play with my group, I rarely buy physical RPG books anymore. The take place on a bookshelf and are unweildy to carry around. I prefer to buy PDFs in most cases to ready on my tablet and then print out the relevant parts for the game itself.

The main exception is D&D 5E - I spent about $120 on the three core books plus the quick start adventure/box (Lost Mine of Phandelver). But that's a game I can always find a good number of players for even in Israel with its tiny RPG community, AND it is my group's favourite ruelset. I can use the books for a decade of gaming, for the very least, to run and play a great number of sessions. A similar exception is Traveller, 2nd Edition, but again - a ruleset I know well, from a publisher I know well, and I know the rules well from the playtest I have participated in; and again, very well-known game with players to be found.

Regarding OSR games, my favourites are:

1) Stars Without Number. The main rule PDF is free and of very good production quality (B&W; some stock art).
2) ACKS. The core book PDF is $10, again very good production quality (B&W).
3) Swords and Wizardry. The core PDF is free (B&W).
4) White Star. PDF is $10, softcover is $20. Excellent game with very good production quality (B&W).

To get more than $10-$20 from me for a gaming product, you will have to work EXTREMELY HARD to provide me with value, and COMPETE with these favourites. Most indie games won't get my money at such sums, if at all.

Oh, and I don't need color art. I don't need too much B&W art, just a decent number of pieces which are thematically appropriate. I don't need hardcovers with gloss paper. Full-color books with "high production quality" are quite heavy for my tablet. I buy gaming products, not artbooks.

Quote from: golan2072;906777Oh, and I don't need color art. I don't need too much B&W art, just a decent number of pieces which are thematically appropriate. I don't need hardcovers with gloss paper. Full-color books with "high production quality" are quite heavy for my tablet. I buy gaming products, not artbooks.

I absolutely understand this view.  But you also have to realize that you are very clearly in the minority in the hobby, whether or not one would say that's a bad thing.  Fact is, people like flashy pretty books.  I think Dark Albion has immense value for its writing, but I'm also absolutely sure it wouldn't have been nearly the hit it turned out to be had it not been for the amazing production values the publisher put into it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;907980I absolutely understand this view.  But you also have to realize that you are very clearly in the minority in the hobby, whether or not one would say that's a bad thing.  Fact is, people like flashy pretty books.  I think Dark Albion has immense value for its writing, but I'm also absolutely sure it wouldn't have been nearly the hit it turned out to be had it not been for the amazing production values the publisher put into it.

I consider ACKS (I'll buy Dark Albion soon!) a good example of a product I buy - "high production quality" but B&W (other than the covers) on regular paper, saving quite a lot of money. The PDF costs $9.99.

I speak as somone who has published several short PDF products and who is working on a big PDF product - art is EXPENSIVE. Fill your book with full-color art, and it will be very costly, and unless you can sell it en-masse, you will have to charge a steep price. The alternative is to do crowdfunding so that you will have an art budget at hand before selling, but this also has its difficulties.

Quote from: golan2072;907988I consider ACKS (I'll buy Dark Albion soon!) a good example of a product I buy - "high production quality" but B&W (other than the covers) on regular paper, saving quite a lot of money. The PDF costs $9.99.

I speak as somone who has published several short PDF products and who is working on a big PDF product - art is EXPENSIVE. Fill your book with full-color art, and it will be very costly, and unless you can sell it en-masse, you will have to charge a steep price. The alternative is to do crowdfunding so that you will have an art budget at hand before selling, but this also has its difficulties.

All this is true, of course. Luckily you can still get away with black and white interior art in this hobby.  That's not really what usually defines whether or not a book is considered 'artistically impressive' (though being full-color more of than not tends to help with that impression).  More important is the quality and quantity of the interior art, and the layout.

Quote from: RPGPundit;907980I absolutely understand this view.  But you also have to realize that you are very clearly in the minority in the hobby, whether or not one would say that's a bad thing.  Fact is, people like flashy pretty books.  I think Dark Albion has immense value for its writing, but I'm also absolutely sure it wouldn't have been nearly the hit it turned out to be had it not been for the amazing production values the publisher put into it.

