TheRPGSite

Link to the Twitter page (http://twitter.com/ennies).

WotC six gold, four silver. No surprise.

Quote from: Benoist;320761Link to the Twitter page (http://twitter.com/ennies).

WotC six gold, four silver. No surprise.

Yep, ennies judges are D&D fanboys.  No surprise.  Next year, Pathfinder will win.  No surprise.

Quote from: mhensley;320767Yep, ennies judges are D&D fanboys.  No surprise.  Next year, Pathfinder will win.  No surprise.

Ennie judges don't decide who wins.

-O

I'd be more interested if the judges were expected to play the games. It's sort of like the Oscars being judged solely by movie trailers.

Eh. I'm not concerned nor do I hold much stock on Ennies. It's like people say, it's the Oscars. Some times they get it right (Dark Knight) some time they don't.

Also they didn't shill for the art. Thank god for that. They want to give WotC best monster book and best rules...I'm willing to let that slide.

4 wins for Dark Heresy.

I think that's pretty rad.

Yeah it's pretty good and KQ got some nods as well. (Always a plus.) GR's A Song of Ice and Fire got some love too. Paizo might have blown away for their RPG, but they still got some wins under their belt.

Swords & Wizardry took a silver huzzah!

So Starblazer Adventures, by far the best game nominated this year, didn't win a single ENnie?

RPGpundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;320829So Starblazer Adventures, by far the best game nominated this year, didn't win a single ENnie?

RPGpundit

Does it even qualify. The book was just released last month, wasn't it?

Its one of those things where being nominated is the real prize.

Once you get past the judges, then it turns into the People's Choice awards and the biggest name companies are going to garner most of the popular vote.

Of course, its completely self-serving of me to think that ;)

Quote from: brettmb;320830Does it even qualify. The book was just released last month, wasn't it?

From what I understood, it was nominated for four awards.

RPGPundit

Congrats to Swords & Wizardry!  

Silver still rocks!

Quote from: obryn;320769Ennie judges don't decide who wins.

Get your facts out of here! They interfere with the hate.

Quote from: RPGPundit;320829So Starblazer Adventures, by far the best game nominated this year, didn't win a single ENnie?

That just means the voters don't share your tastes. They disagree that it's "by far the best game." Shouldn't be surprising, really.

It's not about the winners, it's about the nominees. It's a straight up popularity vote to win, but to be selected is a sign of quality, and I'd encourage everyone out there at GenCon to take that nominee list and go shopping.

Quote from: RPGPundit;320837From what I understood, it was nominated for four awards.

RPGPundit

Yes, but how if it wasn't available during the voting period?

Quote from: Fifth Element;320892That just means the voters don't share your tastes. They disagree that it's "by far the best game." Shouldn't be surprising, really.

No, it should be surprising, on account that Starblazer Adventures is objectively the best game.

You see, you seem to be making the common mistake among relativist buttwipes that somehow objective values of quality are subjective "Tastes". They are not.

RPGPundit

Quote from: brettmb;320927Yes, but how if it wasn't available during the voting period?

Well, that's a good question. I believe its that the PDF was released like 10 months ago, and a very very limited run was released last gencon, so the game qualified.

But that certainly might explain the problem they had. You had three crap games plus SA nominated for an award, but SA!, due to the failure of the Cubicle 7 people to actually publish a regular print run of the damn thing until sometime last month, was a game very few people had even had a chance to look at. Whereas the other three games were games many people had played; and they ended up choosing the best choice out of the three games that they'd actually gotten to see.

In a way, its a comedy of errors. In a way, its C7's own damn fault for taking a fucking YEAR to release the game after their announced release date. In another way, its a real issue with the way that the ENnies classify what games are "eligible" for which year. Does releasing a single print copy at last years gencon make you ineligible? Does releasing a PDF but not having an actual print book out make you eligible if you promise super-pinky-swear that someday you'll release an actual book?

But I think that the one thing that would have been true without a doubt is that had C7 actually released this game (for real) in September 2008, it would have swept the awards now. Or were it eligible next year, I think the same could be said.

It was a gross error of timing.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;320954You see, you seem to be making the common mistake among relativist buttwipes that somehow objective values of quality are subjective "Tastes". They are not.

Your insanity is the cutest insanity there is. I love it.

(Starblazer Adventures is pretty awesome, I'll give you that.)

Quote from: RPGPundit;320957In another way, its a real issue with the way that the ENnies classify what games are "eligible" for which year. Does releasing a single print copy at last years gencon make you ineligible? Does releasing a PDF but not having an actual print book out make you eligible if you promise super-pinky-swear that someday you'll release an actual book?

