Entitled Incompetent Game Designers Demand You Be Forced To Pay Them More Money

Brand55 · July 29, 2016, 09:26:02 PM

Quote from: Christopher Brady;910565Joking aside, it doesn't say anything about what it's actually y'know, about.

Which to me, makes it less than useful in terms of whether or not I want to buy it. It'll attract my eye, but other than that...

From what I've seen, that's the major criticism. A lot of people have said that it's a fine piece of art and could work great as a cover for other things, but as an S&W cover it's lacking since it doesn't convey any sort of information about the game. I don't play S&W and don't have a dog in the discussion, but I tend to agree.

Incidentally, that's why my favorite cover is on Stars Without Number. I really, really hope Kevin Crawford keeps that as an option for the revised edition next year. That field of stars is gorgeous and prepares the reader for what's to come before the book is even opened.

Lynn · July 29, 2016, 09:41:01 PM

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;910257I don't really understand this controversy from either side. Maybe I am just blind. But the old cover looks like an 80s RPG cover to me and the new one looks like something off a 90s Obituary cover or HP Lovecraft book. I can totally see how people might like one over the other but I am completely missing how this at all connects to the SJW thing.

Check out this thread: https://plus.google.com/+StacyDellorfano/posts/UknsffTixsm

Bren · July 29, 2016, 10:04:06 PM

Quote from: Brand55;910561Here you go:

So 80s kid's cartoon art or a sophisticated picture that looks more suitable for the cover of At the Mountains of Madness than of Swords & Wizardry. Tough choice.

jeff37923 · July 29, 2016, 11:02:50 PM

Sorry, but Erol Otis cover FTW. It is the cover art that makes me want to play a game and be one of those adventurers depicted or the GM of that monster.

The new cover just makes me want to send the artist back to Art School.....

Gabriel2 · July 29, 2016, 11:16:33 PM

OK, people who like the new cover, or at least get it...

What the heck is it an image of?

This is a serious question. I cannot tell what I'm looking at. It's just kind of some moths and something exploding out of something. And I guess it's glowing or something?

I've looked at it a while and is it bones? Is it a plant? Is it a spirit? I honestly don't know.

Necrozius · July 29, 2016, 11:20:08 PM

Quote from: Gabriel2;910587OK, people who like the new cover, or at least get it...

What the heck is it an image of?

This is a serious question. I cannot tell what I'm looking at. It's just kind of some moths and something exploding out of something. And I guess it's glowing or something?

I've looked at it a while and is it bones? Is it a plant? Is it a spirit? I honestly don't know.

I think that it is all of those things: some kind of mysterious nature spirit or god. It seems quite evocative to me (and breaks from the standard game design decision of putting a group of adventurers in an action scene on the cover, which is a cool risk, in my opinion).

That google discussion though... yikes be careful what you say in social media these days: people will take objections in ways that you couldn't possibly imagine. One guy apologized to, like, everyone in the whole world for a comment that was pretty mildly critical.

Bedrockbrendan · July 29, 2016, 11:21:18 PM

Quote from: Lynn;910572Check out this thread: https://plus.google.com/+StacyDellorfano/posts/UknsffTixsm

Caught that earlier today.

Brand55 · July 29, 2016, 11:25:01 PM

Quote from: Gabriel2;910587OK, people who like the new cover, or at least get it...

What the heck is it an image of?

This is a serious question. I cannot tell what I'm looking at. It's just kind of some moths and something exploding out of something. And I guess it's glowing or something?

I've looked at it a while and is it bones? Is it a plant? Is it a spirit? I honestly don't know.

It's a fairly abstract image, so it's meant to be whatever you make of it. To one person it might be an angry spirit or demonic tree, and I've seen one guy say there's some sort of horned skull. Think of it like a Rorschach test with some butterflies or moths fluttering around.

Bedrockbrendan · July 29, 2016, 11:25:53 PM

Quote from: Gabriel2;910587OK, people who like the new cover, or at least get it...

What the heck is it an image of?

