This is not a problem of the gaming culture or the gaming industry. It is a problem of the economy. Simply put, there are jobs that are vital and necessary to the health of society that the free market does not value sufficiently to provide those who perform them with a suitable living; the arts are no less vital, but they are especially hard hit by this economic truth.

We're not going to get anywhere with this problem by trying to "fix" the gaming industry. If we're going to solve this problem, we're going to have to change the nature of the economy.

Quote from: daniel_ream;897215I get the impression that too many game designers think of the RPG business of the 80's as the default baseline, rather than the overinflated bubble that it actually was.  Where we're at now - a cottage industry with one or two corporate players large enough to afford full-time staff - is probably the sustainable state.

Until the game changes. For instance, Wolflair and Smiteworks (Hero Lab/Realm Works and Fantasy Grounds respectively) don't produce any of their own material... sort of. But they are gaming companies nonetheless. Both are small but successful and good at what they do. As technology improves I suspect Virtual Tabletops will as well. Should the technology get to the point where the learning curve makes them appealing to casual users then you might see a change in the market as games move to a digital format. Heck, I expect some interesting times when Fantasy Grounds moves to Unity and can be run on any platform.

An RPer I know in Second Life and I were talking about even making apps like the old Fighting Fantasy books or even the older Choose Your Own Adventure books. It's easy enough to hide game mechanics for the casual player, so that they can spend less time worrying about numbers and more time just enjoying the story. I guess this wouldn't be too dissimilar to Visual Novels with multiple storylines though it would be neat to have something like that where you could have a persistent character that can go from story to story and even play collaboratively with others online.

Certainly there are those who will swear up and down their loyalty to print books. I still prefer my game books that way, but just because I'm a middle aged guy with set preferences doesn't mean that the market will stay that way. Grognards aren't going to live forever and barring some global disaster that kills our technology, games are going to continue to evolve and change.

Quote from: Krimson;897219Until the game changes. For instance, Wolflair and Smiteworks (Hero Lab/Realm Works and Fantasy Grounds respectively) don't produce any of their own material... sort of. But they are gaming companies nonetheless. Both are small but successful and good at what they do. As technology improves I suspect Virtual Tabletops will as well. Should the technology get to the point where the learning curve makes them appealing to casual users then you might see a change in the market as games move to a digital format. Heck, I expect some interesting times when Fantasy Grounds moves to Unity and can be run on any platform.

They sell their services and products to the RPG playing target customer but they are not game publishing companies themselves. The business model is quite different. The resources they have are quite different (meaning also, they can utilize their resources in ways that game publishing companies cannot).

Who the fuck cares.

Quote from: Orphan81;897144Last I checked the comments, I found it saddening no one seems to be referencing or even replying to Kevin Crawford's post... But then, he basically just BTFO them all, so of course they have to ignore it completely.

They are, it's just that most people agree with him.

I am among those who tried to complete the column, but couldn't because the finger wagging got a bit too much for me. If someone wants an outlet for their indignation about the RPG buying public, by all means, read that column. If you want to learn a model that can be used to attempt to make a living off making and publishing RPGs listen to the guys like Crawford and Raggi when they open up about their experiences.

Quote from: 5 Stone Games;897214Its been hard for the RPG hobby to adapt to a near post scarcity environment. Ignoring piracy for a second , I could very easily give nearly everyone on planet Earth an copy of any number of free and legal RPG's many of them high quality for not a lot more effort than  saying "Tea Earl Grey, hot" .

Bolding mine.

Just because there is a lot of easily accessible crap out there does not mean it is not, well, crap or something that totally disinterests you. I'm on Reddit, I like SFRPGs, and the Reddit darling of those is a thing called "Lasers and Feelings" - it isn't a game to me, at best it is a temporary time waster no more complicated than chess.

Quote from: Piestrio;897101The world would be a much better place if everyone had even a rudimentary understanding of economics.

Wouldn't help a single bit.  This is the era of ill-formed, knee-jerk, simplistic opinions, in which the standard slur for someone who puts more thought into a topic than can be expressed in a single sentence gets the "elitist" slur thrown at him.  To quote J. Mitchell Morse's eternally apt phrase, we turn off our minds for the same reason we turn out our lights at night: we want to sleep in darkness.

Quote from: jeff37923;897231Bolding mine.

Just because there is a lot of easily accessible crap out there does not mean it is not, well, crap or something that totally disinterests you. I'm on Reddit, I like SFRPGs, and the Reddit darling of those is a thing called "Lasers and Feelings" - it isn't a game to me, at best it is a temporary time waster no more complicated than chess.

Just because there's truckolads of shit, doesn't invalidate the argument. While it's true that the Internet is no stranger to "behold, here's my 1 page masterpiece" along the lines of "Teh clawring Crabe's", or "Cars Lesbians", it's also true that you might easily find games like these and more - JAGS, SW d6, Mass Effect, Final Fantasy... (Let's not discuss whether you like them, they are games and they are of at least good quality).