Unless Dark Albion allowed the buyer to open it up and flip through it to see all that costly glitzy art. Its not the factor people keep claiming it is. Interior art has never been the sale demand people keep claiming it is. Probably 75% or more of RPG purchases are either sight unseen or just the cover.

Quote from: Omega;908892Unless Dark Albion allowed the buyer to open it up and flip through it to see all that costly glitzy art. Its not the factor people keep claiming it is. Interior art has never been the sale demand people keep claiming it is. Probably 75% or more of RPG purchases are either sight unseen or just the cover.

Flashy covers aren't cheap...

Unless you have an in-house artist, like Paizo and Wayne Reynolds (which I don't know if he still is their personal artist, but he's done most of their art to date...)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;909232Flashy covers aren't cheap...

Covers period are not cheap. Even in board gaming one warning thats given is that a chunk of your expenses is going to go into the box. Namely the box art unless your game is art heavy in components. (or minis. Oh those damn minis)

But then theres minimalists like Werewolf, Vampire and even Traveller.

Art is almost a complete non factor for me in buying RPGs. I do not have a local game shop so I buy everything online. I don't get to see the pretty pictures until I have already bought the book.

To be honest I buy RPGs to play. Some of the full color, lots of art books get so hung up on being pretty that they lose readability and thus playability.

A good cover can catch my eye when browing online, but it needs clear graphic design. The classic Traveller look was brilliant. Minimalist and distinctive. You knew right away you were looking at a Traveller product. Of course if everyone started doing that it would no longer stand out.

Well, having an interesting cover is pretty essential. That's why we made TWO for Dark Albion.

...and now this poor doll is farting inside a thread on the S&W FB page (in a thread wherein 'the market' is responding fairly negatively to the newly proposed cover art for S&W Complete).
I mention that the consumers are where money comes from for those who sell a product and run Kickstarters and the whole of his reasoned response is to post a Simpsons Nelson 'ha ha' meme.

What a razor sharp mind.

Quote from: MachFront;910246...and now this poor doll is farting inside a thread on the S&W FB page (in a thread wherein 'the market' is responding fairly negatively to the newly proposed cover art for S&W Complete).
I mention that the consumers are where money comes from for those who sell a product and run Kickstarters and the whole of his reasoned response is to post a Simpsons Nelson 'ha ha' meme.

What a razor sharp mind.

I don't really understand this controversy from either side. Maybe I am just blind. But the old cover looks like an 80s RPG cover to me and the new one looks like something off a 90s Obituary cover or HP Lovecraft book. I can totally see how people might like one over the other but I am completely missing how this at all connects to the SJW thing.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;910257...but I am completely missing how this at all connects to the SJW thing.

Meh. The SJW was in another thread on Google+ who tried to stop folks from saying anything negative about the piece (the S&W art/design team is two ladies) because "patriarchy". That little stir was nothing at all, really.

Helton, in the FB thread, was simply being silly imaging somehow that money doesn't come from the consumers of a given product/kickstarter. I'll have to assume he thinks the money springs forth from some mystical otherwhen. It's no big deal either, I simply realized who he was a few moments later and recalled his 'article' and this thread.

No dog in this fight, but if I were to buy this book, I'd want the one with the Otus cover.  The updated one just doesn't look like anything to me.

Quote from: MachFront;910291Meh. The SJW was in another thread on Google+ who tried to stop folks from saying anything negative about the piece (the S&W art/design team is two ladies) because "patriarchy". That little stir was nothing at all, really.

Helton, in the FB thread, was simply being silly imaging somehow that money doesn't come from the consumers of a given product/kickstarter. I'll have to assume he thinks the money springs forth from some mystical otherwhen. It's no big deal either, I simply realized who he was a few moments later and recalled his 'article' and this thread.

