Quote from: Crüesader;902701I'm convinced they took the money and ran.

Probably not.  THey've probably been working their asses off and are realizing how over-their-heads they are.

Quote from: daniel_ream;902562In the real world, if you contract to provide a service or good by a certain date and you don't, you can and will get sued for breach of contract.  Some contracts include hefty penalties for missing delivery dates.

I know that Kickstarter doesn't explicitly contain clauses like this, but it's really not unreasonable for people to expect a delivery date promise to be honoured.  "Everyone else misses their ship dates by a mile" isn't much of a defense.

Exactly.

Quote from: AsenRG;902530In my experience, unless you count delays, those are the extreme minority.

Delays count.  If you cannot deliver a product on time, why should I trust anything else0 you say?  (General you, not AsenRG specific you.)

Quote from: Jetstream;902677See, thing is, you're not "contracting" via Kickstarter. Kickstarter is, for all intents and purposes, a venture capital site. You are investing when you contribute to a Kickstarter. It's just that instead of stock or dividends, you're getting stuff.

And sometimes ventures fall through. People can still get sued for that, but as I understand it you generally have to prove misconduct. Investment is a risk, you don't always get what you want from it.

That's just it, it doesn't say you are investing.  Also, Investors actually have a say in what the end product looks like.

Quote from: Jetstream;902677See, thing is, you're not "contracting" via Kickstarter. Kickstarter is, for all intents and purposes, a venture capital site. You are investing when you contribute to a Kickstarter. It's just that instead of stock or dividends, you're getting stuff.

And sometimes ventures fall through. People can still get sued for that, but as I understand it you generally have to prove misconduct. Investment is a risk, you don't always get what you want from it.

Dude, this investing shit really needs to stop right now ! Do you know that you can buy stuff that is not currently existing, like a house which only exists in the architect's mind ? And investing means that you get some sort of ownership on the brand, product or whatever that will result of this investment, which is not the case in the standard KS !

Quote from: yabaziou;902727Dude, this investing shit really needs to stop right now ! Do you know that you can buy stuff that is not currently existing, like a house which only exists in the architect's mind ? And investing means that you get some sort of ownership on the brand, product or whatever that will result of this investment, which is not the case in the standard KS !

Thing is, Jetstream and most other posters, on this thread don't understand that, in fact, most people who crowdfund don't.  Kickstarter, Indie-Go-Go and all them other sites are actually nothing more than a pre-ordering system, you put money down on a promise and when if gets fully funded you hope to the Flying Spaghetti Monster that they deliver.

Now, the big problem?  Most people rarely put down anything worth worrying about so if it does get delayed, or worst case scenario, cancelled, most of them will be angry, but will often write it off as a 'chance' they took.

It also doesn't help that most who go to a crowdfunding site to fund their little project have little to no business acumen and will pile on goodie after goodie, not realizing just how much of an overhead they're creating for themselves as they suddenly have to fulfill all these orders that their original estimate doesn't cover.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;902723Delays count.  If you cannot deliver a product on time, why should I trust anything else0 you say?

Sure delay counts. But late delivery is a lot better than no delivery.

Even real, live, professional retailers, wholesalers, and manufacturers end up with delayed delivery - products on back-order, shortages, factory closures, recalls, shipping errors, and lossage may cause your product not to be in your hands on time. Unless the product is right there, sitting on a shelf you are taking a risk when you pay money for the product "on order." The risk is less with established providers. Unsurprisingly, the risk is higher when you deal with amateurs. But if a brick and mortar store takes your money and your order and then goes bankrupt you aren't likely to ever see your product, on time or otherwise, and you will be lucky to get pennies on the dollar pay back for your order.

QuoteAlso, Investors actually have a say in what the end product looks like.

They may. They may not. Depends on the terms of the investment. And I've participated in a kickstarter where I was given a say in what the end product looked like. But neither point has anything at all to do with kickstarters not being investments.