This is a serious question. I cannot tell what I'm looking at. It's just kind of some moths and something exploding out of something. And I guess it's glowing or something?

I've looked at it a while and is it bones? Is it a plant? Is it a spirit? I honestly don't know.

I don't think images like this need to be anything specific. To me it is more capturing a mood and atmosphere and suggestive of a lot of different things (death, blood, life, etc). It looks like it could be anything from a spell being cast, to a god appearing, etc. Unless it is a monster in the game or something, I don't really expect it to be something where you need to know exactly what it represents. Whatever it is, it looks like it is dangerous and powerful. I like the contrast of blood red on black and white. The imagery works for me and makes me eager to play. Again it reminds me a bit of an old Obituary cover.

Necrozius · July 29, 2016, 11:29:04 PM

I like how it makes me think that the game is more than just another clone of early D&D (with elves, dwarves, Fighters, halflings and dungeon delving). The same sort of feeling that I get when I look at a book from Lamentations of the Flame Princess or Beyond the Wall.

I mean, Swords and Wizardry IS more than just nicely rewritten OD&D rules, right? I'd be disappointed otherwise.

Christopher Brady · July 30, 2016, 12:10:00 AM

Quote from: Necrozius;910593I mean, Swords and Wizardry IS more than just nicely rewritten OD&D rules, right? I'd be disappointed otherwise.

No it's not. That's the strength of it.

MachFront · July 30, 2016, 12:13:58 AM

Quote from: Necrozius;910593I like how it makes me think that the game is more than just another clone of early D&D (with elves, dwarves, Fighters, halflings and dungeon delving). The same sort of feeling that I get when I look at a book from Lamentations of the Flame Princess or Beyond the Wall.

I mean, Swords and Wizardry IS more than just nicely rewritten OD&D rules, right? I'd be disappointed otherwise.

Heh. I made the same point elsewhere.
Since the idea is to appeal to other segments of the hobby and ladies outside of the hobby, then they may get at least a slight sensation of bait and switch.

I've since shown the covers of all the S&W versions and editions and this new cover to a number (around about twenty or so) of ladies across all ages, etc. Most geeky in some way but none are gamers.
They universally disliked it. Most made fun of it. My 9-year-old, Talisman-and-Dragon-Age-and-Oblivion-loving daughter really turned her nose up at it. All of them preferred any and all of the older covers.
Anecdotal, I realize. But, at least in this small case, the cover didn't at all do the job they're imagining it will.

Lynn · July 30, 2016, 01:39:15 AM

Quote from: Necrozius;910593I like how it makes me think that the game is more than just another clone of early D&D (with elves, dwarves, Fighters, halflings and dungeon delving). The same sort of feeling that I get when I look at a book from Lamentations of the Flame Princess or Beyond the Wall.

Both of those games have covers that express something about the game itself, including the presence of characters. I wonder what the goal was for this cover art? I honestly can't guess by looking at it. It would be interesting to hear an explanation.

MachFront · July 30, 2016, 02:00:36 AM

Quote from: Lynn;910611I wonder what the goal was for this cover art? I honestly can't guess by looking at it. It would be interesting to hear an explanation.

As I mentioned, one of the ladies of the two-lady art/design team and Bill Webb himself mentioned....somewhere...sorry I can't recall. A thread on G+ or FB or in the comments section of a post about the cover at Tenkar's Tavern? I'm not sure.
Anyway. It boiled down to purposefully doing something different. One, to do something different simply for the sake of doing something different and two to appeal to more gamers usually not interested in OSR games and (closely related) three to appeal to ladies both in and out of the hobby in general.

Pat · July 30, 2016, 02:05:16 AM

Otus is one of my favorite artists, but I've never cared much for the S&W cover. A glowing cartoon with weird legs, and the rest is monochrome unexciting. But it's an adventuring party, facing something.

The new one's a better piece of art, but it's like a Celtic spirit of blood and fertility is arising from the exploded corpse of... based on the skull, maybe a cow? It would work for some games, or for a module trying to evoke some of those themes, but it seems to have nothing to do with S&W.