I just don't get it. So it isn't even about the content of the image itself, it is about all the background stuff? Sometimes I feel like you have to wade through pages of google+ threads these days just to understand a given controversy. Personally I like the image (like I said, reminds me of an obituary cover or something Lovecraftian). I understand why some people like the old art and why it is a good fit for the material but I am not a huge fan of that style myself. Still I don't think is godawful or anything (and I like the colors). Treating liking an image or not liking it as an act of righteousness or evil makes zero sense. My feed these days is full of people who hate this movie or love that show and announce like they are taking a stand or just revealed their stance on Israel. I simply don't get it. If people don't like the cover I am interested to here why. If they do I am interested. But not if it is ultimately just because it is a political stand.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;910321I just don't get it. So it isn't even about the content of the image itself, it is about all the background stuff? Sometimes I feel like you have to wade through pages of google+ threads these days just to understand a given controversy. Personally I like the image (like I said, reminds me of an obituary cover or something Lovecraftian). I understand why some people like the old art and why it is a good fit for the material but I am not a huge fan of that style myself. Still I don't think is godawful or anything (and I like the colors). Treating liking an image or not liking it as an act of righteousness or evil makes zero sense. My feed these days is full of people who hate this movie or love that show and announce like they are taking a stand or just revealed their stance on Israel. I simply don't get it. If people don't like the cover I am interested to here why. If they do I am interested. But not if it is ultimately just because it is a political stand.

There were essentially two things going on at once that became oddly and unfortunately intertwined. Many folks were expressing a mixture of distaste and confusion over the new cover (most explaining why: it doesn't communicate the game, etc.).
Then folks (like Helton) coming in and conflating people disliking it with: disrespect due to patriarchal attitudes, or as pointless belly-aching, or not being as enlightened in some way...or...something.

Quote from: Gabriel2;910313No dog in this fight, but if I were to buy this book, I'd want the one with the Otus cover.  The updated one just doesn't look like anything to me.

I think the new cover would work well with something like Lamentations of the Flame Princess, myself.  But it's not what I look for in S&W.

Personally would GREATLY prefer if all PRGs were published as a 3.xed-style SRD as those are so much easier to search and navigate on a cell. Interior art is worse than useless for me. Did like the S&W and ACKS stuff that was distributed as an editable word processor document.

Quote from: jcfiala;910350I think the new cover would work well with something like Lamentations of the Flame Princess, myself.  But it's not what I look for in S&W.

I just picked up S&W recently so I might not be as keyed into the aesthetic. Personally I really like the atmosphere and mood of the new cover. It is definitely different from the previous cover, so I can see how folks might find it jarring. But I got to admit I like this one much better. Some of it might have to do with when I started gaming. I began playing in 86, and this looks like a lot of the art I was absorbing and finding inspiration from by the late 80s and early 90s. So that is possibly a factor for me. The stuff that emulates the real early TSR art, doesn't really hit me in the same way.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;910436The stuff that emulates the real early TSR art, doesn't really hit me in the same way.

Brendan Im shocked...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]271[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]273[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]272[/ATTACH]...shocked I tell you.

That Amazon pic is totally inappropriate.

Quote from: daniel_ream;910461That Amazon pic is totally inappropriate.

Inappropriate?

Quote from: daniel_ream;910461That Amazon pic is totally inappropriate.

I agree...that belt she's wearing would chafe!!

Lighten up, francis.

Quote from: Bren;910464Inappropriate?

She still has both breasts.

Quote from: daniel_ream;910485She still has both breasts.

You've never fired a bow, have you? :D

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;910436I just picked up S&W recently so I might not be as keyed into the aesthetic. Personally I really like the atmosphere and mood of the new cover. It is definitely different from the previous cover, so I can see how folks might find it jarring. But I got to admit I like this one much better. Some of it might have to do with when I started gaming. I began playing in 86, and this looks like a lot of the art I was absorbing and finding inspiration from by the late 80s and early 90s. So that is possibly a factor for me. The stuff that emulates the real early TSR art, doesn't really hit me in the same way.

That's interesting to me since I started gaming in fall of '86 myself (I was 12 at the time). I don't have nostalgia for pre-'86 art, but I actually prefer something like Otus or Willingham to, say, Elmore and Easley (sp?) or later though I dig those as well. I suppose if I have 'nostalgia' for any art from rpgs it would be the various bits from things like Palladium Fantasy and Dragon magazines of the mid to late 80s (I love Pillsbury's stuff and wish he did more).

Quote from: daniel_ream;910485She still has both breasts.

