Quote from: trechriron;897260I'm simply responding to some comments about him being an "asshat", etc. Sure, many here feel he's off-base on this opinion, but he's a thoughtful writer, and passionate. Just putting it out there that I believe he's a good guy with some misplaced ideas on how (this) industry works. I imagine if he was willing and would engage this forum in debate, he would be put off with the name-calling but would be open to thoughtful counter-points.

Just to note, I didn't call him that, or any name. If I have to read this in every group and forum, I might.

Otherwise I would have much to say other than, "charge more, see how that works out for you" or "you can hire a professional to do a price point calculation for about $600", because that is about what I would charge.

I do agree with your rant tho', it's about the same story in writer's forums: "the readers suck!" Uh, no, it's probably not them sucking, it's what you wrote.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;896952Some of them even want you to pay them before they've written anything.

A painful lesson. But once learned, never forgotten.

Quote from: Brand55;897263You should have been in touch with NASA long ago.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/need-some-time-off-your-feet-nasa-paying-volunteers-18k-to-lie-in-bed-for-70-days/

Mother of God.

That sounds horrible.

I think there is a significant part of the RPG fanbase that has a difficult time accepting that the quality they want in their RPG books requires a certain cost. And that's true whether it's a $60 full-color hardcover or a $20 black-and-white softback, although in either case it seems to come primarily from people who feel like they're owed full-color hardcovers with luscious illustrations at prices that can't possibly pay for those things.

(These discussions also tend to prompt people to say, "I'd be buying a lot more RPG books if they were $20 black-and-white softcovers!" But the truth is a lot of those books are published each year. And -- spoilers! -- they don't sell as well as the $60 full-color deals.)

I'll also note that the post isn't calling for "price controls" (contrary to Pundie's initial post here). It's trying to make readers understand why their full-color hardcovers cost $60 and asking them to pay for the quality that they want.

His basic point is pretty much unassailable: That's what things cost, folks. Claiming that he's "entitled" for making factual statements just makes you look like a dumbass. (It particularly makes you look like a dumbass when you're the author of a full-color rulebook selling for nearly $60. Yeah, Pundie, I'm looking at you.)

It's also true that his article isn't very well written. (The biggest thing that jumps out at me is that he takes Pramas' comment about a $25,000 cost for a print run without any reference to the number of copies in that print run and tries to draw the conclusion that Pramas must be finding the money for art, writing, editing, etc. somewhere other than selling the books. The reality is almost certainly that the base KS goal is paying for a print run much larger than the KS and that the "rest of the money" is coming from selling those books through traditional retail channels.)

The ironic thing here is this thread filled with people who claim that a guy saying "this is what books cost when you pay for art and writing and printing" is entitled (despite the fact that his job isn't doing any of those things) when the only people showing entitlement are in fact the whiny posters demanding that people create material for them without being paid a living wage to do it. Nothing guarantees that a game designer or anybody else should be able to succeed at their chosen career, but that doesn't entitle your whiny demands that they service your needs on the cheap.

My impression was not that people think they are entitled to generally get games for a low price. This is a strawman of the seller side I think.

The points made by the customers as I recognize it are:
> If I am to pay for a game it must contain a value for me, that makes me think it is worth its price.
> This can be limited for many by the total amount free for leisure items.  
> Some of of the customers say also: and this value is not primarily in a nice packaging.

Quote from: trechriron;897260These days, that shit doesn't fly anymore. Everyone can see the used-car salesman coming a mile away. We know all the bullshit lines and the charlatans and showman have an increasingly harder time pulling the wool over our eyes.

Wish I could agree with you, but nope.  Heck, anyone who's seen a political headline (and not just in America) in the last six months knows otherwise: right now, a plurality of the voters in the Republican Party thinks that Donald Trump is fit to be the President of the United States.  'Nuff said.

Quote from: Ravenswing;897309Wish I could agree with you, but nope.  Heck, anyone who's seen a political headline (and not just in America) in the last six months knows otherwise: right now, a plurality of the voters in the Republican Party thinks that Donald Trump is fit to be the President of the United States.  'Nuff said.

Which proves the original claim.

They probably not know what he is up to, but they recognize the old cheaters in the political estabilshment and learn to avoid them.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;897301(These discussions also tend to prompt people to say, "I'd be buying a lot more RPG books if they were $20 black-and-white softcovers!" But the truth is a lot of those books are published each year. And -- spoilers! -- they don't sell as well as the $60 full-color deals.)

Except that isn't a fair comparison at all. It's not as if there's a cheaper version of the D&D Player's Guide available so we can compare its sales numbers to the hardcover, full-color version. So the only comparisons you get are sales numbers between the shiny products from the biggest companies and the cheaper stuff from independent producers.

A more fair, yet still far from perfect, comparison could be made between POD sales of different books on sites like DTRPG or RPGNow that offer both cheap B&W softcover versions alongside premium hardcover editions. I haven't seen any such sales data, though, and even then it would be somewhat skewed since such sites would be almost entirely frequented by the most hardcore fans, the ones most likely to pony up for nicer books.

At the end of the day, though, this is a hobby and plenty of people will still happily shell out the cash for extra features like better art and a hardcover when it comes to their gaming books.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;897301The ironic thing here is this thread filled with people who claim that a guy saying "this is what books cost when you pay for art and writing and printing" is entitled (despite the fact that his job isn't doing any of those things) when the only people showing entitlement are in fact the whiny posters demanding that people create material for them without being paid a living wage to do it. Nothing guarantees that a game designer or anybody else should be able to succeed at their chosen career, but that doesn't entitle your whiny demands that they service your needs on the cheap.