What makes a product eligible is submission by the publisher.  You can find out what it takes to submit a product at this site:  http://www.ennie-awards.com/publishers/how_to_enter.asp

I can only agree that it was terrible timing, it is a good game, and that things may have been different had it been released under different circumstances.

Can someone tell me more about Starblazer? Here, or another thread.  Sounds interesting...

Here's a link to Cubicle 7's page on it:  http://www.cubicle-7.com/starblazer.htm

Mouse Guard won silver for Product of the Year.  Sweet! Loving that game so far (only about a third of the way through reading it).  Meshes well with the graphic novels.

I think the answer would for theRPGsite.com to havbe its own self indulgent nomination and award ceremonies.

To be honest, I couldnt give a toss re: the Ennies, Im doing my own thing anyway.

I dig that Benoist wanted to discuss things and all, so I am not bagging on that, but my question is:  Why do people think the ENNies are relevant?  I never got that.

Quote from: StormBringer;321253I dig that Benoist wanted to discuss things and all, so I am not bagging on that, but my question is:  Why do people think the ENNies are relevant?  I never got that.

It was relevant when there was a thriving OGL market and ENWorld acted as the hub of all d20 convergences, for sure. Also, the Ennies at the time contrasted with the Origins awards which were always criticized as rigged-insider pats on the back with not much relevance to the general gaming public. So at some point, from my POV, they certainly were more relevant than they appear to be now.

ENWord's support of 4e and WotC makes it less and less relevant on the OGL front, IMO. Or rather, all ghettos compared, it makes ENWorld now about as relevant to OGL products and general gaming as RPGnet is relevant to d20 games.

As for the lack of relevance to the general gaming public, I think the clique-ish, "better than thou" attitude of some of ENWorld and CM's members is taking care of it much faster than any critic ever could.

Quixotically, I don't think they are relevant, but I'm still a bit annoyed that a quickstart won best free game.

I don't think quickstarts should be eligible for that prize, they're not full games.

Well done S&W though.

There's nothing at all relevant about them, apart from making a product look good when you want to sell it. They mean absolutely nothing since it is both agenda driven and a popular vote.

They're relevant because they're given away at GenCon and they get game designers some praise.

It might sound sad to say, but that is why designers care so much about awards. Recognition and praise.

We aren't driving gold-plated cadillacs, so a little pat on the back is enough lol.

As for why the Ennies are more relevant than other awards, I think it's a function of them being better than the Origin Awards, which are terrible.

Quote from: Benoist;321254ENWord's support of 4e and WotC makes it less and less relevant on the OGL front, IMO. Or rather, all ghettos compared, it makes ENWorld now about as relevant to OGL products and general gaming as RPGnet is relevant to d20 games.

As for the lack of relevance to the general gaming public, I think the clique-ish, "better than thou" attitude of some of ENWorld and CM's members is taking care of it much faster than any critic ever could.

What support of 4e and WOTC do you think EnWorld and CM offers?

Quote from: Mistwell;321264What support of 4e and WOTC do you think EnWorld and CM offers?

A vast amount of moral support at the very least, in the form of sucking up to any and all WotC employees, shutting down any criticism of fourth edition and its design tenets, the overall policital correctness of the place to stop conversations, then the clique-ishness of CM to shut down unmoderated conversations. Etc. Ad nauseam.

Look, dude. We've been over this before and I know you're just asking to start arguing about it.

I'm only giving you the courtesy of answering your post so as to not let you completely in the dark, but now, I just won't address any of your "questions" and "remarks" about ENWorld, because you clearly have a horse in this race. I'm just tired of your constant shilling.

So... I just won't bother: you're right.
You win. Have fun bragging about it on the Asshatery thread of CM.

Just so you know, I won't be answering any of your provocations on this thread in the future. Thank you.

Quote from: Benoist;321267A vast amount of moral support at the very least, in the form of sucking up to any and all WotC employees, shutting down any criticism of fourth edition and its design tenets, the overall policital correctness of the place to stop conversations, then the clique-ishness of CM to shut down unmoderated conversations. Etc. Ad nauseam.

Look, dude. We've been over this before and I know you're just asking to start arguing about it.

I'm only giving you the courtesy of answering your post so as to not let you completely in the dark, but now, I just won't address any of your "questions" and "remarks" about ENWorld, because you clearly have a horse in this race. I'm just tired of your constant shilling.

So... I just won't bother: you're right.
You win. Have fun bragging about it on the Asshatery thread of CM.

Just so you know, I won't be answering any of your provocations on this thread in the future. Thank you.

Are you the French Canadian user formerly known as Odhanan?

Quote from: Mistwell;321271Are you the French Canadian user formerly known as Odhanan?