Unlike most of you, I really sympathize with Christopher Helton's plight. Lately I've really been enjoying napping. One might even say it's my current dream job. Why oh, why won't someone pay me a living wage for napping?

Here's a comment by the author, Chris Helton.

QuoteThere really is no "one size fits all" answer for consumers. I don't buy a lot of games because 1) as a reviewer I get a lot of stuff and 2) the things that I buy I buy to use. I used $60 as an example, because that is what I paid for the Cypher System core book at Gen Con. I've also paid $40+ each for a couple of supplements for The Strange. Was it hard to make the decision? Yes, but their books are definitely some of the best made in RPGs currently, and if you want well-made books (and I certainly do) you pay for that quality.

If I want less pricey stuff, there is a lot of really interesting material being produced by the OSR that is done via POD on Lulu.com or RPGNow that I can get for a lower price point than the MCG stuff.

So the guy who mostly doesn't buy many games because he gets them for free wants the rest of us, who don't get games for free, to pay more for games....Righhhhttt. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Orphan81;897144Last I checked the comments, I found it saddening no one seems to be referencing or even replying to Kevin Crawford's post... But then, he basically just BTFO them all, so of course they have to ignore it completely.

A few people have referenced and replied to it. Most people in the thread, though, aren't reading the whole thing.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;897201He just showed an overly self-entitlement attitude with that post, we don't know him personally.  How else are we supposed to take him?

Quote from: dragoner;897203The article is the only time I have heard of them, can't say it makes me want to read more of their stuff.

I'm simply responding to some comments about him being an "asshat", etc. Sure, many here feel he's off-base on this opinion, but he's a thoughtful writer, and passionate. Just putting it out there that I believe he's a good guy with some misplaced ideas on how (this) industry works. I imagine if he was willing and would engage this forum in debate, he would be put off with the name-calling but would be open to thoughtful counter-points.

--------------
And now a rant. *ahem*

I believe the roots of this problem start in our education system and the level of engagement we have with our children as a society. In our desperate attempt to shower the younglings in love (which I feel is important) we forgot to forge them in strength. We aren't challenging them. We are not teaching them success principles. Our education system is clearly designed to create good worker-bees and robots, not self-reliant entrepreneurs or pioneers. That is obviously generalizing, but I have to believe that people's perceptions are skewed. It's like the old circus trick they used raising elephants. At first the rope around one leg in a stake in the ground kept the little fella in place; the little guy actually was NOT strong enough to escape it. By the time that elephant grows up, they are more than capable of walking right away (rope, stake, tent and all!). But they don't. They simply believe the rope and stake are stronger than them, because during the impressionable years, they tried and tried and could not escape. They don't know any better. The level was set and they will stay on that level till the end (most of the time...).

I also blame Dale Carnegie. You can find shitty advice FROM some of the masters. Advice that no longer applies. Take "How to Win Friends and Influence People". A hallmark of the success crowd for many years as I came up in DECCA and Jr. Achievement. I actually won a scholarship to the Dale Carnegie Success Course (or some such...) as a youngster. But the basic principle of that book was simply "be nice and warm to people so they think you like them. If they believe it, you're good." These days, that shit doesn't fly anymore. Everyone can see the used-car salesman coming a mile away. We know all the bullshit lines and the charlatans and showman have an increasingly harder time pulling the wool over our eyes.

Instead what gets us is the actual demonstration of awesome. I didn't buy my Ford Escape because the commercial was cute. I drove it, hooked up my phone, punched it merging on the freeway, and took a few to get a feel for the car. I read reviews. I had a good idea of how much I liked the car before I went in and then driving it sealed the deal for me. The salesperson had fuck-all to do during that transaction except the paperwork. We don't need the song and dance. We need the results. Show us the fucking money. Show us what you got. What are you bringing? Don't sugar-coat it in your PC unicorn-hugging bullshit, just spit it out. If your shit is awesome, I'm in. If it fucking sucks, I'm out.

Look, it's simple. People buy stuff they want. Period. If they don't want your shit, it's not good enough.

Stop feeling sorry for yourself, pull your big-kid pants up and make something else!! It's not a market problem. It's not a customer problem.

It's a patience and grit problem.

WARRIOR UP and stop pissing on your shoes.

Love,

Quote from: Bren;897240Unlike most of you, I really sympathize with Christopher Helton's plight. Lately I've really been enjoying napping. One might even say it's my current dream job. Why oh, why won't someone pay me a living wage for napping?

You should have been in touch with NASA long ago.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/need-some-time-off-your-feet-nasa-paying-volunteers-18k-to-lie-in-bed-for-70-days/

Quote from: Bren;897240Unlike most of you, I really sympathize with Christopher Helton's plight. Lately I've really been enjoying napping. One might even say it's my current dream job. Why oh, why won't someone pay me a living wage for napping?

LOL!  That is a nice way of summing up my thoughts on the article too.   There are some seriously ridiculous claims being made in that thread about living wages.

Quote from: Brand55;897263You should have been in touch with NASA long ago.

Definitely a lost opportunity.