Ahhh...I totally missed what you were saying. And OUCH!


Kind of supports my view of the art though.

Quote from: MachFront;910504That's interesting to me since I started gaming in fall of '86 myself (I was 12 at the time). I don't have nostalgia for pre-'86 art, but I actually prefer something like Otus or Willingham to, say, Elmore and Easley (sp?) or later though I dig those as well. I suppose if I have 'nostalgia' for any art from rpgs it would be the various bits from things like Palladium Fantasy and Dragon magazines of the mid to late 80s (I love Pillsbury's stuff and wish he did more).

I am the inverse I think. I am fine with Otus and Willingham, but prefer the Elmore and Easley stuff (especially the stuff they were doing in the late 80s to the 90s).

Could someone link or post the new S&W cover for those of us who need a new Facebook group like they need an extra set of nipples?

Quote from: The Butcher;910558Could someone link or post the new S&W cover for those of us who need a new Facebook group like they need an extra set of nipples?

Here you go:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]275[/ATTACH]

You can see a bigger picture, along with the old cover, at Tenkar's Tavern here: http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2016/07/new-swords-wizardry-complete-cover.html (http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2016/07/new-swords-wizardry-complete-cover.html)

It's pretty, but it's also nonsensical.  So...  It's pretty nonsensical.

Joking aside, it doesn't say anything about what it's actually y'know, about.

Which to me, makes it less than useful in terms of whether or not I want to buy it.  It'll attract my eye, but other than that...

Quote from: Christopher Brady;910565Joking aside, it doesn't say anything about what it's actually y'know, about.

Which to me, makes it less than useful in terms of whether or not I want to buy it.  It'll attract my eye, but other than that...

From what I've seen, that's the major criticism. A lot of people have said that it's a fine piece of art and could work great as a cover for other things, but as an S&W cover it's lacking since it doesn't convey any sort of information about the game. I don't play S&W and don't have a dog in the discussion, but I tend to agree.

Incidentally, that's why my favorite cover is on Stars Without Number. I really, really hope Kevin Crawford keeps that as an option for the revised edition next year. That field of stars is gorgeous and prepares the reader for what's to come before the book is even opened.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;910257I don't really understand this controversy from either side. Maybe I am just blind. But the old cover looks like an 80s RPG cover to me and the new one looks like something off a 90s Obituary cover or HP Lovecraft book. I can totally see how people might like one over the other but I am completely missing how this at all connects to the SJW thing.

Check out this thread: https://plus.google.com/+StacyDellorfano/posts/UknsffTixsm

Quote from: Brand55;910561Here you go:

So 80s kid's cartoon art or a sophisticated picture that looks more suitable for the cover of At the Mountains of Madness than of Swords & Wizardry. Tough choice.

Sorry, but Erol Otis cover FTW. It is the cover art that makes me want to play a game and be one of those adventurers depicted or the GM of that monster.

The new cover just makes me want to send the artist back to Art School.....

OK, people who like the new cover, or at least get it...

What the heck is it an image of?

This is a serious question.  I cannot tell what I'm looking at.  It's just kind of some moths and something exploding out of something.  And I guess it's glowing or something?

I've looked at it a while and is it bones?  Is it a plant?  Is it a spirit?  I honestly don't know.

Quote from: Gabriel2;910587OK, people who like the new cover, or at least get it...

What the heck is it an image of?

This is a serious question.  I cannot tell what I'm looking at.  It's just kind of some moths and something exploding out of something.  And I guess it's glowing or something?

I've looked at it a while and is it bones?  Is it a plant?  Is it a spirit?  I honestly don't know.

I think that it is all of those things: some kind of mysterious nature spirit or god. It seems quite evocative to me (and breaks from the standard game design decision of putting a group of adventurers in an action scene on the cover, which is a cool risk, in my opinion).

That google discussion though... yikes be careful what you say in social media these days: people will take objections in ways that you couldn't possibly imagine. One guy apologized to, like, everyone in the whole world for a comment that was pretty mildly critical.

Quote from: Lynn;910572Check out this thread: https://plus.google.com/+StacyDellorfano/posts/UknsffTixsm

Caught that earlier today.