Quote from: Bren;903452Sure delay counts. But late delivery is a lot better than no delivery.

Even real, live, professional retailers, wholesalers, and manufacturers end up with delayed delivery - products on back-order, shortages, factory closures, recalls, shipping errors, and lossage may cause your product not to be in your hands on time. Unless the product is right there, sitting on a shelf you are taking a risk when you pay money for the product "on order." The risk is less with established providers. Unsurprisingly, the risk is higher when you deal with amateurs. But if a brick and mortar store takes your money and your order and then goes bankrupt you aren't likely to ever see your product, on time or otherwise, and you will be lucky to get pennies on the dollar pay back for your order.

This is a strawman and you know it.  It's very rare for a product to be consistently late at delivery, simply because legal fees and contract fees are expensive.

Quote from: Bren;903452They may. They may not. Depends on the terms of the investment. And I've participated in a kickstarter where I was given a say in what the end product looked like. But neither point has anything at all to do with kickstarters not being investments.

You're right.  Because Kickstarters are NOT an investment.  They have said so, themselves.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;903460This is a strawman and you know it. It's very rare for a product to be consistently late at delivery, simply because legal fees and contract fees are expensive.

I don't think you understood what I said. Comparing the purchase of a product not currently on a store's shelf and a kickstarter is not a strawman. Nor is it at all rare for a back ordered or out of stock product to have a sometimes lengthy delay before arrival. Either you misunderstood what I said or you are extremely young, sheltered, or naive. And the notion that a consumer is going to sue the corner store for legal and contract fees over a $50 consumer purchase that is still on back order is either a complete misunderstanding of ordinary retail and wholesale transactions or utter cluelessness about the ordinary purchase process of goods not currently sitting on a shelf.  

QuoteYou're right.  Because Kickstarters are NOT an investment.  They have said so, themselves.

Also water in the general temperature range of 0 to 100 degrees C is wet, dog bites man is not newsworthy, and the midnight buffet starts at 12:00AM. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Bren;903462And the notion that a consumer is going to sue the corner store for legal and contract fees over a $50 consumer purchase that is still on back order is either a complete misunderstanding of ordinary retail and wholesale transactions or utter cluelessness about the ordinary purchase process of goods not currently sitting on a shelf.  

Usually the consumer doesn't pay until the product actually arrives, though. Sure if I ordered £60 of stuff from my FLGS and they didn't deliver or refund, eventually I would sue them in small claims court.

Quote from: S'mon;903505Usually the consumer doesn't pay until the product actually arrives, though. Sure if I ordered £60 of stuff from my FLGS and they didn't deliver or refund, eventually I would sue them in small claims court.

Would you, if the store was a thousand miles away, and you didn't hear, until months after the fact, that they closed up shop and vanished?

That's probably closest to what happens when a Kickstarter fails. First, excuses, then more excuses. Then longer and longer delays between excuses, until finally it's been months and months and nobody's heard anything.

Reading between the lines of the original post it seems that what he's really complaining about isn't people buying overpriced shit so much as being angry that he has competitors undercutting him with their "underpriced" products. The simple fact is that retail (and distributors) take a big cut out of the final price just to keep the lights on never mind their own profits so people who sell their shit online can either make a lot more money per book or undercut the people who are distributing their shit.

For example on Fred Hick's blog he, like SineNomine in this thread, gives a breakdown of where the money goes. He makes so little money off of his books being sent to distribution that they're basically serving as advertising for his online sales more than anything. If he had to rely on brick and motor retail sales then Evil Hat would never have gotten off the ground the profits per book are so miniscule.

So if you're doing things the old fashioned way and selling your stuff through distribution you have to either:
-Cut production costs to the bone and stop all the glossy color shit.
-Put yourself in a position in which one bomb can wipe out your company.
-Charge a lot of money and get undercut by people who've cut out the retail middle man.
-Be so big that you get economies of scale on printing.
-Give up on distribution as a real source of money and compete with a thousand and one guys selling POD books for beer money online.