I am (though I must say to jdrakeh, I am not French Canadian, but a Frenchman through and through).
I am also aware the point was just raised on CM.
You do know there are PMs for that, right?

Quote from: Benoist;321274I am (though I must say to jdrakeh, I am not French Canadian, but a Frenchman through and through).
I am also aware the point was just raised on CM.
You do know there are PMs for that, right?

I didn't know it was a private matter.

Whatever cliquishness you think there is at CM, you're invited into the clique.  If you've felt unwelcome at CM, I'm sorry about that.

Quote from: Mistwell;321277I didn't know it was a private matter.

Whatever cliquishness you think there is at CM, you're invited into the clique.  If you've felt unwelcome at CM, I'm sorry about that.

It's alright. I answered, didn't I?
I'm not interested in being part of CM at all. I would surely end up being poor company there. At least, with me on this forum, you still have the option of ignoring me without spoiling any fun on the Asshatery thread. Thank you for the offer, though.

Quote from: Benoist;321278It's alright. I answered, didn't I?
I'm not interested in being part of CM at all. I would surely end up being poor company there. At least, with me on this forum, you still have the option of ignoring me without spoiling any fun on the Asshatery thread. Thank you for the offer, though.

OK, fair enough.

Starblazer Adventures was being sold at last GenCon (at least that's where I got it), although I don't know how that kind of pre-release falls with regard to the ENnies eligibility timing. And I admit, I was pulling for it too.

I was glad to see the Silver for Swords and Wizardry, though.

I'm just going to stay out of the debate about how meaningful the awards are, since I find my own Gold very meaningful to me.  I do find an apt comparison between the Origins Awards with the Oscars or Hugos (with the focus on designers and the vote among Origins attendees) and the ENnies and the People's Choice Awards (with the public voting) and those focuses will skew perspectives.

I will note, however, the statement from several speakers (I think the WotC rep was even one of them, but I may not be remembering correctly; I'm pretty sure Peter Adkison was, at any rate) praising the breadth of systems represented in the nominations, and I have to agree that this is a very good thing. Even with WotC's relative dominance, a number of others made a respectable showing (Dark Heresy, Song of Ice and Fire, Mouse Guard, and so on), and the nominations were a joy to see, and heartwrenching to vote on.

Eh.  D&D always seems to clean house at these award things if gamers get to vote on them.

D&D owns RPGs.
Magic owns CCGs.
Warhammer 40K owns minis gaming.

Its just how it is.  They have the most active playerbases in their respective genres and if they do a product eligible for a vote they are gonna garner more votes than anyone else just by sheer popularity.

Its better to just look at what is nominated as others have mentioned and not put too much weight into it.

Much like any other award winner its really nothing big anyhow.  Some folks like it, others don't.  It may be good, it might be ass.  

But I have never really seen any nerd product (or even non nerd product) award winner get too much of a boost from winning an award.  

If you hate rap/hip hop and Hip Hop Album X wins the best album Grammy you still probably won't buy it or care.  Maybe a bit spergy if you hate rap/hip hop that much perhaps.

Consumer vote awards usually just have already massively popular things winning.  

Heck I bet in this case many Ennie voters never even played or bought anything outside of 4th ed D&D/WotC products.

I think WotC sucks eggs mind you, but they have the rights to do a few games I like.  (Such as Heroscape which wouldn't have anything recent if it wasn't for them, though where Marvelscape boosters or post Expansion 9 product is nobody knows.  And SW Minis is a good bit of fun even if I quit buying boosters.  I like the new terrain sets and want all 4 not that the game does well enough for most stores to stock it.  And their deal to give away the SW Minis Clone Wars starters if you buy X dollars in product was a dang smart move.  Magic players easily drop that much coin on your average week.  Hell, buy a Fat Pack get SW Minis Starter.  Solid idea.  Their Dungeon Tiles are one of the few genuinely GOOD consistent deals in gaming.  10 bucks for 4 pages of double sided hard cardboard gaming tiles.  Want more?  Printer/Scanner/Copiers are cheap as chips now and even Color Lasers are only around a half a gee now.)

Oh well.  Because of board comments here and there I want to look into Mouse Guard both the RPG AND the comic which looks lovely, almost a darker heroic take on that old Redwall novel series.

Quote from: Balbinus;321255Quixotically, I don't think they are relevant, but I'm still a bit annoyed that a quickstart won best free game.

I don't think quickstarts should be eligible for that prize, they're not full games.

Well done S&W though.

I agree.  It's irritating that a piece of crippleware could beat out a full-fledged game.

Kudos to Swords & Wizardry nonetheless!