Quote from: Gabriel2;910587OK, people who like the new cover, or at least get it...

What the heck is it an image of?

This is a serious question.  I cannot tell what I'm looking at.  It's just kind of some moths and something exploding out of something.  And I guess it's glowing or something?

I've looked at it a while and is it bones?  Is it a plant?  Is it a spirit?  I honestly don't know.

It's a fairly abstract image, so it's meant to be whatever you make of it. To one person it might be an angry spirit or demonic tree, and I've seen one guy say there's some sort of horned skull. Think of it like a Rorschach test with some butterflies or moths fluttering around.

Quote from: Gabriel2;910587OK, people who like the new cover, or at least get it...

What the heck is it an image of?

This is a serious question.  I cannot tell what I'm looking at.  It's just kind of some moths and something exploding out of something.  And I guess it's glowing or something?

I've looked at it a while and is it bones?  Is it a plant?  Is it a spirit?  I honestly don't know.

I don't think images like this need to be anything specific. To me it is more capturing a mood and atmosphere and suggestive of a lot of different things (death, blood, life, etc). It looks like it could be anything from a spell being cast, to a god appearing, etc. Unless it is a monster in the game or something, I don't really expect it to be something where you need to know exactly what it represents. Whatever it is, it looks like it is dangerous and powerful. I like the contrast of blood red on black and white. The imagery works for me and makes me eager to play. Again it reminds me a bit of an old Obituary cover.

I like how it makes me think that the game is more than just another clone of early D&D (with elves, dwarves, Fighters, halflings and dungeon delving). The same sort of feeling that I get when I look at a book from Lamentations of the Flame Princess or Beyond the Wall.

I mean, Swords and Wizardry IS more than just nicely rewritten OD&D rules, right? I'd be disappointed otherwise.

Quote from: Necrozius;910593I mean, Swords and Wizardry IS more than just nicely rewritten OD&D rules, right? I'd be disappointed otherwise.

No it's not.  That's the strength of it.

Quote from: Necrozius;910593I like how it makes me think that the game is more than just another clone of early D&D (with elves, dwarves, Fighters, halflings and dungeon delving). The same sort of feeling that I get when I look at a book from Lamentations of the Flame Princess or Beyond the Wall.

I mean, Swords and Wizardry IS more than just nicely rewritten OD&D rules, right? I'd be disappointed otherwise.

Heh. I made the same point elsewhere.
Since the idea is to appeal to other segments of the hobby and ladies outside of the hobby, then they may get at least a slight sensation of bait and switch.

I've since shown the covers of all the S&W versions and editions and this new cover to a number (around about twenty or so) of ladies across all ages, etc. Most geeky in some way but none are gamers.
They universally disliked it. Most made fun of it. My 9-year-old, Talisman-and-Dragon-Age-and-Oblivion-loving daughter really turned her nose up at it. All of them preferred any and all of the older covers.
Anecdotal, I realize. But, at least in this small case, the cover didn't at all do the job they're imagining it will.

Quote from: Necrozius;910593I like how it makes me think that the game is more than just another clone of early D&D (with elves, dwarves, Fighters, halflings and dungeon delving). The same sort of feeling that I get when I look at a book from Lamentations of the Flame Princess or Beyond the Wall.

Both of those games have covers that express something about the game itself, including the presence of characters. I wonder what the goal was for this cover art? I honestly can't guess by looking at it. It would be interesting to hear an explanation.

Quote from: Lynn;910611I wonder what the goal was for this cover art? I honestly can't guess by looking at it. It would be interesting to hear an explanation.

As I mentioned, one of the ladies of the two-lady art/design team and Bill Webb himself mentioned....somewhere...sorry I can't recall. A thread on G+ or FB or in the comments section of a post about the cover at Tenkar's Tavern? I'm not sure.
Anyway. It boiled down to purposefully doing something different. One, to do something different simply for the sake of doing something different and two to appeal to more gamers usually not interested in OSR games and (closely related) three to appeal to ladies both in and out of the hobby in general.

Otus is one of my favorite artists, but I've never cared much for the S&W cover. A glowing cartoon with weird legs, and the rest is monochrome unexciting. But it's an adventuring party, facing something.