Doesn't really seem workable, hence the frustration in the linked post. Still remarkably stupid to rage against your business model becoming obsolete by telling your customers to give you more money for doing the same shit that other people will do for less.

Overall think that the way that the market is changing is a good thing. The RPG market is small enough that it really can't support many publishers large enough to have a stable of freelancers who produce shiny glossy shit but it is large enough to support a vast army of people producing stuff with low production costs, B&W art and no middlemen from companies that are mostly one man bands or hobbies done by people with day jobs. I get a whole lot more interesting shit with the second option and it's cheaper too.

Really wish more companies would look into cheaper options. The real way to make money with RPGs is to sell stuff to players since there are a lot more players than GMs but if the first thing a player needs to buy is a big expansive pretty 600-page book then they'll never get started and only the GM will ever buy your book. Give players a the option of a bare bones no art book that just tells them stuff they need to know excerpted out of the core book, or better yet an SRD. An SRD is vastly more valuable than even a PDF to me, so much easier to navigate and no art getting in the way when I'm trying to look stuff up.

Quote from: S'mon;903505Usually the consumer doesn't pay until the product actually arrives, though. Sure if I ordered £60 of stuff from my FLGS and they didn't deliver or refund, eventually I would sue them in small claims court.

If you think that would be worth your while for such a small amount, I would assume you've either never been to small claims court or have nothing better to do with your day than sit around waiting for your case to come up on the docket and hoping there's a way to actually collect even if you win a judgment.

Quote from: Daztur;903513Overall think that the way that the market is changing is a good thing. The RPG market is small enough that it really can't support many publishers large enough to have a stable of freelancers who produce shiny glossy shit but it is large enough to support a vast army of people producing stuff with low production costs, B&W art and no middlemen from companies that are mostly one man bands or hobbies done by people with day jobs. I get a whole lot more interesting shit with the second option and it's cheaper too.

I agree as well that the ongoing changes are a good thing. In the 70s there were only a few ways of distributing your work. With huge gulfs between the choices. Now we have dozens of methods for distributing a creative work and get paid. The old methods still work for some as we still have bookstores and games store stocking RPG products and ordering them from distributors. People People who hand sell zines and products at conventions, etc, etc. But alongside that we have the new paths of Print on Demand, PDF stores, personal web stores, etc.

Quote from: Pat;903507Would you, if the store was a thousand miles away, and you didn't hear, until months after the fact, that they closed up shop and vanished?

You do know what FLGS means, right?

No, I probably would not bother suing an online retailer.

Quote from: Matt;903528If you think that would be worth your while for such a small amount, I would assume you've either never been to small claims court or have nothing better to do with your day than sit around waiting for your case to come up on the docket and hoping there's a way to actually collect even if you win a judgment.

I have been both a litigant (settled) and a defendant (lost), actually. I'd do it for honour, which is the reason I fought the losing case to judgment.

Quote from: S'mon;903505Usually the consumer doesn't pay until the product actually arrives, though. Sure if I ordered £60 of stuff from my FLGS and they didn't deliver or refund, eventually I would sue them in small claims court.

Ordering online (probably the closest example to a kickstarter) you often do pay before the product arrives. Sometimes you don't find out until after you've paid that the product is currently out of stock and on back order. Even if you go through a brick and mortar retailer, they sometimes want money up front before ordering certain items. Undoubtedly they will refund your money if the item fails to come in after some length of time...always assuming that store is still in business.

As an example, when we lived in the UK my wife bought a nice set of dishes from a major UK retailer. The dishes she ordered were not available in the local store, so she ordered from the retailer online. We were charged for the dishes. However, the dishes were back ordered or out of stock for months. When they finally arrived they were (a) broken and (b) not all there. Resolving that mess took at least another month, many phone calls and trips to the local store, and two more shipments before all the order arrived intact. This was resolved shortly before we moved. Which is fortunate, as suing them from 3600 miles across an ocean would be just a bit inconvenient.