Emphasis mine. No one is calling him entitled for pointing out the costs of producing books. We're calling him entitled for demanding that people be able to make a living no matter what they do. That flies in the face of what you just said, so I'm not sure why you're taking his side on this.

Also, I haven't seen any "whiny" demands from anyone here that we get everything cheaply. I've got thousands of dollars sunk into the gaming books on my shelf, and I'd bet I don't even have nearly the biggest collection of anyone here. But I can easily see both sides as I've got $60 FFG books resting next to an entire Basic Fantasy RPG collection that cost me about $20 because those guys are awesome. There are plenty of gamers out there who can't afford the cost of the top-end gaming books these days, so it's a pretty good thing that not every game has gone to hardcover and full-color art.

Quote from: Maarzan;897312Which proves the original claim.

They probably not know what he is up to, but they recognize the old cheaters in the political estabilshment and learn to avoid them.

Go Go Go Team Chaos!  Trump AND Bernie! Creative destruction in real time.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;897301the only people showing entitlement are in fact the whiny posters demanding that people create material for them without being paid a living wage to do it.

I didn't see any demands in the thread, just people saying he's not entitled to be paid any particular amount. In particular that he's not entitled to be paid a living wage for his 'dream job'. I find it pretty weird how people expect they can just decide to be RPG designers and have people give them enough money to live on, as opposed to doing it as a hobby supplementing their real job. Even the top WoTC people earn incredibly low wages at their 'dream job'. For 99% of people you need a living-wage job first, do the fun thing in your spare time. There's the idea that this is a terrible and unjust state of affairs. I'm not seeing it. If it's unfair, well nearly everyone on the planet is in the same boat.

Quote from: S'mon;897323I didn't see any demands in the thread, just people saying he's not entitled to be paid any particular amount. In particular that he's not entitled to be paid a living wage for his 'dream job'. I find it pretty weird how people expect they can just decide to be RPG designers and have people give them enough money to live on, as opposed to doing it as a hobby supplementing their real job. Even the top WoTC people earn incredibly low wages at their 'dream job'. For 99% of people you need a living-wage job first, do the fun thing in your spare time. There's the idea that this is a terrible and unjust state of affairs. I'm not seeing it. If it's unfair, well nearly everyone on the planet is in the same boat.

A quick drive around the shanty towns of Manila or any non-affluent country (or even parts of the USA/EU) would very quickly clear up that notion for them.

Quote from: Ravenswing;897309Wish I could agree with you, but nope.  Heck, anyone who's seen a political headline (and not just in America) in the last six months knows otherwise: right now, a plurality of the voters in the Republican Party thinks that Donald Trump is fit to be the President of the United States.  'Nuff said.

That's still not that much. I mean yes, it's a lot of people in raw numbers, but I don't believe it reflects the country.
26% of Americans identify as Republicans. Judging from the turn-out of previous elections, about 15 to 30% of each state's population actually bothers to come out and vote during the primary (this rises to a little more than half during the general), so far less than that 26% has likely turned out so far. Then you have to keep in mind that many of that diminished percentage voted for other Republican candidates.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;897301I'll also note that the post isn't calling for "price controls" (contrary to Pundie's initial post here). It's trying to make readers understand why their full-color hardcovers cost $60 and asking them to pay for the quality that they want.

His basic point is pretty much unassailable: That's what things cost, folks. Claiming that he's "entitled" for making factual statements just makes you look like a dumbass. (It particularly makes you look like a dumbass when you're the author of a full-color rulebook selling for nearly $60. Yeah, Pundie, I'm looking at you.)

The comments Pundit made do fit the article.  The author said people deserve to be paid a living wage, basically no matter what job they do. That is "price controls". (and entitlement)  

He also said he deserves to be paid for "living the dream".  that is "entitled".

What he deserves, is to make money for his products if customers value his products more than his cost of making them. Whether that will equal a "living wage" or not will depend on how good he is at working with the formula I just spelled out. The same goes for anyone selling products or labor.

QuotePeople deserve to be paid a living wage, whether they are flipping burgers, waiting tables or living out their dreams by writing tabletop games. People doing their "dream job" is often used to devalue the work, and it is work, that they do for games. People should be paid fairly and given adequate compensation for their time, effort and work. Just because someone is "living the dream," it doesn't mean that their work has less value. This is something that we need to remember.

Quote from: Nexus;897145That is a drawback to Reputation/voting systems on forums. It cuts down +1 style posting but it can reduce discussion.

The best setup I've seen is one that only allows for upvoting. I feel like posting something like "I agree!" "Me too", etc is superfluous. Sometimes a +1 is just a way of saying those things without cluttering the discussion.

Chris is missing the important distinction between being a professional author and a game designer. A game designer is one corner of being a professional author (or anything else); it's something you do as part of a bigger spectrum, unless you work for WotC, FFE, GW or maybe one other publisher....and even then you most likely are still working other jobs, doing a range of freelance work....and if you're smart, you are aiming for "professional author" which means you should have lots of other work in the pipes, and gaming jobs are just a small percentage of jobs you pick more for love of the hobby than the low wage options.

Of course, the reality is that most professional authors like making good money, so they stick to more lucrative markets outside of gaming...and most game writers are terrible authors outside of designing games. At that point, it's better to find a decent job and turn game design into that nighttime hobby you do on the side that is also cool because it makes a little extra cash for you.

Chris is an odd duck, though. His articles at Enworld suggest to me that he has that weird sort of entitled millennial investment in the hobby.