Quote from: tashkal;321332Starblazer Adventures was being sold at last GenCon (at least that's where I got it), although I don't know how that kind of pre-release falls with regard to the ENnies eligibility timing. And I admit, I was pulling for it too.

You have to keep in mind the final voting is the people's choice voting. Smaller (in some sense...) titles with little market penetration have a disadvantage when it comes to the final vote.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;321450You have to keep in mind the final voting is the people's choice voting. Smaller (in some sense...) titles with little market penetration have a disadvantage when it comes to the final vote.

Oh, I know; in truth, this is one of the things I worried about with the podcast award.

On the quickstarts in the Free Product category, I'm on the fence. I looked back to see how prior years nominations went, and was reminded that a year or two back a nomination went to Black Industries' web site, and past winners have included Portable Hole Full of Beer and the Game Mechanics' initiative cards, so they clearly don't limit "product" to games. I do personally feel that full games in the category should have an advantage, for obvious reasons, but I don't want to denegrate quickstarts entirely, since they're basically short adventures meant to teach the basics of the game they're from, and they're not necessarily just dash-off crap-fests. So maybe Best Adventure? Do enough of these get made to justify their own category? I don't know.

Quote from: tashkal;321458and was reminded that a year or two back a nomination went to Black Industries' web site,

and it's still a mystery why it didn't win.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck;320833Its one of those things where being nominated is the real prize.

Once you get past the judges, then it turns into the People's Choice awards and the biggest name companies are going to garner most of the popular vote.

Of course, its completely self-serving of me to think that ;)

No, I think that's valid.

The judges had 41 different systems entered this year - about 26,000 pages in close to 300 products. I'm really glad to see it getting away from d20 and embracing the indie games. I think the nominations do an awfully good job of separating the wheat from the chaff and highlighting the best books of the past year. I also think the top ten in each category would be almost as useful as a shopping list, especially in the Best Game category.

Oh, and why the hell aren't people talking about how damn sexy that master of ceremonies was*? That's the real news. Hmmph.

 - Piratecat (3 or 4-time judge, and ENnies MC, for those keeping track of such things)

* Don't answer that.

Quote from: One Horse Town;321460and it's still a mystery why it didn't win.

Cause not enough people voted for it. Remember: judges nominate the top 5, and then it's a fan-based popularity contest. Which is cool, as it encourages community-building, but not necessarily indicative of which of those five products is "best."

Quote from: Captain Rufus;321341Oh well.  Because of board comments here and there I want to look into Mouse Guard both the RPG AND the comic which looks lovely, almost a darker heroic take on that old Redwall novel series.

And that's why the ENnies are relevant.

Quote from: BlackFrancis;321722And that's why the ENnies are relevant.

"Because of board comments here and there..."

I recall someone mentioning Mouse Guard here and at tBP well before the nominations for the ENnies were even being considered this year.

Quote from: Piratecat;321581Cause not enough people voted for it. Remember: judges nominate the top 5, and then it's a fan-based popularity contest. Which is cool, as it encourages community-building, but not necessarily indicative of which of those five products is "best."

The "Judges" in question being nothing more than glorified fans selected by the same popularity-contest; so its not like the judges choices are going to be anything other than popularity contests to begin with. That's why consistently utter CRAP has been nominated by your wise council of judges and why incredibly good games have often failed to be nominated.

If the prize were determined by the judges instead of the vote, you'd just have a popularity contest of a handful of elites rather than a larger popularity contest. Its the same thing.

RPGPundit

So let's ask - and while I know we differ on a lot of these points, I'm curious about your opinion. How would you select judges? What makes a judge qualified?

I think ennie's judges should be selected with a round robin style hot dog eating contest. that would provide us with a more accurate demographic representation.

Quote from: BlackFrancis;321722And that's why the ENnies are relevant.

Which is why the Origins awards are more relevant.  Mouse Guard rightly won rpg of the year there.

Quote from: Aos;321839I think ennie's judges should be selected with a round robin style hot dog eating contest...

Dammit, the urge to say "your mom says hi" is almost overwhelming.

If my mom entered, the race would be for second place.

Quote from: Benoist;321274...I am not French Canadian, but a Frenchman through and through...

You might get a kick out of this (http://exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=7061).

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;322293You might get a kick out of this (http://exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=7061).

That's awesome. Thanks for the link. :)

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;322293You might get a kick out of this (http://exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=7061).

That's pretty fucking rad.

Pretty much everything "Gary Brecher" the War Nerd writes is worth reading, for one reason or another.  ("Gary Brecher" is a pen name/persona that was mysterious for a long time, but was eventually revealed to be John Dolan, an English poet and professor at the University of Victora -- if you can believe that…)