The new one's a better piece of art, but it's like a Celtic spirit of blood and fertility is arising from the exploded corpse of... based on the skull, maybe a cow? It would work for some games, or for a module trying to evoke some of those themes, but it seems to have nothing to do with S&W.

Swords & Wizardry: Blessed Be

Swords & Wizardry: Is "The Goddess" As Fat As You?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;910565It's pretty, but it's also nonsensical.  So...  It's pretty nonsensical.

Joking aside, it doesn't say anything about what it's actually y'know, about.

Which to me, makes it less than useful in terms of whether or not I want to buy it.  It'll attract my eye, but other than that...

Agreed. The original cover communicates the game better. The new cover makes me think some sort of supernatural horror game.

Quote from: MachFront;910613Anyway. It boiled down to purposefully doing something different. One, to do something different simply for the sake of doing something different and two to appeal to more gamers usually not interested in OSR games and (closely related) three to appeal to ladies both in and out of the hobby in general.

I thought I saw over on Tenkar's Tavern that they are targeting the "lapsed gamer", which I think is quite interesting.

From a marketing perspective (selling more units), "different" should translate to 'fresh' plus 'promotes interest in our target customers'. It certainly stirs the pot of controversy over cover choices - and that's something right there.

Quote from: Lynn;910673I thought I saw over on Tenkar's Tavern that they are targeting the "lapsed gamer", which I think is quite interesting.

From a marketing perspective (selling more units), "different" should translate to 'fresh' plus 'promotes interest in our target customers'. It certainly stirs the pot of controversy over cover choices - and that's something right there.

Not really. Tenkar's Swords and Wizardry: Light is the upcoming game targeting the lapsed gamer -- a 4 page, ultra light distillation of S&W. ;)

I still think that it can work. Most World of Darkness books have had abstract covers and they sold like hotcakes. Sure OSR games don't usually do this but hey it's good to go against the grain once in a while.

Quote from: Brand55;910561Here you go:

Thanks. Yeah, it's pretty, but nothing about it says D&D/S&W. I toolike the Otus cover best.

Yeah, I'm late, so what.

So the "old" cover is this:

Spoiler

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-m0pqlEbz6hA/V5dhSCusxYI/AAAAAAAAgLk/01wLne8KQ4ggnp_PZQ6kmMJOyEB7AVnbgCLcB/s1600/86546%2B%25281%2529.jpg)

The "new" cover is this (absolute shit btw, that's the cover of a Borgstrom game):

Spoiler

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KCB2OoU2u8g/V5dgsN3nTLI/AAAAAAAAgLg/ly3LYDoAa8wszxHicSqT7pO2Db0l7h26wCLcB/s1600/Screenshot%2B2016-07-26%2B09.07.42.png)

But what the hell ever happened to this:

Spoiler

(http://www.swordsandwizardry.com/sw/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/sw_small_cover_1.jpg)

or this:

Spoiler

(http://static1.paizo.com/image/product/catalog/PZOP/PZOPDFFGGSWRULESE_500.jpeg)

I like 1 and 4.

Dislike 1 and 2.

3 & 4 are gorgeous.

But guess thats why i'm a sexist.

I only like #4.  I don't like the art style in #1 and #3.  #2 looks like someone drank a bunch of ink and vomited on the paper.

Is number 2 a deer skull with a red plant inside of it?

Sorry. I'm too lazy right now to quote CRKruger's post properly.

"Whatever the hell happened to this?"

That's still the cover to S&W Core.

That last was the cover to Complete until the Otus cover. The art was accomplished enough, but....that print of S&W Complete (the first) is best forgotten if only because of Frog God's major misstep with regards to "professional" printing (worse than POD and messy glue and lopsided and warped covers both at once) and the connected and horrendous misfire that was the "limited edition" of that print, which had to be re-printed and still of lesser quality than POD. Guh.
To their credit, the prints of the Otus cover edition have been quite nice (by today's standards....never been an AD&D1E fan but, damn, it seems we never have and never will again have rpg books made of freakin' concrete like those were).

Am I a pariah? I love OD&D (but I'd rather S&W:WB than both OD&D and Delving Deeper), but I dislike the art of OD&D. I dig B/X and dig the art, though I discovered and 'grew up' (in the gaming sense) during the mid-80s  with Mentzer BECMI and the mid-to-late-80s "Dragon Magazine A&D"-era...if there's such a thing outside of my own mind...and though I loved Elmore and Easley during that time, I no longer get a charge out of their pieces as I once did. I still love Parkinson, though. I dislike the art of 3E and 4E D&D, but for some reason dig Wayne Reynold's art for Pathfinder.
I'm so confused. What am I supposed to like? Whose side am I supposed to be on (today)?
Sigh. Can't I go back and have everything illustrated by Darrell K. Sweet? Is that so wrong?!?

Quote from: MachFront;910772Am I a pariah? I love OD&D (but I'd rather S&W:WB than both OD&D and Delving Deeper), but I dislike the art of OD&D. I dig B/X and dig the art, though I discovered and 'grew up' (in the gaming sense) during the mid-80s  with Mentzer BECMI and the mid-to-late-80s "Dragon Magazine A&D"-era...if there's such a thing outside of my own mind...and though I loved Elmore and Easley during that time, I no longer get a charge out of their pieces as I once did. I still love Parkinson, though. I dislike the art of 3E and 4E D&D, but for some reason dig Wayne Reynold's art for Pathfinder.
I'm so confused. What am I supposed to like? Whose side am I supposed to be on (today)?
Sigh. Can't I go back and have everything illustrated by Darrell K. Sweet? Is that so wrong?!?

Nope.  Like what you like.

Quote from: CRKrueger;910733Yeah, I'm late, so what.

So the "old" cover is this:

Spoiler

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-m0pqlEbz6hA/V5dhSCusxYI/AAAAAAAAgLk/01wLne8KQ4ggnp_PZQ6kmMJOyEB7AVnbgCLcB/s1600/86546%2B%25281%2529.jpg)

The "new" cover is this (absolute shit btw, that's the cover of a Borgstrom game):

Spoiler

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KCB2OoU2u8g/V5dgsN3nTLI/AAAAAAAAgLg/ly3LYDoAa8wszxHicSqT7pO2Db0l7h26wCLcB/s1600/Screenshot%2B2016-07-26%2B09.07.42.png)

But what the hell ever happened to this:

Spoiler

(http://www.swordsandwizardry.com/sw/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/sw_small_cover_1.jpg)

or this:

Spoiler

(http://static1.paizo.com/image/product/catalog/PZOP/PZOPDFFGGSWRULESE_500.jpeg)

#1, #3, and #4 work as game covers and evoke some semblance of game play. #2, not so much, unless your definition of game play is a bad acid trip.

Quote from: Necrozius;910588That google discussion though... yikes be careful what you say in social media these days: people will take objections in ways that you couldn't possibly imagine. One guy apologized to, like, everyone in the whole world for a comment that was pretty mildly critical.

Assuming it's the response by Gabriel Carlson, I honestly thought he was being sarcastic up until about the halfway mark.

Quote from: jeff37923;910839#1, #3, and #4 work as game covers and evoke some semblance of game play. #2, not so much, unless your definition of game play is a bad acid trip.

My order of preference is #4, #3, and then #1. #2 not at all for the same reason you cite.

#2 is horrible; I look at it and honestly think "What the FUCK am I even looking at?"

As for the art in OD&D...

ME, in 1973:  "Why are you using this guy's art, it's horrible."
GARY GYGAX: "Because he works for $2 a picture."

Actual conversation.

I like #2, but it definitely looks like, Compost: the Beguiling. Not what I think of when I think of S&W OD&D style play. However, if it was on velvet with UV paints it would totally kick ass during hookah time.

Makes me think of a death metal cover with some hippie chick streaking by with a bubble wand, "Ooh, this needs butterflies!"

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;910848As for the art in OD&D...

ME, in 1973:  "Why are you using this guy's art, it's horrible."
GARY GYGAX: "Because he works for $2 a picture."

Actual conversation.

More proof that the conventional wisdom that something is worth what you paid for it is false.